Pirates Didn't Ask For Physical For Akinori Iwamura Before Trade
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 18, 2010 12:24 PM EDT
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PrintI don't know exactly what all this means, and I'm hoping some of you can tell me. The AP reports that the Bucs didn't ask for a physical from Akinori Iwamura before trading for him, and relied instead on scouting reports, which were positive. The article also says that Frank Coonelly says that such pre-trade physicals are "uncommon."
Well... are they? Just googling around, I've found that Johan Santana, Erik Bedard, the players involved in the Roy Halladay / Cliff Lee deal and the two guys in the Mike Cameron / Xavier Nady deal all took physicals. The trade that sent Coco Crisp to Boston was delayed when Guillermo Mota failed a physical. The A's gave Matt Holliday a physical upon acquiring him. The Mets did not give J.J. Putz a physical when they traded him, and they took a bunch of heat for it. Pre-trade physicals do seem to be at least reasonably common, and the Mets' tale seems like a cautionary one, not an example to follow.
Then again, the Bucs' trade for Iwamura took place in early November. The Pirates scouted him at the end of the season and didn't note any problems. Since it was already known that he'd had knee issues the previous year, one wonders what a physical might have found that the Pirates didn't already know. Under normal circumstances, I assume the Pirates would have given him one anyway, because you can usually void a trade if you give a physical within the first week or so if the player turns out to be hurt, but Iwamura was in Japan at the time. Then again, you'd think a $5 million investment would have been worth a trip across the ocean.
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TIme crunch
There was also a time crunch on that deal, because the Rays needed to either move him, pick up his option, or dump him. It’s why they got a pretty good steal landing him for Chavez. As I recall it, this deal went down just hours before the deadline for the Rays to make a decision on him. I wonder if that had an effect on the Pirates not taking their time and getting the physical.
Couldn't we have sent him back though?
Claiming that we didn’t know enough about his injuries. I remember hearing that the Pirates could have done that with the terrible deal they made for Tabata. I heard they could have claimed that the injury was more serious than they knew, and they could have returned Tabata and everyone else, and got Nady/Marte back.
I assume he is kidding....
H20 is a solid poster.
Even Cook/Smizik/Collier could realize that the Nady trade was a plus. Although, they may say they cannot determine it yet…..something they aren’t willing to do with the other trades.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 18, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m also pretty sure that the initial version of the Nady/Marte trade DID get held up because of injury concerns. Isn’t the reason that we ended up with Karstens and McCutchen rather than Kontos and Coke because one of them failed a physical?
by getwonkafied on Jun 18, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure, but ...
This was not the FO’s finest moment. All you had to do was weigh him to see a potential problem.
The Pirates have limited sources. They can’t afford $5 million mistakes.
Moreover, as noted, physical are not that rare It should have been done.
If so, the Aki disaster would have been avoided and the resources used much better.
5 mil could have gotten us a better 4th to 5th starter at least
or another bench player who could hit his weight
by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 18, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Failing to perform
a physical on Iwamura is not doing one’s due diligence. When you acquire a piece of property, it is always wise to learn whatever information you can about that piece of property independently. Sure, you can rely on the assurances of the seller, but it’s best to do one’s own due diligence just to make sure that the seller is not lying or did not miss anything.
Another NH failure
The acquisiton in general was a failure
but I’m skeptical that a physical pre-trade would have shown anything that would have dissuaded the Bucs from doing the deal.
by DITO on Jun 18, 2010 3:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Vlad
That’s why I said weigh him. Seriously, you don’t make this trade without a physical. It was a devastating injury that cost him last year.
You don’t just take a scout’s word for it. They wouldn’t know whether the knee was recovered. They just make a judgment on how he looks.
And I’d like to know which scout thought he looked good.
I agree with you..
the man was coming off a serious injury so the scouting reports alone were insufficient IMO. I think we rushed the trade to prevent others from getting involved. My gut says NH rolled the dice and got burned.
I do, however, take exception to the “Another NF failure” comment as you know that we both strongly disagree with one another in terms of NH’s job performance.
