Trade Deadline Review: Pirates Deal Dotel, Carrasco, Lopez
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 31, 2010 11:52 PM EDT
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PrintOkay, assuming we have everything now:
-P- The Pirates sent RP D.J. Carrasco, IF Bobby Crosby and OF Church to the Diamondbacks. They got C Chris Snyder and $3 million.
-P- They sent RP Javier Lopez to the Giants. They got SP Joe Martinez and OF John Bowker.
-P- They sent RP Octavio Dotel and $500,000 to the Diamondbacks. They got SP James McDonald and OF Andrew Lambo.
I've said over and over that I would prefer the Pirates trade for Class A-type talents if it means they can get more upside. That said, I'm not sure there's much to quibble about here on those grounds. The Pirates really didn't give up a whole lot - Dotel and Carrasco were relatively valuable relievers, but they're still just relievers. So it shouldn't have been expected that they get much.
The players the Pirates got are mostly help-now types, but McDonald, in particular, used to be a very well-regarded prospect, and his performance actually hasn't faded all that much since that was the case. His upside is probably something like a #3 starter, which isn't usually the sort of thing you can say about a 25-year-old Class AAA pitcher.
Martinez and Bowker are lower-grade talents, but both have a chance to be helpful, and the Pirates only dealt Javier Lopez to get them. Bowker has struggled in limited opportunities at the major league level, but he has mashed at Class AAA, so he should probably get another shot. It's unclear, though, how the Pirates plan to give him one - they already have four pretty good starters at first base and the outfield in the majors, and with the addition of Snyder, Ryan Doumit is going to be vying for playing time at those positions, too.
I really like the addition of Snyder, who should provide the Pirates with a good temp at catcher until Tony Sanchez is ready or something else happens. He's arguably as good a hitter as Ryan Doumit is, with much better defense, although he does struggle to control runners. In any case, the Bucs did well to get Doumit out from behind the plate, and at a very low cost in terms of talent.
Lambo is the wild card here. Like McDonald, he was once among the Dodgers' top prospects, but unlike McDonald, he probably won't be with the Pirates anytime soon. He'll probably be at Class AA, where he's been for the past two seasons. He's struggled to master the level, but then he hasn't been overwhelmed either, despite skipping Class A+ and being somewhat young for the league. It would be hard for me to argue that a couple of random Class A arms, which is about the return I would have expected for Dotel, have more upside than Lambo does. He isn't a surefire prospect by any stretch, but he's a nice addition.
The Pirates continue to add prospects other teams have soured on. That strategy hasn't worked brilliantly yet, but it helps to remember that in this case, the Pirates just aren't giving up a whole lot.
With the departures of three relievers, I'd look for Joel Hanrahan or Evan Meek to take over the closer's role. McDonald and Martinez will probably join the team immediately, perhaps with one of them stepping into Daniel McCutchen's rotation spot. Snyder obviously will join the team, too, probably sending Jason Jaramillo back to Indianapolis. I'm not sure what will happen to Bowker.
UPDATE: McDonald will join the Pirates; Bowker and Martinez will go to Indianapolis; and Lambo will go to Altoona.
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Saw one report
That said Martinez was headed to AAA (with Bowker). I would expect McDonald to joing the team and take the Carrasco role in the pen.
McDonald...
better not take the Carrasco role in our pen. Martinez or McCucthen should take that role and McDonald should go straight into our rotation.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
Agreed…McDonald is starting material. He’s added velocity every year to his fastball from 91.5 in ’08 to 92.8 in ’09 and now close to a 94 average this year.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
rotation for rest of the year should consist of
Maholm
McDonald
Ohlendof
Duke
Karstens
Bullpen:
Hanrahan – closer
Meek – setup
Ledezma
Gallagher
Martinez
Indy shuffle
by BadAndy on Jul 31, 2010 5:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
september
hes not ready, as we have already seen…
by 2010 will be the year on Aug 1, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
A quote from BA
“Lambo and McDonald ranked 1-2 on Baseball America’s Dodgers Top 10 Prospects list entering the 2009 season, but both had fallen out of favor in Los Angeles.” Wow.
Viva Clemente!
the bad news bucs
the oakland raiders of mlb?
by karreemofwheat on Jul 31, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
i think its a good thing
the bad news bears won!
by karreemofwheat on Jul 31, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Where have we heard that story before??
See also LaRoche, Andy.
I’m surprised the 2008 Dodgers top 10 has Delwyn Young and not Bryan Morris.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Lambo is not the best prospect...
but he is still a top ten guy for us. I can’t think of ten prospects in our system I would take over him. He certainly adds some much needed power potential to it.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
Lambo was rated #3 this year in the Dodgers organization
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/los-angeles-dodgers-top-10-prospects/
He’s a 21 year old in AA, which is already mildly impressive. He’s got a nice future ahead of him if he keeps his head on straight.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Not the best, but a great return for Dotel. Dodgers paid WAY to high of a price
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
...and I don't think anybody on here will complain.
Finally, somebody else other than the Pirates screwed up a trade and gave up too much. Now it may a little too early to call it a bad trade on the part of the Dodgers (just see last year’s McLouth trade) because nobody really knows how McDonald and Lambo will pan out here. But on paper, yes, it looks like the Dodgers got raped. Then again, they do have a deep farm system and, unlike us, can maybe afford to overpay for somebody they really want.
Is McDonald throwing a knuckle-curve in the picture above?
Not terribly important . . . but kind of cool anyway (for no particular reason)
It looks like it but I have never seen the ball rotated so far back in the grip.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Jul 31, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
It does look a bit like the old Burt Hooton grip...
Unless that is his middle finger barely visible on the back-top of the ball. If it is, then it is probably an exaggerated attempt to cut a fastball — a grip like that will give you a lot of movement and very little control.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
It sure looks like it...
nice find. I used to throw one that was similar to that except i would have both my index and middle finger on the bottom half of the ball. i have seen quite a few ways to throw it and when done right it can be a sick pitch.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
Hello-Giants fan here
I just wanted to let you know about Bowker and Martinez.
Martinez is a back of the rotation starter, who gets a lot of groundballs. He gained some infamy last year after he was hit in the head by a Mike Cameron line drive. This year he’s been shuttled between Fresno and SF, making one start and being the long reliever for the Giants.
