Pirates Spend Tons Of Money On Draft After Signing Jameson Taillon, Stetson Allie
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 17, 2010 1:01 AM EDT
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PrintToday was a really nice day for the Pirates organization. The actual game might be the last thing you'd think about, but the Bucs finally snapped their losing streak with another great performance by James McDonald, whose numbers since being traded are just excellent: three starts, 17.2 innings, 20 strikeouts, four walks, and five runs allowed. When the Pirates trade veterans like Octavio Dotel, what's supposed to happen is that they get worse in the short term so that they can get better in the long term, but that hasn't been the case here. Tonight the Pirates also got two hits from Pedro Alvarez and a homer by Andrew McCutchen.
More importantly, the Pirates signed their top two draft picks. They've already been discussed endlessly both here and elsewhere, but the gist is that Taillon immediately becomes the Pirates' top prospect, and Allie probably slots in at number three or four, behind Taillon, Tony Sanchez and maybe Bryan Morris. I'm generally not wild about the idea of picking a high school arm early in the first round, but Taillon is about as good as they get. He and Allie are both potential stars but, obviously, the problem will be getting them through the system without their getting hurt. Fortunately, they've signed to minor-league deals, which will reduce the pressure to get them through the system quickly. We probably won't be seeing either of them in the majors for at least three years.
It's nice that not only did the Pirates get these two guys, they paid bonuses of several hundred thousand dollars to other players as well (Pirates Prospects has these collected in a handy chart). Third-rounder Mel Rojas Jr. signed for slot money, but that's still over $400,000. Fourth-rounder Nick Kingham got about double his slot amount, picking up a bonus of $480,000. Fifth-rounder Tyler Waldron's slot value was about $173,000. Ninth-rounder Brandon Cumpton got $124,000, which is above the norm. 15th-rounder Drew Maggi got $468,000. 17th-rounder Ryan Hafner got $450,000. And 23rd-rounder Jared Lakind got $400,000. There may also be a couple guys, such as 11th-rounder Dan Grovatt or 49th-rounder Logan Pevny, who also got bonuses that are substantially higher than the usual for the rounds in which they were picked, but the exact figures are unknown at this time.
In addition to all that, Allie got $2.25 million and Jim Callis says Taillon got $6.5 million.
Put it all together, and the Pirates clearly spent over $10 million this year. Dejan Kovacevic thinks it's more like $12 million, a figure Neal Huntington confirms. That might or might not be a record - the Nationals spent somewhere north of $11 million on bonuses last year, and the Royals spent $11 million in 2008 - but it's a huge amount. It would have been great if the Pirates had signed all of their top ten picks, but it seems pretty churlish to complain that they didn't do so. This is a good day for the organization.
The Pirates will now turn their attention to Mexican pitcher Luis Heredia, who should command a multi-million-dollar bonus.
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Jim Callis says $6.5 million for Allie. Andy Seiler pegs the total spending somewhere between $11.5 and $11.75 million (either first or second overall, close with the Nationals). Huntington said about $12 million on his media call.
On the other hand
The Brewers spent $2 million on this draft. $2 million!
Considering that they didn't sign their first round pick, that's not a huge surprise.
Cut out Danny Moskos and that’s about what the Pirates spent in 2007.
Cut out Taillon and Allie and the Pirates still spent $3.25 on the rest. The Brewers clearly could have done better. Not that I want them to.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 17, 2010 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
But wait, WTM, isn’t Milwaukee the team that we should be patterning our payroll and budgeting after??? Nutting’s too cheap to only spend what the Brewers spend on the draft!!
In fairness to the Brewers...
…they were apparently willing to pay fair value for their pick, but he was diagnosed with diabetes during the pre-signing physical, and he decided that he wanted to take some time to get a handle on his condition and how to best manage it before jumping right into a pro career.
I think it’s obvious that Nutting is WAY too cheap to put somebody with a chronic condition on the company health plan, anyway.
On a more serious note, what I read indicated that his diagnosis kind of freaked him out a little (certainly understandable), so he decided to pursue a degree somewhere close to home.