Of course we'd have no way of knowing how this is usually done
since we don’t work in MLB, but it seems to me that if a player is coming back from an injury – any injury – you’d want to check it out yourself to see what the story is. We also don’t know if the FO had access to any medical records from the surgery and rehab or if there was reason to believe Aki was not responding as well as possible to the treatment. It certainly appears as if the Pirates dropped the ball on this one. Let’s hope Aki reports to AAA and regains some form so we can get something out of this.
Again....
In your first couple of sentences, you are saying that we don’t know all the information. Then, in your last sentence, you say the Pirates have dropped the ball.
How can you speak on something, or, better yet, give an informed opinion, when, you yourself, say you are without pertinent information?
Do you really think the Pirates would invest 1/7th of their payroll on a guy that they weren’t satisfied, one way or another, that he was indeed healthy? That assumes stupidity of the highest order on behalf of our FO….and, if anyone truly believes that, they cannot also say on the other hand that this FO is the right one to be maintained.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 18, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, it was my next-to-last sentence.
And I wrote that it appears as if the Pirates dropped the ball. Do you think I wrote the other stuff to intentionally contradict myself? One might gather that since we don’t have all the information, and we never will, that it is easy to speculate that someone didn’t do all the follow-up they should have (we do speculate here, right?). I never said that was an informed opinion – the fact that you assert that is was shows you didn’t pay attention to what I did write. I simply said it was prudent to follow up on a player recovering from an injury.
As to the rest of your post, I would say that someone screwed up somewhere along the way if we obtained an injured player and either (1) nobody bothered to have it checked out, or (2) someone checked it out and got it wrong. I don’t remember commenting anywhere about retaining or not retaining the FO.
Try bran – might help.
Charlie cites 5-6 examples......
And, projects that they are indeed common.
Don’t you think that Frank Coonely would know more than Charlie on it being common or not? And, what would be the advantage to the Pirates of not getting a phycial before acquiring them?
Charlie’s argument basically comes down to this: The Pirates took Iwamura, paid him 4.85 million, projected him to start at 2B, spoke of a possible longer term deal…………while at the same time guessing on his health?
That doesn’t make any sense. Seems to me that Charlie is jumping the gun when he, unlike Coonely, doesn’t know all the details.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 18, 2010 1:24 PM EDT reply actions
But that's why you check
There is precedent.
My house cost far less than $5 million and I had a home inspector go over every inch.
You insist on it. If TB declines, you back off.
I think he was being waived anyhow. I think NH thought he wouldn’t sign with the Pirates and made the trade.
But I doubt TB was inundated with offers for Aki based on contract and the injury.
Hopefully they will do the uncommon thing
And request physicals in the future. Don’t know what else can be said on this one.
Gawd
Where does Smizik go from calling them the “worst management team in baseball”?
Honestly, though, a way bigger deal is going to be made of this than necessary. Aki wasn’t hurt, he was old and couldn’t move. No physical is going to tell you he can’t man 2nd any more. That’s not going to stop the press, though, which is really getting out of control with the way it’s covering this team (beat writers excluded)
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by For The Glory 1855 on Jun 18, 2010 1:53 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed.....although I would include beat writers
Dejan has never heard of ‘coach speak’ or ‘FO speak’ or keeping one’s public comments to a minimum so not to affect trade possibilities and other teams finding out information that the Bucs don’t want them to find out.
And, the columnists are just piling on. Unfortunately, this latest blog post on here is very similar to a column Cook could write. While saying in the first sentence that ‘I don’t know what this means’, he then follows up with a conclusion that implies that he knows precisely what this means. It is akin to Cook saying, “While it is too soon to say the Pirates trades have been awful…….The Pirates trades have been awful.”
I expect it from Cook, but not from Charlie.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 18, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope - just this column......