Bowker is the more intriguing player. Last year he won the PCL MVP and dominated AAA pitching. He was named the Giants starting RF, but Bruce Bochy immediately put him in a platoon and he never got comfortable. He was one of the few Giants with an option remaining so the Giants sent him down when they signed Pat Burrell. He did a lot to change his approach in the 2008 he was just a hacker. But last year, when he dominated AAA, he focused on drawing BB’s and had a very well rounded game. In terms of comparisons he could be like a Luke Scott type, or a poor man’s Josh Willingham (ie low BA, good OBP and SLG).
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
i was just
about to say i was reading the giants blog and they are pist. they seem to think they got ripped off.
this trade sounds better every second
age of last winning season: 5
Yeah, Joey was a popular player on McCC
and Bowker was intriguing
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
They do seem upset
“Making trades for the sake of making trades. Fuck Sabean”
“This is by far the worst trade Sabean has ever, ever, ever made. I am so disgusted right now.”
Viva Clemente!
Yeah that 2nd statement is very hyperbolic
All in all it’s actually pretty mild compared to the Alderson-Sanchez trade reaction
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
Thanks for the summary
You probably already know this, but: Javier Lopez is a pretty decent LOOGY who can’t get righthanders out worth a damn. Unfortunately, our manager never realized this rather obvious fact, hopefully yours will.
No problem
The Giants needed a LOOGY after Dan Runzler and Jeremy Affeldt both hit the DL. The second part of your statement worries me because Bruce Bochy doesn’t use a LOOGY too often-although maybe he can learn.
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
I see NH's vision . . .
get as many pitchers who have been hit in the head by line drives onto our staff. He was working a deal for Billy Wagner up until 4 pm. This now makes Maholm, Ohlie, Jaku and Martinez.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
I'm pretty excited about Bowker, honestly.
I didn’t even know he was a part of the deal until I just read it a few minutes ago. Like it’s been said before, we gave up virtually nothing for these two guys, so if Bowker actually pans out, it will be more than anybody could’ve hoped for.
Like these deals a lot
None of these guys were in the Bucs long-term plans. Shed some salary w/ Dotel, got rid of Ryan effing Church, and brought in some high-upside talent to boot. Nice haul, especially for probably the 3rd 5th and 6th best relievers on the team.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
http://firerickreilly.com
ya
we pretty much traded away people that we didnt want or need, and aquired decent prospects/ immediate help
age of last winning season: 5
The best thing about the Pirates deadline trades this year
Every player they traded was picked up in the offseason for nothing. I know it’s common for people to say the team should sign a guy with the thought that they could flip him at the deadline. Unfortunately, that seems to rarely work out. Now there’s no gurantee that any of these players picked up ever contribute anything significantly positive to the Pirates, though it’s hard to imagine that at least a couple of them won’t do well. Hoiwever, this seems a great return for a bunch of players pretty much grabbed off the scrap heap in the offseason.
I thought you were going to say the best thing about today is not having a fire sale. I like these moves alot but I would think moving past the fire sale phase would send a very positive message to the team.
Yinzers uber alles
right we offered our starters and long term pieces for good baseball moves only
if you want them you are going to overpay!
by karreemofwheat on Jul 31, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
First of All
I hate the term “Firesale”. IMO It’s meaningless. The Pirates have never had a “Firesale”. What they have done the past couple years was trade older players who had played for them for several years ( a couple players a year), mostly guys who established themselves as major league players with the Pirates – and they traded those players as they approached free agency, knowing that they couldn’t re-sign them at fair value and that the team basically needed to rebuild from the bottom up with younger players.
Ultimaely, What I’m saying is effectively what I think you mean. The Pirates moves this year were not predicated on trying to salvage some value for long term vets from the team. Instead, the teams moves all involved players who were here for just a half season. The last few years, they’ve infused talent into the system via trading longer-term veterans. This talent was added strictly for guys literally signed off the scrap heap in the off season. Somebody made a FanPost after I posted this which made the same point – the Pirates pretty much got all these players for nothing.
Good point
I was trying to think of another term and was trying to be funny as well. I was and am on board with what we did as a concept. I think “tear down” phase might have been better. The point I was trying to make is that this year we are adding pieces to a foundation, with the message to the starters still here that they a part of that foundation.
Yinzers uber alles
The important thing here is
that we gained a popular player on a Bay Area SB Nation blog, and lost a popular player on a Bay Area SB Nation blog. Pretty even.
I think when one considers the current trading-for-prospects enviroment
as its become much more difficult in the past few years, today should be viewed as a major coup by NH. As I mentioned in another thread, not only have we improved the outlook of our future, the current team might not be any worse, perhaps even better, because of it. We traded our 3rd, 4th, 5th best bp options and 2 replacement-level or worse bench players and stabalized our catching situation and added at least one pitcher to our laughingstock of a rotation.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Indeed
Carrasco is the only guy I am remotely sorry to see go, but we got two of him back, and they both have much higher upside. And with Macdonald, well, lots of baseball guys I’m reading (Keri, Law, Fangraphs, others) see him as a GREAT acquisition. Lambo could also be some very sweet icing.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
http://firerickreilly.com
Neal H
Neal better get some credit for these steals, as i am sick of hearing NH bashing
age of last winning season: 5
some Yinzers just have no clue
“We traded our closer?”
NUTTING IS CHEAP
FIRE NEAL
by BadAndy on Jul 31, 2010 5:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Good recap.
Solid analysis, don’t disagree with any of it.
nice job
I was critical after the Capps-Ramos deal, but this is a good return for Dotel. McDonald and Lambo are definitely worth a shot.
Lambo
didn’t he get suspended 50 games for drugs?
Pot..
..not PEDS, if you’re moral that’s a concern, if you’re a baseball fan nothing to worry about.
But he’s got a long history of “makeup” issues dating back to high school. From that standpoint, it’s a concern.
I do worry about guys
not named David Bowie wearing makeup.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Also
Martinez went to Seton Hall. Where is Econolodge?
In case anyone cares what Keith Olbermann has to say...
