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On Pedro Alvarez: Let's Calm Down, People

Don't get me wrong here--if Pedro Alvarez were called up to the Pirates today, I wouldn't mind. But I'm not sure we need to wait with bated breath:

Down the order and throughout the clubhouse, the Pirates are waiting for Pedro Alvarez's arrival.

Almost as eagerly as their long-suffering fan base.

The clock is down to minutes, hours, days. Alvarez could appear in a Pirates uniform, at third base, in the order directly behind Tabata, Walker and McCutchen or somewhere thereafter, maybe at No. 5. It could happen as early as Friday in an interleague series opener against the Cleveland Indians or perhaps even the set starting today against the Chicago White Sox. It could happen next week before a nine-day road trip.

It will happen.

That's pouring it on a bit thick, isn't it? I don't want to dampen the enthusiasm, because I'm psyched about Pedro too, but I worry that we're going to be disappointed if we expect too much. He should help--any halfway competent ballplayer would--but he isn't a savior. John Russell, of all people, gets it right:

"The biggest thing people need to realize, he's going to have to continue to make adjustments when he gets here. It's not like he's going to step in and be a 30 home run guy from the start."

Maybe he will, but probably not. Alvarez struggled for a while after starting the season with Indianapolis, and he also struggled a bit in his first exposure to pro ball, with Lynchburg. He still has 67 strikeouts in 239 at bats in Indianapolis and will probably struggle some to hit for a high average. And his defense has never been particularly good.

Alvarez is the best prospect to come through the Pirates' system in a while, and he'll probably be a very good player, hopefully a star. His performance at Indianapolis has been excellent, particularly in the last few weeks. But if the Pirates want to keep him at Indianapolis another week or two to make sure he can sustain that production, or if they want to continue to work with him on his strikeout issues, I don't see any problem with that. 

Alvarez is important, but the exact date of his callup isn't an issue of grand cosmic significance. The new column by Ron Cook suggests that Neal Huntington should promote Alvarez to save his (Huntington's) job, yet also manages to imply that Huntington isn't promoting Alvarez because of Huntington's selfish fear that he will lose his job if Alvarez flops.

Leaving aside for now the question of whether Huntington's job is actually in jeopardy, Cook is making a mountain out of a molehill. The exact date of the promotion of Pedro Alvarez--whether it's June 15, or July 15, or maybe even some religious holiday or something--really has no bearing on the results of Huntington's trades, or his failure to sign Miguel Sano. (Seriously, that's in the article.) The probable reasons Alvarez is still in the minors are that he struggled to start the year, that he still strikes out a lot, and that Huntington and Kyle Stark are cautious about promotions, as they should be. That's all. Let's not freak out about it.

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I doubt...

he gets called up for the White Sox series. And if he’s coming for the Indians…it will get announced Wednesday (an off day for Indy). Frankly…I’d say it will be a whole lot closer to the All Star Break…if then.

by Thunder on Jun 15, 2010 2:43 AM EDT reply actions  

I still think we should wait

If he flops, we’re screwed, simple enough. I’m all for minimizing that possibility by having him work on things in the minors. It’s not like he’s a perfect player with nothing to work on down there.

by thecheeseisblue on Jun 15, 2010 2:51 AM EDT reply actions  

i disagree

of course it depends on how important his issues are, but in general assuming they are down to just fine-tuning things, and he s going to be up in July anyway, then if he’s going to stay down, that should be because he has things that need to be ironed out in the minors and can be ironed out in a short time. If not, then we might as well have him up, let him go through his growing pains, and start adjusting.

by BurgherKing on Jun 15, 2010 3:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

If he flops, we’re screwed, simple enough

I mean, he might put up an average of 223, like Bobby Bonds’s kid did. That would mean Alvarez is a bum.

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Jun 15, 2010 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

take the skirt off and let him play. Trying to guess how he will react to some initial failure is silly. He did seem to get over it at AAA last year.

by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 15, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Alvarez Promotion

Just thinking another part of the promotion hold is what to do with the 25 man roster. The obvious thing to do would be to release Aki, but that costs $4.5 million….not likely for a Nutting run business. Church would be a cheaper release, but I feel he has value in a pinch hit role. LaRoche is horrible, perhaps worse than his brother. He’s a Huntington guy, so that’s unlikely.

Maybe Huntington is working on trade offers. He’s not gonna get any worth while player in return, but he has to create room somewhere.

by Chucksberries on Jun 15, 2010 7:27 AM EDT reply actions  

What's the difference w/ Iwamura?

They’re already paying $4.5M for him to sit on the bench. What’s the difference if they cut him? Either way, they’re paying him that money now to not play. I don’t see what the big deal is in cutting Aki.

by mspirate on Jun 15, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Aki trade was NH’s baby to begin with. Cutting him now would be NH admitting to a 4.5 million dollar mistake…….barely over 2 months into the season. NH would have to answer to Nutting, and that could end with him losing his job…….just as Matt Morris was the straw that broke Littlefield’s back.

by Chucksberries on Jun 15, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nutting can read the paper

He already knows that Aki’s hitting .180 and has been benched, so if he were inclined to fire Huntington over that particular trade, he already has reason to do so. Whether he gets cut or sits on the bench the rest of the year, the trade was a bad one and everyone, including Nutting, already knows it.

by maguro on Jun 15, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nutting’s too cheap to buy the paper.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

True

But he can go down to the library and look up the averages on Yahoo! Sports, right?

by maguro on Jun 15, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

oh yeah

internet’s free at the library and starbucks

by BurgherKing on Jun 15, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do not doubt

the best management team in baseball, maybe all sports! We have a great ball park, most of the time you get something extra for buying a ticket and you get to see Major League Baseball…a true great value. Compare prices and what you get with the other pro sports teams in town. No ticket increase for 9 years. You can not beat what is offered!

by Nutting on Jun 15, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Matt Morris deal got Littlefield fired...

…because Littlefield’s record with the team was an uninterrupted five-year parade of clownish incompetence.

One straw isn’t going to break a camel’s back in and of itself.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

NH would have to answer to Nutting, and that could end with him losing his job

It’s stupid theories like this about NHs job situation that are exactly why they should have renewed his contract before the draft. NH took an extremely long term view in this draft, he either believes he is coming back or is acting like it (which implies amazing integrity).

Yinzers uber alles

by BostonBuc on Jun 15, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

True enough

But it’s not as if there was plausible short-term help. I guess, if you squint just so, Pomeranz or Sale, but there was really no one available in the draft who would project to help the team in any kind of timeframe that would help an at-risk NH. The players who are good enough to make a difference are far away, and the players who are close enough (maybe) to arrive soon won’t help much (so maybe Pomeranz is a #3 starter in late 2012 – big whoop).

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, there was plausible short-term help.

Shorter term than a bunch of raw 18-year-old pitchers, anyway.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

my point exactly

18 year old pitchers are the longest term scenario. College pitchers and bats would have been a much shorter time line, generally speaking.

Yinzers uber alles

by BostonBuc on Jun 15, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess

I was thinking in terms of Cook’s alarmism, which would imply that he needs to help himself this year, or at the very latest next spring (ie, with a strong start). But yeah, for NH’s overall prospects, which probably rely on competing (let’s say, in the Wild Card hunt well into September) no later than 2012, he could have probably drafted more selfishly. But even the closest players in the MLB draft are pretty far away – as I say, what’s a Pomeranz worth in the short term – maybe a win or two in 2012?

I don’t think NH could have drafted anyone to save his job if his job is to be decided within the next 26 months.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

If every GM's job was jeopardy for a $4.5M mistake, every GM would be fired.

Seriously, practically every yinzer before the season was pointing to the “Seattle model” as the path that the Pirates should be following this year. Jack Z was held up as the model GM that cared enough to win and went all out to get it done.

I don’t hear that so much anymore.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

At this point, Jack Z could possibly be considered one of the worst GMs. He thought Casey Kotchman and age-97 Ken Griffey was a great middle of the order to make the playoffs. We brought in some crap, but at least it was clearly for rebuilding instead of contending (like trading for Cliff Lee).

by Adam Reynolds on Jun 15, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

The obvious thing to do would be to release Aki, but that costs $4.5 million….not likely for a Nutting run business.