I love 95% of Charlie’s analysis/insight, but this column reeks of lazines, in my opinion.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 18, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm the one
who’s been beating this drum, because while everyone’s been going on and on about the extensions fiasco, which really doesn’t affect the team on the field, this appeared to be a financial and field-level fiasco, which certainly does. I obviously am not privy to the scouting reports and whatever other info the Pirates got on Aki before they consummated the deal, but the part that jumped out at me was Coonelly saying physicals aren’t comon, and I call shenanigans on that. Just about every deal I see come across the wires anymore has “pending a completed physical” attached to it. Iwamura suffered a serious knee injury last year. I know they were desperate for someone, anyone who could play second, but really … if I were about to sink $5 million into a used car, I’d sure kick the tires and then I’d get another opinion too.
I call bullshit on the Coonelly statement too...
Charlie provided enough examples of trades pending physicals to debunk FC’s statement. I think we dropped the ball on this one. NH took a chance wanting to acquire Aki before other teams got involved or before he was released. He rolled the dice and got burned.
Agreed
And it’s not like the Pirates haven’t been burned before.
Example: Boston trading us Brandon Lyon.
DL didn’t insist on a physical and got damaged goods. He was lucky Boston tweaked the deal or the Bucs would have made another terrible trade.
the irony there was
Freddy Sanchez was injured a couple of days before he became the make good in the trade. I loved Freddy, and the year and a half wait for him was worth it, but you have to admit…
I beat this issue to death several weeks ago by asking repeatedly if anyone knew if the Pirates had done their medical homework. Now the answer is that they obviously did not.
Trading for a guy who was just about to be released-and it just had to be done then because NH says now they had credible info that another team wanted him-and picking up a $4.8 million option without making sure of the guy’s physical condition sounds really bad.
The FO screwed this one up. PERIOD
He had damage to his ACL, some damage to his MCL, and torn ligaments in his ankle according to the post-surgery report a year ago, but the Pirates obviously considered his recovery last September and scouting reports as proof positive that he would be worth a trade and a multimillion dollar contract.
We can’t be sure about the condition of Iwamura’s knee this year, but showing up fat and out-of-shape didn’t help matters.
There’s also the issue of motivation that the Pirates seemingly forget time and again when acquiring veteran players who often have little to gain but big paychecks by playing for the perennial losers in Pittsburgh.
But it’s done and over with.
Let’s move on to worrying about the development of the guys that really matter for our future in the major and down on the farm.
Maybe it's just me
and maybe it works this way all the time in sports, but if someone called me out of the blue and said, “I’ve got a great offer for you, it’ll only cost you $5 million and you have 30 minutes to decide,” well, I’d figure it was one of those Nigerian princes calling and hang up. Then I’d call the cops.
And maybe I’m being unfair. Maybe Aki really was OK but looked at the trade and thought, I’m going from a World Series team to THIS pile of steaming poo? THIS is what I worked back from a serious injury for? Screw this, my money’s guaranteed, so keep those (whatever the Japanese equivalent of wontons is) comin’!
Also
the concern is that down the road they learn their lessons from fiascos like this. If they say, “We won’t make the same mistake again,” then good. If they keep saying, “Hey, nobody ELSE asks for a physical,” then other teams will be happy to keep sending us damaged goods.
Did the guys they got from the Cubs get physicals? I’m not saying a physical on Hart would have caught anything since it was awhile before he got hurt (I think), but wasn’t Asciano hurt almost immediately?
I don't think it is common to give "everyone" physicals.
Maybe that’s what Coonely meant but it clearly is commong to give players with an injury history, or recent surgery, a physical. So in this case, we dropped the ball by not giving Aki a physical. In the case with the Cubs we did not. I don’t believe a physical in their case would have revealed anything anyway, at least not with Hart. He threw with us for the rest of the season pain free.
I love the picture here of Iwamura:
No more Engrish, pwease!
so, in one sentence, he morphed
from a bad asian stereotype into elmer fudd?
Everyone just assumes it’s his knee, but I wonder how much of Aki’s struggles were due to his sore hamstring.
Or just lack of a desire to play for a loser.
If an athlete shows up over weight and out of shape like Aki did it seems he was also suffering from lack of motivation or maybe a bout of childish pouting over being dealt to the Pirates.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 18, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose that’s possible, but I usually don’t accuse guys of having bad intentions unless there’s more proof than what we’ve seen here.