There is, at least, some precedent for pitching with diabetes.
Dan Reichert had it, and so does Brandon Morrow.
Morrow is.
Not sure about Reichert.
Morrow actually has an insulin pump that he wears at all times when he’s not pitching. Much was made of that when he was drafted – he probably fell a few slots due to his medical uncertainty. Doesn’t seem to have affected his pitching much, though.
Looks like...
…Catfish Hunter and ex-Buc Jason Johnson were also diagnosed with Type 1. Among non-pitchers with Type 1, you’ve got Ron Santo and Dave Hollins.
Unsurprisingly, David Wells was diagnosed with Type 2 during his last year in the majors.
In regards
to Morrow, he (Morrow) actually took the time to talk to Covey and give him advice, which I thought was cool.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Since I already did most of the work anyway...
…I went ahead and threw together a Wikipedia page on people with Type 1: Link.
In case anybody’s curious like I was.
What?
I hope you mean $6.5 million for Taillon as I read earlier in the day that they spent $2.25 million on Allie.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 17, 2010 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Great day to be a Buccos fan!
Now that the ink is barely dry on these deals, how much of a boost will these 2010 signings give our minor league system ranking overall?
I know it’s early to speculate, but are we Top 5 in the majors now? I think we have to be at this point. Not like I care what the “national experts” have to say, but I’m looking forward to hearing some well deserved positive praise for NH & the FO.
Probably not top-five
but definitely a big, big boost to the system
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly
I don't think we're even top 10
But to echo CTapps, it’s a great way to reload with talent.
by thegreatchris on Aug 17, 2010 7:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Given the hit we took this year
Pulling Pedro and Tabata out of the system, it would be really hard to move hugely up. Add to that how many prospects lost chunks of the year to injuries. Still, I think the days of our system being considered mid-pack are past for now.
Top 10
I think it may depend on international signings. But they have to be getting close to a top 10 minor league system.
They have some holes at Altoona and Indy now. But some of them will be solved by promotions.
It’s amazing how far the system has come.
Yea
I went to see altoona play last saturday with Justin wilson pitching. And I talked to a season ticket holder and asked him…..Who has power on the team….and i think there was no one showing with much power on the team quite yet. perhaps Lambo if he doesn’t strikeout so much. Alot of line drive hitters. Wilson was impressive that game with i think 10K, 0 BB and Moskos closed.
It is a long trip up from 30th to top 5
by RichieHebner on Aug 17, 2010 3:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes ...
the days when you had future all-stars like Jamie Romak as top 10 “prospects.”
You just need to go back through BA to see how far NH has brought the minor league system in a few years.
Just for fun:
Littlefield’s last year on the job was 2007.
Our 2007 BA top 10 list had the following guys on it: Yoslan Herrera (#4, out of organized baseball), Josh Sharpless (#5, out of organized baseball), Brian Bixler (#7, hitting .278/.334/.375 in AAA), Brad Corley (#8, out of organized baseball), Todd Redmond (#9, pitching in AAA for Atlanta, with a 4.38 ERA and 1.23 WHIP), and Mike Felix (#10, out of organized baseball).
Never a good sign when, three years after a list comes out, you’ve got as many guys selling insurance as you do playing in the bigs.
Just a clarification ...
Great point. But didn’t Bixler get sent to Altoona?
He’s with the Nats now. They recently (earlier this month) got him from the Pirates for cash.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Aug 17, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I forgot ...
that’s right. The Pirates sent him to Altoona and he was dealt shortly after it.
I guess I need to pay more attention to Bixler’s transactions. It seems like he’s been in 10 over the past year.
It just kills me to think of where we might be now
If anyone except Ed Creech had been running those drafts. All those years of high picks pissed down a rathole.
by RichieHebner on Aug 18, 2010 12:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Seriously ...
I could have had my mother drafting for the Pirates using Baseball America’s guide and she would have done far better than Ed Creech.
DL deserves most of the blame for the shambles in left the franchise in. No question.
But Ed Creech is one of the more incompetent individuals to ever work in MLB.