<img src=“<!— ”http://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/20016891770" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/20016891770 RT @injuryexpert MCDONALD? FOR DOTEL? Damn, everything you’ve ever said bad about Neil Huntington, take it back /Amen. Dodgers get fleeced.less than a minute ago via Twitterrific→ .bbpBox20016891770 {background:url(http://a3.twimg.com/profile_background_images/90322573/Countdown3-TwitterBG.jpg) #C0DEED;padding:20px;} p.bbpTweet{background:#fff;padding:10px 12px 10px 12px;margin:0;min-height:48px;color:#000;font-size:18px !important;line-height:22px;-moz-border-radius:5px;-webkit-border-radius:5px} p.bbpTweet span.metadata{display:block;width:100%;clear:both;margin-top:8px;padding-top:12px;height:40px;border-top:1px solid #fff;border-top:1px solid #e6e6e6} p.bbpTweet span.metadata span.author{line-height:19px} p.bbpTweet span.metadata span.author img{float:left;margin:0 7px 0 0px;width:38px;height:38px} p.bbpTweet a:hover{text-decoration:underline}p.bbpTweet span.timestamp{font-size:12px;display:block} - end of tweet —>"/>
Keith Olbermann
KeithOlbermann
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
Epic Fail
Me and my embedding…
“RT @injuryexpert MCDONALD? FOR DOTEL? Damn, everything you’ve ever said bad about Neil Huntington, take it back /Amen. Dodgers get fleeced.”
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jul 31, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha.
Awesome! It’s great to finally hear and see people talking about how somebody other than the Pirates got ripped off. I’m telling you…2012 will be the year we finally turn it around. I believe!
Keith Olbermann doesn't qualify
as people.
Yeah. I heard he's just a robot that the New World Order puts on TV.
I read it on an Alex Jones message board.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 31, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Dodgers comment over at TrueBlueLA:
I fucking hate Ned
He’s a piece of shit moron. Fuck off, asshole (ned, not you, lol).
california natives are total spazzes
Just throwin it out there
by BadAndy on Jul 31, 2010 5:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Garrett Jones
I think these moves today open the door for a possiblity of a Garrett Jones trade this off-season, if we’re able to acquire a shortstop or another SP.
Bowker – Ready for another shot at the ML Level (Will only play RF)
Moss – Probably deserves another shot at ML Level (Will only play RF)
Clement – On the ML Roster (Will only play 1B)
Doumit – Phased out of the catcher position (Will play 1B/RF at times)
Milledge – The best RF option right now
Pearce (RF/1B)
Aside from possibly Milledge, Garrett Jones will bring back more in a trade than any of the other options at his positions. If he can finish the year strong, or even on par with where he’s at now, there should be a market for him as the “fluke” player tag should be removed by now.
That’s 6 MLB caliber players vying for two spots.
Let me ask you guys this: Would you be willing to bet that any random two of the six above mentioned guys outproduces Jones next season?
Bowker – Ready for another shot at the ML Level (Will only play RF)
Moss – Probably deserves another shot at ML Level (Will only play RF)
Clement – On the ML Roster (Will only play 1B)
Doumit – Phased out of the catcher position (Will play 1B/RF at times)
Milledge – The best RF option right now
Pearce (RF/1B)
That’s 6 MLB caliber players vying for two spots.
Let me ask you guys this: Would you be willing to bet that any random two of the six above mentioned guys outproduces Jones next season?
I’d maybe bet on Bowker to outproduce Jones next year, but not the others.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t see Bowker as more than depth. He’s 27 and has failed to hit Major League pitching in 475 at-bats. Then again, nobody saw Garrett Jones as a viable major leaguer.
I’d like to see a higher upside guys as corner candidates. Milledge is about the only one, unless Alex Presley is for real and Lambo can get back on the fast track.
Presley isn’t high upside, right? Milledge’s lost power is like figuring out Stonehenge, but he is probably our best option going forward right now. I’d buy Starling Marte more than Lambo.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Bowker
Is intriguing to me. AAAA mashers have turned their careers around in their late 20s before, look at Nelson Cruz.
Older guys not putting up great AAA numbers (Clement, Moss, Pearce given his .400 BABIP and lower power) certainly aren’t as intriguing as a guy mashing there.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
negative nancy
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
end of doumit
We don’t want or need him at 1b or RF. I’d say platoon him at catcher and trade him when he’s healthy.
The only position Doumit should play from this point forward is catcher, on a part time basis. He’s played his way out of a regular role in the past 2 years.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That we got anything of value for Ryan Church and Bobby Crosby makes today full of win. The Dotel deal is just icing on the cake.
by Kidspud on Jul 31, 2010 5:29 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Keith Law
Dodgers give up too much for Dotel
The Pirates get an absolute steal of a return on Octavio Dotel by getting two out-of-favor prospects from the Dodgers, creating a situation in which if only one pans out they still see a significant gain.
Cool.
elvishasleft.com
bestweekever.tv
There are actually a lot of guys...
That give credit to NH and the FO, but the Pittsburgh press will never admit, but yes, nice to see from such a guy as Law.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly
Happy Bucco fan here for sure. Very nice return for players that were disposable at year’s end. Speaking of which (and it’s irrelevant now)….do you think management had any intentions of bringing any of the Dotel, Carrasco, Lopez trio back for next year?
Also, in theory, isn’t it possible that all three could be back in Pittsburgh next year as free agents? I believe all three players were on one-year deals, right?
dotel and dj want a ring
poor dj he prob hates our guts. i think he was the biggest loss of all that we traded.
by karreemofwheat on Jul 31, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Dotel
has an option for next year, which vested automatically per the trade. Can be bought out for $500k, IIRC.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 31, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Wooooooooow
This is all great news! The PIrates essentially gave up nothing for some relatively promising players. The Fangraphs articles for the Dotel and Snyder trades are praising to Pirates, so that’s always a good sign.
Couldn’t be happier with this trade deadline, although now I’m waiting to see how the local writers and talk show hosts spin all this in a negative light, which they always seem to want to do.
well smizik says we downgraded our only strenghth the bp
and got meager returns, he did say snyder was an upgrade on doumit. then was quick to add doumit, duke and maholm go in the offseason.
by karreemofwheat on Jul 31, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
...
He…you know what, I don’t want to comment on that.
Seriously, why does anyone who reads this blog ever read Smizik’s? I guess for the laughs?
i find the anti fo [team smizik] amusing
they will be the first on the bandwagon when we do turn it around.
by karreemofwheat on Jul 31, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Pirates use World Series win as excuse to raise ticket prices.
