SB Nation Pittsburgh Editor's Pick
The Gang of Four
4-2 since the break, the Pirates have outscored opponents 50-26. It's only a few games, but there is finally a glimmer of hope. The four guys below are providing much of it. Lastings Milledge is included because of the tear he's been on since June and manager John Russell's decision to re-anoint him a starting outfielder.
|
Player |
G |
PA |
AB |
R |
H |
HR |
RBI |
BB |
K |
BA |
OBP |
SLG |
OPS |
OPS+ |
|
Jose Tabata |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Season |
35 |
158 |
143 |
20 |
38 |
1 |
12 |
15 |
20 |
.266 |
.335 |
.364 |
.699 |
90 |
|
July |
16 |
72 |
65 |
12 |
19 |
0 |
8 |
7 |
8 |
.292 |
.361 |
.385 |
.746 |
-- |
|
Neil Walker |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Season |
42 |
182 |
169 |
23 |
53 |
3 |
19 |
9 |
35 |
.314 |
.346 |
.462 |
.808 |
117 |
|
July |
14 |
62 |
57 |
7 |
20 |
0 |
7 |
3 |
13 |
.351 |
.387 |
.456 |
.843 |
-- |
|
Pedro Alvarez |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Season |
30 |
120 |
108 |
15 |
28 |
7 |
20 |
11 |
41 |
.259 |
.325 |
.509 |
.834 |
122 |
|
July |
16 |
69 |
62 |
12 |
21 |
7 |
15 |
7 |
19 |
.339 |
.406 |
.742 |
1.148 |
-- |
|
Lastings Milledge |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Season |
80 |
304 |
274 |
29 |
78 |
3 |
30 |
26 |
48 |
.285 |
.351 |
.401 |
.752 |
104 |
|
July |
12 |
45 |
43 |
9 |
15 |
2 |
6 |
2 |
4 |
.349 |
.378 |
.558 |
.936 |
-- |
|
June 1-Present |
34 |
125 |
113 |
15 |
38 |
3 |
15 |
11 |
22 |
.336 |
.395 |
.522 |
.917 |
-- |
To state the obvious, if these guys put up full-season numbers similar to their numbers in July a lot of good things are going to happen. Here are my takes: Warning SSS alert.
--Jose Tabata. At age 21 Tabata is off to a great start. Throw in the nine stolen bases and reasonably good defense in left and he has exceeded everyone's expectations coming into the season. I didn't think he would or should come up this year. Wrong. He's clearly ready. The question is what kind of power he will develop.
--Neil Walker. Walker is 25 in September and regardless of the outcome, this was a crucial year for his career. I don't think even he would have written such a successful story line coming out of spring training. Yes, it's 25% of the season, 180 plate appearances, but wow. He has hit line drives all over the field and has been excellent defensively at second base, even before taking into account his inexperience. HIs athleticism gives him a chance to be an elite defender in my view.
The small negatives are his K/BB rate and his platoon split, but that may be a function of a hugely skewed babip from each side. Second base is clearly Walker's job now.
--Pedro Alvarez. On draft day if you were asked to draw Alvarez's career timeline going forward, this is exactly how you would have drawn it. Reach the majors in May/June 2010 after the requisite stops along the way. Hitting four home runs in two days conjures visions of forty bombs a year into Pedro's Porch. He's been discussed endlessly, so I don't have much to add. His defense is fine. He'll be serviceable at third for 3-5 years. If the Pirates develop a stud third baseman the move to first could come earlier. He isn't going to hurt the team in the field in the interim. Pitch recognition and plate discipline seem to be improving before our eyes.
Seeing the early career struggles of uber-prospects like Matt Wieters and Justin Smoak should put up a big caution sign, but the rate of improvement since day one has been visible and dramatic. Early read: Exactly what we hoped.
--Lastings Milledge. Thrilledge. I'm officially on board. Milledge is 25 and like Walker, if not this year, his career may have started to pass him by. By no means is it a done deal, but he has been terrific of late. Home run totals are low, but his slugging percentage since June 1 (added to the chart) shows that he is definitely driving the ball. Defensively, moving to right makes life easier and his routes seem to have improved as well.
For the season he is right around his career numbers so it's important not to jump the gun based on the last six weeks, but he has performed better during this stretch than any other extended period of his career. As with Tabata, power is a concern and it will be interesting to see if he maintains his slugging percentage and if he hits ten homers on the season.
Overview: Going into the break on a six game skid with the bullpen, the season's lone bright spot to that point, blowing two of the leads didn't portend a great second half. Certainly nobody saw this offensive explosion coming.
First, at least now we no longer have to listen to the ridiculous quips about run differential and "if they continue on this pace......" If you get blown out a bunch of times early in the year, things get skewed. Throw in twenty more losses and the numbers are bad. But, it was virtually impossible that the "pace" was going to continue. Now it's a non-issue.
Second, the starting pitching is still a HUGE concern. Since the break the team is 4-2 and they've gotten one great start, three average starts and two disasters. They won both disasters. The bats aren't going to remain this hot.
Third, it still isn't about wins and losses, but it's more fun to win. It's all about the development of these guys. So far so good. Andrew McCutchen is a budding superstar. Garrett Jones continues to be fine. Catcher and shortstop are open positions going forward. Ronny Cedeno has a chance to keep the job, but I think he will have to have a very good during the second half to do so. Ryan Doumit is a huge question mark and now concussion issues bring his ability to stay behind the plate into play. (UPDATE: Doumit was placed on the DL tonight with a concussion.)
Fourth, the trade deadline is again going to be interesting. Paul Maholm, Evan Meek and Joel Hanrahan are the only guys I think will bring a top flight return and I'm undecided whether we should trade any of them. Obviously it depends on what the team would get. Starting pitching and shortstop will be targeted. The concern in moving Maholm is the need to replace him. Next year, through free agency, it will be hard to find someone of equal value for his $5.75 million salary and one year option. He fits the plan now and his contract is an asset.