Matt Morris says hi.

by matskralc on Jun 15, 2010 7:39 AM EDT reply actions  

What are the chances that Huntington's job is on the line?

0, 0<, -1,000,000,000<

Thanks to McClatchy and his GMs, the Pirates faced a 5-10 year rebuilding program when Coonelly came to town. Has this changed? No. Who, then, would expect a quick reversal of the quality of the teams the FO puts on the field in Pittsburgh? No one.

5-10 years. That’s the rational plan.

Steve Z

by steve_z on Jun 15, 2010 7:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Oh, and the fact that...

…a moron like Ron Cook believes Huntington has been a terrible GM is a kind of evidence that Huntington has been an adequate if not better than adequate GM.

Generally speaking: Sports journalism: An affirmative action program for the congenitally stupid; for every competent journalist who writes about sports there are many incompetents who write about sports.

Steve Z

by steve_z on Jun 15, 2010 7:48 AM EDT reply actions  

God, Ron Cook is a moron....

Should be the name of a website or something. But then Bob Smiwhatever will probably get jealous.

by Seven_Patch on Jun 15, 2010 8:15 AM EDT reply actions  

Nice

It would be far too easy to make fun of those two though.

by Seven_Patch on Jun 15, 2010 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

What about Collier?

Pirates, Vikings, Hokies. I'm used to heartbreak. At least I have the Penguins....

"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-The Great One

by blackjackfishtaco on Jun 15, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

At this point...

…I hope that Pedro gets called up as soon as is humanly possible, just so we can stop talking about when he’s going to get called up.

Jesus Christ.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 8:28 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Of course...

…then we’ll just move on to the “Oh my god why isn’t he hitting we’re all doomed!” discussion. So really, I guess I’m stuck either way.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 8:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Perhaps

They could trade him.

I bet Jermaine Dye is available.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not always a Ron Cook fan......

by any means,but I think much of what he outlines about NH in that column is true.

by havildar on Jun 15, 2010 8:34 AM EDT reply actions  

Which part exactly? Here are the trades...You tell me.

1. Cedeno+Clement > Jack Wilson … Pirates are better for this trade.

2. 3 pitching prospects = Ian Snell … Probably nothing, at least some hope for the future.

3. Ohlie+Karstens+Tabata > Nady+Marte … Pirates are better for this trade.

4. Morton+Gorkys+Locke = McLouth … Trade has been a bust for both teams.

5. LaRoche+Morris, etc ? Jason Bay … If Morris doesn’t pan out, will be bad, if he does will be good.

6. Diaz+Strickland = Adam LaRoche … Lefty McThump had little value at the time

7. Hart+Ascanio < Gorzo+Grabow … Right now this looks to be NH’s worst trade.

8. Iwamura = Jesse Chavez … Neither player has done well. Chavez might do something later.

9. Tim Alderson ? Freddy Sanchez … Walker’s emergence means Freddy is not needed and Alderson still might be good in the future. NH was lucky to get this deal with Sanchez’s health and contract issues.
 
-——————

These are the main trades.

By my count, there’s only one trade where the Pirates would have been better TODAY if it were not made, and that is Gorzo/Grabow for Hart/Ascanio. Grabow has been bad, but Gorzo has been better than the injured Ascanio and Hart.

There were 4 trades that have been neither particularly helpful nor harmful.

There is one trade that is at least a small winner, and one trade that is a huge winner.

And as for the Bay trade…well, think about this. Kyle Drabek was the best piece Toronto got for Roy Halladay.

Drabek in AA: 64 Ks, 36 BBs, 3.24 ERA in 77 innings
Morris in AA: 27 Ks, 7 BBs, 2.33 ERA in 27 innings

Morris is less than 9 months older than Drabek.

You could certainly say that Morris could be as good a prospect now as Kyle Drabek.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

morris drabek

thats interesting… it ll be interesting to track this one… as of now, it doesnt hold much weight because of sample size, but it’s good thing to note.

by BurgherKing on Jun 15, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

1 K per inning so far. SSS…but not looking too shabby.

Also, in his 5 outings, he has more Ks than innings in 4 of them, and at least 3 times the Ks to BBs in every single outing.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

The main thing to realize when looking at these trades is...

True, Huntington has not lucked out and cobbled together a winning team from paper clips and duct tape. But, his trades have not been the disasters that they have been portrayed as. He has actually made the Pirates better through the trades, just not as much as everyone hoped.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Kyle Drabek point is solid.

Cedeno/Wilson is similar to Milledge/Morgan to me. The guy we got is doing better than the guy we traded, but it’s still pretty bad. It’s hard to really call those acquisitions wins for the Pirates in the sense of acquiring Tabata or Morris (which are what I’d call the only real trade wins at this point since they are doing very well at AA or better)

by Adam Reynolds on Jun 15, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah, I forgot about Morgan/Milledge.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice points Mark

As far as Morgan/Burnett for Milledge/Hanrahan I would say it’s a wash or favors the Pirates. I like Hanrahan over Burnett and taking a chance on Milledge was worth it. Morgan was a speedy Centerfielder with no power but the Bucs already had a speedy Centerfielder that does have some power. Sure Morgan could play left but his power numbers don’t make it worth it and the Bucs have Tabata who could still develop power over the next few years.

by Seven_Patch on Jun 15, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

In a nutshell, the Pirates traded Jason Bay and Freddy Sanchez for Jose Tabata and Bryan Morris.

Also, they basically let go of Jose Bautista and Matt Capps for very little, and picked up Garrett Jones and Evan Meek for very little.

Given the players acquired have more years of control, it’s a good transaction record overall. Some of the other players in the deals could pan out late, as well.

by Adam Reynolds on Jun 15, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good points.

Too bad so many focus on the negative they fail to see all the good NH is doing, I think taking good drafting too lightly is a huge mistake.

by Seven_Patch on Jun 15, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great points.

Complaining about losing Jose Bautista is similar to any Twins fans complaining they don’t have Garrett Jones. Right now, Jones is hitting better than Delmon Young, Michael Cuddyer, Jason Kubel and Denard Span.

Wouldn’t the Twins be better if Garrett Jones were doing his thing in Minnesota and the Twins still had Garza?

Oh my goodness!! How can a team like the Twins afford such mistakes?

And that’s the dumb thing about columns like Cooks…
There is no team that “can’t afford to make a mistake”.

All teams make mistakes. It’s inevitable that some things do not go your way.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trades

NH’s record for trades is mixed.

I hated several of the deals.

At the same time, he made some good ones. And remember, he wasn’t trading Sabathia.

by Bernie6 on Jun 15, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

He'd better not trade Sabathia!

I didn’t even realize he was on the roster.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meaning ...

Bay was as close to an elite talent as you could get.

With CC, any of us could have made the trade.

NH was trying to get people to trade for Adam LaRoche and Jack Wilson.

by Bernie6 on Jun 15, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

JRoth

I know. Too bad, isn’t it?

by Bernie6 on Jun 15, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meaning ...

Too bad the Pirates didn’t have CC for a while.

by Bernie6 on Jun 15, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not being on the roster...

…is an excellent reason to trade him.

We should see whether anybody wants the Brooklyn Bridge, while we’re at it.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Braves send Chavez to AAA
M’s DFA Snell.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 15, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wilson’s lived on the DL this season, and been worse than Cedeno with the bat this season when he hasn’t been injured.

"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West

by Blicks on Jun 17, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Alvarez/Cook

Yes, it is time to promote Alvarez. I’d look at the buzz a different way. It means people care about baseball.

As for Ron Cook, he is a fool. I remember one time I sent him a nice e-mail about a factual error he made. Instead of thanking me for it, he sent me a blistering e-mail.

Just not a bright guy. I have no idea why he’s still employed.

by Bernie6 on Jun 15, 2010 9:03 AM EDT reply actions  

I've mentioned this before...

…but a former co-worker of mine used to work with Ron Cook at an earlier job. He said that Cook knew basically nothing about sports, and was always getting stumped about really simple things, like which player played which sport, or which team was located in which city.

From his writing, I have no trouble believing it.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can't figure out...

