Your minor league top 5 by position
by shrowd on Jul 27, 2010 9:13 PM EDT
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PrintThought this would be an interesting way to get different opinions from posters on our minor league strength. Feel free to pick a position then rank the top 5 Pirate minor league players that fit in at that position.
My choice is the outfield.
- Starling Marte - tools to do it all and has been producing. If he learns some plate discipline he could become an impact player.
- Evan Chambers - does it all but hit for average and that is misleading. This cat gets on base at a .400 clip
- Mel Rojas Jr. - the small sample size and reviews have been excellent. He has excellent size and played in a wooden bat league. Should quickly adapt and rise up the system
- Robbie Grossman - very young and has all the tools. Faced with adversity he has rebounded and is starting to put up some nice looking stats.
- Exicardo Cayonez - bonus baby from the international signings.Results have been good so far.. speedy slap hitter who may mature into a legit cf with top end speed.
Overall the Bucs have some interesting OF and although it may not be or strength. It is far from a weakness and should have us talking their potential for many years to come.
OK.. it's your turn. Pick a position and give us a top 5 or feel free to critique my list and let me know who I left out.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Morris having a good night
5 innings, 2 hits, 8ks
That is GOOOOOOD to hear
We should probably spot start him from now on, and try to keep his innings down, while also putting him in position to pitch in the AA Postseason.
Pitching
1. B. Morris
2. R.Owens
3. J. Locke
4. J. Wilson
5. N. Adcock
I'll stick with the OF since that's what you went with....
1. Starling Marte
2. Robbie Grossman
3. Exciardo Cayonez
4. Gorkys Hernandez
5. Mel Rojas Jr.
Not sure what you’re seeing in Chambers, but to each his own..
Probably his patience and touch of power RE Chambers (plus he's supposedly good in CF)
I’m not sure what you see in Gorkys
If by coming on as of late you mean an OPS to the une of .532 his last 10 games, then you are right.
He had a good June, and July wasn’t the total disaster that he usually is, but he’s got a .668 OPS for the year. He’ll be 23 next year. I don’t care if he’s Bob Villa, if he’s not performing by then, I will have lost almost all hope for him.
You think Chambers has a better shot at contributing than Gorkys?
I think Gorkys downside is Carlos Gomez, great defense and light hitting. I think in the very least Gorkys can bring back something of value in a trade at some point. Chambers I just have no idea.
I think Chambers has a better chance at being an everyday player or decent 4th OF than Hernandez has.
However, there’s a better chance that Hernandez becomes a 5th OF defensive specialist/pinch runner than there is that Chambers sees the big leagues.
well
I d have Alex Presley in there, and behind Marte and Chambers… on the OP list
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
pitching
1. Morris
2. Lincoln
3. Owens
4. ZVR
5. Wilson
Bonus 5:
Locke, Cain, Moskos, Adcock, Lorin
Position Players:
1. Sanchez
2. Marte
3. D’Arnaud
4. Gorkys
5. Cayonez
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2010 10:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think I would have Lincoln at 8 right now.
And I’d replace Hernandez and D’Arnaud (especially Hernandez) with some younger guys in Bradenton if I couldn’t think of 5 better in the non-rookie leagues
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
I like his OF list.
I would flip Rojas and Chambers and Cayonez and Grossman, but I think he has the right 5 and pretty much the right order.
It’s not a deep position in our system (even with all the progress, what really is?), but that is to be expected with the graduation of Cutch and Tabata in the last 14 months.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Good Point
With those two starting there might only be 1 spot open for the next 3-5 years.The competition for that spot should be awesome. Plus it will allow that position to replenish itself.
We Pirate fans have a saying: "God created the Bucs to train the faithful." One cannot go against the word of God.
Excuse me sir . . .
I believe you are in the wrong thread.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
The question
still stands. How the hell did get to 3rd on a grounder to Ronnie? I missed that part of the game.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 28, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
should read
“did *Olivo get”
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 28, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
he didnt
he hit a double in his own AB, and then went to 3rd on a slow roller to Ronny by the next batter
Yeah, my bad
Didn’t mean for it to sound like his own grounder to Ronnie.
Still shocking he was able to advance to third with the ball being hit to the shortstop.
I'll go with relievers
For this one:
Moreno
Moskos
Watson
Aguero
Machi
I guess the Michael Dubee hype has completely subsided.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
Low WHIP, Decent Ks, Great ERA...
Why hasn’t he been promoted?
Unless the Pirates are taking a cheap shot at the Phillies here, I don’t know why Dubee isn’t in AAA. Especially after Thomas and Ledezma were promoted.
I like him
Just doesn’t throw hard at all.
He gets outs,
He should at least be a 6th inning guy.
Our bullpen, with Meek, Hanrahan, and Moskos, should be loaded in a few years.
Well, here's the bullpen for AAA.
I’ll let you decide for yourself:
Machi, Moskos, Thomas, Bass, Chick (signed to a minor-league deal yesterday), Jackson/Ledezma (whoever gets demoted for a starter), and possibly Donnelly (if the Pirates clear him through waivers and he accepts an assignment).
