Trade Deadline Thread: Pirates Deal Carrasco, Church, Crosby For Chris Snyder
by Charlie on Jul 31, 2010 12:46 PM EDT
115 comments
UPDATE: The deal is done.
Dejan Kovacevic writes that the Pirates are close to shipping D.J. Carrasco, Ryan Church and Bobby Crosby to Arizona for Chris Snyder and shortstop prospect Pedro Ciriaco. Jeff Clement and Argenis Diaz have been recalled from Indianapolis with the departures of Church and Crosby.
Ciriaco is irrelevant - sort of a replacement for Diaz in Indianapolis now that Diaz himself is in the big leagues. Still, this is a pretty interesting trade. Crosby and especially Church have negative value at this point and the D'backs are probably just taking them to offset some of Snyder's salary, so the deal essentially boils down to Carrasco for Snyder. I still think the Pirates should be trading players like Carrasco for prospects, but in this case I think Snyder has a chance to provide enough immediate value to the big-league team to more than make this trade worthwhile. (This is especially true because someone like Carrasco just isn't going to bring back much in the way of prospects. If the Pirates traded Paul Maholm in a deal like this, I'd be angry.)
Snyder gets Ryan Doumit out from behind the plate, which is excellent. Snyder is a risky player - if his average declines much further, it'll be tough to play him, and as a 29-year-old catcher, some decline isn't out of the question - but he's a valuable offensive player now, with plenty of power and walks, and he's a much better defensive player than Doumit is. This looks like an upgrade to me. He's also under team control at reasonable rates through 2012.
John Perrotto wrote yesterday that if the Pirates acquired Snyder, Doumit would catch a couple of days a week and also play first base and outfield. Can we just reduce that to catching a couple days a week, please? Doumit's bat isn't good enough to play at the corners, particularly given that he'd be almost as much of a defensive liability there as he is at catcher. He can be useful as a backup catcher and pinch-hitter. It sounds like Doumit will be gone when the Pirates can let him expire at the end of 2011, if not before then.
UPDATE: Daniel McCutchen is being recalled along with Clement and Diaz, although McCutchen's promotion really has nothing to do with the trade.
UPDATE: Jen Langosch tweets that the Pirates will get $3 million from the Diamondbacks to help offset Snyder's salary, which might please those of you who think the Pirates are taking on too much.
UPDATE: The Pirates will have Doumit play mostly in the outfield. I really, really hope this means he plays sparingly, because having him split time with Lastings Milledge makes this trade a lot worse. Milledge's problem so far this year has been that he doesn't hit righties well. He needs to learn how to do that, and having Doumit out there against righty starters three days a week won't help. If it were the opposite, and Milledge couldn't hit lefties, then a platoon might make sense, because it's pretty easy to find a good righty bat to hit lefties. But if Milledge is ever going to be a real, everyday player, he needs to be able to hit righties, and the time for him to do that is now.
UPDATE: The Dodgers have acquired Ted Lilly, making a Paul Maholm trade less likely.
UPDATE: Dejan Kovacevic tweets that the Pirates are unlikely to trade Maholm, but could still deal Octavio Dotel.
UPDATE: Kovacevic now suggests the Pirates might be close to trading Javier Lopez.
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The inclusion of Carrasco pretty much ruins this for me. He has value on his own, not to get a 30 yo catcher that can’t hit his weight.
Diaz is Cedeno without the pleasant power surprises from time to time. The new SS may never be an MLB regular
Eh, whatever.
by fuzzynewq on Jul 31, 2010 12:55 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
People lamenting the inclusion of Carrasco in this trade are just plain stuped. It’s delusional to believe Carrasco could bring back a better prospect than the guy they got in this deal. Carrasco was non-tendered after a similar year last year, was unsigned until just before spring training, and finally signed a contract for less than a million. If he had any real value, he wouldn’t have been a Pirate in the first place. Teams are not going to give up anything of significant projectable value for a DJ Carrasco. Period.
You must be having a really bad day, because I just can’t imagine that you act like that and insult total strangers all the time.
What’s your name? I’ll pray for you and for your day to get better.
by fuzzynewq on Jul 31, 2010 1:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Geez
Over react much? If you’re that sensitive to people expressing their opinions, you have no business on the internet.