Agreed
It’s counterproductive to play badly and then expect a payday from another team. Even if other GMs don’t think you tanked it purposely (which should make any player radioactive), the bad play in and of itself is only going to reduce the offers. No 30+ middle infielder with an IQ over 60 would be likely to pursue that strategy.
the manny exception
does NOT prove the rule.
Boy...people around here have short memories.
The Giants did TWO physicals on Freddy Sanchez BEFORE the trade.
And STILL he's been hurt
Although he’s actually playing like a monster at the moment – he’s accumulated 1.0 WAR in a scant month. Not a lot of power (even by his own standards), but we’ll see how he progresses – and whether he finishes the season healthy.
It’s obvious that the Pirates’ pro scouting staff is not up to par. If there’s anyone who really deserves to be fired, it’s the guy who suggested that they acquire guys like Iwamura, Craig Hansen, Kevin Hart, and Jose Ascanio, who immediately couldn’t say healthy upon coming to Pittsburgh. You have to make sure you’re not getting damaged goods, and the Pirates clearly don’t. This is an issue.
I don’t know if you can lump Hart in there. Unless you think he was hurt when he came over, but pitched till this May anyway
It’s not that far off an assumption, especially given that the other pitcher in the trade clearly had issues at the time of the deal.
by Suffering Buc on Jun 18, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
This is bullshit...
You can’t lump every injury in the same category. Injuries happen. The diference with Aki is that he was recently injured, just like Freddy was when we traded him, and he should have received a physical just like Freddy did from the Giants. You can’t blame a team for trading for players with no injury histrory who suddenly end up injured. If that were the case no one in baseball would have a job. Ease up Buc.
I'm plenty eased, Slick.
It’s becoming a pretty recurring theme. I’m just giving an impartial opinion. You know I’m not a Ron Cook type who just bashes anything the organization does.
by Suffering Buc on Jun 18, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah sorry, I was coming back to repost before I got called off....
the bullshit comment was unnecesarry. My bad.
From the looks of that picture . . .
a physical surely would have picked up on Aki’s degenerative ear condition.
From the video that I posted showing Aki's running and range after the injury...
Most people agreed that his range and movement seemed fine and that the Pirates were justified in their assessment of his ability.
So, now what has changed? We all knew at that time they didn’t perform a physical – unless they had gone to Japan to do it. He wasn’t in the country.
Giving Freddy Sanchez two physicals is different because he was too injured to play at the time. Obviously, if a player is too injured to play, you want to give him a physical.
I guess the Pirates could have and probably should have sent a doctor to Japan to examine him.
The bigger question is…would giving Aki a physical have changed their opinion?
I would guess no, because he had a physical after reporting, and no problems were found. He wasn’t too injured to play, and they had already seen from his actual play that he was moving fine for someone coming off surgery.
What was a physical at the time of the trade going to show? It was right after the season, so he would still be at the same weight as he was during the season.
Is there a medical test they can give for “decreased baseball skills”?
I don't agree with this...
I loved your videos but I’m not sure they were conclusive. Aki had just come off of major knee surgery so there was more than enough reason to give him a physical. He didn’t have to be hurt like Freddy to make a physical a good idea. I do agree that I don’t know whether or not a physical would have revealed the problem but I’d sure as hell rather conduct the physical and not need it than need it and not conduct it. I don’t think Aki’s skills could have decreased that much in one off season. I think you made the point before but I think this was simply a case of NH rolling the dice to acquire Aki before other teams got involved or before he was released. It was a gamble and we lost. However, I do not see this as the big deal that the media and others are making it out to be. This move cost us under $5 million…big deal we had the lowest payroll in the league. It’s not like we are going to be talking about this deal two years from now as if this move will hinder our “financial flexibility.”
Mark
My logic is that Aki’s injury was devastating. Far worse than Freddy’s woes.
Freddy lost a few weeks. Aki missed a whole season.
You have to check.
Freddy would have missed more time had his surgery been mid season like Aki's.
Not only did Sanchez miss most of his time with the Giants last year, he had surgery in December because it wasn’t healing, and then was out until June. So, his recovery was about 6 months. Aki only missed 3 months with his surgery.