FWIW, he’s almost certainly going to be the next AA bullpen guy to be promoted.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
Fantasy Top 5 Starters
I’m really hoping that we sign Taillon and Allie, and also Heredia. That way, the top 5 starting pitchers would be:
1- Taillon
2- Morris
3- Owens
4- Heredia
5- Allie (I’d rank him low because of stamina concerns)
Wait
You’re putting Heredia and Allie ahead of Locke and Wilson. Eh, to each their own.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 28, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Middle Infielders
1. d’Arnaud
2. Cunningham
3. Mercer
4. Holt
5. Harrison
There is a bunch of potential behind these 5 with the talent in State College and below.
He and Jordy Mercer have been going back and forth from 2B/3B. Mercer had been competing with d’Arnaud for the shortstop fast track; d’Arnaud won that, and now it would appear the Pirates are having Mercer compete with Harrison for first dibs on major league utility infielderdom.
"plays second base like he was born there"
Flails around ineffectually, while crying and soiling himself?
I kid, I kid. He’s a very good defensive 2B.
Which might be an improvement over :(edeno
Zing!
No seriously, I was suprised to hear of his WAR this year…
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Since we are talking minor leaguers...
Dejan just reported that Gorkys is out with a fractured right ring finger…which explains why he’s missed the last few games.
Top 5
Starting Pitchers
1. Jeff Locke,
2. Bryan Morris
3. Zach Von Rosenberg
4. Justin Wilson
5. Rudy Owens
This is list is based more on MLB projectability then current stats. Absolutely love Locke’s stuff and believe he could be the best of the bunch with Morris not far behind. ZVR is polished for his age and you can’t really take his current stats into consideration (low minors, fastball control, etc….) Wilson and Owens I could flip flop, Owens better control, Wilson slightly better stuff imo.
My take
Which includes players already in the system
OF
1. Marte
2. Presley
3. Mel Rojas. JR
4. Grossman
5. Gorkys Hernandez
HM – Exicardo Cayonez, Chambers, Willy Gracia
P
1. Morris
2. Locke
3. Owens
4. Wilson
5. Von Rosenberg
HM – Moskos, Cain, Adcock, Lorin
MI (SS/2B)
1. D’Arnaud
2. Cunningham
3. Holt
4. Jorge Bishop
5. Harrison
HM – Mercer, Diaz, Jodaneli Carvajal
Corner Infield (3B/1B) (I really have no clue)
1. Matt Hague – Scouting report isn’t great but he’s gotten results with great plate discipline at AA
2. Calvin Anderson – Raw Power
3. Eric Avila
4. Alen Hanson
5. Walker Gourley (putting him here instead of SS/2B)
C
1. Tony Sanchez
2. Ramon Cabrera
3. Joey Schoenfeld
4. ??
5. ??
4.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 28, 2010 10:28 AM EDT reply actions
For catchers...
…you probably want Watts and Fryer as your other two choices. Watts can play, but he’s older and the FO doesn’t seem to like him for some reason. Fryer can play, but he’s older and out for the year with a facial fracture.
Ya
I had Fryer but didn’t bother putting him in because I don’t see him (or Watts for that matter) ever amounting to anything useful, at least that’s my first opinon.
Actually going over it in my mind either of them could become useful ML backups in 2-3 years when they (more Fryer) will still be on the right side of 30.
What do you think of my list in general? I think my biggest deviance is Bishop in the SS/2B category. I really love him. Also, a bit of hindsight would have me put Schoenfeld over Cabrera since Cabrera has been downright awful this year (.268/.316/.343)
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 28, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that on the corner IF list...
…I probably would’ve had Jeremy Farrell on there somewhere. Particularly given that Hanson and Gourley are more 2Bs than 3Bs at this point. If you wanted, you could have Matt Curry on there, too, though his sample in rookie ball is admittedly pretty small.
Dang
I knew I forgot someone. Farrell – no thanks, but Curry – yes. I could be off on this but off the late-round easy to sign college corner infield bats (that’s a mouthful) he seems to have the most upside and his MASHING right now. Am I misguided?
So overall pretty solid list?
Looks like our OF and P are our best which is both “bad” and “good”. “Bad” because it seems in the next 5 years only 1 spot will be open in the OF and someone may get blocked. That’s actually a good thing (hence the “bad” in quotes), since we could facilitate a trade. Good and actually good on the pitching, because we certainly need pitching.
The MI’s are intriguing and that’s good considering SS is a big ? (regardless of Cedeno’s recent success) and while Walker is putting his stamp on 2B its no guarentee.
As far as corner IF’s we should be good with Alvarez/Jones/Pearce. As far as catchers go hopefully Sanchez can get healthy and his high floor can lessen our worries about that position into the future.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 28, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
No love for Farrell?
I think he has at least as good a chance at a ML career as Anderson. I mean, they’re approximately the same age, and he’s currently out-hitting Anderson at the same level, while playing a more difficult defensive position.
Yeah Farrell > Anderson.