Amazingly...
…Creech is still drawing checks from a MLB club. He’s on the Giants’ payroll, as a “Senior Advisor, Scouting” (Link).
Also for fun:
Per BA pre-2007, our projected 2010 lineup (with 2010 production):
C: Ronny Paulino (333 PA, 76 OPS+)
1B: Adam LaRoche (456 PA, 114 OPS+)
2B: Freddy Sanchez (332 PA, 71 OPS+)
SS: Jack Wilson (211 PA, 65 OPS+)
3B: Neil Walker (282 PA, 114 OPS+)
LF: Jason Bay (401 PA, 102 OPS+)
CF: Andrew McCutchen (466 PA, 112 OPS+)
RF: Xavier Nady (195 PA, 71 OPS+)
SP1: Brad Lincoln (50 2/3 IP, 62 ERA+)
SP2: Ian Snell (46 1/3 IP, 63 ERA+)
SP3: Zach Duke (114 1/3 IP, 78 ERA+)
SP4: Tom Gorzelanny (112 1/3 IP, 114 ERA+)
SP5: Paul Maholm (140 2/3 IP, 83 ERA+)
CL: Matt Capps (55 IP, 169 ERA+)
I remember thinking at the time, “But a lot of those guys are scheduled to be free agents by then!” I can just imagine the BA people writing that and shrugging their shoulders.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 17, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure the BA people had ...
many jokes at DL’s expense. Kind of like this blog.
Consider the alternative.
Projecting a future lineup with Bixler and Shelby Ford and Jason Delaney and Kent Sakamoto in it?
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Now let’s all figure out how much that line-up payroll would be in 2010. Quick glance I’ll say….. way too much
Lineup Cost and Value
Position players (6) who are no longer with the Pirates: $28.525M, WAR 1.5
Position players (2) who are still with the Pirates: $822.5k, WAR 3.4
Pitchers (3) who are no longer with the Pirates: $8.55M, WAR 1.0
Pitchers (3) who are still with the Pirates: $9.7M, WAR 0.4
Add in 11 replacement-level players averaging $700k each (some minimum, some $1M retreads) and you’d get a total payroll of $55.5M and a total of 6.3 WAR, or a W-L of about 54-108, as well as an empty farm system.
But the important thing is they’d be spending more money. Which would cause unicorns to appear and carry them around the bases faster….. or something
A bit more detail:
Paulino: $1.1M, 0.4 WAR, traded for Jason Jaramillo, $417k, -0.7 WAR, 1.5 years younger.
LaRoche: $4.5M, 0.6 WAR, traded for Hunter Strickland (A+) and Argenis Diaz.($400k, -0.1 WAR in the majors)
Sanchez: $6M, -0.2 WAR, traded for Tim Alderson (AA)
Wilson: $5M, 1.0 WAR, traded (with Snell) for Aaron Pribianic (A+), Brett Lorin (A), Nathan Adcock (A+), Ronny Cedeno ($1.125, 0.7 WAR), Jeff Clement ($405k, -0.7 WAR)
Jason Bay: $8.625M, 1.0 WAR, traded for Bryan Morris (AA), Andy LaRoche ($450k, -1.1 WAR), Craig Hansen (injured, A+), Brandon Moss (AAA)
Xavier Nady: $3.3M, -1.3 WAR, traded (with Damaso Marte, $4M, 0.2 WAR) for Jeff Karstens ($400k, 1.1 WAR), Daniel McCutchen ($400k, -0.7 WAR), Ross Ohlendorf ($439k, 1.7 WAR), Jose Tabata ($400k, 1.0 WAR)
Ian Snell: $4.45M, -1.2 WAR, in AAA, traded with Wilson (above)
Tom Gorzelanney: $800k, 1.8 WAR, traded (with John Grabow: $2.7M, -0.9 WAR, injured) for Josh Harrison (AA), Jose Ascanio (injured, A+), Kevin Hart (AAA).
Matt Capps: Non-tendered.
Even had we had perfect knowledge of outcomes, the only moves I wouldn’t have made are Gorzo and maybe Paulino, who would have both been serviceable starters at reasonable prices.
