SB Nation Pittsburgh Editor's Pick
"Boisterous Discussions", A New Infield...
by David Todd on Jun 25, 2010 1:33 PM EDT
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PrintIn the game recap in the PG this morning Dejan Kovacevic talks about a "boisterous discussion" between Gary Varsho, Lastings Milledge and Bobby Crosby after a blown hit and run in which Milledge was thrown out and Crosby didn't swing.
It was not clear who was at fault -- either player could have missed a sign -- but Varsho and Milledge became spirited enough that they had to be separated.
Apparently the two (Milledge and Varsho) also had words after Milledge failed to catch Michael Young's pop-fly triple in the seventh that eventually led to Texas tying the game.
After the game JR said it "was no big deal." It is a big deal. As I opined on my radio show this morning (shameless plug, 6-9 AM, FoxSports 970), Pirates' fans can deal with a lot. Obviously by just being fans we have dealt with a lot. The one thing I can't deal with is lack of hustle and continued fundamental mistakes.
While Milledge has finally started to come around with the bat and is hitting a robust .352/.417/.519 in June, his baserunning and outfield routes actually seem to have gotten worse. I am interested to hear more about what the flap was about on the hit and run. Milledge certainly ran, and did look back to the plate as if he expected the batter to swing, and was thrown out easily--causing Bob Walk to wonder how bad a jump he could have gotten.
With his past reputation, Milledge is the last guy one wants to see have issues with coaches. Getting thrown out at third earlier in the year on a ball to the left-center field wall made me question Milledge's speed and judgment as did both fly balls and his base running last night. Certainly Milledge has earned the opportunity to play every day, but seeing some other issues bubble to the surface, real or perceived, is concerning. After three months of the season I think Milledge may be a decent hitter, but with average power at best. He is a fair to poor outfielder with an average arm, and his speed is much less than initially believed. I would call it average at best for a 25 year old outfielder.
Along similar lines, it seems clear to me that over the past week Ronny Cedeno has lost his job. Coincidentally or not, this happened after a blow-up between him and Varsho during pregame drills. As his replacement, Crosby has done rather well at the plate the past week raising his average to around .270 while going 10 for 15 in his last four starts. But, he has made some costly errors during that stretch as well. JR has noted that he likes Crosby's experience in an infield with newcomers Neil Walker and Pedro Alvarez on either side of him.
With Crosby at short it is worth nothing that the whole infield has now changed since opening day. With Jose Tabata in left, only two of the original eight penciled in as the "everyday" lineup remain in their original spot, although Jones and Milledge have changed positions.
For the first time, losing 15 of 17 and 14 in a row on the road seems to be taking its toll not just on the players, but the coaching staff as well. At the same time the front office has taken a big PR hit with the about face call-up of Alvarez, the breaking of the contract extensions of Neal Huntington and John Russell and the mistakes made in the acquisitions of Akinori Iwamura and Dana Eveland. Kovacevic talked about last weekend being the most tension he has seen around the club in his six years on the job.
I'm still optimistic about the club's longer-term plan, but with six more games on the road in Oakland and Chicago, Cedeno and Milledge seeming to have some issues with the staff and a pitching staff in tatters, I think there is a decent chance for all hell to break loose.
Interesting days.....
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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the one that he looked lost on, I can understand of Varsho was mad at him about that
but the one were he laid to try and catch it I can’t blame him for not making that play, he was giving it his all and came up a few inches short
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"You Don't mess with the USA" Landon Donavan
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
I disagree....
on the second. I don’t think Milledge busted his ass. Whether it was he couldn’t judge it or was afraid of the wall or whatever, I can’t say. He also noticeably slowed up before he dove, from my perspective.
dtoddwin
Not only did Milledge slow up on the ball he dove for, he also took a bit of a “looping” route there. If he’d done a better job judging the ball, he could have made a nice running catch on it. Instead he screwed up, as he did with the ball to the wall in right-center.
Some people tout the “model citizen” Milledge has been since he arrived in Pittsburgh.
Well, didn’t anyone think that there must have been more to his problems in NY and Washington than have been reported?
You can be guaranteed that when he was acquired by the Pirates he was told that he had to live a certain way off the field, and work a certain way on it during practice and games, or his career would likely be over-at least in the majors.
What a tough decision! Actually put in some work to try and make big league money for the rest of ‘09, ’10, and maybe beyond, or end up back in Florida hangin’ out with some friends and going nowhere.
Milledge deserves credit for actually respecting the game to try the past year.
He deserves credit for generally hustling during games.
He deserves credit for hitting well with RISP, especially shortening his swing and hitting well with 2 strikes.