This, however, is more of an indictment of Anderson than an endorsement of Farrell.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Looks like our OF and P are our best which is both "bad" and "good". "Bad" because it seems in the next 5 years only 1 spot will be open in the OF and someone may get blocked. That’s actually a good thing (hence the "bad" in quotes), since we could facilitate a trade. Good and actually good on the pitching, because we certainly need pitching.
I disagree that the outfield situation is too good. The only prospect very likely to push a Lastings Milledge in 2012 is Starling Marte. There are some intriguing players in the lower levels, but many other teams have similar young OF depth.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 28, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess my point
was of all positions to probably have the most depth/upside when you compare and correlate that with our Major League team (2/3 “locked in” for the next 4-5 years compared to 1/2 at corners and .75/2 (giving Walker a .75) in the MI) outfield is the last position you want as “best.”
Basically, I’d rather have our outfield talent/depth/upside in our MI category because that’s where I think we need it the most. Hence the “bad” in quotes. It’s a ‘in comparison’ deal.
As far as Farrell he just doesn’t do it for me. For me at least Anderson has the raw power grade and if stuff somehow clicks (like really clicks) he could be a really really good ML 1B. In that category all of them have so many holes and flaws I’ll take ceiling over floor. Kinda putting my own foot in my mouth though, I think Avila and Hanson are so far away compared to Anderson, that he (Anderson) gets the nod.
Revised I’d probably go
Hague (again, hypocritically I think his floor is so far above Farrell and Anderson due to his plate discipline)
Curry
Avila (higher level)
Hanson
Anderson
Farrell
I’ll still take Anderson but ultimately it’s like trying to pick between Malta or Liechtenstein if you need another ally to start a World War.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 28, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Malta, definitely Malta
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
And who the hell is alan hanson
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Alen Hanson, not Alan
17-year-old Dominican 2B/3B with our DSL team. Currently hitting .339/.390/.458 in his first pro season.
Personally, I don’t think he should be on the 1B/3B list because he’s played more games at 2B than anywhere else, but YMMV. And I wouldn’t take him ahead of Farrell, given how far he is from the majors.
learn something new everyday
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
"I think his floor is so far above Farrell and Anderson due to his plate discipline"
Hague, career: BB in 8.9% of his PA
Farrell, career: BB in 8.6% of his PA
That’s not much of an edge.
This
I would define plate discipline as both the ability to draw walks and the ability to not strike out. Hague has a huge advantage.
Farrell career BB:K – .39/1 or if you like the inverse K:BB – 2.56/1
Hague career BB:K – .72/1 K:BB – 1.38/1
Basically, ya half and Hague has gotten better than (marginally) while Farrell has gotten worse (slightly) over the course of their careers.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 28, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh, plate discipline is not swinging at bad pitches (and drawing walks). It doesn’t have much to do with strikeout rate
Adam Dunn has a very high K rate because of a long, power-oriented swing – not because he’s swinging at bad offerings. His O-Swing% is low relative to the league Dunn has outstanding K-zone judgment, or at least historically he does.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 28, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't believe
All of this is over Farrell/Hague haha.
swinging at bad pitches can do bad things to your K-rate… never having watched Farrell play, I don’t know what is going on here, but it would seem to me that Farrell’s K-rate certainly makes him a less likely big league player than Hague
The K-rate won’t make a difference if the walk rates are the same, though. Especially with more power coming from Farrell.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 28, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Farrell's K rate...
…doesn’t concern me too much, in that he’s under the 25% line (though not by much).
It’s still possible that it might become an issue at some point in the future, of course.
Watts...
Is interesting. He’s hitting .246, but there’s a little power (.377 SLG, .131 ISO) and his walk rate is crazy (.374 OBP). And he doesn’t strike out a ton (19 K’s in 144 PA; actually, he has more walks than strikeouts), so his low average may be fluky.
But he’s not a prospect because even if you give him 30 points of batting average, that makes him a 25 year old in AA who hits a little, but not enough, and whose defense draws lukewarm reviews.
You forgot one..
Aaron Baker, he’s having great power numbers at west virginia with 16 HRs, 25 2B. A better K/BB ratio than Anderson and Farrell. I think he has a shot to make it. It just seems like college kids drafted after the first 6 rounds are written off as future backups, so it isn’t fair to sell them short. Basically those that are juniors being drafted. Like Baker Farrell, and Anderson, and others it’s a long list. What do you think of Baker everyone? And Noris as well from West Virginia?
you may have a point
I didnt know much about him, and even though that K/BB ratio is not good at that level, it could improve with time. I expect all the 1Bs will be bumped up a level next year, and then they’ll see who can stick…
Anderson’s stats are decent but that K rate is scary…
Noris- another ghastly K rate… good power it seems, but I dont know if they can keep it up… we’ll find out soon enough…
actually Baker's K rate
is under 20%… thats not bad at all for someone with good power, he would be much better if he could take more walks, and I imagine they’ll work on it…
kinda funny that our 1Bs at every level are fringe prospects.
He's
really old for his level. Hague is two levels closer, even though he is old and Anderson is much closer to an appropriate age for his level.
Ultimately though, its an uninspiring group.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 28, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
"college kids drafted after the first 6 rounds"
This is true – those kids will sometimes surprise you. Look at Morgan Ensberg, for example.
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