- LaRoche is slightly better than our other 1B options, but at 10x the price.
- Sanchez is replacement level at 15x the price, and would have blocked Walker from 2B.
- Wilson and Snell – Cedeno is performing the same as Wilson for 1/4 the price, so that exchanges a $4.5M AAA pitcher for three prospects in A/A+ plus Jeff Clement, which is a deal I’ll take any day and twice on Sundays.
- Bay would have been a serviceable RF (assuming he’d move there with Tabata in LF), but again at 20x the price of our other myriad RF options.
- Nady is 2.3 WAR worse, $3M more expensive, and ten years older than Tabata. Marte is 0.9 WAR worse, $2.6M more expensive, and eight years older than Karstens. Even straight up, that deal is a swindle — and that doesn’t count Ohlie and No Relation, who are at worst a slightly better than replacement level starter and middle reliever, respectively.
Even non-tendering Capps was at worst a net wash and at best a win, as it opened the space to get Dotel, who turned into Lambo and McDonald.
So eight “major decisions” (seven trades and one non-tender), of which five are wins (one – Nady – huge), one a loss (Gorzo), and two somewhere around washes (Paulino slightly negative, the Capps non-tender slightly positive) — honestly, that sounds pretty damn good to me.
This analysis may be worth a Fan Post of its own
If you write it up as a fan post, we can all send it to Smizik as evidence of the sound thinking that has gone into the recent organization overhaul.
s.zielinski
No way they're top five
Probably not even close, considering the absence of talent at AAA, the absence of hitting talent in virtually the entire minors, and the fact that none of our pitchers are really tearing it up at the moment, with the exception of Owens and Wilson.
Now next year, on the other hand, Pirates system could really blow up.
Not top 5
not necessarily top 10 (although getting Heredia may squeak us into the top 10).. but
1.) We’ve got much more young team controlled major league talent than the average MLB team
2.) Imagine our farm system going into 2012. Next year at most we will graduate our four AA pitches and Presley and maybe Moskos. I actually don’t see us graduating all of those pitchers anyway, but lets say for the sake of argument we graduate 2 of the 4 (any 2).
That leaves us with (picking names) Locke, Morris (last 2 to reach AA), Sanchez, Marte, Taillon, Allie, and then any number of guys can have a breakout season : Rosenberg, Cain, Dodson, Stevenson, Kingham, Chambers, Grossman, D’Arnaud, Rojas, Bishop, Cayonez, Q. Miller, Lorin, Adcock, Alderson (still possible), Gorkys, and Lambo. THEN you have to add our 2011 draft, which will most likely include a Rendon/Purke/Cole caliber player and another guy who will slot into the top 10 in our system in the second round (or maybe a overslot guy in a later round). If we also get Heredia, our system will be absolutely stacked.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Great day
I would have liked to see them sign another of Hursh/Kubitza/Weiss and Carey, but that is small potatoes. The Bucs top 30 should be very encouraging the next time those lists get made. Considering all of the bad luck they had in the minors this year, Pittsburgh’s farm system seems poised for a talent explosion.
It's a good day to be a Pirate
Seriously ...
I’m like a kid at Christmas. We got nearly everything I thought they needed.
Would one more pitchers and Carey have been nice?
Absolutely. But it was a terrific draft.
The kind of draft the team needed 15 years ago.
Great day for the organization. McDonald spins another great start and still looks like the best pitcher on the major league team (not saying much, but you have to start somewhere). The high profile signings go through without a hitch, and even some nice position players from the draft are officially in the organization (Jared Lakind, Drew Maggi).
Tough day for the Brewers, on the other hand. Their first round pick Dylan Covey, who was probably not top 10 but still a very good talent, was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes a couple days ago, and this scared him into college close to home in San Diego instead of the minor leagues.
What is that thing McDonald throws
around 75 mph with the big vertical drop, curve or change?
Whatever, when he’d dropping that puppy for strikes, it’s a beautiful thing.