I am given to enthusiastic reactions from time to time, though I fail to see how it corresponds to business I may be doing on the Internet.
by fuzzynewq on Jul 31, 2010 1:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Personally I dislike when people say they are going to pray for you like they are doing you a favor. If you are serious then I recommend that you take a walk off a bridge but if your joking then I’d say its time to get some better jokes.
why?
If the person is sincere in saying that they will pray for a good thing for you, why wouldn’t it be a compliment to you, whether or not you believe in its efficacy? They have not imposed their beliefs on you any more than if they had simply wished you well, but rather have sought to give you a good thing in what, in their belief, is the best way they can. And you would have them commit suicide for this egregious offense?
If the person is insincere, wishing to assert some kind of moral superiority through praying for the aggressor, then yes that is obnoxious, but that is a hard thing to judge, and I don’t see compelling evidence of that in this exchange.
He didn’t insult you at all. He just said Carrasco isn’t worth much of anything, which is true. He just said it angrily.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 31, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose as\ lot of people would think being called
“stuped” (whatever that is) and “delusional” would consider it an insult but most of us here realize that such people are way too sensitive.
by WestCoastBuc on Jul 31, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to take what anyone says on the internet seriously.
It is not stupid to keep Carrasco, he did a nice job for Pittsburgh, I have not read anywhere that states that the deal was Carrasco for Snyder. I wish they could have held onto him and not traded him. I really don’t care what his value was to other teams, to us he was valuable.
He did a good job, but he’s really not nearly as valuable as upgrading at the catcher position.
Depending on how valuable you think Crosby and Church are, the deal basically comes down to Carrasco for Snyder.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 31, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
…and 3 million dollars.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jul 31, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d have no problem keeping Carrasco, but if you were to trade him by himself, the best you were going to get for him is a C prospect. The SS prospect in this deal is a C prospect. You aren’t going to get anything better than that for Carrasco. So it’s no big crime that he was part of the deal. If throwing Carrasco into the deal is what it took to get the Catcher upgrade they wanted (while getting Arizona to pay half his Salary) and at the same time unolad arguably the worst player in the majors this year (church), and an ok bench player with ZERO value on the trade market by himself (Crosby) then I don’t see how anyone should be upset at that. FACT: Pitchers like DJ Carrasco have no significant trade value by themselves because they are not that difficult to find off the scrap heap in the offseason as the Pirates proved this offseason with Carrasco himself.
I agree
Particularly because for the most part, contenders have decent starting pitching and don’t need guys like Carrasco who are long-relief specialists. Contenders are usually looking for relievers like Meek or Hanrahan who can pitch in high-leverage situations.
The fact is, a guy like DJ has a lot more value to a crap team like the Pirates or D’Backs than he would to the Phils or Braves.
You are probably right about about Ciriaco
There are real doubts that he will ever hit enough to play in the majors. However, he is very fast (70 on the 80 scale) and a superior defender. He was injured to start the year, but has picked it up in June and July, with an OPS over 700. To be sure, he’s playing in Reno, so that has to be taken with a grain of salt. He’s got two major league tools, speed and defense. He will never hit for power, but he might learn to hit well enough to be useful. The worst case is Diaz, which is OK.
Viva Clemente!
yeah
I have to believe that NH is under orders to not trade for non major league ready players. I could imagine though that the team may not have had good offers for DJ, but combined with the news of seeking a starter that is MLB ready, the Pirates are shooting themselves in the foot. I really wish now that we d pulled the plug a year earlier and traded Duke/Maholm.
Whither Doumit?
He’s not valuable enough as a back-up/platoon player at his current salary
Why don't you knock it off with them negative vibes?!
CHURCH IS GONE! FINALLY!!!!! NO MORE CHURCH!!!! THAT’S ALL THAT MATTERS
Jason
The Hanging Curve
he whiffed in his last Pirates AB
Seems fitting.
Steve Z
I almost cried when I saw that
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I have a dream where a man is judged not by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character" Martin Luther King Jr.
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Jul 31, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Its only reasonable rates if Arizona is paying for half of his contract each season
by 2010 will be the year on Jul 31, 2010 1:01 PM EDT reply actions
If someone knows the answer, was Carrasco going to walk at the end of the year? I presume he had a one-year deal, but I can’t remember if there was an option for 2011.