The organization is chalk full of young pitchers. The addition of Jameson Taillon and Stetson Allie will mean it is officially loaded, with the caveat that most are a long way from the majors. Bryan Morris and Rudy Owens are closest to the bigs and they may not arrive until 2012. The good news: By 2012 "the pipline" that Neal Huntington has talked about should be in place. The bad news: Charlie Morton, Kevin Hart, Daniel McCutchen, Jose Ascanio and Donald Veal, among others, are going to have to come through if the team is not able to acquire pitching in a trade or through free agency. And it's important to remember when looking to sign free agent starters in the off-season, two years from now there may be a group of guys ready, with more on the way. Matching the team's needs with a player's wants may be more difficult than one might initially think. The Pirates may not want to sign anyone to more than a two year deal, similar to Ray Shero's philosophy about role players with the Penguins. That approach may substantially shrink the pool of players available.
All the team's other relievers will certainly be made available, but bringing most of them back next year is not a bad option. Again, it all depends on what is offered.
Hard to believe 34-60 could be this interesting.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Great post......
Throw in Cutch’s season, and, to a slightly lesser extent Jones season, and we have six very interesting pieces. 3/4 of our line-up are young (outside of Jones, who is still on the right side of 30) and can realistically be expected to improve.
Like you said, SP is the concern and will be for the forseeable future.
Pedro’s line in July is amazing……..(just wanted to add that).
C-DEATH
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jul 22, 2010 10:25 AM EDT reply actions
whens the last time
we had 6 young, legit MLB players locked in for 4-5 years, all of which bring something different, yet something very good to the table. future is bright, ladies n gents
if you mean 5-6 years, then yeah couldnt tell you the last time. cutch and jones have 5 years left while tabata, walker and alvarez still have 6!
but hey lets not worry about that now, im just interested in seeing us start to win
5-6 even better!
true i hope we can sustain our recent success. but its exciting as hell to think of the future around here, if we get the pitching we need
I’m assuming you left out McCutchen because his numbers over the same time period have not been as impressive, but he is, IMHO, the best all-around player of the five “Young Guns” the Pirates have and the one to build the team around for the long-term.
Still, even with his slump in June and July, Cutch has an OPS+ of 116 for the season, and that slump may be attributable to him pressing to generate offense when Tabata and Alvarez were struggling to find their footing, Walker was out and Milledge was only in the lineup every other day. If he can relax, have fun with the game and know that the entire offense doesn’t depend on him contributing night in and night out, I believe Cutch’s numbers will get him back to a 130 or higher OPS+, which will do incredible things for the offense as a whole.
To echo theatrain’s post, when was the last time the Pirates had this much promise on the roster at one time? It might not be next year, but as this group grows and develops together, we might be a couple of solid pitchers away from something special. Time will tell, but for the first time in a long time, I am legitimately excited for the future of the team.
that's most encouraging to me
Obviously, all these guys are not going to keep this up all at the same time, but I think they’ve proven that they can play and for the most part at least a little above league average at a young age…we’ve never had that before. This is good, this encouraging. Now for the starting pitching…
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
Nice post, dtoddwin.
I agree, Bishop, with a few good breaks on the pitching end of things, we could really surprise some folks in 2012.
Random uplifting thought: I know it’s way too early to think about this stuff, but next winter, when all the magazines and sites give their predictions for 2011, I don’t think we’ll be the consensus pick for last in the Central. Baby steps . . .
we have to finish the season strong though. not just have one strong week in july. dont want to be a negative nancy but had to bring it back to reality a bit. anyways i think we can easily move up in the Central this year.
Totally agree.
I wasn’t even speaking so much about the actual talent level as the public perception. Given our core of young players and the fact that the Brewers and Astros organizations are imploding, I would think at least some of the pundits will be picking us to finish in the 3-5 range, rather than automatically placing us sixth.
And I also realize that’s a phenomenally stupid thing to celebrate, but it’s just so disheartening when every single preseason report you read has us automatically inked in to last place.
To be fair
I don’t think we were a consensus last place pick this year, what with how bad everybody anticipated Houston would be. I could be totally wrong there, if someone wants to correct me, but Houston sniffed of mediocrity before the season started, and if not for some decent SP, they’d probably be much closer to the Buccos in the cellar than they are.
I totally get your point, though, Garrett. Would be fun to at least make a run into 3rd or 4th next year and not have it be a “What’s going on in Pittsburgh?” moment.
We could go 2 ways with this now
Move the vets (Maholm, Doumit, Duke, Dotel) and maybe Meek/Harahan and even Jones (although we’d have to be grossly overpaid on the last 3) and build for 2013, when our upper minors should be flush with talent and some will have already trickled into the majors (Sanchez, D’Arnuad, Wilson, Morris, Owens, Moskos etc.).
Our 2011 1st round draft pick (assuming we get one of the many college guys looking to be top picks) should be ready or close, whether its Rendon, Purke, Cole, or Jungmann.
The other way is to get ready for 2011.
- Trade for Carmona.
- Trade for Stephen Drew.
- Don’t trade anyone away.
- Sign a Free Agent Pitcher (I like Bedard)
With those move I think a run at the Central is plausiable in 2011 and if all of those guys are ours for at least 2 years, definitely in 2012.
My head says go with the first opiton. My heart after seeing those stats says go with the second. We’ll see.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 22, 2010 11:04 AM EDT reply actions
Not to be a dick or anything...
…but how do the Pirates accomplish items one and two without doing item three in your list of how to get ready for 2011?
you're not
I needed to clarify. Don’t trade any ML talent away. Don’t be sellers. Keep Maholm, Dotel, Doumit, Duke etc. All guys rumored to be traded away.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 22, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
But to get Carmona and/or Drew without trading away MLB players, they would have to give up higher-end prospects, and I don’t think this team is quite in that position just yet. NH spent the past two-and-a-half years restocking the pantry after Littlefield let the place go to pot, so dealing away the decent young talent he’s accumulated to pick up other teams’ struggling MLB players doesn’t fit into the strategy NH has espoused from day one.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see the team compete next year, but they probably should be content with improvement at the MLB level in increments while continuing to build and develop minor-league talent to step up when it is absolutely ready and the team is prepared to take a major leap forward.
Uh
why would we have to give up higher-end prospects?