But what else is it about his “game” with the Pirates over the odd 125 he has played for the club that leads anyone to think this guy is a part of future winning teams?
His rag arm, especially for a right fielder?
His sub-par route running in the OF?
His adventures on the basepaths?
His continuing lack of power-one year removed from the right hand/thumb injury?
He hasn’t earned the right to start for the Pirates. He got it by default because this crappy team has no one else to turn to for the time being.
He should be a backup for the rest of this year and maybe the next, but if the team doesn’t come up with something a lot better in right in the near future, we’ll see way too much of Milledge.
Just because the guy was a “star” in HS and travel teams as a teenager, and because he was NY’s uber-prospect for a few years, does not mean that several years removed from it that we should believe he’s going to get better.
If anything, his speed is declining and his lack of power since last year’s injury are a couple telltale signs that he won’t.
I hope he continues to give us something useful for a while longer, but I wouldn’t count on it.
The way the team is currently situated....
He has more than earned the spot in RF. If you are saying that Church deserves more at-bats and to have RF, you are mistaken.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
not
we should be playing GFJ in RF, and Pearce at 1B for our best lineup. You can play Milledge if you want in a losing season to see if he turns some unexpected corner, but in general, he certainly hasnt earned much…
And, Pearce has?
Milledge’s season in 2008 is better than anything Pearce has put up.
But, my point is not to diminish Pearce. He has shown an improve presence at the plate and I want him up on the team getting at-bats…….at-bats that could easily be gotten by getting rid of Church.
Also, Jones is a much better 1B than he is a RF, while still being passable in the latter. I prefer Milledge, heavily based on his 2008 season and watching him this year, but I want Pearce getting at-bats as well.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Instead...
Pearce is playing 3B in Indy again tonight. Maybe the Pirates are trying to save plane fare and will have him meet the team in Chicago on Monday?
Cabrera
I never said Church should get ABs in right in front of Milledge, most definitely not when they get back to NL play next week.
As a matter of fact, I said in another post the other day that Church may very well be gone after the Oakland series with his atrocious hitting.
Yes, “the way the team is currently situated,” Milledge is the starter, but he hasn’t earned it. He is playing most nights by default.
The Bucs need to find someone better by next year, and Milledge has no more future with the club than as a backup for a while.
"Well, didn’t anyone think that there must have been more to his problems in NY and Washington than have been reported?"
Because there’s no evidence that that’s true, and all of the “controversies” about him in the past have been about stupid ticky-tack bullshit?
Examples of said stupid ticky-tack bullshit:
*While in high school, he had sex (or sex-like activity) with several other high school girls, who were slightly younger than him.
*While with the Mets, he high-fived some fans in the stands.
*While recording a guest track on a professional rap album by a high school friend, he used a few swears.
*While with us, he wore the wrong color of laces on his shoes.
Etc.
I love that the first one is considered a knock. “High schoolers having sex?! Why, I never!”
Also, I thought his shoes were awesome. I had no idea there was a rule against it until he got in trouble for it, and in fact I was wondering why more teams didn’t use team-color laces.
www.stealingfirstbase.com
I can see why this:
*While in high school, he had sex (or sex-like activity) with several other high school girls, who were slightly younger than him.
would be a problem for an organization that once employed Kris Benson, Jason Kendall and Brian Giles. Look what happens when ballplayers learn about sex before they are married.
They Yankees win because of their character. It’s always been that way.
Steve Z
Yep...
They Yankees win because of their character. It’s always been that way.
Their payroll doesn’t have anything to do with it.
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jun 26, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
His high school was a religious school.
Which was part of the problem. And there was a little bit of an age gap with a few of the girls. But still, there’s a time to be reasonable about these things. When my dad was a high school freshman, he dated a senior girl for about half a year. Was she abusing him?
Vlad
I’ll grant you that nothing else was said directly in the press about him, but I still think there must have been a good bit more going on with his work ethic and attitude that made him easily expendable to both teams in the end.
With Washington, it's possible.
Though I don’t share your view. But New York was making such generally spastic decisions at that point that I don’t know that them unloading him could be construed as any kind of implicit condemnation.
What would you consider all hell breaking loose?
I’m just curious. Cutting guys? Firing coaches? Lashing out through the media? If these keep losing at a staggering rate and this does come to a boiling point, what would you expect to see?
Good Question....
and honestly I don’t have a good answer. I can’t see any JR firing any of his coaches without either resigning or getting the axe himself and I guess I still don’t see that happening. I think there is zero chance NH gets fired before the end of the season and doubt it even then (he has to sign the draft class before all else.)