Last season, the Pittsburgh Pirates won the World Series for the first time since 1979. Now, after about two decades of losing and at times, record breaking horrible teams, the Pirates are turning their backs on the fans by raising ticket prices for the first time since 2002. The Pirates for the first time in their history had over 3 million people come to see them play. They are now actively trying to reduce it back to less than 2 million as was common during the lean years with these insane ticket prices that are being put in place to gauge consumers during tough economic times!
====
Right on Bob! I’m so done with this team! They’re using this World Series win to cram more money in Bob Nutting’$ pocket.
====
What did I say when the World Series began? That the Pirates are just fielding a good team as an excuse to raise ticket prices and collect more money for the Nuttings! They still don’t have a $100 million payroll. When is Major League Baseball going to intervene here and force the Nuttings to sell?
====
You are all right, they should just give tickets away for free every game and raise the payroll to $180 million next year. That makes perfect financial sense.
====
Oh look another Nutting employee coming here to spew his nonsensical optimism for this pyramid scam of a baseball team! Also, I would love to hear NuttingHostage’s opinions on this matter.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 31, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i cant read it anymore
the comments of his “Cult followers” over there suck his D even harder and think everything he says is correct makes me sick!
i tried to reason with one on Twitter
He basically called me names and insulted my intelligence
Fuck them clueless Yinzers
Never again
by BadAndy on Jul 31, 2010 6:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you mean like
clainimg this is the best management team in baseball, maybe in all sports,……Today is our future. 2010 is the beginning of the next dynasty of the Pirates for me , …….Oh, absolutely. We are going to win more games than last year
insulted intelligence?
Jesus,
don’t you have ANYTHING new to say?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 31, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
and many in here
want to suck Bob, Frank an Neal’s D and think most everything they do is correct. Weird thing is they should be sick(look at the results now and the past)
I’m no Smizik apologist either.
that may or may not be true
time will tell…anyway, who brought all the meaningless pieces in the first place?
They brought them in to marginally help out this year and then hopefully flip at the deadline which is what they did—wait why am I replying to a troll?
Reeled you in, didn’t he?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 31, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, what is there not to be happy about today?
Essentially, we acquired a few somethings for a bunch of nothings. Isn’t that a good thing, regardless of how the nothings came into the organization?
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
as stated above
time will tell….look at the GMs past trades…..after seeing the results, most of his trades have not been very good…so to praise the deals today is premature…..would you agree that past actions are the best indicator of future actions?
Look I hope it works out and one day there is a contending championship team. If your honest and objective…its not even close right now…even after these trades
would you agree that past actions are the best indicator of future actions?
People want to believe that — it comforts them to believe that the world is rational and predictable. However, contemporary social theory suggests that behavior is actually quite random and chaotic
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
by SubLime on Jul 31, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This
is possibly one of the deepest things I have read on a sports blog.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
And, while I personally stand with that worldview,
I only wrote it to F-with that absurdly naive, linear, positivist crap that this fellow wrote.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
It really was...
a very good respnse that shpuld not recieve any argument against it. And if it does, the arguer must not be able to understand what you just wrote.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
Learn Psychology
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hNF_zRKWLTMJ:allpsych.com/psychology101/intro.html+social+theroy+best+preditor+of+future+behavior&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
People also want to believe the Pirates will become winners. Ownership/management tell fans what they want to hear……actions are another matter and the results tell the truth…and the truth shall set you free
according to psychology 101
a person who constantly repeats himself, is looking for attention. was babied by his mother, and has a small penis.
by karreemofwheat on Aug 1, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
FWIW
Lambo and McCutchen had very similar offensive stats as 20 year old AA ballers. Although Lambo did walk slightly less and strike out slightly more. But he did hit for more power. Not really suggesting he’s the next McCutchen, I’m just sayin’.
I just hope Willie Nelson doesn’t take any minor league park tours through Altoona while Lambo’s there
McCutchen also smoked a lot less pot though.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Jul 31, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Nats fan here...
Was reading your story about the Capps trade earlier this week…I guess now you know how us Nats fans felt, eh? ;)
Support the Bally-stache!
Yep. Both teams (Twins, Dodgers) overvalued relief pitching and the Nats and Buccos cashed in.
Both McDonald and Lambo were out of favor with Dodgers management – if one of ’em plays out, you guys still win the trade.
Support the Bally-stache!
by Steck It Out on Jul 31, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Et tu, Doumit?
So where does Ryan Doumit fit in to all of this?
My guess is they would have traded him if they could, but could find no takers for his salary for a catcher in full decline on offense, defense, and probably brain cells.
So I think he will get the “Steve Pearce” treatment – extended rehab, another DL stint or two. No way they are going to put him at first base! They need lanky GI Jones to field all of Pedro’s wild throws. And Doumit can’t displace Tabata or Milledge. So off Doumit goes to rehab jail…
If they keep Doumit on the DL past August 11th…then does his full 20 day rehab…they won’t have to make a roster move and still bring him back September 1st.
Do you think the Pirates make a run at Carrasco, Lopez, or Dotel in the offseason? That would make this trade frenzy even more onesided…
Nope.
They are all pretty replaceable, which is why they were signed in the first place.
a) to be flipped, if possible (and BOY, were they FLIPPED)!
b) There’s tons more out there just like ’em.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 31, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Lovin' the comments on Smizik's blog
“What did I say in the prior thread?
BEWARE of James McDonald!
This is exactly the kind of nonsense the Dodgers love to dump on the Pirates.
James McDonald will fit the Pirates like a glove….He’s terrible.
Luckily….They only gave Dotel up, as I know the Dodgers wanted Maholm.
Otherwise….It’s back to no real lefty in the bullpen.
Huntington stated last year that is over-rated.
I won’t be convinced that Huntington is done yet.
Somebody will be given away via the waiver wire and/or after the season ends.
He won’t keep Maholm AND Duke and Doumit (though that will have to be a total giveaway……and maybe some salary eaten).
Beware of James McDonald!"
*********************************
They still have Hanrahan and Meek in the pen. Now they just need the 5 aces to get them through the seventh inning, and they should be fine. No big deal.
**************************************
I lost a post……..unless u deleted it Bob??