Carmona
+
Young (26) and under team control for a reasonable price for 4 years
Sensational 2007
-
Never had great peripherals (K/9s K/BB, albeit he is a groundball pitcher)
Has been terrible since 2007
Had a solid 2010
I don’t know if the Tribe have any holes in their minor league system (SP, power corner bat, etc.) but I think something like Adcock + Grossman/Presley/Hernandez + Holt/Cunningham may do the trick
Stephen Drew
+ Probably will be affordable
+ Youngish (27)
+ Solid numbers the last two seasons after a good MiL pedigree
- Not spectacular numbers
- Needs/Should be moved (I would argue)
Worth more than Carmona and will a better return
I could see Owens/Wilson + Mercer/Cunningham + Presley/Hernandez may do the trick. If we have to do those two trades you pull the trigger. If they start asking for Morris/Locke or Von Rosenberg/Cain I’d be much more cautious.
We certainly wouldn’t have to empty our system for those players. If you look at what we got for Freddy Sanchez (I’m know convinced we knew Alderson’s stock was on the way down and that’s why he was available) or Adam LaRoche (Hunter Strickland and Argenis Diaz) that’s what we would probably have to give in return + a bit more oomph
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 22, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade for Carmona and sign a decent free agent pitcher then next year becomes much more interesting. Especially with the Brewers headed the other way, the Cubies are disfunctional, the Astros are already out of next years playoffs, and the Reds I see going backwards next year.
Define "Decent FA Pitcher"
Randy Wolf, after finishing last year with a career ERA+ hovering right around 100 (+ or – 3 points, IIRC), the very definition of an average MLB pitcher, parlayed that mediocrity into a 3-year, nearly $30MM deal with the Brewers. This season, to date, Mr. Wolf has earned a stellar ERA+ of 76, giving the Brewers a horrible return on their investment and making the Brewers’ previous signing of Jeff Suppan look like a bargain in hindsight. Luckily for the rest of the NL Central, the Brewers were idiotic enough to lock him up for two more years, leaving them with diminished resources to resign Prince Fielder and Corey Hart.
By comparison, Jeff Karstens, the man with a face only a mother could love, has given the Pirates an ERA+ of 84 this year, all the while making approximately 1/20th of Wolf’s salary. Is he a long-term answer for the Buccos? Of course not, but he is giving them better production at a fraction of the cost.
My point being, unless you’re getting CC or Doc Halladay or Cliff Lee, and the Pirates won’t be getting a FA pitcher like that, you’re better off scouring the bargain bins or finding cheap internal options. “Decent FA Pitchers” are almost never worth the ROI and, with their insistence on multi-year deals, are usually liabilities halfway into the contract if not sooner.
I really don’t have enough pluses to give here.
Jeff Suppan is somewhere nodding approvingly to your logic though.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Jul 22, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
So, there are no FA pitchers that could improve this rotation?
At some point, they’re going to have to spend some money on starting pitching. With so many of the key offensive players locked up at cheap rates for the next 4-6 seasons SP is where they are going to have to spend some money to make upgrades. There aren’t enough internal options at this point to do it all within the organization. Nutting and NH have said in the past when they were close they would spend the money on the final pieces. That time maybe sooner than some believe.
Check it out
Go about halfway down the page to find the list of SP who could be free agents at the end of the year.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/09/2011-mlb-free-agents.html
Are you back? Who on that list will significantly upgrade the Pirates rotation from the current available group (including those at Indianapolis) at a cost that makes sense? Are you willing to give a pitcher in the 33-36 year-old age range a three-year $20MM+ deal in the hopes they can be effective for all three years of the deal?
Again, I give you Randy Wolf and Jeff Suppan as Exhibits A & B as to why FA pitchers in their 30’s are a bad investment.
Your line of thinking mostly likely yeilds more losing or....
at least not being good enough to win it all.
Are alot of FA SP’s bad investments? Yes. Of course most FA’s are in their 30’s, most don’t become FA’s until their at least 28. Do we want to spend money on a mediocre FA SP? Of course not. Are there some good pitchers who will be free agents in the next couple seasons? Yes. Will they be cheap? No.
They need to get a good SP in the next two seasons if they are going to be a serious contender. The biggest impact for the dollars spent on this teams W-L record would be starting pitching. We have about 5 years worth of cheap offense and bullpen help that we think is going to be good. So where do you spend the money if you want to compete? On starting pitching. If they are serious about winning thats what needs to be done. If they don’t spend on starting pitching they most likely won’t win. We just don’t have enough pitching in the organization to be a contender IMO. Maybe some GM would be dumb enough to trade a near ready #1/2 type SP to us, but I doubt that.
Assuming Taillon signs and becomes an ace(a huge assumtion) he won’t have an impact on the team most likely for about 3 years. By then your window on the cheap offense is begining to close. No one trades a #1 until his contract season. Trading for a guy in a contract season would be a huge mistake and a misappropriation of resources IMO for this team. The best way to get one is spend the money and sign one.
Those three and De la Rosa are the only four I would even consider.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 22, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Bedard?
He’ll be cheapish and if hes healthy (a rarity I admit) he’s certainly in the conversation for being the arm on our staff (if not the best)
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 22, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
sure
his health just doesn’t give any confidence, plus he hasnt pitched in forever… i doubt he can come back with his stuff intact!
Trading Maholm is the wrong move ... this year
He’s a good SP and really affordable. If the Offense can continue to develop, Maholm may earn more wins, making him a higher profile pitcher (even though his stats remain the same). Which this time next year would be the ideal peice in a trade to get something valuable to a team that may crack .500 for the first time in 18 years.
Duke, Doumit, Carrasco, Dotel, Lopez, should garner enough for the team this year.
This team needs another strong draft which includes a top 5 pick in 2011, to really establish it’s depth. The only other player that IMO is a possible trade candidate, is Cedeno. If we could snag a SS from somewhere, I could see him being shipped out.
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 22, 2010 11:36 AM EDT reply actions
In addition
I wonder if the Pirates are talking to the pitching deep teams like Toronto or the Rays, about trades? Seems to me they may have something the Bucs could use.
