SB Nation Pittsburgh Editor's Pick
Your 2010 Pittsburgh Pirates (Seen from 2007)
In 2007, Baseball America projected the Pittsburgh Pirates 2010 lineup as:
C: Ronny Paulino
1B: Adam LaRoche
2B: Freddy Sanchez
SS: Jack Wilson
3B: Neil Walker
LF: Jason Bay
CF: Andrew McCutchen
RF: Xavier Nady
SP1: Brad Lincoln
SP2: Ian Snell
SP3: Zach Duke
SP4: Tom Gorzelanny
SP5: Paul Maholm
CL: Matt Capps
(h/t Vlad, from Charlie's Draft story)
How would those Pittsburgh Pirates have done compared to the ones we're watching now? Well, thanks to the magic of Baseball Reference, we can take a look.
First, a top-level comparison.
Six position players (Paulino, LaRoche, Sanchez, Wilson, Bay, and Nady) are no longer with the Pirates. These players have a total WAR of 1.5, with a 2010 payroll of $28.525M.
Three pitchers (Snell, Gorzelanny, and Capps) are no longer with the Pirates. These three pitchers have a total WAR of 1.0, with a 2010 payroll of $8.55M.
Keeping these nine players would have contributed 2.5 WAR at a cost of $37.075M for the year.
Instead, we have the following (treated as if the players were with Pittsburgh for the whole year, which isn't necessarily the case):
C: Chris Snyder, at $2.25M ($5.25 salary, less $3M received from Arizona in the trade), gives 0.5 WAR
1B: Garret Jones, at $425k, gives -0.3 WAR.
SS: Ronny Cedeno, at $1.125M, gives 0.7 WAR
3B: Pedro Alvarez, at $500k, gives 0.2 WAR. (Walker replaces Sanchez at 2B.)
LF: Jose Tabata, at $400k, gives 1.0 WAR
RF: Lastings MIlledge, at $452k, gives -1.3 WAR.
SP: Ross Ohlendorf, at $439k, gives 1.7 WAR
SP: Jeff Karstens or James McDonald, at $400k, gives about 1.0 WAR (Karstens is at 1.1, McDonald after three starts at 0.6)
CL: Joel Hanrahan, at $453k, gives 0.7 WAR.
The total is a combined 4.2 WAR at a cost of about $6.9M.
Yes, compared to BA's 2007 projection, the actual Pirates prorate to about 2 wins better - and about $31M cheaper.
That doesn't even take into consideration the rest of the talent that was acquired in exchange for the players that are no longer with the Pirates:
Paulino: $1.1M, 0.4 WAR, traded for Jason Jaramillo, $417k, -0.7 WAR.
LaRoche: $4.5M, 0.6 WAR, traded for Hunter Strickland (A+) and Argenis Diaz.($400k, -0.1 WAR in the majors)
Sanchez: $6M, -0.2 WAR, traded for Tim Alderson (AA)
Wilson: $5M, 1.0 WAR, traded (with Snell) for Aaron Pribianic (A+), Brett Lorin (A), Nathan Adcock (A+), Ronny Cedeno ($1.125, 0.7 WAR), Jeff Clement ($405k, -0.7 WAR)
Jason Bay: $8.625M, 1.0 WAR, traded for Bryan Morris (AA), Andy LaRoche ($450k, -1.1 WAR), Craig Hansen (injured, A+), Brandon Moss (AAA)
Xavier Nady: $3.3M, -1.3 WAR, traded (with Damaso Marte, $4M, 0.2 WAR) for Jeff Karstens ($400k, 1.1 WAR), Daniel McCutchen ($400k, -0.7 WAR), Ross Ohlendorf ($439k, 1.7 WAR), Jose Tabata ($400k, 1.0 WAR)
Ian Snell: $4.45M, -1.2 WAR, in AAA, traded with Wilson (above)
Tom Gorzelanney: $800k, 1.8 WAR, traded (with John Grabow: $2.7M, -0.9 WAR, injured) for Josh Harrison (AA), Jose Ascanio (injured, A+), Kevin Hart (AAA).
Matt Capps: Non-tendered.
Even with perfect foreknowledge of outcomes, the only moves that can be considered to have been bad deals for the Pirates are Gorzo and maybe Paulino, who would have both been serviceable starters at reasonable prices.
- LaRoche is slightly better than the other 1B options, but at 10x the price.