Previously described as a curve
IIRC his arsenal is the classic trio: FB, CU, and CB. As I said in the gamethread last night, I could spot his curve from right field – it’s a great pitch.
While we’re asking about pitches, anyone know what Leo Nunez was throwing last night? 87+, with about half a foot vertical and horizontal? I’m assuming a slider or 2-seamer, but it was damned effective.
Thanks
From my angle (behind 3B dugout) I could see the drop but not the curve.
saw the same thing,
but from my seats behind the 1B dugout. Got an awesome look at the close play at 1st, Jones flipping the ball to JMac.
Pitch fx tends to become really confused with that pitch and call it a change and a two-seamer…either way its filthy though.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Aug 17, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Not to sound like a jerk
but saying it “scared” him into college sounds a bit crass. Diabetes is a very serious condition and he made a mature decision to put his ultimate life dreams on hold (and possibly ruin them permanently) to ensure his own health and safety.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think anybody...
…would blame him for being scared. Getting a diagnosis like that would scare the hell out of me.
it's a knuckle curve...
and, I agree, I could watch that thing all day. His change seems to typically come in around 80-82mph.
Is Bryce Harper a better talent than Mike Stanton? Stanton is putting up video game numbers in his age-20 season with the Marlins (.914 OPS, .391 wOBA, nearly .300 ISO).
I’d go with Stanton as he’s doing what Harper is projected to do. As we all know, a lot can go wrong with projections. The interesting thing with Stanton is that he was drafted in the 2nd round, and then jumped straight from AA to the majors.
The interesting thing with Stanton is that he was drafted in the 2nd round, and then jumped straight from AA to the majors.
That’s another example why the Marlins are consistently one of the better run franchises, and will probably enter another boom period if they can keep Hanley Ramirez and Josh Johnson along with Stanton the next few years.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 17, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Harper signed as expected
I didn’t see it anywhere else so I’ll just chuck it here.
$10m
by BlindSquirrel on Aug 17, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
They failed to sign TWO Zachs!
What happened to the plan?
Great day
If the Bucs failed to sign their top two picks, all the doomsayers who bash the organization’s plan would have been proven correct. And I probably would have joined the crowd who would then realize that the Pirates weren’t real serious about building up. To my relief, the front office proved otherwise and is following the best—and only—plan to improve the franchise. Terrific news!
If they bring in Heredia
That will be the trifecta…the unfortunate part of this excitement is that we are looking at a minimum of 3 years but more likely 4 years before we see any of these guys being close to the majors…
That said, a great influx of talent into the organization which is a good thing.
August 18th?
Is that the first day that Heredia is available to sign? I think I remember August 18th being the date that Dejan talked about.
Yes
August 18th, 2 days after the 16th which was his birthday. It’s being delayed due to legal complications.
I guess we can take a breath today and prepare for tomorrow.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Legal complications...
like the Veracruz team wanting to get a couple of days away from the amateur draft deadline so that they could get more teams in on the bidding to raise the price. The team gets 75% of whatever the signing bonus is. The player only gets 25%.
25/75
It occurred to me when I read that that it’s greatly to the Pirates’ benefit, since they have a relationship with the kid (and the team). Since the kid only sees 1/4 of the bonus, it’s not as if someone else can come in and overbid us and wow the kid. I mean, they could, but at a huge premium – to increase his take just $100k, the Yanks (or whoever) have to spend an extra $400k. Granted that Veracruz has a say, and would appreciate an extra $300k, they’re not going to railroad the player, not if they want to maintain relationships in country and out.
I realize that, in general, the (cheap) open market in LA benefits teams like ours, but I think that, when we have a relationship with a big talent like Heredia, the 75/25 split helps us a lot.
This
is all assuming the mother doesn’t win her legal bid to essentially kick the team out of the process, meaning all the money would go to the family. That’s why its being delayed till the 18th.
As far as the negotiations with the teams go, the kid has no say. It’s like the transfer market in soccer. The team will pick the highest price, so I think we want the mother to get control of the signing.