Freddy also has had multiple injuries. Aki’s injury was bad, but I wouldn’t call it “devastating”.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 18, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Mark
Did you see the play he was injured on?
It was one of the worst I’ve seen.
As for Freddy, the Gaints physicials, as I recall, said that he could get through the year and then require more work in the offseason.
But Freddy’s injuries, I don’t believe, were nearly as serious. I also think it’s important the Giants did their due diligence.
Let's talk about the number "5" in various sums for a minute:
For Iwamura in 2010 you can be guaranteed that the Pirates will pay every bit of $5 million in salary, translator fees, per diem etc. before he’s off their books.
The Pirates seemingly leave no stone unturned each year in the Rule V draft trying to find other gems like Evan Meek for $50,000.
Something does not make sense here.
Did it ever occur to anyone in the Pirates’ FO that sending someone over to visit Iwamura in Japan for a couple days after the trade might have helped?
Did anybody from the Pirates-medical staff, a person with knowledge of Japan and the Japanese language, a trainer to talk about his health and off-season conditioning etc., did anyone go over and see him before the start of spring training?
And it’s not just about medical reports and staying away from 食べ放題(tabehodai=all-you-can-eat restaurants).
It’s also about thinking of the proper way to deal with the Japanese in business, and MLB is a business.
You have to build relationships with the Japanese-period.
The Pirates have an invaluable contact in Japan in Masumi Kuwata. Did they try to work through him to help Iwamura get prepared to know more about Pittsburgh and what to expect before he started in Bradenton?
Maybe they did some of the above. I suspect they did not, though.
Or maybe Iwamura insisted he wanted to be left alone during the off-season.
I don’t know, but the Pirates should talk more openly and honestly about what was and was not done to avoid future mistakes with Japanese players, if they can get someone worth having after all this.
I agree with your thought that they should have sent someone to meet with him.
That they did not was a very poor decision. You want to make sure the player is motivated to play and keeps in good shape. Aki has been known for an excellent work ethic, so maybe they felt they didn’t need to, or that he would consider it an insult.
Anyway, that was not a good decision.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 18, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Mark and Vlad
Maybe they fell for the stereotype that ALL Japanese players ALWAYS work hard and there would be virtually no possibility that Iwamura would not be motivated to play for the Pirates and get in the best shape possible to do so.
Since their scouts seemed to think he was sufficiently recovered from the surgery at the end of ’09, they might have ASSUMEd he would be even better this year.
Most Japanese players-from Little Leaguers to pros-do work very hard at the game. But I saw some fat cat Japanese veterans in NPB who made a ton of money for very little work or performance their last few years. Not very many, but some in the past decade or so, as bigger, longer contracts, and the option of the majors for various players came into the picture.
Whatever the real story is, and we’ll probably never find out much about it, I want the Pirates to learn from whatever mistakes they made and try not to repeat them when they try to obtain their next Japanese player.
ot: I like kuwata
I met him a few timnes and he is a nice guy.
For me, the most relevant question at this point...
…is what steps they did take to verify Iwamura’s health. Did they at least get a copy of his file and look at the most recent scans of his knee?
If so, then there probably wasn’t much additional info to be gained from a physical, at least in terms of things that might have voided the deal – “subject is overwieght” usually doesn’t fly as a causus belli. If not, though, then that would in my opinion constitute at least some degree of negligence. In a world where you can e-mail that stuff in like 30 seconds, there’s no reason not to get it.
All I know
is that the first time I got a look at him, my response was, “I had no idea what a fat fuck he was.”
Trouble is
He (presumably) hadn’t put the weight on at the time of the trade.
That said, the point above about sending someone to meet him last fall seems an extremely sound one, even setting aside any culture-specific issues. This is a guy you’re relying on heavily for at least one year, with dreams of several years. How about starting off the relationship strong?
What can't be measured in all this...