As an outsider it doesn’t appear that the team has any “bad apples.” But, those things rarely have a light shone on them until it happens all at once and is so bright that something has to be done. Maybe it is just continued roster maneuvering such as calling up Pearce and DFAing Church or DY. Maybe it is more. It just seems new to have JR get animated over a silly call that was clearly fair and get tossed last weekend and then to have Varsho have two or three spats with players while at the same time DK says the tension is the highest he has seen during his six (very poor) seasons on the beat.
Evidently,
Cedeno has been hanging his head (not literally) in the clubhouse…but it wasn’t clear if it was the cause of, or the result of, the spat with Varsho. Even NH had a comment on it several days ago.
I suspect we will see a player move in the next few weeks that will look out of place on the surface. But I’d guess there’s more going on than the Milledge and Cedeno dustups.
This is an "Oh, look, a rabbit!" story...
…until proven otherwise. The press trying to make something out of nothing.
You are, IMO, mistaken to conflate “fundamental mistakes” and “a lack of hustle”. They’re two very different animals.
Not sure what you mean......
I’m not conflating them intentionally. I think they are both issues and Varsho may be blowing up at two different guys for different reasons.
We just haven’t heard much of this during JR’s tenure, so it seems like something new to me.
They're issues that result from two different causes.
And as such, the optimal method of handling them is different. A lack of hustle is a disciplinary matter, handled through punitive means, while fundamental mistakes are more often a matter of poor instruction/technique (particularly in this case, where the coaching staff has already fingered Washington/New York’s coaches as having done a poor job with him as a young player), best handled through additional instruction and non-game practice.
Also, while stupid-but-honest mistakes can be frustrating on a case-by-case basis, I think it’s easy for the fans to tolerate that on some level as long as the player is giving a legitimate effort and working to improve. Whereas there’s never any excuse for a lack of hustle (purely as a matter of personal character), and fans will (rightly) turn on a guy who displays it pretty much every time that it happens.
Although....
also not sure Milledge might not be showing some of both. And maybe he is brustling at the feedback—but that is totally speculation on my part.
+1
This piece makes no sense to have been written and to have been placed on the front page.
This is more ‘piling on’ from a poster that has a history of doing so. Again, this is the same guy who wrote a mind-numbingly misinformed post about his concerns for the Pirates, where he was soundly defeated, both in argument and in logic, within the comments section.
This is a normal/routine flap that happens between teammates/players v. coaches on a much more consistent basis than this poster realizes, probably at the result of never being on a team in competitive sports. Dust-ups, which is what this is, are actually encouraging from my perspective because it shows that all parties aren’t satisfied with simply getting a paycheck.
Milledge does have some issues with fundamentals, especially baserunning and especially routes to the ball in the outfield. So do a lot of people.
He also hustles every game, and, most of his mistakes are of the variety of trying to do much, as opposed to being lazy.
This article is aptly described by JRs original comment on the dust-up: No big deal.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
How does this guy have a radio show?
And, no…..I am not tuning in, especially if this type of thinking is what I have to look forward to.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Why don't you....
take a look at the over 80 posts or over 2000 comments I have made on this site. If you are referring to my post about the PIrates reaching new lows and my concerns about them, that I posted ten days ago, I only ask where you find me so misinformed?
“Mind-numbingly misinformed”? “Soundly defeated”? Are you practicing for a high school debate team or something? I don’t agree with everything dtoddwin says, but he’s a good writer. Calm down.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 25, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of people are 'good writers'.....
but, that doesn’t mean they know the Pirates and the sport.
dtoddwin also said that Lopez is pitching well this year, and, pointed to his ERA as evidence of the same. He also flippantly made reference to his bad K/BB ratio, which he was apparently of the opinion was no big deal.
I’m not practicing for a high school debate, but, if someone is going to make a mountain out of something very minor, I would think a blog as well run and as popular as this wouldn’t give him the ‘airtime’ to complain.
As Vlad said, this is “nothing to see here”. I especially liked the part he glossed over about Milledge heating up at the plate during the month of June. Kind of like Cook the other day throwing out the fact that NH has had good drafts from everyone’s pespective….just to show his ‘balance’.
This is nothing….and his article added nothing.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Now you're pissing me off....
because you are flat out lying. Here is your exact comment and my response:
I think you are overstating his May….
just like I may be overstating his incompetence. In any event, he isn’t doing the job, neither by way of conventional stats, nor his peripherals.
And, again, if you are saying he has been good, which is a relative term, that just tells you how bad that the others have been.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 13, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
He isn’t doing the job….
by neither conventional stats?
Really how ’bout the conventional stats of ERA 1.96 or WHIP 1.304 or H/9 of 7.0 or HR/9 of 0.4.