I’d like to point out the info supporting my above paragraphs is a few days old, so if anyone knows anything more… please speak up.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll admit I'm a bit disappointed...
…that they didn’t get a few more of their second day picks under contract, and I would’ve liked them to add Carey (who gave indications of being signable).
That said, signing Taillon and Allie was clearly Job #1, and they got it done at fairly reasonable prices, so good for them.
ditto here
in fact, i thought they saved some money on those guys and could have made a last push with at least one of Carey/Hursh/Weiss…
Keep in mind the three guys at State College...
..all playing well so far.
Waldron’s apparently showing good command and pitching well.
Curry has an OPS of .925
Rojas hasn’t hit the ground running, but he’s not overmatched either. It’s clear he’ll probably need a little more time at the level than the other two, but he’s also younger with more upside.
I need to nip this in the bud now
how do you pronounce “Taillon”? is it Tye-onn, tye-yon, tay-onn?
I think cocktails told me
It’s tie-one-on.
by JRoth95 on Aug 17, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here
To ‘somewhat’ clear up pronunciation matters, Jim Ecker of Perfect Game interviewed Taillon in July of 2009, and therein shared the following…
You can call him Jameson (jay-mi-sen), his given first name, or simply Jamo, his often-used nickname. "Honestly, either one works," he said. "I don’t really care."
And then there’s his surname, which gets trickier. You can pronounce it “TAY-own,” which is the proper French-Canadian version, or you can simply go with “Tallen,” which is OK, too. "Tallen is a lot easier," Jamo said. "It’s the American version." His father, Michael, goes by the American version in the business world, but the family acknowledges that TAY-own is formally correct, tracing to their French-Canadian roots.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Well,
That’s how I pronounce it.
;-(
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 17, 2010 3:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
GD IT!!
It reads Tail-on to me!
Why do people get funky with their pronunciations?
by BlindSquirrel on Aug 17, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I Hate to Rain on Your Parade, Dude, but...
Just because the Pirates spent some money on some potentially good draft picks, they still only beat the Marlins, a 5th place, sub-par NL team that they should be beating anyway. When they start beating the Braves, the Phillies, the Padres, and other top NL teams, when they start playing .500 ball, I’ll be convinced the FO is making good choices. And I’m not content to wait 3 years for Nutting and his comedy team of Coonelly and Huntington to make it rain in Pittsburgh. I’m still convinced that Nutting Must Sell. Sorry, but I will not accept another losing season. With teams like the Steelers and the Penguins winning championships in Pittsburgh, there’s no excuse for the Pirates dismal performance.
Yeah you're right!
The salary cap in each of their respective leagues has NOTHING to do with leveling the playing field in a small television market such as Pittsburgh! NUTTING IS A TERRIBLE PERSON WHO DOESN’T NO ANYTHING
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Hmmmm...
Just because the Pirates spent some money on some potentially good draft picks…
Are you claiming that Taillon and Allie are not-good draft picks? If so, your assessment of them is not only a minority view on their quality as players, but it’s so rate that it suggests that your are bat shit insane, all things considered.
s.zielinski
The phrase
bat shit insane
is a very technical term, used by most prominent psychologists. He knows what he’s talking about.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
"Bat shit insane"
It’s in the DSM!
s.zielinski
If you hate raining on the parade then don’t. Furthermore, when you say “I hate to rain on your parade” your supposed to say something that we he may not have known. But, you didn’t. You simply pointed out that Pirates have a bad record. That’s not news or even close to an original thought. It’s simply same old broken record. If your too impatient to wait for prospects to develop then change the channel and tune in when their winning like every other band wagon fan.
But, what I would really like to know is how on earth the Penguins and Steelers success has anything to do with the Pirates. Is there some sort of cross sport scouting department? Do they have common opponents? Please, what does one have to do with the other? And, maybe you should look into the history of the two teams your putting up on the pedestal. Both of those teams where laughingstocks for decades while the Bucs were the talk of the town.
Sale the team.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Not content to wait 3 years?
won’t accept another losing season? fine, get the hell outta here then. go cheer for the pens like all the other bandwagoners in this city
How are we "supposed" to be beating the Marlins?