If Cook is watching the same team and his criticism is very vague to say the least. At one point he calls the team terrible

It’s hard to remember a worse Pirates lineup, the pitching is the second worst in baseball and the defense significantly has worsened.

and then starts rattling off the players that he thinks are good which amounts to probably half the team currently.

In many ways, the Pirates’ season is over again, long before the Fourth of July. But wouldn’t it be fun to see what Alvarez could do with future star Andrew McCutchen and the other young guys that Huntington has finally, seemingly reluctantly, brought up? Tabata. Neil Walker. Brad Lincoln. Steve Pearce once he is healthy again. Who knows? Maybe they could put a little something good together.

So it’s the worst line-up and yet adding one Player like Alvarez is gonna make it better? yeesh!

Yes I think Huntington needs to perhaps take a look at their Major league talent evaluations because in the past 2 years it hasn’t been very good. But as for drafting amateurs I think NH’s been spot on.

Also, I think NH’s Contract should be renewed FWIW and Alvarez should come up when NH feels that Alvarez is ready. Not when other people (Fans and News Media) feel he should come up. Because DL had that “gun to his head” and look at the boneheaded move he tried to make with Matt Morris.

by lfhlaw on Jun 15, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Post-Gazette

As a former journalist, I also know people who work with Ron.

I’ve even had interactions with him.

He really couldn’t make a living as a beat writer. He’s just not a good reporter.

His writing is mediocre. I don’t understand why the Post-Gazette keeps him. His opinion pieces are terrible.

Moreover, I posted this earlier. I sent him an e-mail once about a factual error in a column. I got the nastiest e-mail from him.

I guess you missed that day at journalism school, Ron. But you are supposed to get things right. Even in opinion pieces.

And when people correct you, you thank them.

Just don’t read his columns and if he makes mistakes, copy his editor on it.

by Bernie6 on Jun 15, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point

At least fans want someone to care about and believe in.

by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 15, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

most journos are thin-skinned a-holes

I’ve found DK to be an exception. I sent him a rather intemperate note once (me being the a-hole) and he responded in a very polite and businesslike manner. That alone made me respect him. The response you noted from Cook is much more the norm.

I’ve also found Chuck Finder to be reasonable.

by mocasdad on Jun 15, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dejan is

a beat writer, I don’t know what Finder is but he is pathetic. Cook writes opinions

by Nutting on Jun 15, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

despite your opinion of finder

He’s been professional in his email correspondence with me. That’s all I was posting about, in both his case and that of DK. Others can form their own opinions of their professional acumen.

by mocasdad on Jun 15, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

My Guess is...

that Pedro comes up immediately after the ASB. That begins a 10 game homestand against HOU, MIL and SD.

The first game out of hte break is Friday 7/16 and would be a golden opportunity to get a couple of days press for ticket sales for the weekend set against a team that is nearly as anemic as the Buccos.

by Mick Kraut on Jun 15, 2010 9:26 AM EDT reply actions  

This is probably a good point.

They’re going to want to get as much milk as possible from the cash cow.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t see them waiting THAT long.

by mspirate on Jun 15, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can

His strikeout rate and other things can easily be used to justify waiting a few more weeks. There is some serious money to be made on that homestand, and it wouldn’t kill him to spend a few more weeks there. In the scene of things, it isn’t that long. You’d think a pennant depended on his imminent arrival. When he does get here, let’s remember that Muke Schmidt hit .180 and change in 1973, Aramis Ramirez was nearly booed out of town, and that this kid is a human being, not a savior.

by RichieHebner on Jun 15, 2010 11:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Biggest reason

To expect him sooner is that NH has implied that he’s coming here sooner.

I haven’t expected him this soon – not since his weak start in April – but the last week or so has had strong buzz that he’s coming, and NH has done nothing to quash it. All it would take would be, in his Sunday interview, a firm “we don’t think he’s ready just yet,” with no equivocation. Instead we get, “well, we were thinking closer to July, but now he’s pushing the issue….” WTF is this, some Cheers/Frasier will-they-or-won’t-they multiseason teaser?

If the date’s in July, he doesn’t have to tell us what it is now (I’m sure they don’t have a date if it’s more than 2 weeks away). But if it’s not in the next week or two – if they don’t have a date in mind – then come out and say it. For Pete’s sake, the Pirates sent some poor schmuck to the Indy game last night* because they thought the odds were good they’d get the news. Now, that’s the P-G’s choice, but my point is that it’s a pretty clear indicator that the FO is jerking everyone around on this point. Regardless of the baseball merits (and I’m so fucking sure that, in 2 more weeks, Pedro will no longer have a high K rate; yup, just 12 more games at AAA, and that tendency will vanish), this is just stupid, stupid business.

  • incidentally, Crotta’s not looked great at AAA, has he?

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

WTF is this, some Cheers/Frasier will-they-or-won’t-they multiseason teaser?

Ha! Very nice.

by CptnAwesome on Jun 15, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes, but the buzz will die down by that point, which directly affects the ticket sales.

by BuccoBrigade on Jun 15, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I call bullshit on that...

If he comes up and plays well people will be clamoring to see him play for a while.

by Slick1 on Jun 15, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

In anticipation of Pedro

Pirates fans should do a quick check of how recently promoted top prospects are doing, including Smoak (5 k’s in 5 ab’s in Sunday’s game and batting .213 (though drawing walks); this is with a very small sample size though), Wieters (OPS of .641 despite much love from PECOTA), and Gordan Beckham (OPS of .538 for the future “face of the White Sox” to quote at least one expert). Of course there are players like McCutchen, Braun, and Longoria who make a seamless transition, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

by TNbucs on Jun 15, 2010 9:42 AM EDT reply actions  

and then there's

Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Chipper Jones, Vladimir Guerrero just from the 90s. I wont even go into the other decads of players who came up and played excellent during their first season.

There were just as many that needed one or two seasons before becoming a star. I don’t see how its mutually exclusive that if he comes up and struggles he will be doomed.

by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 15, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think he's saying that Pedro's doomed if he struggles.

Indeed, I think he’s trying to say the opposite: that it’s better for fans to have low expectations and be pleasantly surprised than to expect too much of him and have him branded a failure in the public eye because he had a slow first month.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Low expectations, indeed.

I think we can agree that even the most optimistic projection would not suggest Alvarez will be the next Pujols, and the past four years Pujols’ WAR averaged about 8.7 That’s for one of the best hitters many of us have ever seen.

I’m sure many of the yinzers think Pedro will make a 15- or 20-win difference to the Pirates. I’m saying if he came up today and put up 3 WAR the rest of the season and 6 next year that would be damn impressive. He’d be one of the best hitters in baseball. And we’d go from 60 wins to 66.

by bucdaddy on Jun 15, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

anyone think that

Pedro himself is affected by the “will he or won’t he be called up anyday now”?

He’s 1 for his last 13 the past 3 games.

by BadAndy on Jun 15, 2010 9:57 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I do, personally.

How can you not if you’re him? You’ve got the pressure of an entire city on your shoulders and people are constantly talking about your promotion to help turn the franchise around. Management just needs to tell him exactly when he’s gonna get promoted so that he can just go play and not worry about it.

by mspirate on Jun 15, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

He’s hit some long warning track shots. He could easily have 2 or 3 more HRs and gone 4 for 13. He has looked pretty bad K’ing on change ups from righties and one situational lefty, however.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

as someone who...

Wants to buy a ticket to see Pedro’s debut (if at home) I simply ask for at least 18 hours notice of his call up so I can arrange my schedule.

Good day.

by Uncle Nate on Jun 15, 2010 10:05 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

August 1st

sounds right to me. There is simply no need to rush this guy. He may or may not be ready. His overall season at Indy leaves reasonable doubt. Again, there is simply no compelling reason to not err on the side of caution. This club is not in contention for anything.

"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway

by SubLime on Jun 15, 2010 10:31 AM EDT reply actions  

Agree with all the comments above...

encouraging caution. But how much of this breathless anticipation stems purely from the fact that Finder wrote the article? Seriously, the man’s histrionics are pretty ridiculous. I pretty much stop reading the PG on days Dejan is off.

by Jeffasaurus on Jun 15, 2010 10:34 AM EDT reply actions  

I'll still take Finder...