Yes his strikeout and walk numbers are not good, but you are not paying attention to the actual results. In May he pitched 12 times for a total of 10.2 innings, gave up one run, walked two, struck out six, gave up six hits, batters hit .162 against him and slugged .280. Had an OPS of .508 for 42 batters in all.
Not only was he not awful, he was fantastic.
by dtoddwin on Jun 13, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I cited a conventional stat like ERA because you said “…he isn’t doing the job, neither by way of conventional stats, nor his peripheral (sic).”
Dude seriously you clearly aren’t getting passing marks on the reading comprehension part. How am I in any way “complaining?”
As for glossing over Milledge, I would think, “Certainly Milledge has earned the opportunity to play every day…” might have caught your eye.
Actually, as far as I can tell all dtoddwin said was that Lopez has not been “awful” this year. I don’t see how that could possibly even be considered controversial. And yet here you are bringing that up in another thread as evidence that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Again: calm down.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 25, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL.....
I have no problem if you choose not to listen to me on the radio. I have no problem with you choosing to disagree with my argument or my logic or illogical arguments as you may find them to be such.
I do have a problem with you characterizing my position as something other than what it is. I have been a HUGE supporter of the front office both on this site and over the airwaves, and of Neal Huntington in particular…..to the point that sometimes I question my own logic as that of being a hopeful fan rather than a rational analyst.
Having been an the captain of a Division I sports team that was ranked in the top 15 in the country, having been an all-state high school athlete and four sport letter winner, having gone to an Ivy League college and graduate school and having more than 20 years of experience in the business world I’d back off a bit before questioning my chops.
And just for the record.....
since you seem so eager to defend your position, what do you see as piling on in my opinion?
Are you still on the Andy LaRoche bandwagon, dtoddwin?
Your argument in your post a couple of weeks ago falls pretty hard now that the season has progressed a little further.
I would still love to hear your explanation on Lopez being ‘fantastic’ (your words).
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Which bandwagon.....
would that be? The one from twenty posts in April and May questioning why the Pirates weren’t having Andy take ground balls at second base because Pedro was going to come up and play third soon enough? Or was it a bandwagon you would like to make up and attribute to me?
But, just to clear it up for all to see, why don’t you tell me which argument you are referring to so I can respond appropriately.
And just for the record, I hardly consider myself infallible—in fact far from it. I’ve been wrong more times than I care to count. And I will hopefully acknowledge and admit as much when I am. No problem. We’re discussing the Pirates, not world famine or underfunded schools. Why the vitriol man?
The one....
Where you said that the Pirates should have been doing anything they could to get Andy grounballs at 2B, presumably to play there when Alvarez got called up.
In my opinion, Andy LaRoche should be where he is at…..on the bench. You have made several posts questioning Milledge, yet you are still clamoring (or were at the time) for LaRoche to be playing. Why does Andy get the pass and Lastings does not?
You cite the Iwamura move as a mistake, yet you say you were on board with it at the time. You cite the Eveland acquisition/trade as a mistake, yet you don’t explain how that move has done anything to ‘cause all hell to break loose’. You cite an ‘about-face’ regarding bringing Pedro up, yet NH had repeatedly said that when Pedro is ready they will call him up, something entirely consistent with what happened. You cite the contract extensions handling as somehow indicative of all ‘hell breaking loose’, but fail to point to a causal relationship. In one thread, you say that hindsight is 20/20 (acknowedging that you can’t know what you know at the time you need to know it) but then go one to fault the Iwamura trade – yet, you liked it at the time. You seem to fault the FO for them not having a back-up plan if Iwamura fails, yet fail to realize a lot of teams would be screwed if their second baseman totally hit half the average and the OBP that he did in years past. But, more to the point, they did have a back-up plan….just one that you didn’t like, which involved playing DY there, or, Crosby there (as the MIF back-up). Then, you couple both of those faults and basically say the FO should have seen the Neil Walker emergence. How could they have? Based on his history? Also, once they saw his approach at the AAA level, is it that far out of the question that they then started believing that he could play it at the ML level? You cite NH’s comments that he would be a spot starter at the corners, yet fail to take into account the possibility that they didn’t want to say their exact plan in the media or to Neil himself, in essence giving up their strategy and affecting both Iwamura and Walker’s psyche? As I said in the other post, telling Walker that he will be the starting 2B would have been ludicrous, and, presumably, would have been the impetus from a post from you questioning what Walker had done to deserve the position. You don’t think they knew by watching him practice, not just in the games, that he would be able to do reasonably well at the position? You seem to imply, no, you state…..that all of the Walker thing happened by accident? Again, how do you know? What if they saw something in him, not just in the games, that would have made them reasonably confident? Would that change your mind?