I also read somewhere that Jensen Lewis may be a trade option for Pittsburgh. I’d have to agree given he’s 26, with 3 years MLB experience, and has good 8.2 K/9, 3.7 BB/9 numbers. His numbers this year have dropped slightly, but if Indians trade Wood, he’s def in their BP.
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 22, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
2 Year Role Players
I disagree with the 2 year contract limit for role players/place holders. If a good starter is agreeable, give them a longer contract and trade them later. If there is one thing that I fault the FO on at the major league level is limiting options with shorter-term contracts. This may have forced the FO to aquire lesser players at the major league level.
A few thoughts...
Great post. It gives me an excuse to get a couple of things off my chest:
1. Maholm is fungible. I wouldn’t give him away, but if you can make the franchise better in the major league or high minor league level then you deal him. Maholm’s value is primarily driven by his reasonable contract. I’m not worried about spending money to replace him in the off-season.
2. I think Garrett the Carrot is underrated by most. I’m not a stats guy, but I think they guy is a real solid, if unspectacular player and has a legitimate claim to being a significant part of the next winning Bucco team.
3. The time is fast approaching (like in 3 months) when the team needs to spend money to bring in FAs ala Dennis Martinez for the 90s Tribe.
4. I think the Bucs should be looking at this trade deadline as an opportunity to obtain some expensive and disappointing but not yet failed pieces (ala Stephen Drew). This trade deadline is about building not dismantling; it is about quality not quantity of youth.
Good day.
Mostly agree with 1, 3 & 4
Not sure about Jones long-term stay with the Bucs, though. He seems to me like a good at the moment fit. If the bucs (somehow) field better 1B and RF options, I see them trading Jones. RF would be easier to find than 1B, but you never now. Peirce still has some potential (as does Clement) to be the starting 1B, and then their’s Hague just around the bend.
Ultimately unless Jones can recapture some of his high powered ’09 in his future, I think the Pirates pass him over much like they have LaRoche.
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 23, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah....
….Jones is a nice player, but with his age I don’t see him improving or even maintaining for that long. That being said, he is the kind of competent place-holder/stop-gap that the Pirates rarely have. Meaning, you’d love to get someone better or get a young gun up there to replace him, but if you can’t, it’s not the end of the world.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
Anyone looking for NH to get canned this week?
Smizik where are you?
the lack of trolls here
the past few days has been a breath of fresh air
Since I've been tempted in the past
NH MUST be fired now or I will quit rooting for this team! And it starts by the sale of the team from a cheap “nut”-job to a spender like Lemieux and Cuban.
“Rabble, rabble, rabble” — isn’t that what they say in South Park?
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 23, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I would love to think one of Morton, Hart, Ascanio, or Veal could break out soon and help in the rotation.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 22, 2010 12:56 PM EDT reply actions
well depends how you define soon
none of ascanio hart or veal will throw soon, with AScanio probably the nearest
I doubt any of those guys help in the rotation,
but with Owens, Morris, Lincoln, Ohlie, Maholm, Duke, and Karstens, I don’t think we need anymore quality starters. Let’s find an ace, shall we?
I can see a 2-5 of Morris-Maholm-Owens-Duke, with Ohlendorf, Karstens, and Lincoln in the pen.
Nothing against Lincoln, and not based on his short MLB performance, but I think he would be much more valuable in the pen than in the rotation. I think he has problems with stamina, and his “stuff” would be more effective coming out in relief.
Ohlendorf is probably the same way, and Karstens is a great long-reliever. A bullpen of Meek, Hanrahan, Lincoln, Moskos, Ohlendorf, and Karstens would be terrific, if not the best in baseball.
Wow ... Ohlie in the pen
I’ve thought this for a while, but never had the nads to say it. It’ll be 1.5 years before that’s really considered an option though (while we wait for the stars in Altoona/West Virginia/Bradenton to get to Pittsburgh).
I see Owens ahead of Maholm, because I expect they’ll trade him before Morris sees the big leagues.
Also they’ll have to trade a prospect for a true #1. My preference would be that they trade an expendable ML position player like Jones, before trading a true prospect, unless they trade Alderson for that #1.
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 23, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
not to be a downer but...
while walker does look promising, he’s got a .370 average on balls in play, which is 50 points higher than his minor league best. the problem is, with his walk rate he’s going to have to continue to bat around .300 to be above average.
also, though it’s an extremely small sample size, his UZR/150 right now is -32.8, which is pretty much terrible. being that it’s only about 40 games i wouldn’t read too much into it besides that he’s probably below average.
don’t get me wrong, i want to root for the guy but the stats don’t paint an especially pretty picture going forward.
the BABIP will even out
the walk rate, as you point out, will be the key, and even though he isnt walking a lot right now, I am hopeful he will as he adjusts to the league, or if he starts to struggle, like he did in AAA. Of course, if he doesn’t have trouble and can keep hitting 330, I m fine with that :P
You are discounting his SLG percentage and his propensity to hit doubles.....
Which obviously helps his SLG percentage. For a 2B, who is slugging .460 or so, and, despite the SSS-induced UZR, plays a pretty solid/athletic 2B, he is pretty valuable.
I do agree that the BB rate needs to come up, but I don’t think you can just discount his hitting potential/results by basing it on BABIP, which, obviously, isn’t 100% luck either. He is hitting the ball hard, to all fields…..those guys usually have high BABIPs.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Jul 22, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't agree that his defense is that bad,
I really don’t like UZR. I have watched Dan Uggla play, and the worst he has put up is -11.1. Neil Walker is a much better defender than Uggla. There is no way he’s playing 3x worse than Uggla did in his worst season.
While statistics have come a long way in the past 10-20 years, I don’t think defensive statistics should be too highly regarded yet.
UZR is pretty useless for really small sample sizes...
plus Walker is going to have a learning curve. I think he’ll be fine in the long run.
And this is the problem
The defense (ha!) of UZR is that you can’t use it for small sample sizes (defined, crazily*, as 3 full seasons), but the trouble is that it doesn’t seem accurate for small (and arguably larger) sample sizes.