…over Paul Meyer. Though the gap is definitely narrowing.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is true...

but I think the kicker for me is the massive number of run-on sentences that are barely intelligible. I usually have to re-read them a few times to figure out what the heck he’s talking about.

by Jeffasaurus on Jun 15, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

His prose

is surprisingly weak for a professional writer. And I’m not even talking about style, just technical concerns.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Call up

They may be in the process of trying to make a trade much like they did with McCutchen call up, no one knew he was coming until a trade was made.
There is no way he can fail any worse that Andy LaRoach is failing now, that hole is huge in the batting order.

by leadoff on Jun 15, 2010 10:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Who in their right mind would trade for Andy LaRoche? Like I’ve said before, Andy LaRoche wouldn’t be starting for anybody else in the Majors.

by mspirate on Jun 15, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

The O's maybe?

Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"It is better to offer no excuse than a bad one." George Washington
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan

by WVPiratesfan on Jun 15, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, you've said it before.

It wasn’t true then, and it isn’t true now, either.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's truer than it was

He’s barely starting for us. If Aki were anything but the worst position player in all of baseball, Andy would have been on the bench for 2-3 weeks by now.

I’m sure there are teams that would start him because they have less than nothing, but the days of describing him as a 2.5 WAR guy with a plus glove are receding into the past.

That said, I’ve no doubt that he’d be picked up if he became available – he certainly showed promise last year, and no one will ignore that promise in a (fairly) young guy.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

"It's truer than it was"

So now it’s merely wrong, as opposed to being ludicrous?

And you see that as an important distinction.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Should've been...

…a question mark at the end of sentence #2.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Was saying

that GJones would never, ever hit 20 HRs in 2009 merely wrong, or ludicrous?

Seriously, Vlad, sometimes you put a little too much weight behind your own pronouncements. If Andy LaRoche can barely start* for one of the 5 worst teams in baseball, that may indicate that he’s not much of a starter. “Wouldn’t be starting for anyone else” is an exaggeration, not a falsehood. Are there 10 teams that would start him every day? 5?

By WAR, he’s the 65th out of 70 players who’ve appeared at 3B this season. He’s 0.7 WAR worse than Neil Walker, who has been in the Major Leagues for about 3 weeks (obviously, mostly not at 3B). Many of the 64 players who have been more valuable and who have played 3B aren’t actually everyday 3Bs, but it strains credulity that he’s secretly better than 50 of them.

  • again, if the Bucs had anyone other than Aki and DY to man 2B, (and if Pedro weren’t due up), then Walker would be at 3B and Andy would be sitting

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Certainly on any other team, Andy’s window as an everyday player would be closing, or he would be sitting while attempting to get his stroke back. Even Aramis Ramirez has found himself in that same situation.

That’s not to say another team wouldn’t trade for Andy to see if his light would turn on for them.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Listing his aggregate ranking by WAR is misleading.

There’s relatively little functional difference between two guys separated by a few tenths of a WAR.

And of course, when you use a measure like that, you’re implicitly buying into the idea that his 2010 performance to date is an accurate reflection of his true level of ability. Which probably isn’t the case.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I said, he's 50 positions from mediocre

Are you arguing that 50 of the guys ahead of him are, in fact, so much worse that he would start over them? I wouldn’t use that data as evidence if he were middle of the pack, or a tenth or two away from top 20. But he’s not “separated by a few tenths” from anyone respectable. He’s 0.4 worse than Delwyn fucking Young. He’s 0.8 WAR behind Jhonny Peralta, who’s 36th on the ML list. He is not even close to being as good as even a poor MLB 3B.

Now, is 2010 to date his “true” talent level? Who the hell knows? But it’s not the kind of play that results in guys getting a lot of ML starts, which is, after all, what we’re discussing.

I would seriously like your list of every team that you believe would start him, every day, for the rest of the year, over whatever they have. I don’t doubt that there are teams that would. But your cocksure attitude that mspirate is plainly wrong sure suggests that you’ve got quite a list in mind. Let’s see it.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

"I would seriously like your list of every team that you believe would start him, every day, for the rest of the year, over whatever they have."

If he were to magically appear on their 40-man roster, at no cost? Sure, OK.

Probably:
Anaheim (At 3B, over the Wood/Izturis/Frandsen mess)
Cleveland (At 2B, over Valbuena, unless they want to use Peralta there and take another look at Marte at 3B)
Colorado (Either at 2B over Barmes, or at 3B with Stewart shifting to 2B)
Houston (At 3B, over Feliz)
Kansas City (At 2B, over Getz/Aviles. Probably also better than Callaspo, once you consider fielding, but 2B is the bigger hole.)
Minnesota (At 3B, over Punto/Harris)
New York-NL (At 2B, over Castillo)
San Diego (At 2B, with Eckstein moving to SS)

Possibly, but possibly not:
Atlanta (At 3B, with Chipper moving to LF? Probably depends how much they like Hinske.)
Chicago-AL (At 2B, with Beckham going back to AAA to clear his head? At 3B, with Teahen moving to LF?)
Chicago-NL (At 3B, over A-Ram?)
San Francisco (Taking the 2B/3B/OF PT that had been intended for DeRosa before he got hurt?)
Seattle (At 3B, over Lopez?)
Washington (At 2B, over Guzman?)

I don’t see why you’re making such a big deal out of a few tenths of a point of WAR. That’s, like, the difference between three hot weeks and three cold ones.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

2B

I’ll confess that I hadn’t taken 2B into account. You may be right about a number of teams taking him at 2B over what they have – you effectively double the number of candidates for clubs running an absolute zero out there.

But, again, 0.8 WAR simply isn’t “a few tenths of a win.” That’s how far Andy is from exiting a bottom-5 everyday 3B. That’s ~2.5 WAR over the season, which is how many WAR he produced last year to make him a pretty good 3B. Jose Bautista as a Pirate was much more valuable at 3B than Andy has been this year. You say it’s unrepresentative. I say that baseball players with back issues shouldn’t be presumed to be able to play healthy as everyday starters.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Jose Bautista as a Pirate was much more valuable at 3B than Andy has been this year"

Jose Bautista as a Pirate played full seasons, not three-month stratches. Sure, if you pro-rate Andy’s season-to-date over the rest of 2010, the numbers don’t look very good. But that is, as I stated earlier, buying implicitly into the idea that his performance in 2010-to-date is representative of his true level of ability. Which is a dangerous assumption. Is Ubaldo Jimenez going to win 31 games this year, allowing one run a start? He’s “on pace” to put up a 12 WAR season, after all…

Is it possible that LaRoche’s back is totally screwed? Sure. But given that the team is operating as though he’s healthy enough to play, I don’t think a state of perpetual injury should be the default assumption going forward.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually

Bautista only played one “full season” as a Pirate; otherwise, he played stretches of 2 other seasons. In fact, by the end of this year, he and LaRoche will have played a comparable number of games in a Pirates uniform (370 vs. ~340, unless Andy’s benched for good). At the moment, Andy’s at a net ~1 WAR (and headed down), while Bautista was a net 0.8.

Of course, Andy could certainly turn things around. He could, for instance, hit 18 HRs in his next 60 games and completely change perceptions of his value. But as of this moment, after 250 games as a Pirate, he doesn’t look much better than a guy we sent away in exchange for a 3rd string catcher.

Also:

I don’t think a state of perpetual injury should be the default assumption going forward.
Have you ever known anyone with back problems? They’re like hamstring problems – they don’t heal, they just get better and worse. I don’t doubt that Andy will have 25 game stretches of looking impressive again. I now doubt that he can put together 150 game stretches of looking like a league-average 3B. 2009 may have been his peak.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was a full-time player in all those seasons...

…who missed time due to injuries. If LaRoche doesn’t get injury credit in your analysis for the time he missed with back problems this year, then Bautista shouldn’t get injury credit for his medical problems, either.

Some people with back problems are crippled. Some, like Randy Johnson, win 200+ games and multiple Cy Young awards after their initial manifestation. Each case is different.

by Vlad on Jun 16, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Evidently...we have no clue of Andy's ability.