Sure, they are a sub-par team, but the Pirates are even sub-parrer.
Can we be happy that the Pirates got some hugely talented arms (Tallion and Allie)? And that McDonald pitched very well? And that Pedro continued his improvement?
And can we please for one second amidst the yelps that the sky is falling acknowledge that all of the players mentioned above were brought in (and recently) by the dreaded Nutting/NH/Coonelly combo that you so desperately want to run out of town?
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly
Where were you when
McClatchy and Littlefield were laying waste to the franchise? I never heard you or any of your friends demanding change then. Why start now after management actually began rebuilding the train wreck all of you so conveniently ignored. Sort of like calling the fire department three hours after the fire starts and blaming them for the house having burned down, and then blaming the contractors for not rebuilding it in 24 hours.
If you can’t wait, go somewhere else.
by RichieHebner on Aug 17, 2010 3:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Interesting Development
regarding the Diamondback’s first round pick, Barret Loux, who (I believe) failed a physical.
Press Release from DBacks
"We have reached an agreement regarding Barret Loux’s status that is mutually beneficial to the parties. Today Commissioner Selig has announced that Loux will become a free agent on September 1. As such, he will be free to sign with any Major League Club at that time. In addition, the Arizona Diamondbacks will receive a Supplemental Selection in the 2011 First-Year Player Draft. The agreement also provides an opportunity for the Commissioner’s Office and the Players Association globally to the address the issues that can arise from questions concerning a drafted player’s health. Given the private nature of the underlying disagreement here, neither party will be making any further public comments about this situation."
Wanna add him and Heredia? :D. Not sure at all what he will/could command on the open market or how a deal would even work, (this seems unprecedented) but I’d be willing to throw high 6 or low 7 figures at him, similar to a Cain or Von Rosenberg deal. He could be a fall back for the Weiss, Kubitza, and Kime misses.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 12:44 PM EDT reply actions
Can't sign Loux.
He goes back into the 2011 draft pool, like any drafted-but-unsigned player.
Too bad about his arm – he’s a pretty good pitcher.
Yeah, he’s a free-agent now. It is apparently a special exception allowed by Selig since Loux exhausted his college eligibility by agreeing to a contract, but having it voided due to injury concerns.
I’d love to see the Pirates take a flyer on him, but I have no idea what his value on the open market will be. It will certainly be interesting to see what happens, as I don’t think there’s a precedent for something like this.
by getwonkafied on Aug 17, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That's what I'm saying
No precedent.
I’d love to throw 1.5 mil and a ML deal (assuming he’ll want a ML deal as a FA now) and see if he’ll take it. He could be a 2/3 by 2013 which would fit perfectly.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
although 1.5 mil might be high due to his now injury concerns
that’d be about my limit and I think a risk well worth it. If someone outbids us on that, so be it.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
That's pretty high for Loux.
He reportedly has problems with both his elbow and his cuff. Could be a pig in a poke.
Ya
that’s why I’d say I wouldn’t go higher in a bidding war.
800-900K would be nice.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Tim at Pirates Prospects
Is predicting a price tag roughly double that of Allie, or 4.5 million on the open market for Loux.
Pass on that. He’s likely to miss next season with TJ surgery.
$4.5M seems excessive
I’d expect teams to discount his baseball value to the extent that they expect Loux to undergo shoulder or elbow surgery. That money might be better spent on the 2011 draft.
s.zielinski
Ya
as smart as Tim is, I’ll have to disagree. The injury will have to lower his ability to bargain.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
TJ surgery
If he really needs it, he’s not getting $4.5 million with his injury history.
Just think of him as an international guy
just 3 years older and with injury concerns. If Heredia is only getting $2-3m, fat chance Loux beats that.
I can't imagine
throwing that kind of money at a guy who’s unproven and can’t get through a physical. I’ll pass on this guy.
Well there is a precedent for players declaring free agency after failing to reach agreements after the draft, with Travis Lee et al in ’96 (as Tim at PiratesProspects points out in his article).