It seems to me that a lot of people are trying to blame the Pirates being bad on the FO and the Coach (the latter doesn’t help, I agree) because the Pirates are bad. Guess what? Reasonable people knew they were going to be bad, knew they were going to be young, and new that, if they were going to have any success, some people were going to have to surpass expectations. You fault them when Iwamura, Church, Donnelly, Vasquez do awful……yet you say other players successes (like Walker) are ‘accidents’. That isn’t consistent.
Maybe they simply developed him in the off-season and in the first couple of months of Triple-A to get him ready for the Big Leagues. Or, maybe he got his head out of his ass, something they may have encouraged with their public comments on the same. Both surpassing and underperforming expectations happen all the time……
Anyways, I am calmed down. Maybe I am just reacting to the constant drumbeat of bullshit from the ‘journalists’ in PGH, and, now I am seeing it seep into my favorite blog. But, there has to be some pushback from my perspective.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay (and paragraphs are your friend)
Let me try to address this point by point:
1.) Yes, I argued repeatedly the team should have had ALa taking groundballs at second to expand his versatility throughout April and May (OPSing about .875 at the time) because Pedro was obviously going to play third so they both couldn’t play there.
That may have been the most rational argument I’ve had on this site in the past three months. Not sure what the issue is there. He doesn’t “get a pass” he needs to be able to play other positions if he is going to get any extended playing time.
2.) The Iwamura trade has proved to be a bad trade and yes I was generally on board with it. He has/had a one year contract so if he failed it was going to have a long term impact. Chavez is an avg. RH reliever and we seem to have those in the system and signed two more. No problem. I’m now saying it didn’t work out. I don’t think that is anything other than stating the facts, whether I was on board or not.
3.) The about face regarding the Pedro situation is a direct quote from NH cited by DK that Pedro needed more time to work on things and gave an extensive list of issues to support his case the morning of the day they called up him. I don’t have a problem with him not being direct. I just think it can be bad PR. Which is why DK cited the about face.
4.) Fair point on me probably over-reacting to the lack of a back-up plan at second. Coming into the season however, most expected Pedro to be up in by July. LaRoche was by far our best infielder on the ML club through the first month, yet he and the guy getting called up in the next 45 days were playing the same position. With the team unable to score runs I thought it might be a good idea to try to have one of the three best bats be able to remain in the lineup at another position, hence ground balls at second where Aki was dying.
5.) I’ve never said the FO should have seen his emergence. In fact the exact opposite. What I have said is I’m shocked to see what a good athlete he is and what a good defensive second baseman he is. And, seeing that, I’m surprised scouts in the system didn’t also see it and move him off third last year.
6.) As far as Neil and Aki’s psyche if you think holding off on doing something and then doing it five days later was the grand plan we can just agree to disagree. I think that is highly unlikely.
7.) “I said in the other post, telling Walker that he will be the starting 2B would have been ludicrous”—your quote above. So, it’s ludicrous, but five days later it makes sense. That is some SERIOUSLY bad management and can’t believe you actually believe that. How much do you think the starters “practiced” when they are playing games those five days?
8.) Yes, I don’t think the plan on May 1 was to have Walker be the starting second baseman on June 1. That is my view. I could be wrong. What is wrong here?
9.) Your paragraph that says, “It seems to me…..” is just wrong if you are attributing any of that to me. You obviously haven’t heard me on the radio or read many of my posts. In fact I stand to lose (will lose) $500 if the Bucs don’t win 75 games. I have repeatedly supported NH to a fault. That doesn’t mean I can’t think they say Walker’s early success coming. And, I’m rooting hard for the kid, but it’s been a month.
10.) I don’t fault any of the signings. They were all cheap and short term as they should be. Some have been okay, some haven’t. So it goes. Doesn’t mean you don’t score the decisions.
11.) You probably shouldn’t put me in the media category as I’ve basically had a Saturday radio for 2 hours a week for six weeks. Now things are getting bigger. I’ve been on this site actively for quite awhile so my comments and thoughts are easliy seen. Charlie is 100x more media than me, and I can only hope to do as well as I pursue this field.
Well I like you.
Personally, I think you’re a cutie.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 25, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
this is a pretty childish comment
in many ways. Charlie sums up my feeling nicely in his reply above…
Milledge has a right to be upset
over a blown hit and run. Howver, Milledge should be our 4th outfielder, if we can ever get a decent one to play rf. Shortstop is a vacancy that needs to be filled with a young comer; he can’t be any worse than Crosby or Cedeno – they need to go elsewhere. The coaching staff is a joke. If you don’t think so, look at what’s going on with the fielding, hitting (half of the team are automatic outs), and the pitching does not appear to getting any help. I hope something does blow up.