Small sample sizes are usually a problem because they’re not likely to be representative. Neil Walker is 16 for his last 27 (or something), but we all know that he’s not, actually, a .593 hitter. However, we do know that he’s been hitting the hell out of the ball. Whereas UZR, in his small MLB sample, is telling us the opposite of what we’ve seen with our own eyes. Everyone – even the NW skeptics – has agreed that he’s looked pretty good, but UZR has him figured as the very worst 2B in all of baseball – half a run worse (over a season) than Akifucking Iwamura.
Anyone want to defend the idea that NW is a significantly worse defender than Aki?
So you’ve got a stat that simply doesn’t seem to capture what happens on the field, but it’s the best anyone’s yet come up with, so it’s now treated as gospel, and we take WAR (and its associated dollar figures) as definitive when, even across large samples, I’m not sure we should buy a word of it.
- and I know why it is – the logic isn’t crazy, but the effect is
A lot of people misread (and misunderstand) it.
The dollars per win is pegged to the FA market, just about the most expensive possible way of buying wins for your team.
Right....
which is never explained by the people who use and is a tough market to pinpoint at any point in time, particularly with the wide variety of players out there.
Just because people misuse it...
…doesn’t mean that it’s not a useful tool, though. You can use a hammer to build a deck, or you can use it to break your thumb. But either way, it’s not the hammer’s fault.
I actually don't mind that part
If I had more faith in UZR, I wouldn’t have a problem with WAR and the associated value at all. Yes, people misuse/misunderstand it, but the bottom line is that free agency is the only way we have to measure how much wins are “worth,” because the market is utterly distorted in the pre-FA years. Like all markets, the FA market will feature bad deals and over- and under-priced commodities, but the (correct) assumption is that it roughly balances out.
Teams may wish that they could buy wins more cheaply in the FA market, but the evidence is that they don’t (a smart GM may be able to beat that system for a time, but the market self-corrects, and bad luck happens to everyone).
Think about it this way:
Over the course of a season, a modern everyday 2B is going to have what, 700-some total chances in the field? 300-some putouts, and 400-some assists? That’s a little more than the number of PA an everyday batter will get in a full season, but in the same general ballpark.
Walker’s got 43 games at 2B this year, about a month and a half’s worth of games. If you had a kid come up from AAA, knowing nothing about him, and you watched him hit for a month and a half, how confident would you be that you could peg his offensive value for the remainder of the season within ten runs? Have you ever seen guys play for a month and change, and had the feeling that they were better or worse than their raw stat line? Was Pedro’s first month-and-a-half representative of his level of offensive ability? And if not, does that illustrate some kind of fundamental flaw with accepted offensive measures like batting average or OPS?
“The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.”
You're missing my point
I’m not talking about projecting, or why UZR requires a long time span to accumulate adequate datapoints for a (reasonably) reliable determination. Pedro looked bad (or at least not great) at the plate when he came up, and his OPS reflected that. NW has looked between competent and superb at the plate since his callup, and his OPS has reflected that. In neither case does that tell us much, if anything, about what their careers will look like, but the numbers at least give us a reasonably accurate picture of what has happened within the small sample period.
Whereas UZR tells us that NW is the worst 2B in all of baseball, worse than Aki Iwamura, who looked bad to people who’ve never seen anyone play second base before (“Daddy, why won’t that man pick up balls that roll right next to his feet? Doesn’t he want to help his friends?”). IOW, UZR for Walker is telling us the opposite of what we can see with our naked eyes.
I have no problem with the idea that UZR (or another defensive metric) could tell us more than our eyes do – some guys look better or worse than they really are (see Jeter’s awesome-looking, but meaningless, jump-throws). But I buy that on the margins – X looks good, but is actually mediocre, Y isn’t athletic but he makes every play that he should. I don’t buy that a guy who looks somewhere between competent and good is really the worst 2B in all of baseball. And SSS is no excuse. 2 games is a microscopic sample size, but when OPS says that Pedro was a 1.600 monster on Tuesday and Wednesday, that sounds about right.
UZR tells you roughly what a fielder has done in that span of games based on that system, but it doesn’t have any predictive value on what he will do. If a rookie batter is called up and has 40 hits his first month, that doesn’t mean he’s a 40 hit/month hitter going forward.
Walker has been out of position on some plays, and other new second baseman mistakes like that will negatively affect his defensive numbers. But the athleticism is there.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 23, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
You’ve never seen a hitter taking good hacks during a slump hit a bunch of at-‘em balls? Or a weak hitter slip some bleeders through a defensive shift? In both of those cases, you’re getting a different numerical result than the guy’s offensive ability would suggest, but it’s not the fault of the metric. The metric just measures plays made (or not made).
Look at Lastings Milledge’s monthly splits this year. .570 OPS in March/April, .905 OPS in June. He’s still the same player in both months, with the same general level of skill. He’s just getting better results in the one month than in the other.
at-em
http://home.mindspring.com/~gearhard/pigunner.html
for the younger crowd that doesn’t know our proud past.
by karreemofwheat on Jul 24, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually
It certainly happens that players rip balls that get caught and that players bloop balls that fall in; this is part of what BABIP tells us. But the difference between .570 and .905 usually also relates to actual performance – better swings, better pitch selection. Just because LM is the “same player” in April and July doesn’t mean he’s performing the same way (Usain Bolt doesn’t win every race, and it’s not due to “luck”: it’s variable performance from day to day). Specifically, April LM hit 55% GB and June LM hit 42% GB. That’s not “getting better results;” that’s hitting differently. Doesn’t change the underlying talent, or say much about projection. But it does track with what we saw, which was that LM wasn’t driving the ball in April.
Now I appreciate Adam Reynolds at least offering a plausible explanation for the kinds of things NW has done (or not done) that have hurt his UZR. I still haven’t seen anyone take up my challenge to argue that NW’s actual MLB performance has been significantly worse than Aki Iwamura’s was. And again I say: if UZR says that Walker has actually been worse than Aki, then UZR is flawed. If OPS said that NW was a worse hitter than Aki, then no one would be talking about SSS and what it measures; people would be saying, WTF is wrong with OPS to give such an unrepresentative measure?
The argument is simple
UZR isn’t accurate until a large sample size (2 years to be safe) of data has been collected. While I’m sure some people may argue that UZR is accurate before that, the majority of intelligent baseball people I have come across will disagree and assert a very large sample size (much larger than say 3 months that people will accept for hitting stats).