Bob Nuttings pockets are definately heavier today
*********************************************
Bag of donuts………should have given them away freebie.
*******************************************
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
At least we can tell...
…which posters over there swam in the Mon as children.
by Kidspud on Jul 31, 2010 6:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
NH was just on XM
home plate. The highlights:
He intends for McDonald to be a starter.
Claims that Snyder is top ten MLB wide in OPS for catchers with 1200+ PAs over last three years. (I don’t have the energy or inclination to look this up, but if so, great)
Said Doumit will still catch some
Spun the Doumit situation as being generated by concussion concerns.
Asserted that Bucs will again be a top draft spender this year once we get to 8/15.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Doumit is probably also in that top 10 OPS list. Frankly, I think Snyder’s performance level probably isn’t that much different than what we had been getting from Doumit, when one combines offense and defense.
I agree, with the concerns being Snyder’s hitting-friendly home park, and whether he is actually good defensively.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
MLB network guys
(or at least one of them — I wasn’t looking at the screen) claimed that Snyder is one of the top defensive catchers in the game. The comment did strike me as hyperbolic, if not downright specious.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Baserunning vs Snyder
2006 45% 21SB 17CS
2007 36% 52SB 29CS
2008 31% 49SB 22CS
2009 24% 26SB 8CS
2010 20% 47SB 12CS
That downward trend in CS% is disturbing.
By the CS numbers
it looks a little like people quit running on him because he was throwing so many of them out, and now only the good ones try, and mostly they succeed. Because they’re, you know, good.
Attaway,
’daddy.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 31, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Guess I should have included games played on those SB stats.
Snyder
2006 60 games .6333 attempts per game 45% CS
2007 103 games .7864 attempts per game 36% CS
2008 106 games .6698 attempts per game 31% CS
2009 56 games .6071 attempts per game 24% CS
2010 61 games .9672 attempts per game 20% CS
Doumit
2006 11 games 1.3636 attempts per game 27% CS
2007 28 games .9643 attempts per game 22% CS
2008 106 games .8744 attempts per game 27% CS
2009 71 games .9015 attempts per game 31% CS
2010 74 games 1.0270 attempts per game 11% CS
Snyder might be the defensive catching version of Yuni Escobar, where the pundits swear up and down that he is a great defender while the statistics strongly disagree.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
There is a lot more to catching than throwing oit baserunners.
Unfortunately that’s all uzr and +- measure. Snyder is supposed to be an excellent game caller an has a high Fielding percentage which is a relevant state for a Cather.
Er...why didn't it post the stuff I tried to paste?
Comment From Scott G.:
Lambo and Mcdonald for Dotel? How did that happen?
Zach Sanders:
Drugs. So many drugs.
Bucs traded a tin foiled wrapped box for a tv
Loved this quote on Fangraphs on the “Pirates lift Snyder” trade:
“You can take some tinfoil and tape it to a cardboard box but that doesn’t raise the value. That is essentially what the Pirates did, and then they dealt that cardboard box for a television.” by R.J. Anderson.
So, essentially, we traded Lopez and Dotel for another Ohlendorf, Tabata, Karstens, and Clement. I’ll take it.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 31, 2010 6:31 PM EDT reply actions
I’d like to think McDonald is a lot better than Ohlendorf and Karstens. At least I hope so for the sake of the team. No Tabatas in today’s returns.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t think so? I think Lambo’s got more talent than Tabata. And Karstens was the guy we got from San Fran.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 31, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Lambo and Tabata were born 1 whole day apart, and obviously there’s a gigantic production difference between the two at this point given levels.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s true. I was looking talent wise, not production wise.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 31, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Wasn't Tabata a teammate
of Julio Franco in winter ball when they were young?
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Is this like where we need to see Obama’s birth certificate?
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
If my memory is correct, I think there was a big difference between Ohllie and Karstens. Karstens was intended to be a stop gap w/ little upside to fill an immediate need. Ohllie was a prospect w/ upside to be a #3 or #4 and that is basically what he is.
Yinzers uber alles
I agree. Ohlendorf still wasn’t a highly-regarded prospect as McDonald has been. His best was 9th at Baseball America in the Yankees system
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Getting Bowker for Lopez is pretty great.
I mean Lopez is a mere LOOGY but from what I’ve read on McCovey, Bowker could be somebody, not a superstar but at least player in the form of Luke Scott.
And on top of that you guys got Martinez too. He is more then serviceable as long as he isn’t over exposed.
More Smizik Fun
Once again the Pirates come out of a trade deadline with a worse team…Yet many of the kool aid drinkers on here are excited about the possible prospects…Have you learned nothing from Hanson, Moss, LaRoche trade in 08 or maybe it was hernadez and morton in 09.
The pirates usually trade a better player for a lesser prospect. Get used to it and quit the blind optimism.
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
Wow. That's just completely factually wrong
I looked it up before. This year the players the Pirates traded were a combined -0.7 WAR. This year in the majors the players they got back were a combined +0.8 WAR.
This makes this year’s team, which doesn’t matter in the first place, worse how?
If there are only two things I know
it’s that you should consider only how a trade impacts the major league club immediately in a year where we’d only have to make up twenty games to reach the playoffs, and that trades are bad if they involve players that people who comment on Smizik’s blog are familiar with.
Dang.
Everyone else beat me to it. The first thing I did when I got back to my computer just now is check out what the Smizik blog commenters were saying about the trade. It’s really entertaining. So bad it’s good. It’s like watching old MST3K movies without the silhouettes.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 31, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Smizik can just fucking die a slow and painful death
by BadAndy on Jul 31, 2010 8:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
READING Smizik
can cause a slow and painful death…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 31, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I have heard that Smizik articles and comments have been read to terrorists during interrogations. It’s known to be even more effective than other more “controversial” methods.
Yinzers uber alles
Probably
the best thing that happended was the lopping off of the dead wood; now for Donot(doumit) and LaRoche.
Tom Specht
From McCovey Chronicles
“Enjoy, Pirates. You can shut up about Armando Rios now”
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
No.
But that was some very funny shit. I loved it. Especially this comment.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 31, 2010 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
So, let's see.
Bench scrubs eliminated? Check.
Viable catching alternative acquired? Check.
High-ceiling talent acquired? Check.