What makes the situation interesting to me is seeing how a player with his immediate injury concerns and lack of any sort of professional track-record fares in free agency. The more I think about it, the more I’d rather the Pirates not get involved in the bidding, unless they can get him at an extremely discounted price (which seems highly unlikely).
by getwonkafied on Aug 17, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
It is interesting ...
because I think what the union and MLB are moving toward is sharing of medical records.
Teams may be able to see medical histories before taking them.
It won’t be like the NFL combine. But it’s a good move.
it's crazy that other teams
especially small market teams, don’t automatically spend $10 million on the draft each year. It is so much more cost effective than throwing large contracts at free agents.
One of the most glaring inefficiencies intelligently run teams can take advantage of is to spend on the draft.
Whether or not these guys eventually perform to their potential, this was a great draft for the pirates. It will be unfortunate if slots become strictly enforced.
Speaking of draft picks, did anyone notice the article on Yahoo about Bryan Bullington winning his first MLB game with the Royals.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Why should I read the Yahoo article
when I can just wait for Smizik to tell me about how we gave up on Bullington too early?
To be fair, I think Smizik might have been joking about that.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 17, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Always a good sign for a pundit...
…when you can’t tell sort the sarcasm out from the serious posts.
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
One of my favorite closing lines of any text, along with:
The knife came down, missing him by inches, and he took off.
by getwonkafied on Aug 17, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's a good one.
I’d come back with some Ulysses here, but it’s a bit too long to be workable.
Does anyone know a site where it shows how much each team spent on signing bonuses this year? Just for comparison purposes.
I haven’t seen a full list, but Andy Seiler was throwing up his estimates last night on Twitter. He covers a bunch of teams, but not all of them.
Here is a list in progress...
…some information is still coming in but it is fairly up to date.
http://www.piratesprospects.com/2010/08/2010-mlb-draft-pick-signings-tracker.html
Okay, maybe someone can help me out again.
Did Dave Littlefield ever draft and sign a guy for above slot money? Like one pick in any of his drafts? I’m honestly not sure. I know Bonifay did, and obviously NH has, but I truly would be surprised/flabbergasted if Littlefield never did
Let's check the tape:
He was in charge for the drafts from 2002-2007. BA only has bonus info for the last two years of that range. Possible over-slot picks:
2007: Tom Boleska (35th round, $100k)
2006: Brandon Holden (13th round, $155k), Ryan Kelly (26th round, $100k), Rudy Owens (28th round, $390k), Josue Peley (35th round, $110k)
That’s pretty slim. I don’t think $100k is technically over-slot for those late rounders, though it is more than guys taken in that area usually get, so it meets the spirit of the question (if not the letter).
Owens signed as a draft-and-follow.
Brad Clapp (2004, 19th) was a draft-and-follow and would definitely have gotten above-slot, but draft-and-follows weren’t really considered above-slot signings. The whole idea was to observe a guy for a year in JC ball and see whether he took off. Jose Bautista, for instance, went somewhere around 20th, but had a big year in JC ball and would have been about a 2nd round pick had the Pirates not signed him.
Strictly speaking, the only real above-slot signing DL ever made was Holden.
Thats just terrible...
I suspected something like this, but it’s even more depressing now actually reading this. I have to wonder though, during the two years that you have data, what was the MLB average on over-slot signings? I haven’t really followed the draft until recent years, so I frankly have no idea.
I should say...
What is the average, per MLB team, on kids signed over slot?
I can' think of any either ...
and if he did, it was overslot by $10,000, not like NH.
just wanted to say...
… that i stumbled on this site recently and am amazed at the wit and knowledge that you guys have… as a pirate fan, im used to the madmouthing by the Smuttings and smizikezezez of the world, and this is oh so refreshing; people who make sense. Thanks for keeping the faith and i’ll be checking out this blog for now on.
Welcome aboard. This is the best Pirates blog going IMO. Others have great posters, but this one has a ton of knowledge and enough volume to keep it fresh.
Yinzers uber alles
You just have to tempt the Baseball Gods!!!
nt
s.zielinski
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