Tom Specht
I asked this in the game thread last night.
Exactly what is it that JR DOES as manager?
We’ve had several indications that most playing time is being determined by the front office. Especially when we are talking about non performers like Iwamura and Church. Batting orders and player positioning seem to be dictated from Dan Fox’s computer, or at least Gary Varsho. Pitching…a lot seems to come from Kerrigan. Ass-chewing seems to come from Varsho, or at least Milledge and Cedeno have felt his wrath.
The one position JR is intimately familiar with, Catcher, has regressed considerably over the last couple of years.
Modern managers aren't supposed to have much authority.
It’s just the way the job has developed over the years.
Tell that to Cox, Torre, Leyland, Manuel, and Guillen. I am sure they would laugh at your comment.
"Being Fat, Drunk & Stupid is no way to go through life, young man", Dean Wormer.
Well, let's see.
Cox, Torre, and Leyland are all old and on the brink of retirement. They come from the last generation of managers, when managers actually had some decision-making power. And Cox, in particular, worked as his current team’s GM for five years, before he became their manager, so there was always some level of added authority built into his position.
Guillen is from the current generation of managers, so he’s a better fit for what I was talking about. He definitely tries to take a more active hand than a lot of managers do. And according to reports last week, he’s right on the brink of getting fired over a power struggle with his GM.
I don’t see any way that Manuel refutes my point. He’s a nonentity in an organization with no strategic direction. If he’s making decisions (and I haven’t heard that he is), it’s only because there’s nobody above him with a firm enough hand to control the show.
Now if only we could get our GM to shut up.
He made the comment along the lines of “With Steve, we’re looking at whether it’s better for him to get everyday at-bats down there.” about Steve Pearce.
Church, LaRoche, Cedeno, Jaramillo, Young are not able to get out of their own way with a bat. Milledge Is joining Cedeno in the dog house, there should be more of a concern to actually FIND hitters to take up at bats. And not an excuse to hold one that IS hitting, down.
Eh...
This type of thing is almost inevitable on a team as bad as this. Everyone is frustrated by losing all time and sometimes guys get pissed off at each other.
JR is right, it’s no big deal.
Answer: flying, AIDS-infected monkeys.
But on a serious note, this isn’t at all surprising. Anyone who’s ever been on a losing team knows how tense things get after a while. And believe me, I’ve been on a LOT of losing baseball teams.
JR
I’m not so much concerned with the lack of emotion he shows on the field as much as I am the “No big deal approach” he seems to be taking with everything that happens with this ballclub. No they are not going to win a lot of games this season, but it is important that when they do have a chance to win he puts them in the best position to do so. Bringing in Steven Jackson in the 9th last night, as previously discussed, was like waving a white flag. And that’s no disrespect to Jackson, he is what he is. I have seen him time and again over the course of this season make some very poor decisions in critical game situations.
It is important that this group of young position players learn how to win games at the major league level. The fact that they have a manger who doesn’t do this is much more damning to me than his lack of emotion. The Pirates need someone who is going to help these players grow, not hold them back and continue the “Its okay to lose” attitude.
Hey Greg...
… some nice inside info here.
Clearly, losing matters regardless of how expected it is. Perhaps we should consider it a kind of positive. I mean, at least they aren’t walking around like zombies, collecting their personal belongings like defeated men after every loss.
One thought about acquiring a bunch of once-and—former top talents from other farm systems (Young, LaRoche, Milledge, Clement before he went down) is that they are used to being on winning teams. Perhaps thati s what NH had in mind is accumulating them…
I’m glad to see the competitive fire. By this point, plenty of Giles/Kendall teams would be fully checked out.
So you think this team has not reached the “check out” stage yet? I totally disagree.
"Being Fat, Drunk & Stupid is no way to go through life, young man", Dean Wormer.
Not to defend using Jackson last night...
But very few managers will use their closer in a tie game on the road except as a last resort. For those of you that remember the second game of the year, Joe Torre did the exact same thing, leaving Broxton in the bullpen as Ramon Ortiz blew the game in the bottom of the 10th.
So, dumb move, but conventional and by the book.
Calling up Steven Jackson was the dumb move....
Acquiring him in the first place was a dumb move, as well.
He shouldn’t even be in AAA, let alone pitching in the 9th.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Why shouldn't Jackson be in AAA?
He’s carrying a 2.90 ERA and 1.45 WHIP there so far this year. Those don’t stand out as the numbers of a guy who’s fundamentally unworthy of being AAA bullpen filler…
Why do people continue to use Reliever's ERA as something important?
I guess Hanrahan has sucked this year…..
I guess Lopez has been good this year…..