I doubt we would have received a worthwhile prospect for Carrasco, given report that the Mets won’t give up LHP Robert Carson for Dotel.
This move
sets them up to deal Doumit this winter.
There are a couple of ways to get value back for Doumit in a trade.
1. Include him in a package deal. Whether you add a prospect or someone off the major league roster. It can only add to the value the Bucs get in return. As has been mentioned, Doumit is still a decent bat in a lineup if he can stay healthy(which is easier said than done).
2. If it’s a straight 1 for1 deal, maybe they can get a prospect with upside from a teams deep A system.
Either way, this move to me indicates that Doumit’s days as a Buc are numbered. The biggest hurdle in dealing him was that they did not have someone to replace him adequately. They noe have that someone. I don’t think there’s a chance in hell that Doumit is with this ballclub by next spring.
I think the strategy here might be to try to get Doumit at bats without the issue of catching.
Catching generally means the bat will suffer, and since Doumit’s trade destination is probably going to have to be as a DH, maybe they are hoping he will gain enough bat to make that attractive.
Although Snyder has had a lower caught stealing percentage this year than normal, he’s generally been a pretty good defensive catcher. Earlier this year, BTBS ranked him 6th in MLB at the time.
Offensively, everyone seems to be harping on his low average, but his walk rate has been consistently excellent, giving him a .350 OBP this year. Both he and Doumit have a 100 OPS+ this year, and Snyder’s wOBA of .338 is better than Doumit’s .327.
Snyder has 10 HRs in 234 PAs to Doumit’s 8 HRs in 310 PAs. So he’s got more power and takes more walks than Doumit.
This seems to have the makings of an upgrade at defense and offense is probably a wash at worst.
Carrasco is not a bad price to pay for that, I’d say.
Lilly deal
sure taking a lot of freaking time… apparently Blake Dewitt would be going to the Cubs… want Aki?
Ugh...
http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/sports-town/pbc-blog/104000-doumit-to-play-mostly-of
(head meet wall)
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
I relate ...
But I think OF is his best position.
Now that’s mostly a statement on his inability to throw from home to 2b.
But he has an okay bat and maybe could avoid getting hurt less.
However, I wouldn’t bet against Doumit hurting himself washing his car.
I'm okay with this deal, Pirates get what they need and they didn't give up anything of real value
They got a defensive catcher with experience which they disparately need until Sanchez gets to the bigs (assuming he does). They also got a SS filler with fringe potential.
Simple baseball move.
Visiting Diamondbacks fan here
Just curious about your take on the deal. What can you guys tell me about Carrasco? And are Church and Crosby really THAT bad? I’d appreciate any insight.
Kelly Johnson DOES simply walk into Mordor.
by Zavada's Moustache on Jul 31, 2010 1:53 PM EDT reply actions
Church is HORRIBLE.
Crosby isn’t so bad, but he was a flop with us.
Carrasco is a pretty decent relief pitcher who can handle long relief pretty well. When he was with us, he was petitioning to be a starter, but it never happened.
Carrasco: Capable reliever. Is able to do everything from an inning, to long man, and even a spot starter. Will occasionally drop down and throw sidearm to keep batters off balance.
Church/Crosby: Yes, they basically are that bad. Church is rated as a good defensive RF but hasn’t hit really at all except the occasional big pinch hit. Crosby only really has defensive value at second base and hasn’t hit much either.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jul 31, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Church is awful,
Crosby was average, and Carrasco is a solid pitcher.
Carrasco can pitch long-relief, in the 8th inning, or he can spot start.
My question for you is: How is Snyder’s defense?
Snyder has
A reputation for being a solid defensive catcher and, from what I can tell, he’s been at least competent behind the plate. That being said, he’s been terrible at throwing out runners for a couple of years now, and since he’s 29, there’s no real reason to expect a great amount of improvement. I think he really started struggling when he lost his starting job and was forced to platoon with Montero. It will be interesting to see how he does now that he will be starting again on a regular basis.
Hope that helps.