However…we do know that he’s had just about 2 full seasons with the Pirates (Aug 2008 through June 2010), and parts of 2 others with the Dodgers. In all of that time, he’s had exactly 4 months with an OPS above .685…and one of those was with the Dodgers. His career OPS is .657 as of yesterday. Yep…3 out of 15 months above .685 is real strong.

How weak is a .685 OPS?? A .685 OPS would put him ahead of 2 NL regular 3B this year (Feliz and Ramirez)…one last year (Bonifacio)…and DFL the 3 years before that.

His career WAR is 0.1.As a Pirate, it’s 0.5 Basically, he is a replacement level player. And he’s about to be replaced.

by Thunder on Jun 16, 2010 3:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Everybody loves to use his 2008 numbers...

…from when he was playing hurt.

The fact that they aren’t a fair representation of his abilty, given that he was playing hurt, never seems to enter into the discussion. I wonder why that is?

by Vlad on Jun 16, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately, if he’s hurt much of the time (as his track record shows) then a team can’t even rely on the mediocre production he would give.

by Adam Reynolds on Jun 16, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cleveland IF
Houston IF
Minnesota IF
Mets IF
San Diego IF

Atlanta OF
Giants OF
Royals OF
Orioles OF

The other targets are a bit of a stretch, IMO.

by Adam Reynolds on Jun 15, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

OF

I’m not sure that Andy’s a first choice (of what’s available) for those teams in the OF; he’s played one professional inning in the OF, and goodness knows that a career .295 wOBA doesn’t exactly play in RF. I mean, sure, he’s better than a concussed Nate McLouth, but does Atlanta really give him 80 starts out there?

My point being that there are better short term solutions for OF than LaRoche out there. I don’t doubt for a second that 20 teams would pluck him off the waiver wire, if only on a flyer, but I doubt that half of them would pick him up to start. He’s either a stopgap or a reclamation project.

Remember: about 80% of his value last year came from being a warm body at 3B: his bat was a bit below average, and his glove was half a game above, which isn’t bad, but doesn’t exactly get you a Corvette when you retire.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

"The other targets are a bit of a stretch, IMO."

What, really? I mean, you don’t think the Angels would use him at third? Brandon Wood’s a .178/.202/.275 hitter in 367 career PA, mostly due to big-time contact issues (a 9/110 career K/BB!). Kevin Frandsen’s a career UT IF. And Izturis, not particularly distinguished in his own right, is starting at shortstop with Aybar out.

You honestly think they’d rather stick with Wood/Frandsen?

by Vlad on Jun 16, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t they have Aybar, Kendrick, and Izturis for the infield? I agree that Wood is bad though.

by Adam Reynolds on Jun 16, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right now...

…Aybar is hurt and out, Kendrick is playing 2B, and Izturis is playing SS. And I don’t know that I wouldn’t take LaRoche’s upside over Izturis’s dependable mediocrity if I were in charge of them, even if Aybar were healthy.

But as things are for the forseeable future, they’ve got Wood or Frandsen or nothin’ at 3B. Maybe Robb Quinlan if they get really and truly desperate – I think he used to play a little third.

by Vlad on Jun 16, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, what is LaRoche’s current upside in terms of hitting (wOBA)?

by Adam Reynolds on Jun 16, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

LaRoche has a few years of control left, which makes him somewhat attractive to other teams. I doubt he’d start for more than a half dozen other clubs (if that), though.

by Adam Reynolds on Jun 15, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

?

You expect people to be calm when the biggest prospect the Pirates have had in years, in some cases the biggest prospect they’ve seen in their lifetime with this organization, is on the verge of being called up? I don’t understand that. I know its been talked about quite a bit, but it isn’t that bad is it?

by Kev S on Jun 15, 2010 11:04 AM EDT reply actions  

for someone

who has never seen a winning season from the buccos, yeah its starting to get bad. i mean im all for the callup and everything i mean its getting to that point now where its either its now, or its another month until the ASB, something like that. I have no problem waiting but i would at least like to know what date i am waiting for and im also tired of every thread involving when he comes up…

by C Shint on Jun 15, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

"In their lifetime"?

That stretches things a bit, doesn’t it?

Pedro’s highest BA rank was #12 overall in 2009. That puts him in the same general neighborhood as Kip Wells (#14, 2000), Aramis Ramirez (#5, 1998), Kris Benson (#7, 1998) and Chad Hermansen (#13, 1998), to name just a few.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oops.

Pedro was #8 coming into this season. Still, the larger point stands.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

A person born in '98 would be 12 years old this year.

Yes, its a bit of a stretch but not entirely unture either. I don’t recall Kip Wells being a prospect with Pittsburgh. As I recall he was a prospect who failed to live up to expectations with the White Sox that had been pitching in the pen in Chicago prior to the trade.

by Kev S on Jun 15, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Details, details

Also, if Ramirez had been advanced the way he should have been, there would have been enormous buzz around his callup. As it was, people were intrigued, and supported him in the face of his 0-22 start.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, there's always Cutch, too.
  1. in 2008. I was pretty excited when we called him up.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

You and 3500 last minute walk up ticket buyers that day.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cutch is kind of a big deal, LOL.

But I just don’t believe anyone has been quite as anticipated like Alvarez. At least not in my memory, which goes back to the mid-80’s.

Was Dave Parker a highly anticipated prospect? Or were there bigger prospects in the 70’s? Thought I’m sure none were as BIG as Parker.

by Kev S on Jun 15, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Them days

…it seemed like a new really, really good prospect joined the team every year.

Stennett
Willie Randolf
Richie Zisk
Milt May
Parker
Kison

Thanks to Clemente’s fame and charisma and to Howie Haak’s scouting, the Pirates also had a pipeline to Latin America.

If it weren’t for the &^$#%() Reds, the Pirates would have probably won 1 or two more World Championships.

It was a great time to be a fan, and I’d bet the experience is one reason why many my age remain fans.

Steve Z

by steve_z on Jun 15, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Holy crap

the Bucs had three guys in BA’s top 13 in 1998? Wow

by DITO on Jun 15, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it was a good year for the system.

We also had Abe Nunez at #65 and Jeff Wallace at #90. Pity the player development staff couldn’t do much with any of them…

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh.

And Jose Guillen at #24 on the 1997 list. He would’ve earned a nice slot on the 1998 list if we hadn’t rushed him to the majors so quickly and burned his rookie eligibility.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

You want a real mind-blower?

Try and guess which of our prospects was #88 on the 1997 list.

You’ll never get it. Never.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Our prospects.

Using “prospect” in the loosest possible sense of the term.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I looked it up

And I won’t spoil it but you’re right. I would never have gotten that.

by thecheeseisblue on Jun 15, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why in the hell

would Neal Huntington’s job be in jeopardy at all? That’s ridiculous.

by Zeth on Jun 15, 2010 11:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Because it's important...

…to panic and be reactionary, rather than pursue a measured long-term strategy. Otherwise, how will you demonstrate passion and accountability?

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Accountabilty

That is what ownership preaches so if the team sucks, who put the team together?

by Nutting on Jun 15, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love it...

…when people interpret “accountability” to mean “immediately fire a bunch of arbitrary people because I’m bored/frustrated/delusional”.

Littlefield left this team in a terrible state. If you’d made Jesus Christ Himself the GM, He still wouldn’t have been able to turn it around yet.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Walks on Water

But is terrible at player development.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of...

Any ideas on the Jesus Lizard tie-in to Tabata’s nickname?

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know

I think Jesus could at least hit a god damn curveball

by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 15, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alas.

The day of the player-manager is over.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I heard he could be called up as early as today

not any earlier

Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"It is better to offer no excuse than a bad one." George Washington
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan

by WVPiratesfan on Jun 15, 2010 11:18 AM EDT reply actions  

+1

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Jun 15, 2010 11:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'm getting tired

of people strictly judging players based on how many home runs they hit. I kept hearing about Jose Bautista and his home runs. He’s also batting only .231. He’s either a HR or an out. All season people were calling for Pedro to come up because he had X HRs, ignoring the fact that for the majority of the season he had more Ks than hits. I like that management is taking their time with him. I don’t want another Alex Gordon on our team.

Pirates, Vikings, Hokies. I'm used to heartbreak. At least I have the Penguins....