Is Aki’s willingness to play for the Pirates or anyone else. He didn’t seem to want to be there. Aki appeared to be one of the far too many players who came to the Pirates in recent years near the end of their road. Let’s hope with the influx upside talent, the Pirates are done having to take risks on aging veterans.
by buccobob_houstontx on Jun 18, 2010 5:14 PM EDT reply actions
Bucs Dugout
I’ve noticed thru the last year(been a pirates fan for 40 yrs, only looking at Bucs dugout for a year) that this site is primarily an apologists cite for Pirates front office management. I agree they have taken positive steps in the draft that Dave Littlefield probably wouldn’t but otherwise their tenure has been marked with ineptitude. Consider not signing Miguel Sano, the public split of Perry Hill, the almost botched Alvarez signing and intimated misdirection, signing a player to a 4.85 year contract w/o a physical when he had been injured a year, the signing of Vasquez, 0 return on the Bay trade and now disclosure the manager had been signed to an extension but was told to keep quiet. I think the list could go on. I don’t know of any other teams in the last two and 1/2 years that has had such uneven management. I understand their risk to reward ratio is high. They have to gamble d/t lack of resources. But come on, a lot of their mistakes are mistakes. After calling up Alvarez what position players do they have in the minors? They signed a lot of very young pitching talent which may or may not pan out. (why so many righthanders) I don’t see any of the other players in the system being ready for a couple of years. Can you say 20 years of losing? I can. Pirates apologists I hope your right. I’d like to see another contender in my lifetime.
Please don't lump all of us into one nice and neat label...
I don’t like being called an “apologist” any more than you would like being called a “yinzer.” Being supportive of this front office does not make one an apologist. Just take a look at this thread. There are many here who are very supportive of NH but are criticizing his due dilligence in the Aki acquistion. I do appreciate that you expressed your views without calling people who support the current front office suckers or stupid…but man stay away from the labels please.
Oh Slick one
I did use a qualfier. Primarily apologists. Today’s sampling is more even than usual. Not giving a player with a known inury a physical is to use your words. STUPID.
it is stupid
and the sampling is always even when the issue is real, such as perhaps the Perry hill situation, and the Vazquez or Aki issue. Even for the argument that the Pirates FO was too pushy in the Sano negotiations.
It is strongly shifted to one side or other on things like the Bay trade- no one denies that it didnt pan out as expected, but its still far from a 0 return, as you suggest. Andy laroche was a 2.5 WAR player for a year, and Bryan Morris is looking great in AA, for the most part.
What, for instance, is the logic behind: " a lot of their mistakes are mistakes. After calling up Alvarez what position players do they have in the minors?"
Are you suggesting calling up Alvarez was a mistake? That there aren’t players in the upper minors is primarily Dave Littlefields fault.
by BurgherKing on Jun 18, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Travis DW
I’m hurt Travis. I was sure you cared.
No I always care about rundowns of stuff that’s been discussed ad nauseum for a year or so now, including the requisite “I’ve been following the team since Maz” opening. Please, continue, maybe inform us how many years of losing we’re up to now, that’s always fascinating.
Travis
Travis, what pisses me off is I think we have two corporate talking heads running the show and a miser for an owner. Excuse me is my post sickens you. By they way you left one of your condoms at my house.
If your goal was to make a weird enough non-sequitur that I couldn’t respond to it you’ve succeeded. Great job.
heh, i didnt even get what that meant
I mean I dont even see why that last sentence was an insult to you!
I think it must mean Quahog’s mom is some sort of cougar?