Meek or Hanrahan to the closer’s role? Check.
No important pieces traded away? Check.
Trade Deadline: Successful.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
Only thing that would have made it any better
Ryan Doumit traded?
But we can’t get too greedy. I’m very happy with this.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Doumit...
…is the kind of guy who could slip through waivers and still be traded. I think the OF assigment is designed to raise his value once he returns and still try to deal him.
Well,
why else?
Just agreein’.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 31, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Or someone could claim him off waivers,
and we could get a semi-interesting prospect for him. I’d settle for another Jeff Clement.
No more Ryan Church
almost made me cry when I found out that I wouldn’t have to watch him struggle to anything right. To bad we wont get too see his wife anymore though
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I have a dream where a man is judged not by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character" Martin Luther King Jr.
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
Way late to this
(Had to move all day, pissed I missed the fun)
Does anyone have any info on Lambo. I know a fair bit about him (suspension included). My biggest fear and the reason I think the reason we were able to get him is because of his diminished prospect status (obviously) BUT I’m fearful of why it dropped.
The obvious answer is he is in trouble (never a good thing) and that he has missed valuable development time (similar to Marte for example) but to me the bigger concern is the nature of his suspension. Some has speculated its pot (which I don’t support the use of) but that’s not as big a deal as if he was using PED’s. Again, not because he’s “stooped” to using them, but because that could be a huge reason why he has been such a hot prospect (until lately)
Basically, did we just get a guy whos a 10-15 prospect masquerading as top 5 prospect due to PED’s.
To cover my ass due to recent drama, I’m speculating on a hypothetical and drawing (what I feel to be) important conclusions from the aforementioned hypothetical. There’s been no proof of what the drug “abused” was.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 31, 2010 7:11 PM EDT reply actions
Also
I’m assuming that’s a misprint or a typo with “McDonald and Lambo” coming from the “Diamondbacks?” or is there somehow a three way deal (where they went to the Diamondbacks first or something?
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 31, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Pure Speculation
NH would not take a PED inflated prospect, but would take a risk on a repentant pothead.
Mr. Huntington..
I’m like totally sorry I smoked all that dope. It’ll never happen again, dude, I swear.
It's just that, well,
people who I thought were my “friends” told me that all the cool kids were doing it…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 31, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough
I just find it to be a legitimate concern.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 31, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
New info
Per ESPN
Lambo, who will turn 22 next week, has long been considered one of the Dodgers’ top outfield prospects. But he fell out of favor somewhat when he was suspended for 50 games earlier this season under baseball’s Minor League Drug Prevention and Treatment Program after testing positive for a drug of abuse, which multiple sources have identified as marijuana.
Italics and bold mine
That takes this trade to “awesome” levels. We got a potential #2/3 starter and a potential great corner OF for around 3 mil (What we payed Dotel to this point + 500,000$)
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 31, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Would Matt Capps have brought this return if we had kept him? Probably not, this is better than what the Nats got for Capps.
I think its up in the air
Certainly Capps didn’t bring a better return for Washington, that’s for sure. The Capps “argument” has been rendered moot.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 31, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Wilson Ramos...
plays a tougher position and before this year many thought he was potentially an all star caliber catcher. That is more valuable than either of these guys. So the value of the trade depends more on people’s view on Ramos than anything else. Either way, I rather i have we got for dotel because I do not believe ramos would have held any value for us in the long run with Snyder and Sanchez in our organization.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
Depends
a starting catcher isnt worth more than a starting pitcher, if McDonald can be a steady one (maholm level, for instance). But if Ramos is an AS catcher that’s different… but in either case, most people would admit that the returns are close, and at this point there’s no clear answer, though IMO it points to the Pirates return being better…
Capps -
obviously a pot smoker… you don’t get that many chins by not getting the munchies once in a while…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 31, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
so let me get this right...
We have basically every record in baseball set over the last 15 years tainted by PEDs and a minor leaguer gets suspended 50(!) games for Dope? Not saying it shouldn’t be controlled but seems just a bit out of whack.
Yinzers uber alles
The word on Lambo is that he’s poor defensively in the outfield, so we’d probably like to see some more hitting than he’s shown the past two years.
Lambo profiles as a guy who, as with Wilson Ramos, saw his stock drop very sharply for good reason. He hasn’t hit like a sub-average defending corner needs to the past couple years.
It’d be hard to rank him anywhere close to an all-around athlete like Starling Marte, but I’ve never seen him play. If he is assigned to Altoona, I’ll check him out.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I need some level-headed evaluation and analysis of what happened today.
Where’s CUoNTour?
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
HE'S GATHERING SOME MORE EMOTICONS, SON
by maguro on Jul 31, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Oh god, there aren’t enough pluses for that comment.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Jul 31, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I FOUND THIS ONE TODAY, SON
I HAVE NO CLUE HOW IT COULD BE USED IN CONTEXT ON BUCSDUGOUT.
PLEASE ADVISE. TIA
by CUoNTour on Jul 31, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Is that Smizik?
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
hmmm
Traded players that had no long term value to the team: Check.
Dropped significant dead wood in Crosby and Church: Check
Got Doumit out from behind the plate: Check.
Those are very obvious wins. I think, however, it is only fair to consider the negative aspects of these moves.
Continued to trade MLB ready talent for minor league talent with high ceilings but low floors.
Replaced a hitting catcher whose hitting is deteriorating for a defensive catcher whose defense is deteriorating.
Weakened a relatively inexpensive area of strength on the team (bullpen).
Plugged another stopgap into the rotation that won’t pan out, b/c the Pirates simply can’t afford the rotation help that they need through trades.
My biggest concerns are McDonald and Lambo, as well as Snyder to a lesser degree. I just don’t see the potential for McDonald to become anything better than the 3rd starter on the Pirates, which is not really a step forward. Lambo, as stated, doesn’t hit well enough for a defensive liability, especially one with behavioral problems. Feel the way you want about pot, but it’s the getting a second suspension for it that REALLY bothers me. He sounds like an immature Milledge.
Essentially, I think the only truly positive parts of the day were dropping Crosby and Church. Everything else is treading water at best. But I suppose that’s better than years past, so win?
If McDonald is a 3rd starter quality..
Innings eater, decent k’s, low 4 era..