"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-The Great One

by blackjackfishtaco on Jun 15, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Power matters

Bautista may only be hitting 231, but his OPS is still over .900. We haven’t got one player with anything close to that.

If Pedro hits 231 with a 900+ OPS (not saying he will), I will be ecstatic.

by SteveG on Jun 15, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

it usually means they are due for some regression

or I m guessing that would have been the point. Jose Bautista has a HR/FB of 19.6% which is gonna come down a wee bit, I think, and some things are gonna roll off cliffs. Not all, and he’ll still have value, just not the present monstrous love-child-of-Dunn-and-Willingham kind of value.

by BurgherKing on Jun 15, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's a good question

Would you Prefer Jose Bautista or Albert Pujols? Silly but probably pertinent.

I’d prefer pujols much like everyone else in the forum probably would say. Because he also hits your singles, doubles and has a batting average. If it takes Alvarez a bit of time to learn to cut down his strikes I think he’ll be more successful in the majors. I don’t think his arrival now is going to help the bucs suddenly contend.

by lfhlaw on Jun 15, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bautista

Will have a good year. But I suspect he’ll be a classic regression to the mean candidate.

by Bernie6 on Jun 15, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does it Matter ?

With or without Pedro, the Pirates STINK !

by Nutting on Jun 15, 2010 1:21 PM EDT reply actions  

And the point is?

We all knew they would stink and probably will for several more years. The point was this franchise was effectively stripped at every level and had to be built from the ground up. You’re talking about a 7-10 year project given how bad things were. These guys are doing what people begged them to do. The cost of rebuilding a minor league system means that, given finite funds, the major league product will lag. They’ll be better in a couple of years and if the talent delivers and some good acquisitions are made, they may contend on four years. Saying they stink mow is like saying there is a chance of rain in Pittsburgh at game time sometime this coming week.

by RichieHebner on Jun 15, 2010 1:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

The Point Is

it makes no difference about Pedro. 7-10 year project? The Marlins won 2 champiomships in 97 & 03 so spare me the long term stuff. If you know how to scout at all levels you can win. All these guys are doing is blowing up a team(easy part)and building with youth(not so easy) In the meantime ownership is rewarded with a pathetic year in year out stinko team. Give ownership credit…..how many other business people make a nice profit while providing a poor product? You keep buying their 7-10 plans

by Nutting on Jun 15, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, how dare Huntington...

…have not turned the team around during the 14 losing years that he wasn’t in charge!

Wait, what?

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

terrible post, richie

you are using like weird stuff, like reason or something…

by BurgherKing on Jun 15, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

richie is just falling hook line & sinker

for whatever ownership is feeding him. Like many emotional fans, he’ll support the Pirates no matter what plan they say they have and no matter what they do.

by Nutting on Jun 15, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

"he’ll support the Pirates no matter what plan they say they have"

Spoken like a man with no recollection of the kind of stuff Richie used to post when Littlefield was still in charge.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot of those who defend Huntington...

…were strong and vocal critics of McClatchy and Littlefield. Bearing in mind the horrible state of the Pirates when McClatchy stepped down, I consider most of the criticisms of the current front office to be incredible. Huntington’s trades and drafts made sense at the moment they were made. That’s all one can ask for.

Steve Z

by steve_z on Jun 15, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

B.S.

all one can ask for is results…..Look at Opie’s results……and as far a McClatchy goes, he like Nutting Family was and is clueless about baseball management. But Opie like past GMs have their hands tied by ownership. Its easy to blow up a building or a baseball team, its another to rebuild it. Almost every deal Opie has made has been bad. Grade: F…..the draft…Grade…TBD.
 The owner and Prez make foolish bold statements and the entire organization is just not very good or credible.

by Nutting on Jun 15, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ahh, so you’re another ‘my opinion is the truth, see I give out arbitrary letter grades’ fellow? How dare we didn’t get Jason Heyward for Nate McLouth!

Spare me your idiocy.

by ryebr3ad on Jun 16, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Spoken like a man with no recollection of the kind of stuff Richie used to post when Littlefield was still in charge who just joined BD today with the screen name “Nutting” because he thought it would be funny, so he could post up “Nutting is cheap/sucks”.and be “ironic.”

FTFY

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 15, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know. I’m pretty sanguine on the FC/NH rebuilding effort, but some of my old e-mails reveal a different tone a few years back:

In 23 years of following the Pirates, I’ve never been so hopeless about the team and organization. They need a complete overhaul. Alas, the article in today’s Tribune-Review suggests that McClatchy is going to be around for a while. At least he mentioned that he didn’t see himself as an owner “15 to 20 years from now.” I’ll be only 46 or 51 then, so I may be young enough to appreciate a decent team.

— 6/14/06 (an e-mail that I sent to a friend)
I haven’t been to PNC but friends have been and loved it. You are a stronger person than I to resist the pull of the stadium.

— 3/7/07 (a lady friend’s response to an e-mail expressing my dissatisfaction with the state of the Pirates and my refusal to attend games during that period)

by Traco Bucco on Jun 16, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another Lame PPG Op-Ed

“If I’m Huntington, I’m going down firing all the bullets in my gun. I’m not leaving any in the chamber in Indianopolis.”

Go get em, Ron… you’re a bad man.

by DL Da Burghcast on Itunes on Jun 15, 2010 2:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I think it is way premature to talk about firing the FO. Jeez. I agree with the posters above that they inherited an abysmal situation. I think they have done the only thing a team in this market can do, which is rebuild from the ground up. I’m a-ok with the trades — with the exception of Bey, none of them were worth all that much anyway. I’m ok with the picks too, although I probably would have gone for the shortstop in this year’s draft because pitchers are so risky. But what do I know? I have my own business to run, so i’m a fan who sits on my ass and watches games when I get home. Also, I think we need to remember that we are in the beginning of the rebuilding, and that results wont be seen for a few years. Some of our potentially exciting players are coming up and I only hope that it will result in decent baseball.
Incidentally, I was at the recent game against SF when rain delayed the start. They played the 79 WS film — i was there for games 3,4, and 5 — and I couldn’t believe what a friggin LONG TIME AGO that was. I was with my father (who sold papers as a kid to get into Forbes Field), who wondered if the Pirates would ever contend for even the division within his lifetime. So I want to hope for this FO, so that maybe, just maybe we will be able to be alive in the NL Central in August in a few years. Pathetic, I know. But I’m pulling for them.

by AJF67 on Jun 15, 2010 3:21 PM EDT reply actions  

BTW

I completely agree that talk of dumping the FO is ridiculous. I’m pretty displeased with how they’re handling the Pedro situation (because I think it’s unnecessary bungling), but it’s a minor issue in the big picture.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 3:57 PM EDT reply actions  

its not clear they are bungling it yet

i see why you want it to be before you leave the country, but for all we know, there may be 2 weeks to go before Pedro comes up.

by BurgherKing on Jun 15, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Y'know

The problem with writing about stuff you don’t know anything about is that once you’ve written it, everybody knows you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Bob Nutting is in the business of making money. Do you think that a good team that puts 35,000 butts in seats a night, increases the road take, the beer and food and merchandise take, TV rights, etc., wouldn’t be intriguing to him.

Frank Coonelly is a Type A labor lawyer who happened to work at the same firm I did once (he left before I arrived). Now, a lot of our mutual acquaintances don’t like him, and there was a time I was livid that they brought a union buster out of Bud Selig’s shop to run the Pirates. After I calmed down and engaged my brain, I decided to pick up the phone and call him. Surprise—we have a number of mutual friends, and we spoke for close to an hour. Turns out he has a bit of an edge, and I can see why people may not like him, but we had a thoroughly enjoyable talk. We agreed to meet up my next trip in, and had a great time chatting. He was pretty candid and I left feeling that he is exactly what logic tells you he would be: an ambitious guy who was given an opportunity of a lifetime and wants to succeed at it. So I’m now fine with him.

Neal Huntington is a guy who was given an opportunity Vlad once said he would “give his left nut” to have. He will, I am sure, own up to that honest and completely understandable sentiment. Now, having been given this job, it makes no sense in the world that he would go about systematically doing all sorts of weird ass stuff designed to ensure that he never has to worry about giving his left, right or middle nut for any baseball job again. (Although having said that, an industry that keeps recycling the likes of Ed Wade, Jim Hendry, Jim Bowden and Dave Littlefield means that anyone can be resuscitated—that said, only Jim Hendry would hire Littlefield as a scout).