If you want to define that as “flawed” or a failure of the metric, I won’t disagree with you. My point would be its the best we’ve got. Now the interesting question is why does it take so long for it to become accurate. How does fielding differ from hitting so much that it takes years of data to normalize as opposed to months.
To clarify before anyone says something along the lines of the following. For a batter, 1 week of hitting tells us nothing. Anyone could hit .500 and 3HR’s and put up a 1.250OPS over a 5 game period. However, when you get 3 months of data, it is usually very reliable. When it turns out to not be reliable, its considered to be a fluke, not a shortcoming of any metric. In fielding the thresholds are different. 3 months of data won’t indicate anything, and it certainly won’t allow us to identify flukes in hindsight. Again, 2 years will indicate real and useful data, and then, over more time some flukes that popped up in a 2 year evaluation will become present.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 25, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Last year...
…OPS did say that NW was a worse hitter than Aki.
And as I recall, a lot of Walker’s defenders did (correctly) play the SSS card at that time.
Sticking to my guns
:D
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 26, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
"That’s not 'getting better results,' that’s hitting differently."
And how do you know that Walker isn’t “fielding differently” now than he was when he first came up?
We don’t have access to the same kind of numerical microtrends for fielding that we do for hitting.
i didn’t say it was that bad. just probably below average, which is to be expected from a converted 3b.
and anyway
i’d be more concerned if walker doesn’t improve (though he’s certainly young enough that he still can and probably will) and his babip comes back to earth and he ends up with something like a .260/.290/.400 line. sure it’s better than aki’s showing but i wouldn’t call that a building block for a team.
Either he’s going to hit more flyballs (leading to more HR and XBH) or he’ll continue to hit mostly line drives and ground balls leading to a higher BABIP and BA. If he did neither and had a walk rate of 2-3%, that would be a concern.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 23, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm an eternal optimist
But this team is 34-60. I’m aware that the 2010 Pirates and the present starting lineup are not the same due to callups and the like, but they’re still losing way more than they’re winning, and there’s no top of the line pitching anywhere in sight. In no way should we buy anything at the deadline unless it’s only available due to financial restraints of other teams (Rangers, Indians, Dodgers come to mind with recent links to their players).
If Carmona can be had on the cheap, go for it. If Dee Gordon and Jerry Sands or a SP prospect can be had for Maholm+cash, with a reliever possibly getting another decent prospect thrown in, I’m all in for that package. But to truly be a buyer and not just be taking advantage of a gift horse seems like a move to placate fans instead of a step forward to me.
Just my opinion, and I accept that everybody has one.
I'd agree with you completely,
Except that if NH and the Pirates do exactly what they are preaching they intend to due this deadline season, they could still make some minor deals that continue to bring minor league (or ML-ready) help, even if not in the form of true prospects.
They could trade their vet BP for some ML/AAA SP depth. There’s a lot of SP depth out there to be had, many without the high priced pedigree, that, in this rotation could make a significant positive impact (former prospects come to mind). They could be had cheap, and could stick for 2+ years which is all they need right now.
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 23, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Just Curious...
When was the last time that we had 5 or 6 guys in the lineup that were there for the long term?
Right now, we have Jones, Walker, Alvarez, Tabata, Cutch, and (still a maybe IMO) Milledge. That’s 6 of 8 possible positions, and Doumit actually has a good bat for his position. If we can find a shortstop, we could have a very good offense. I still think that we need to replace Milledge with a power bat (in OF or 1B), but that’s a different argument. This offense has potential.
If we can put together a solid rotation, I think we could see a breakout team.
Jones is 29 and not very good.
Why is he here for the long-term?
Jones
had a 147 OPS+ last year and is at 107 this year. Calling him not very good is not accurate. He may not be the long-term answer, but he has been very valuable thus far.
It's entirely accurate.
Considering his minor league track record and his play this season, last year’s 147 OPS + is a fluke. 107+ seems reasonable to me, and 29 year-old 1B or marginal corner OF with a 107 OPS + is nothing special. I never said he sucks or that he isn’t nice to have around. He is nice to have around, but lumping him in w/ Cutch, Alvarez, Walker, Tabata and even Milledge is an error.
Ok....
but to me “not very good” means average or more likely below average. That is not an apt description of Jones’ Pirates career to date.
It's an accurate description of Jones this year...
He has average to below average production for a first basemen. Just the best option we have right now. Hopefully he’s just one torrid hot streak from becoming average to above average.
Not Very Good?
Anyone who can hit .260-.280 with 25HRs is a valuable player in my book.
If you were expecting Pujols, sorry that he disappointed.
Your hybrid strawman/red herring argument really weakens your rebuttal.
My expectations of Jones are irrelevant to his future value. He has value, but he should not be considered part of the nucleus. Pujols is also absolutely irrelevant to this discussion.
Jones is a player...
Who can hit 25 HRs in a season and drive in a decent amount of runs. We lack power hitters. We control him for the next 5 years. And at the end of those 5 years, he will be 34, just out of his prime.
How is he not a valuable player? He isn’t your franchise player, but he adds offense to the lineup, and there is nobody close to taking over his position. As of right now, I see him as part of the core group moving forward. If we had a packed outfield, and a power-hitting 1B prospect, then I would be the first one to say he should be dealt, but I see two vacant spots for Jones, 1B and RF. Jones is also a more valuable player than Milledge, so if we did have someone for 1B, Milledge is first on the chopping block.
34 isn't "just out of his prime".
Prime is ~26-29.
I think he’s got value, but I don’t think he’s “core”. Core players are guys whom you couldn’t really see yourself replacing under any normal circumstances, whereas I think Jones is more of an “until we find a better option” type of guy.
absolutely
Jones is simply holding a spot for a younger more productive 1B/RF.
I think Peirce is too old to be that guy, but there’s still hope for Clement, if only for 1.5 seasons. Not sure about Hague since he’s not had much power so far.
I’d like to see them draft a 1B. But I’m not up on who’s out there in College or even better HS to draft this coming year?