And, pointing to a 1.45 WHIP, out of a set-up guy, in Triple-A, as being indicative of a good ‘track record’ is the height of absurdity.
He isn’t a ML pitcher. If he is a Triple-A pitcher, he isn’t a very good one.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said that he was a particularly good AAA pitcher.
Neither did I characterize a 1.45 WHIP as a “good track record”.
I just said that I didn’t see any reason that he didn’t belong on the team – which was your contention in the post to which I was replying. If you no longer want to support that position, then that’s fine.
You pointed to his ERA and WHIP.....
As being indicative that he belonged in Triple-A.
The first doesn’t tell me anything and the second isn’t very good.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Not very good, no.
But I didn’t say it was very good. I said that it didn’t indicate that he was unworthy of being generic AAA bullpen filler. Which it doesn’t.
Guys don’t usually get cut for putting up numbers like the numbers he’s put up so far for Indy. If they did, there would be a whole lot more empty roster spots right now.
I agree
There are people worse than him in Triple-A, and, if he is simply to be treated as filler, I wouldn’t care. However, when he is being called up, or on the short list to be called up, and, then, when he is called on in the 9th inning of a tied game, there is a problem.
He shouldn’t be smelling the Majors is my point…..
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jun 25, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Bring Back Jack Wilson!
Make a deal with Seatlle, and get back Jack Wilson.
Immediately, name him player/manager.
There is a man i would like the Pirates to have as a manager. I am sure he knows much more about the game, than the current staff combined. Though he has played on losing teams his entire career, he has seen enough baseball to know what works, and what doesn’t.
Sure, he has no experience, but Russell, after 3 years, still has no clue.
The fans would embrace the return of Jack Wilson, especially if he could take the reins, and turn this thing around. Russell would just be an awful footnote in Pirate history.
"Being Fat, Drunk & Stupid is no way to go through life, young man", Dean Wormer.
And the award for “Yinzer Post of the Year” goes to…..
by TravisDW on Jun 25, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Until you find someone elses post to rip?
"Being Fat, Drunk & Stupid is no way to go through life, young man", Dean Wormer.
Probably.
But, you’re the leader in the clubhouse right now.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
Who said anything about popular?
no, that is not my point. A change is needed, yesterday.
Get someone in here who can relate to these guys. I think it’s obvious the current staff does not fit that bill.
Time to try something different. What can it hurt?
"Being Fat, Drunk & Stupid is no way to go through life, young man", Dean Wormer.
Jack wasn't know for relating to his teammates outside of Freddy...
I just think it’s funny how people think their favorite players (not talking about you now) like Van Slyke, John Wehner, Bob Walk or Jay Bell would make good managers without providing any evidence why outside of they would show some “fire” or something like that. If we were to make a change I wouldn’t mind them going after Freddi Gonzales or even possible Kremblas since he has coached most of these guys already.
We?
You must be related, or married , to someone in the Fo.
Unless you are part of the organization, you should not use the word “WE”. Makes you come across as a real tool.
"Being Fat, Drunk & Stupid is no way to go through life, young man", Dean Wormer.
So does using "the FANS would..."
to express your opinion.
Don’t deign to speak for the fans. Speak for yourself if you are going to call other posters on it.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 26, 2010 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions
"Get someone in here who can relate to these guys."
Just wondering – have you ever heard of Eddie Olczyk? And, if you have, do you remember how his tenure as the Penguins’ HC went? He is a case in point for why recently-retired players do not make good coaches, especially when the guy has played with his new players in the past.
Can’t believe I actually wasted time replying to this post.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
Ballet practice cancelled ?
Who cares about your time. People are talking baseball. Only the uninformed use examples that have no relevance.
I think you made the top of the YINZER list, whatever that may be.
"Being Fat, Drunk & Stupid is no way to go through life, young man", Dean Wormer.
Yeah we were talking baseball
Then you decided to throw in an (all-around) mediocre shortstop’s name into the hat for manager.
Steelers - Immaculate Reception. Penguins - Immaculate Rejection. Pirates......Immaculate Resurrection???
Bringing it back to the issue at hand
…..Pearce called up and put at 1B. GFJ back in RF with his above average arm. Now you replace our 4th outfielder with the best stick on the team. You may lose a bit on defense at 1B, but you add a bat that was heating up and by all indications at AAA, continuing the trend. Now, put Alvarez 5th and Pearce 6th. At that point, you should have an offense with the capability of putting up at least 4-5 runs per game.
Now if our pitching staff could just limit the other team to 3-4 runs per game….wait a minute, that would require a quality start. Never mind – we’re screwed!
From what I’ve seen and heard, Pearce may actually be an improvement over Jones at first – and that’s not a slight against GFJ.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
What is your point?, or did you forget to include one?