Now, I may not (and don’t) like every single decision Huntington has made, but his contract and job description do not (and I’ll bet MY left nut on this) have no condition inherent that he make no mistakes. He will, presumably, be evaluated on the totality of his performance. Since that performance cannot possibly be properly evaluated, given the unusual nature of the circumstances with which he was presented (a bag of steaming shit, a small shovel, a full gasoline can, a computer and some rubber bands, the full gasoline can and computer representing the only useful tools) until his first couple of drafts mature.

So what the fuck do people want? Look at the Cubs. They could have done what we did. They didn’t. Instead, they opened their veins for Fukodome, Ramirez (what the hell is happening there?), Soriano and Zambrano. Multiyear deals, no trade clauses and oceans of money down the drain. Piniella probably will walk, and the new ownership will almost certainly shitcan Hendry. And they should. Compare what he has done and what Huntington has done, and tell me why Huntington deserves to be fired.

There comes a point where you have to give people the benefit of the doubt and a chance. While it can be fun to bitch, I’d rather argue over whether our 30 games over .500 team should have taken player X or player Y with the 30th choice in the first round. I have no idea whether these guys will get us there or not, but they haven’t had nearly enough time to do it. You want to bitch, feel free, but remember that you are operating in a fantasy construct: that ambitious human beings will make decisions designed to cause them to fail. Some of you will invoke Littlefield and leap to say he did. My answer is that intelligence is a given in my assumption. Huntington is intelligent, and Coonelly clearly so. Based on my interactions with Littlefield and listening to McClatchy, I am now convinced that the two of them together are not as intelligent as a box of hair.

So that’s my opinion. Rip away.

by RichieHebner on Jun 15, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Who are you talking to?

Did you hit reply in the wrong place? Because it has nothing to do with what I or Burgher wrote.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

My bad

I was replying to Nutting and hit reply in the wrong place.

by RichieHebner on Jun 15, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

No worries

The opening line was so severe, I thought, “what did I say?”

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know the likes of Nutting

he’s a businessman…..out to make a profit and take as little risk in doing it. Sure it would be great to have 35000 in the seats, but not at the risk of keeping and paying the talent. As long as his family is in charge, it will be baseball on the cheap. He takes advantage of what MLB hands to him.

I met Coonelly once and he came across to me as a used car salesman. He praised Nutting like he was a saint. Nothing but hot air…a true blowhard.

What do fans want? Not to feel shame that the Pirates are their team. A true honest effort to win and not Pirate shareowners reaping the rewards of MLB economics. The best thing that can happen is for this team to suck to the max and have total outrage against them that Nutting wont show his face and sell the team to a Burkle type buyer. You keep buying what they’re selling. This team is still “a bag of steaming shit” and even worse than it was when NH became GM. A couple of the young players on the team are not a result of him either so does the former GM get credit? In the end the results on the field are what should matter ….what are the results of your intelligent front office? All that matters to this sham are the balanve sheet results. Enjoy your smart guys and their results…they speak and stink loud and clear!

by Nutting on Jun 15, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know the likes of you.

You are someone who makes judgments on people without knowing a single thing about them. But, please…rant on.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Nutting wont show his face and sell the team to a Burkle type buyer"

Let’s game this out. What, exactly, do you think Burkle would do as an owner that Nutting isn’t doing right now?

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Burkle

no doubt would immediately resurrect Clemente and Stargell, each magically in his prime. He would turn Sidney Crosby into a shortstop, teach Bill Guerin how to pitch and turn Brooks Orpik into the second coming of Johnny Bench. On the seventh day, Mario would appear in the dugout with a lineup card. And then there was light.

by RichieHebner on Jun 15, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly what he did with the Pens. Spend no money while holding out for a salary cap!

Duhhhh…

by ryebr3ad on Jun 16, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess you didn't get the memo

but the MLBPA already checked the books. No problems yet!

by ryebr3ad on Jun 16, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reading this...

…reminds me just how much I’ve missed having you around.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who

have you missed, Nutting or me?

by RichieHebner on Jun 15, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

And you knew

I didn’t have to. Where did these guys all appear from at once, anyway?

by RichieHebner on Jun 16, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Way back then....
Frank Coonelly is a Type A labor lawyer who happened to work at the same firm I did once (he left before I arrived). Now, a lot of our mutual acquaintances don’t like him, and there was a time I was livid that they brought a union buster out of Bud Selig’s shop to run the Pirates. After I calmed down and engaged my brain, I decided to pick up the phone and call him. Surprise—we have a number of mutual friends, and we spoke for close to an hour. Turns out he has a bit of an edge, and I can see why people may not like him, but we had a thoroughly enjoyable talk. We agreed to meet up my next trip in, and had a great time chatting. He was pretty candid and I left feeling that he is exactly what logic tells you he would be: an ambitious guy who was given an opportunity of a lifetime and wants to succeed at it. So I’m now fine with him.

It sure seemed like Coonelly was a perfect Nutting President: He was a union busting lawyer, Selig’s Slot Nazi and hated by players agents, the Union and GMs around the league. Nutting appeared to be his father’s cat’s paw, whose job was to save the family investment and to extract money from the Pirates and put it into Seven Springs.

Instead, under Nutting and Coonelly, the Pirates finally make a commitment to rationally develop the on-field product in the only way that a revenue-poor team can: Through the draft, international acquisitions and sound player development.

Sensible Pirates fans ought to organize a parade for Nutting, Coonelly and Huntington. The Pirates haven’t been in this great of shape since the early 1990s.

Steve Z

by steve_z on Jun 15, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Regrettably...

…“sensible Pirates fans” are often in kind of short supply out there in the wild.

by Vlad on Jun 15, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now that is funny, I don't care who you are.

Sensible Pirates fans ought to organize a parade for Nutting, Coonelly and Huntington. The Pirates haven’t been in this great of shape since the early 1990s.

That is the funniest darn statement I’ve read on the internet in quite some time.

Thanks for the chuckle.

by Nutting Hostage on Jun 16, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

You Ain't Just Whistling Dixie, Brother!

Sensible Pirates fans should organize an immediate and no compromise movement to get Bob Nutting to sell and fire the FO immediately. This garbage has gone on long enough. We’re no better off as a team than we were five years ago. Dead last. Way below .500 (Right now, a Pirates team playing .500 ball would be a damn miracle!) And we’re still weeks away from the All-Star break! This is beyond ridiculous, we’ve now entered baseball absurd. I cannot stand to watch the Pirates being abused like this. For God’s sake Pittsburgh, wake-up! Demand Bob Nutting sells the Pirates. He just can’t cut it, period. We must begin to redeem the Pirates from this bankrupt baseball future Bob Nutting is foisting on the people of Pittsburgh.

by dougalmac on Jun 16, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

"We’re no better off as a team than we were five years ago."

Let’s just take a closer look at that statement, shall we?

Five years ago, we had two everyday players with an OPS+ over 100: Giles and Matt Lawton (who was 37, and using steroids, and a below-average regular after considering defense). The lowest ERA among our top five starters was a 4.41 from Dave Williams. Our draft, after Cutch in the first, was almost entirely low-ceiling college picks and easy signs. We were owned by McClatchy, and being led by Littlefield, Creech, and Graham.

And you honestly don’t think we’re better off now?

by Vlad on Jun 16, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Loads of intelligent banter, and we get the golden shower from people like dougalmac and Nutting.

I mean, god bless those Penguins and Steelers. Why, if they didn’t do exactly what the Pirates are doing now, they would be terrible teams!

My favorite part about the people bitching about the rebuild is the fact that it’s worked for the two other teams in the city.

by ryebr3ad on Jun 16, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

NP

I have a thick skin, so fire away.

Steve Z

by steve_z on Jun 16, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Naw....

I’d rather hear some more of your one-liners.

by Nutting Hostage on Jun 16, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, he's not wrong.

A lot of Pirates fans these days are remarkably ungrateful and counterproductive. Like when you take a half-dead mouse away from your cat, so that you can set it free outside the house, and it immediately turns around and sinks its teeth into your thumb.

by Vlad on Jun 16, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right...