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 23, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
I’m a bit confused by
College or even better HS to draft this coming year?
First, you rarely draft a “1B.” You draft a bat and hope he can play somewhere else but if he ends up at 1B so be it. Second, if we are counting on a HS guy in next year’s draft we won’t see him till 2014 at the earliest.
Better scenario (and I don’t mean to beat a very dead horse). Draft Anthony Rendon next year, a 3B out of Rice, and a player some experts have rated above Bryce Harper (this year’s #1). Then, you move Pedro to first (where his bat certainly plays) and put Rendon at 3B. Since Pedro isn’t a stud 3B by any means, it doesn’t really hurt your team.
The issues with that are Rendon is (was, but ill talk about that in a second) odds-on-favorite to be the #1 pick overall. We pick #2 right now and while we can finish with the #1 pick, Balt is the clear favorite (harder schedule due to playing in the AL East, worse record to date, comparable talent). Also, I said was because Rendon unfortunately (for him more than us) a severe injury very recently and will be out until next spring. Time will tell if he recovers by then and has recovered fully.
For this year’s draft the best high upside bat we probably drafted that may play 1B in the long run is Jared Lakind (who we have not signed). Matt Curry, a college guy is tearing it up, but thought is his upside is limited.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 23, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
only said HS was better
Because he’d most likely have more ML play time than a college player (assuming player at each level matures to ML at same rate).
But thanks, this was what I was looking for.
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 23, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would
he have more playing time? I’m not trying to patronize you, I am just confused. Generally speaking elite guys out of college make it to the pros in 1-2 years (not including the year they sign). If Rendon were to sign with us next year (presumably not until the August 16th deadline) he could be in the majors by 2013, maybe even out of spring training. Think a Pedro Alvarez timetable (waited until June of 2010 after being drafted in 08).
On the other side of the street, elite high school guys will take 3-4 years. Don’t expect to see Taillon until 2013 at the very earliest and that’s still unlikely.
High School players will generally be slightly younger coming out of HS, but since most college guys are college sophomores of juniors and because they progress faster, its usually a negligible amount (1-2 years, and certainly not the 3-4 years one may assume).
Either way, our control over them will be the same (6 years) so you could even argue a college guy who is older would be better for us because he would approach his prime and be in it by the time he hits free agency as opposed to a HS (think Cutch vs Alvarez) who will just start hitting his prime (26-29 years as Vlad pointed to above).
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 23, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
So your saying
That a star HS player who start at 18 takes 3-4 years to arrive in the ML at 21-22yo.
While a star college player enters the minors at 21yo takes 1-2 years to make it to the Ml arriving at 22-23yo.
My point was that HS players offer more years of service than college players (on average). I wasn’t discussing player control.
I don’t think its fair comparing hitters vs pitchers, as each has different developmental paths.
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 24, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Even with Rendon at 3B, and Pedro at 1st,
Jones playing RF would bring more offense than Milledge, and if we were to play Marte instead, we would have an outfield with very little power.
Power, in isolation, does not matter.
Runs are runs. It doesn’t matter how a guy generates them – he could get hit with a pitch every time he goes to the plate, and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference.
+1
Home runs are the most overrated stat people think is useful since RBIs.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 23, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, Vlad I would love to be able to discuss baseball with you sometime, seeing as how you are among the most brilliant baseball minds I’ve come across in my short lifetime. I would appreciate it if you could send me an email sometime (I believe it’s in my profile).
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 23, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Be aware...
He’s painfully slow in replying to emails.
;-)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 28, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
My comment about power with relation to Hague
My comment had to do with the expectation that 1B’s carry a big stick, which by definition consists of power hitting or HR producing.
In Hague’s case it may not matter, as long as he can continue to hit for high average. At his age he can also improve his power stroke (bulk up maybe), but if he remains a high avg hitter, he’ll still be effective.
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 24, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Mike Jacobs (among others) would put that theory to the test.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 23, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
McCutchen, Alvarez, Walker, and Tabata look like building blocks. Lincoln, Milledge, Jones, and Ohlendorf are questionable.
I think of the latter
Jones is trade bait this time next year, milledge is still on the team but as a backup, and by two years Lincoln AND Ohlie are tried out in the BP
by Pensburgh Pirates on Jul 23, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
dtoddwin wrote:
4-2 since the break, the Pirates have outscored opponents 50-26. It’s only a few games, but there is finally a glimmer of hope
Hope? The only hope for this team is a new owner
Right
because you haven’t been told repeatedly that this ownership group has only been the majority owner since 07. and you also havent been told time and time again that they’ve invested the most money of any MLB team in the draft each of the last two season. you also probably didnt hear that they’ve invest millions of dollars in Latin America under this ownership. I’m just guessing you were unaware of these things because you never acknowledge that they are true. you just jump on the Smizik bandwagon of the ill-informed. Now that you are aware of these things, you can stop repeating your childish, ignorant calls for ownership change.
"Third, it isn't about wins and losses!" WHAT?
Horse Manure! The great Vince Lombardi said it best, “Winning isn’t the most important thing, It’s the only thing!” Wins create confidence, momentum, and an expectation of success. If you say you can’t, you won’t. If you say you can, you will. It’s time to stop focusing on losing Pirates seasons and start looking for Pirates owners, management, coaches and players who absolutely want to win and will do what’s necessary to consistently WIN. These last two wins against the Rockies show what happens when strong bats meet solid pitching. Two convincing Pirate wins. It’s not a whole season, but it’s a positive start. Let’s keep it going, huh? You’ve got to change direction sometimes to get back on track, and maybe now’s the time the Pirates stop losing and start winning. Why not? How’s come?
The great Vince Lombardi...
…coached in a league where draft picks became everyday players right away and the season was only twelve games long. Lot easier to turn a franchise around under those conditions.
And because the
Pens could have won a few more games and missed out Crosby and then that third banner would (most likely) not be hanging in our new arena.
Winning obviously is nice but sometimes, in the real world, can be detrimental. In a manner less extreme, as Vlad pointed out, baseball is much different than football. In a sport where winning takes 25 players and years of development as opposed to months (for rookie impact) occassional winning isn’t a precursor to more winning. Talent development is the precursor to more winning.