Kelly Johnson DOES simply walk into Mordor.
by Zavada's Moustache on Jul 31, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It really does
Oh well, at least Crosby and Church will fit in well with their new team.
Kelly Johnson DOES simply walk into Mordor.
by Zavada's Moustache on Jul 31, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Really the deal is Carrasco for Snyder which is probably an even swap
For some reason the D-backs were nice enough to take Church off the Pirates hands. I’m kind of eh about Crosby. Crosby filled the position he was supposed to fill.
Maholm is Probably Staying
The Padres appear to have made their moves (Ludwick, Tejeda), and I doubt they give up much for Maholm.
The only teams left would be the Dodgers (if Lilly falls through), and the Mets.
The Mets appear to match up well with what NH wants. Jenrry Mejia and Ruben Tejeda would fill the SP/SS holes.
possible Maholm and Dotel package to Mets
still holding out hope that Lilly deal falls through with dodgers
Done deal according to MLBTR.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jul 31, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
You never know.
Maybe some of the teams that were supposedly kicking the tires on Lilly give NH a ring.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jul 31, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yankees have been shopping Montero pretty aggressively...
I wouldn’t mind dealing Maholm and Dotel for Jesus.
Marlins supposedly still actively shopping for relief help too.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jul 31, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Andrew Miller could be interesting
He’s back in AA, and struggling, but was once a bonafide-ace prospect.
I’m sure Kerrigan could fix him. haha
Brett Walch, Kyle Smit, and DeWitt to Cubs for Lilly and Theriot.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jul 31, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we could have easily...
traded for Haren, Oswalt, and Lilly. If we dealt 2 of our top 10 prospects, I’m sure it would have happened.
Those no-trade clauses killed our pennant run for next year.
Enough
of the nonsense about Milledge needing to learn to hit righties. His carrer L-R splits are perfectly normal and his “problems” vs RHP this year are due entirely to SSS/random variation.
And please don’t platoon him with Doumit, dammit!
Dotel Update
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
Yeah
I would be shocked if we make another move..
DK just tweeted
They are talking to some teams about Dotel, but Maholm stays put..
One point for consideration...
how is Doumit going to take not catching much any more?? Are we going to see him sulk, once he gets healthy. We know he wasn’t fond of the moves the last 2 years. He won’t be playing regularly unless the Pirates trash Milledge.
I’m not sure how well a Doumit/Milledge platoon in RF is going to work. In fact, we now have a logjam at RF/1B with Milledge, Doumit, Jones, Pearce (as soon as he gets healthy), Young (at least in the OF) and Clement. Pearce and Milledge should probably play vs LHP. But vs. RHP…playing time for everyone is going to be a mess.
Looks like a 27 year old fifth starter/long man.
Eh.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
actually i just
looked at his ml stats… sounds reasonable now after looking at minor league nos but likely just depth
Dotel for James McDonald
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
I was high on him a few years ago. . .
but his flyball tendency scares me
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Dotel to Dodgers for Lamb and McDonald.
Ken_Rosenthal #Dodgers get Dotel. For Lamb and McDonald. #Pirates #MLB
I like it.
I really like it.
If we can get McDonald right, it’s a steal.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
Yeah, I like it a lot too.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
He has swing and miss capability. . .
we need that
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Well I don't know if I'd say much better...
but we need pitching and were able to get Snyder for nothing so in that respect I like it a lot better.
Who is Lamb?
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Andrew Lambo.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
Overall
We get Snyder, Martinez and McDonald plus a couple prospect parts in exchange for Church, Crsoby, Carrasco, Lopez and Dotel. None of those guys cost us any players to pick up….so it certainly is a good day for the Pirates.
Nice addition
He may turn out to be another AAAA player, but for what we paid….he’s a nice addition.
So, I guess it's time to ask the question.
Meek or Hanrahan to close?
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
Rated B- by Sickels coming into the season.
If he still has that grade, he’s one of our top prospects instantly.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
If nobody offered an attractive package for Maholm,
then what does that say about Zach Duke’s value moving forward?
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
All depends on how he finishes the year.
His last few outings have been encouraging. Wouldn’t be surprised to see him or Maholm dealt in the winter.
Dodgers fans are angry about that trade.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 31, 2010 4:18 PM EDT reply actions
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