…I learned the hard way that ya can’t trust them mice.

Steve Z

by steve_z on Jun 16, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you know

That a pet food company did some testing to determine whether cats would eat food containing mouse meat, and it flopped? Turns out most cats (including our dear departed Milo, and present fellows Wilson and Higgins) love chicken and seafood. Tried to feed Milo stewed mouse on toast once, but he sniffed and walked away. Thankfully, the stuffed mice flavored with catnip, which they love, don’t bite.

Hey, what the hell. Alvarez doesn’t have a damned hit yet. What a bust of a draft choice. Fire everybody, immediately.

by RichieHebner on Jun 16, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

So much for getting cats to mouse a house

They do like to kill birds, though. Maybe they like the challenge.

Steve Z

by steve_z on Jun 16, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's fine

I’m not sure if I said it here or on the FanPost, but my problem isn’t with them delaying him, but with this coy are-we-aren’t-we nonsense. There are 3 options: bring him up this week, either against Chicago or Cleveland, or bring him up in a few/several weeks. Let’s stipulate that, development-wise, there’s zero difference between bringing him up tonight or Friday.

It appears that they won’t bring him up against Chicago; if they bring him up tomorrow or Thurs, I think they lose tickets relative to a Sunday evening/Monday morning announcement. I think bringing him up this weekend, during the 1960 celebration, is a mistake (wasted ticket sales, takes the spotlight from the 1960 heroes, and happens in front of an easily disgruntled audience when they could easily manage a more knowledgeable audience).

If they’re not bringing him up this week, why are/were they hinting that they might? I just think this whole situation is an unforced error. And I’d feel this way even if it weren’t affecting my own personal situation (although I’d probably be about 10% less annoyed).

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hate to change the subject back to the orignal one... but...

anyone else hear this report? Found it on Yahoo!

According to Colin Dunlap of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, third base prospect Pedro Alvarez is likely to join the Pirates on Wednesday.
The Triple-A Indianapolis Indians are wrapping up a home series on Tuesday night and will head to Buffalo on Thursday. Wednesday’s off-day, then, would seem to be the perfect time for a promotion. Alvarez has hit .280/.365/.540 with 13 home runs and 53 RBI this year at the Triple-A level and will immediately take over starting third base duties in Pittsburgh once he arrives. Andy LaRoche will shift to a utilty infield role. Jun. 15 – 12:51 pm e

by TheLizardKing on Jun 15, 2010 5:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Weird

I’ve read everything Dunlap’s written on the subject, and all he has is speculation on the AAA team itself – nothing from Pittsburgh, which is who you’d expect to have the info.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

MLB Network ***

Fantasy 411 just acknowledged the same reports… suggesting that fantasy players pick him up now in preparation for his Wednesday call up

by TheLizardKing on Jun 15, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW a lot of Vanderbilt fans will be pulling for your team once Pedro’s in the lineup. Getting to watch him and David Price on that 2007 team was a real treat.

by PhilipVU94 on Jun 15, 2010 6:53 PM EDT reply actions  

NH, from today’s presser:

In Pedro’s case, statistically against left-handers, he’s done what we’ve asked him to do. Is he ready to come up and face the best situational lefties? You could probably argue he’s not going to be ready to do that for a year-plus. Defensively, is he where he needs to be? We’re certainly getting closer to that every day."
Again, I ask: WTF? I refuse to believe that NH’s baseball people are telling him, “Not today. But Friday he’ll probably be ready to be a Major Leaguer.” Either he’s ready this week or he’s not. Stop dicking around (I do recall that they did something similar with Morris at A+ before moving him up. I think that this case is different, partly because he already responded to a bit of a management tease with his burst after the Tabata/Lincoln promotion, and partly because the Pittsburgh Pirates and their fans should be more important than a motivational technique).

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 7:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Of course not.

But, there does have to be a corresponding roster move, and we don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes. They may have decided he was ready and then they gave themselves a week or so to figure out if they could trade one of their albatrosses.

by MarkInDallas on Jun 15, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll admit

that I keep forgetting that – you’re the second or third person to point that out to me.

Although honestly, is a PTBNL for Aki worth even 1000 tickets for Pedro’s debut? But hey, maybe someone gives us something worthwhile for DY, and I’m happy despite it all.

by JRoth95 on Jun 15, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

NH pulls what would be analagous to...

when GMs say they’re committed to the head coach/manager then fire him 5 days later. I guess “not quite ready” is baseball slang for “promote him immediately”.

by SovietColonel on Jun 16, 2010 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

If we lose the next 5 games...

your 1st sentence could be a lot more accurate than it currently appears.

by Thunder on Jun 16, 2010 3:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bringing up Pedro is great and I am happy to see him but......

Unless the starting pitching improves significantly, Pedro is not going to do a whole lot to improve the clubs chances to win.

Adding Pedro gives the Nuttings something that looks like a promising lineup, although they still need one more run producer at either RF or 1B.

But, given that the Pirates starting rotation has the worst era in the NL and hasn’t won a game since May 18th, Pedro alone will not be anywhere near enough to reverse the clubs fortunes.

He should be entertaining to watch though. – As Walker, Tabata, and McCutchen already are.

by Nutting Hostage on Jun 16, 2010 10:48 AM EDT reply actions  

FO, Nuttings bumble their way to another record losing season.

“Sensible Pirates fans ought to organize a parade for Nutting, Coonelly and Huntington.” If there are any more crack-heads like this in Pittsburgh, please run their butts outta ton! I don’t expect a miraculous turn-around in the Pirates’ fortunes, it took years for them to get to this bad place, it’s gonna take time for them to rebuild. But what I do expect is that when mgmt. and the owners do make moves, it yields some positive results. This “wait ’til next year” crap is ridiculous. The Pirates are in last place and we’re still weeks away from the all-star break. In short, 18 seasons of losing baseball and the Pirates are going nowhere. Like it or not there’s no measureable improvement in this team. We’re so far below .500 that there’s no chance of the Pirates playing .500 ball by the end of the season. The Pirates cannot compete, and are losing games at an alarming rate. Winning teams have momentum and confidence going for them. This is a pipe-dream in Pittsburgh. For a city that regularly produces championship calibre teams, there is no excuse for 18 years of losing MLB in Pittsburgh, once a proud and storied franchise. The Nuttings have proven abundantly they can’t get the job done. The FO hasn’t shown Pirate fans any appreciable improvement in the team with all the so-called “it will work out in the end” deals they’ve made. They’ve squandered and misused prime MLB talent and their trades haven’t produced any marked improvement in the teams performance. If we were in third place I could say that things are getting better. We’re dead last and way below .500 ball. It’s not working. It’s not working. All you people can post all the hopeful garbage you want about the Nuttings and the FO, but it’s empty talk. It’s not working. Fire the FO. Compel the Nuttings to sell. It’s the only hope Pittsburgh has. I cannot stand to watch another year of mediocre Pittsburgh baseball. Pittsburgh deserves better. The Pirates deserve better.

by dougalmac on Jun 16, 2010 11:07 AM EDT reply actions  

There are so many things wrong with this statement that I don’t even know where to start. So I’m just going to ignore it all. Instead I’ll ask a question. If you don’t like what the Pirates are doing, what do you recommend they do? Give me a better plan.

by thecheeseisblue on Jun 16, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do what the Steelers did back in the 70s?

Duuuuuhhhhh…

by ryebr3ad on Jun 16, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

to avoid confusion…my point here is that an obvious untapped pool of players does not exist like it did for the Steelers.

Yinzers uber alles

by BostonBuc on Jun 17, 2010 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Heh.

“I don’t expect a miraculous turn-around in the Pirates’ fortunes, it took years for them to get to this bad place, it’s gonna take time for them to rebuild.”

So close…

“This "wait ’til next year" crap is ridiculous.”

And yet so far.

You’re OK with them taking time to rebuild, as long as it’s finished before the end of this year? Very generous of you.

by Vlad on Jun 16, 2010 1:10 PM EDT reply actions  

That’s the thing with idiots. They usually contradict themselves. That’s how we know they’re idiots.

by ryebr3ad on Jun 16, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

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