Also, it’s just not realistic. We obviously aren’t talented enough to make the playoffs.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 29, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
nice...
an apologist sluffs off a great coach and positive thinker. I doubt there is a picture of Lombardi in any of the Nutting offices. More like Phineas Taylor Barnum.
P.T. Barnum….the American showman, businessman, and entertainer, remembered for promoting celebrated hoaxes and for founding the circus that became the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus….and is widely but erroneously credited with coining the phrase “There’s a sucker born every minute”
If you want an actual argument
positive thinking doesn’t make it true. While inspiring, Lombardi was a great coach, not a reknowned philosopher. His teams won games because they were talented, not because they thought “winning is the only thing.”
If you just want to sling mud around, you try to be poetic and pointed, but people would listen to you more if you gave some cold hard facts. I’ll give you some examples of legitimate criticisms of NH.
1) The Jason Bay trade. The return was decent, but he took too much “ML ready talent.” When you get ML ready talent, it generally doesn’t have the upside of younger guys because if it did, they would be worth far more (if you have similar upside but are more advanced, you are worth more). We weren’t close to contending so why did we need ML talent. The notion of a stopgap, unless it costs basically nothing, is a bad one (at least IMO). NH also seemed to fold under pressure and deal Bay for a lesser return rather than wait.
2) The Miguel Angel Sano situation. I think he isn’t fully to blame (Sano’s Agent holds some blame) but the fact remains, he didn’t get the deal finished. For a talent like Sano and a system like the Pirates, there isn’t room to be playing chicken or making errors. Bottom line is, while Sano’s agent ran intereference, NH still didn’t “make the catch” (football analogy).
3) The Eveland trade. A head scratcher, even after Uviedo “washed out.” Basically trading upside for no upside.
4) The Matt Capps situation. Letting him walk was dumb. He could have been traded for something, even if it was a complete flier or simply MiL depth.
He’s not perfect, but he’s been very good, drafted extremely well, and had two great trades (Nady/Marte + Nyjer Morgan/Sean Burnett) and one good trade (imo – McLouth). He’s also been brillant with the pickups of Meek and Jones (and don’t forget Veal – which btw, anyone have an update on him? Do we still have him or what?). Those success outshine his warts.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 29, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think the facts are on your side...
…on the Capps example. It was widely reported that there was no trade interest in him once word broke that he was potentially going to be non-tendered.
You could, however...
…probably make a legitimate case that he should’ve been tendered and kept at his arb price, rather than bringing in Dotel. I wouldn’t necessarily agree with it, but it’d be a legitimate position to hold.
Yea, I'm getting....
a bit tired of DK saying how bad it was to let the Capps “asset” walk. They wouldn’t have both Capps and Dotel. They control Dotel for $4.5 million next year. Capps will most certainly be awarded more than that if he goes to arbitration in the off-season.
That is one of the reasons the Nats are looking to possibly move him and I’m comfortable arguing that today Dotel is more valuable than Capps on the trade market.
DK’s argument that they should have kept Capps and let him increase his value and then traded him is a strawman. You have to make decisions on people and evaluate talent all the time. You only have so many roster positions, so many innings that can be pitched. That Capps has pitched better than last year is nice. But in terms of evaluating the decision based on results, NH has a winner in the contract signed by Dotel and his performance vs. going to arb with Capps.
Another point....
I understand the reason NH got killed by many for the Eveland move. I like people to make a stand when a deal is made and not wait for the “answer” before providing their opinion.
This is WAY jumping the gun, but I really like what I saw out of Gallagher and Ledezma last night. Both looked like they were getting squeezed a little bit and have some control issues, but they were acquired essentially for FREE. Eveland cost an asset and we can continue to debate the merits of that, but I continue to like the FO’s effort to acquire guys at low prices and then see what sticks. And when people evaluate all the things the Pirates have done they focus way to much on the Jason Bay deal and way too little on the Garrett Jones, Delwyn Young, Eric Kratz and other deals where the Pirates have potentially acquired useful pieces for very little.
I am not excusing bad trades or decisions, but I think the focus often gets misplaced.
My point was
to explain that there are legitimate criticisms of NH and that
1. people on this board, even the most optimistic realize that and will criticize NH for the mistakes he made and
2. by using this he would be able to have an intelligent and productive conversation in which people would maybe (stress : maybe.. at this point) listen to him.
I will never buy that about Matt Capps. If Brian Bixler brought us Jesus Brito we could have gotten something of at least that value or more. Brito (or more) is worth more than we got from Capps, which was nothing. It was just bad and dumb. The ONLY argument you could make is what we could have gotten back literally wouldn’t fit onto our roster at any level (aka would have been less valuable/promising than what we had). There’s no way I buy it.
(P.S.) I wouldn’t argue that we should have kept Capps, however.
Also, not to come across as an ass, but is my opinion (both) unfounded and not respected by people on this board?
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 29, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
About above
Also, not to come across as an ass, but is my opinion (both) unfounded and not respected by people on this board?
Talking about in general on both accounts, not specifically. I don’t like wasting my breath if its pissing people off/making them scratch their head.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 29, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
On the whole, I respect your opinions.
But I’ve never seen any evidence suggesting that anybody was willing to trade for Capps. So in that absence, I can’t support your conclusion in that one area (as I stated earlier).
fair
enough. I’m glad my opinion are considered mildly useful =p
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 29, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Mildly useful...
…is really about as much as anybody can hope for.
Some day, when God strikes me dead for my Jones prediction, maybe they’ll use “Mildly Useful” as the epitaph on my tombstone.
Ahahah
best epitaph ever.
“Here lies Vlad… He was mildly useful.”
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 30, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Donnie Veal
out for a long time with ol’ Tommy John, I believe.
dtoddwin wrote.......
it still isn’t about wins and losses, but it’s more fun to win. It’s all about the development
That is true..however it confirms that the Pirates are a quasi AAAA minor league team. When it gets to the point where wins & losses do not matter, its time to avoid the team. Go to Erie or Altoona if you want to watch development.
I dont know how some of you can watch or care when wins and losses do not matter. As was stated above…winning is everything!

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