by MarkInDallas on Jun 19, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at the old Bucs Dugout when Littlefield was in charge, when it was the exact opposite of the way it is now. People support the front office now because they;re doing well. As for the things you named, Sano was made impossible to sign if you read about the signing at all, because his agent did not allow us to match any offer, though we would have exceeded the amount he signed for. The split of Perry Hill is a molehill you’re trying to turn into a mountain. Alvarez signed, so who cares if it was “almost botched”, it wasn’t. Not giving Iwamura a physical was a mistake, but they cut their losses and so what, all they lost was Chavez who has been terrible. The signing of vasquez wasn’t even that bad, I suggest you look at any other team, where they make free agent signings much more terrible than losing 2 million. There hasn’t been zero return on the Bay trade, as LaRoche is not that bad, and Bryan Morris has been doing very well. The front office has no reason to tell the fans anything, so why does it matter they kept quiet on an extension? If you don’t know any other teams with uneven management, clearly you don’t know many other teams. Look at the Cubs, or Seattle, or most of all the Mets. They mess up a lot more than the Pirates have. Of everything you mentioned two have been mistake by the front office, Iwamura, and signing Vasquez, though that is small enough it barely matters. As for prospects other than Alvarez, there’s more than AAA you know. They have people like Sanchez, Harrison, D’Arnaud, Holt, Mercer, Friday, Marte, Grossman, Chambers, Latimore, etc. Just because you don’t know them doesn’t mean they aren’t prospects. And of course the pitching talent they drafted may or may not pan out, it’s the draft. Everything is a crapshoot, there is no way a team can take only people who will pan out. And as for the amount of righthanders, this draft was strong in one specific area, right handed prep pitching. So that’s what the Pirates took, since next year’s draft is much stronger in all other areas. As for the rest of your post, I will get my satisfaction when the Pirates are good, and you’re right there with the rest of the trolls and yinzers saying you knew it all along, and always supported the team.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 19, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Zero return on the Bay trade? Is Bryan Morris chopped liver?
by Adam Reynolds on Jun 19, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Aki is a winner
Aki is a very good ballplayer who just happened to be traded to a bad team.
He was an important part of the Rays championship run. I am sure there is more to this story than what we are getting. The Rays simply had no place for him when Zobrist had his breakout season. To bad the Bucs couldnt get him on track.
Most were happy to have him when the trade occurred
but he obvisouly played horribly. Coupled with the weight issue, I feel like he just didn’t care and didn’t really try to succeed. I have no data to support that and could be completely wrong.
Aki ...
seems to be more interested in cashing a paycheck than conditioning. He has made no efforts to mesh with the team, according to media reports.
He’s been a disaster in the field and at the plate.
I liked Aki with TB. He’s no longer a good player. The Pirates aren’t a very good team. But that doesn’t excuse his conditioning or performance.
I doubt there will be a rush for his services based on this year.
In response to Charlie's original post...
I think we have two important parts to consider here (no I do not think that asking if Aki wanted to play or not has anything to do with a serious discussion about the topic…I’m sure a lot of guys don’t want to play for our team).
1. Is it common/uncommon to request a physical in a trade?
2. What purpose would the physical have served?
For the first question, I couldn’t give an exact statistical breakdown as to how common or uncommon the request for a physical is for a trade. I think enough trades require them to say that they are at least not unheard of, clearly, especially in the case with players with injury histories. What is probably a more important question, however, is why the Pirates would settle for common? They need to look for every advantage that they can find, and capitalize on every move, more so than most other teams. Their risk-to-reward ratio is high, so again, why settle for common? I don’t believe that it takes a leap of logic to suggest that a physical might be in order in a situation like this, common or not. If there are only two other guys on your team making near what you are going to pay Aki, you should make sure that it is a sound investment, period. I couldn’t care less if it is common or not. I would want them to think for themselves and protect their investments.
As for the second point, whether a physical would have done any good or not is irrelevant. If you buy a house that has a history of water problems in the basement, and the home inspector okays the house, was that inspection a bad investment? I don’t think it really matters if the problem happens again or not. If it never happens again, the inspection is still worth it. If it happens again, not only is that proof that the inspection was worth it, but it also shows you where you might have a weak link in your business dealings…i.e. find a different home inspector. The same thing holds true with the question of the usefulness of a physical. Regardless of the outcome, it’s just a smart move. Even if nothing had turned up, that would at least be one less indication that the FO might not be as talented as they want us to believe.
In summary, a physical makes enough sense that even if it is uncommon, a team with as many financial and talent problems as the Pirates have need to follow through completely on their investments. Even if the physical told them nothing new (and we don’t know that it wouldn’t have), it would have been a smart move anyhow. This is one of those situations where no matter what side of the aisle you are on, it can’t look good, unless your only goal is to defend every choice the FO makes without regard to logic and reason.
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