"Being Fat, Drunk & Stupid is no way to go through life, young man", Dean Wormer.
His point...
…was that (in his opinion) Pearce might be an improvement on Jones at first.
It seemed like he stated it pretty clearly to me.
Yeah, his point was pretty clear. It would take a real bone head to not realize what he was trying to say.
Can I get some recs for that pun, eh?
by ryebr3ad on Jun 25, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Pearce's Defense at 1st
Is very good from what I have seen. I think you not only make the defense better by a Pearce 1B Jones RF situation but Pearce will give you everything that Milledge does with the bat I think and probably a little more.
I have defended Milledge for a while and still think that he deserves to be in the lineup but this would not upset me in the least if they gave more PT to Pearce.’
Of course all of this is moot until Pearce actually returns, and listening to NH that is no sure thing.
Pearce in at 1B
and Milledge to DH is the best order for me… i havent watched the last few games though… is Andy getting any AB?
I wonder what’s going on there…
maybe his ass hurts from being benched
by Chucksberries on Jun 25, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, so he's not getting any ABs?
I wasn’t speculating about issues (although there likely may be some), I was asking since I dont know if he had ABs or not!
high light reel
Lastings slowed and dove to make it on web-gems.
Point made on radio today
that perhaps Edge just lost the ball. “White ball, white sky” was the term used.
Not defending it, since I didn’t see it.
Just sayin’.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 26, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I think
they were talking about the triple.
Only heard about 2 mins of the conversation before I hadda deal with some meathead customer.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 26, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Notice how this post is about tension between Pirates players/management...
…and the comments themselves are getting pretty tense. It rubs off!
Don't know if this was established above,
but Chuck Finder mentioned today that the hit and run was Crosby’s fault not Milledge’s.
by thefutureisnear on Jun 25, 2010 8:26 PM EDT reply actions
It's also mentioned
in one of the articles on the Pirates web page. I’m guessing that it was Milledge that got pissed off about Crosby missing the sign. And that any ass chewing that Milledge got, if he got any, was after the flyball in the 7th.
Milledge’s base running and fielding appears to be perception vs. numbers.
The perception, based on watching the games, is that Milledge is doing very badly in both. The reality, in the statistics, is a bit different. His UZR the past 2 years (link), which measures fielding components, is at basically neutral, or zero. That’s close to most ML outfielders.
Similarly, his base running has cost us all of 1 run compared to the average player with the same number of opportunities (taken from baseball prospectus).
The question is still “can he continue to hit like a ML regular like he has the past 6 weeks?”. If he can, great. If he can’t, he’ll be DFA’d or traded before the end of the year.
But Milledge’s small negatives in defense and base running (if they don’t get worse) will not make enough of a difference if he keeps batting well.
Are You Serious?
You can talk zone ratings and metric measurements all you want, but anyone with the slightest knowledge and understanding of the game can tell you that he is poor defensively, slow and bad on the bases, and has absolutely no power.
His small negatives will not make a diff if he keeps batting well? It is that kind of thinking that has kept this franchise in the cellar for so long.
It is not perception—it is reality.
by Wee Willie Wallace on Jun 26, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
You can talk zone ratings and metric measurements all you want, but anyone with the slightest knowledge and understanding of the game prone to making rash decisions and jumping to conclusions based on a half season’s worth of evidence can tell you that he is poor defensively, slow and bad on the bases, and has absolutely no power.
I fixed it for you.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 26, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
No Need SmartA**
Cheese -
Thanks for TRYING to fix my post, but I am quite capable of making my point without your help. “Prone to making rash decisions and jumping to conclusions based on a half season’s worth of evidence.” Uh…………………..no. First, Milledge has been with the Pirates for a year now. Before that, Washington. Before that, New York. —my point is hardly a rash decision based on a major league career’s-worth of failure. Do your homework the next time before you go correcting someone.
by Wee Willie Wallace on Jun 26, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, and as stated above, based on the career numbers, he has been an average fielder. So what are you basing your opinion on? Watching him? Because that would be the half season rash decision I was talking about. I didn’t hear anyone saying he was a poor fielder who was slow, powerless and bad on the bases then, so I can only assume you’re basing it off this season. Especially since the career numbers disagree.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 26, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
But I do apologize for being a snarky jerk about it.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 26, 2010 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
milledge
lets not forget lastings breaking into hos homerun trot on the double off the wall—only to get thrown out between second and third.
by Wee Willie Wallace on Jun 26, 2010 4:35 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah, how dare he get fooled on that play!?!
I mean, it’s not like it also fooled the outfielder who was playing the ball. And the fireworks operator. And the radio announcers for both teams. (Link.)
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