With five years of control on him, for the price we paid, that’s an INCREDIBLE steal..
Also look at it this way Jim..
..if McDonald equals Maholm, for 1/5th of the price, that’s concievably money that can be put towards a true #1 starter that you think we should go out and get..
I don't think
that we need to go out and get a true #1 starter, I think we need 2 of them. I think we also need a better catcher, a better SS, some arms back in the pen, and some bats on the bench.
That is beside the point though. “if McDonald equals Maholm” is my big grief. We live on pretty large IFS that IF they turn true, we still aren’t hoping for much out of it.
“…Continued to trade easily replaceableMLB ready talent for minor league talent …”
Fixed that for ya.
“…Plugged another stopgap into the rotation that won’t pan out, …”
and you know this…how, exactly?
“… b/c the Pirates simply can’t afford the rotation help that they need through trades.”can’t afford? Huhwha?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
so i'm not as good with the fancy quotes you made, cocktailsfor2, but...
“…Continued to trade easily replaceable MLB ready talent for easily replaceable minor league talent…”
Now that’s fixed for us both. My complaint was not that we were losing valuable players. I don’t even know that I have a complaint. I was just pointing out that at SOME point it would be beneficial to have some talent available in Pgh. Don’t get me wrong, I understand the value of prospects. I just don’t think that we really got any, personally. We didn’t give up much to get what we got, but it’s still a downgrade from easily replaceable MLB players for easily replaceable MiLB players. Not that it matters much, b/c again, the players involved are all essentially replacement level players, or not far above or below that level.
As for not being able to afford better pitching…I think the FO has shown that their plan to develop pitching is through constantly feeding the minor league levels with prospects. There isn’t really much of a problem with that at face value. One might question the value of that strategy if the organization is not getting top flight talent. One might also argue that we don’t truly know the current FO’s ability to assess and develop talent, so it could go in any direction as well, whereas proven MLB talent, while possible to recede, is a little less risky. Again though, I don’t have a problem with that aspect of the plan at face value. Flood the minors with as many arms as we can find and start hoping we develop a high enough percentage of them to noticably affect the MLB level of the team. Regardless of opinion on the strategy, however, this strategy, coupled with the FO’s unwillingness to go after financially restrictive big ticket arms at the MLB level, kind of sends the message that the FO is unable to afford a more guaranteed fix to the rotation. When your “ace” is a number 3 guy on most other teams, and the talent drops off the table after that like a Strasmas curveball, there’s a pretty clear need to improve the rotation at some point in the future. As for “afford”: I mean more than just the paycheck, although that is a big part…I also mean how it affects the club long term buy investing too much in a player who, while likely improving the club immediately, will likely not do so enough to contend, and will likely also harm the long term financial viability of the team with such a large % of the payroll.
More simply put, according to everything the FO has shown thus far, the club is unable to afford a Lee or an Oswalt or even a Lilly or Westbrook. And don’t stick words in my mouth by suggesting that I say that move would be the fix. I’m not. Contrary to popular belief on this site, being critical of the FO does not mean that I am in favor of spending money just to spend money, nor that I am in favor of spending money on Lees and Oswalts without improving the rest of the club. I think we could definitely up our payroll responsibly and improve on the field performance via free-agency and the trademarket, and I think that at some point, we definitely need to address immediate needs at the MLB level of the organization, rather than just flood the minors with any prospect another team will part with.
McCutchen/Tabata/Walker is a good start, and Alvarez/Jones/Milledge helps that a bit. But anyone not named Maholm/Meek/Hanrahan on the pitching staff does a lot to hurt us. Let’s also not forget that we are 28th in AVG, 29th in runs, 28th in OBP, 28th in SLG, 27th in ERA, 28th in Ks, and 27th in WHIP. I point that out b/c despite the arrival of our most anticipated prospects in the last 2 seasons, we still have a worse record since the last one arrived (Alvarez) than since before then, and we still have a terrible performance overall. And who is waiting in the wings now that we can anticipate helping us turn around THAT much? We have our best prospects we can expect to see in the next 3-5 years, and at that point, we still stand a very strong chance of losing them all just as the next batch comes along. The point is, we are terrible, and are going to be terrible for the next several years unless we get luckier or find a better way to emulate the other have-nots.
Interesting note on
McDonald. Looking at his minor league stats it looks like he broke into the minors out of high school at age 18 and pitched, was converted to a hitter for one year (had no IP’s and ~200 PA) and then was turned back into the pitcher.
Obviously we’ve all heard of or seen (Ankiel) players who have been moved off the mound into the field but I wonder how many other guys were started on the mound, got one whole year out in the field, and then moved back (or vice versa). Maybe its more common than I think but its still pretty interesting.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 31, 2010 9:41 PM EDT reply actions
Extra
Looks like he actually got almost two full years at the plate before pitching six innings sometime in his third (second full) year in the minors.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 31, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we’re really going to tank in the next two months, with Jackson, Gallagher, and Ledezma as go-to guys in the bullpen along with Meek and Hanrahan. Any leads we can scratch together just aren’t going to last with this staff.
But they’re in no worse position for 2011 than if we didn’t do the trades, because the ’pen can be rebuilt in the offseason.
Well, I dunno...
Dotel, Lopez and Carrasco got lit up a few times themselves…it’s not like this team never got blown out before we traded away our awesome bullpen. The key to winning a few more games will be getting better performances from the starting pitchers, so we don’t need to use so many middle relievers.
I don’t think Dotel, Lopez, and especially Carrasco are that good. But the next two months’ bullpen projects to be shades of 2008 and 2009, where the rare leads were handed back with regularity in late innings.
It doesn’t really matter, but there’s no denying what Jackson, Daniel McCutchen, and Will Ledezma can (or more appropriately, can’t) do. The ’pen and a near-useless Ryan Doumit roaming the outfield will be very rough.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 31, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
negative nancy . . .
or debbie downer, whichever you prefer
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Carrasco saved our bacon more than once
He’s the kind of guy I love in a bullpen – rubber arm, flexible in usage, and no delusions of grandeur (not aiming for late inning duties).
But I’m not sad that he’s gone or anything. I just hope Snyder doesn’t make us sad.
tanking?
Anybody else keeping an eye on the Orioles scores? Who will end up with the #1 pick?
Me
and they’ve blown late inning leads. Two nights ago they had KC down to their final out and lost and last night they were leading going into the eighth and lost. I’m pissed!
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 1, 2010 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions
We’re screwed – that is a really bad baseball team.
by thegreatchris on Aug 1, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
You would think . . .
that between McDonald, Morris, Wilson, Owens, Locke, Morton, Lincoln, Martinez, Ohlendorf and even Maholm and Duke (if either or both are still around), we should be able to put together a competent ML starting rotation in 2012.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Hart
Ascino
Veal?
I still think we may go make a free agent signing as well.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 1, 2010 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Although “competent” might be the ceiling, if only because, unless multiple guys reach their ceilings, there’s a lot of 3-4-5 talent there, and only a couple with even a shot at #2 talent (I think we all agree that no one, not even Morton with his “stuff”, is a true #1 in that group).
But I think that by ’12 the offense should be a bit above average (maybe #10 in the league?), and with a bit of luck the pitching could match that, and #10 pitching + #10 offense (and a good bullpen?) should equal something like contention, if not an actual playoff berth.
But I do think that’s best case. If the pitching or offense slip just a bit from that level – just as far as #15 – then we rapidly devolve to an 82 win team – which would be very nice, but not quite exciting.
Good Luck John Bowker
You got hosed by the Giants FO after completely changing your approach last year in AAA and drawing more walks only to win the starting RF job out of spring training and get thrown in to a platoon situation by that ass-clown Bruce Bochy, eventually only getting a hair over 80 PA’s this year. Glad you’ll finally get your shot in Pittsburgh and we all hope you come back to San Francisco and hit a shit-ton of dingerz off Lopez and Ramirez. We’re all hoping you enjoy the same success that Fred Lewis and Kevin Frandsen did after being given away for meal money and a bag of balls respectively.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
I was away
from computers and the news all day yesterday – I’d actually forgotten about the trade deadline until I heard a snippet of the postgame and they mentioned Clement and I thought, “something here changed.”
I haven’t caught up on all the above discussion, so this is going off the P-G’s coverage and Charlie’s writeup, but here’s my take:
First of all, I think this is a great haul for a bunch of disposable players. You can always argue that more could have been gotten, but when you’re trading guys like Crosby and Church (and I realize they were secondary to their deal), it’s silly to quibble. I think the goal is to get players that are worthwhile, whatever their status.
Second of all, I’m happy not to have gotten A-ball prospects. I don’t believe that any of the players we sent away would have garnered talent of the type we already have in spades at that level. And while it’s true that you can’t have too much talent, I don’t see the benefit of adding a guy who’d be our 4th-best SP in Bradenton over a guy who becomes our best starter in AAA. Indy had become a desert, and the guys we got back (appear to be) interesting enough that they’re not just warm bodies. My presumption is that at least one of the 5 non-C acquisitions turns into a valuable (as in, worth keeping on the roster and paying in arb and not just DFAing as soon as real talent arrives) contributor somehow or other.
I also think that at least one of these new guys turns into trade bait paired with Doumit. I know Doumit’s value is at a low ebb, but whatever: his value to us had ebbed as well, and I think a lot of us here were as happy seeing Kratz get starts as Doumit. I’m annoyed by Doumit taking PAs from Milledge, but I have to assume that this isn’t a long term plan by management. Still another month to finalize postseason rosters, and I see no reason Doumit couldn’t get by waivers. Throw in one of these new guys, and that could be a deal worth making for someone with needs.
Bottom line: nothing too exciting, but I’m pleased. And I’ll be really happy if Snyder returns to form a bit. I think we’ve all been a bit too eager for Sanchez’ arrival, and now I don’t think it’s critical for him to be raced up here.
LA Fans not happy
I can tell you that LA fans are not happy with the Dotel trade. He’s not seen as someone whose taking a major role, while the guys the Dodgers gave up are considered to have alot of future potential. I can also tell you personally that Lambo is a very highly regarded talent from his high school days here in So Cal. A James Loney type but better hitter and some killer instinct, something the Pirates need.
Per Fangraphs
It seems that both of the California deals qualify as steals for the Pirates. The D-backs deal is less clear-cut, since it relies more heavily on how Snyder and Doumit shake out, but certainly not a bad move in terms of pure return.
It’s very tough to call the Giants deal a steal. Lopez could at least neutralize tough lefties like Prince Fielder for this and next year, and the Pirates received two minor league veterans, similar to archetypes we’re very familiar with (Nady trade pitchers, Moss/Clement).
The Pirates will push at least Bowker as a legitimate 1B/RF option next year, but he’s no more likely to pan out than the Clement mess (Bowker with a .330 ZiPS wOBA, very optimistic given the major league track record).
The Lopez deal isn’t a particularly bad trade, but it’s not good like the other two.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 1, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting take
I actually agree insofar as I think people have been really downplaying Lopez as just another LOOGY, as if every LOOGY has an ERA of 2.79 (yes, I know ERA’s a shit stat, but come on – his FIP is better than average as well), and as if every LOOGY compiles numbers like that in 39 innings over 50 appearances. He’s not a one-batter specialist.
Bowker doesn’t excite me (although there’s some upside there), but Martinez is probably an upgrade over the top 3 guys we’ve been pulling from AAA (maybe not over Karstens, but certainly better than No Relation, Burres, and… some other shitty guy I can’t think of. Penn? Whatever).
I realize that the goal is to add serious talent, but seasons are torpedoed over things like not having a viable 6th starter and blowing 4 games from a brief DL stint. And I really don’t want to see a situation in a year or two where we’re calling up serious prospects prematurely because someone’s having a sore elbow or back spasms. That’s where Martinez types are most valuable IMO.
That’s a very pertinent point. Any scenario where Burress, Dan McCutchen, and Dana Eveland never see the majors again is a good situation.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 1, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It occurred
to me that maybe No Relation has been unlucky? He sure seems to be giving up HRs at an exorbitant rate*. So I checked,and not only is his HR/FB almost 20% (!), but also his IFH% is a whopping 12.4% (!)!
But for all that his BABIP is just .282, and so his xFIP is still 5.99 (although that is almost 2 full runs below his ERA). Bottom line? Not a good pitcher.
- although I’m on the record that bad pitchers don’t nec. stick to the standard HR/FB rate
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