- Sanchez is replacement level at 15x the price, and would have blocked Walker from 2B.
- Wilson and Snell - Cedeno is performing the same as Wilson for 1/4 the price, so that exchanges a $4.5M AAA pitcher for three prospects in A/A+ plus Jeff Clement, which is a deal the Pirates should take any day and twice on Sundays.
- Bay would have been a serviceable RF (assuming he'd move there with Tabata in LF), but again at 20x the price of the other myriad RF options.
- Nady is 2.3 WAR worse, $3M more expensive, and ten years older than Tabata. Marte is 0.9 WAR worse, $2.6M more expensive, and eight years older than Karstens. Even straight up, that deal is a swindle - and that doesn't count Ohlendorf and Dan McCutchen
Even non-tendering Capps was at worst a net wash and at best a win, as it opened the space to get Dotel, who turned into Lambo and McDonald.
So eight "major decisions" (seven trades and one non-tender involving the players that BA considered to be the Pirates' starting-level talent as of 2010), of which five are wins (one - Nady - huge), one a loss (Gorzo), and two somewhere around washes (Paulino slightly negative, the Capps non-tender slightly positive).
That's not bad management.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Jason Bay, Freddy Sanchez, and Jack Wilson have fallen off of a cliff this year
Bay has 6 HR and Freddy and Wilson can’t stay healthy. So I think we did well with those trades
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"And why do we fall, Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up." Thomas Wayne
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
We definitely sold them at the right time,
Whether we got the best available package is a different story. I’d like to see what the other offers were for Bay, Sanchez, Nady, McLouth, or even Gorzo.
Well...
Didn’t like Gorzo when it happened, but that’s another story.
As far as the rest…
Could you do better for Nady?
What, realistically, would have been better at the time for Freddy? It hasn’t panned out, of course, but Alderson seemed very generous at the time.
McLouth…not sure what to say about him except that there were no other offers (that we know of) because he wasn’t actively being shopped. But the deal he signed begged to be flipped, and rightfully so. Just too bad they didn’t do the same with Doumit when he signed.
Bay…meh…certainly could have done better, but we got a bit unlucky. Morris (assuming hes real) and a healthy Hansen (pitching late innings) wouldn’t be that bad at all. Not to mention that Andy was the “good LaRoche” at the time of the trade. Hindsight is 20/20 though…
A few weeks before the Sanchez trade last year, someone (Christina Kahrl, I believe) suggested the Pirates should go for broke and package Freddy and Adam LaRoche in order to get Alderson. So that gives you an idea of what people still thought about that kid just last year. I can’t imagine what else anyone would’ve given that was better at the time for just Freddy.
THE REAL REASON WE DIDNT RECIEVE TOP QUALITY IN TRADES IS...
we didnt exactly trade anyone of great value. Other than Bay, whom everyone else knew was going to want a fortune in free agency, not one of the players we dealt were in great demand. All were pieces to already established lineups. and when you see one of our exPirates struggle, it didnt take long for their new team to sit them down… we didnt trade a Halladay, or Sabathia, or Peavy, or Texierra.
One note
While I certainly agree with the overall argument of your post, it should be considered that in terms of the trades, we do have to look at the players’ values at the time of the trades.
For example, Bay has fallen off a cliff like you said, but the argument could be made that the Pirates could have received a better return for him at the time (although Andy certainly had greater value then than he does now). So while we know that it obviously would have been a bad idea to extend Bay’s contract, I’d put the Bay deal in the “wash” category, since maybe they could’ve received a better return from Tampa, worked out a better deal in the offseason, etc. Of course the final verdict really comes down to what Morris can do in the bigs.
Just want to add
That this is an excellent post, very well-researched and constructed. Not sure if I got that across with my previous post.
What a ridiculous idea
everyone knows that you only make the good trades and not the bad ones…
also, you dont get Laroche, Hansen or Moss, you get Casey Kelly (!!!), Buchholz and Dewitt, or Kershaw!
good trades would have been better and bad trades not made… all these blogs…
/sarcasm
Things not known
The eternal problem with the “could the Pirates have gotten a better return” question is that it is fundamentally unknowable. The only people who know what other offers were out there are the respective GMs, and they aren’t talking. It’s just as likely that the Pirates could have received a worse return for Bay. But we’ll never know that, either.
Given the lack of information, an argument about whether a GM could have made a “better” deal is an angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin argument – people can go around indefinitely, and there is no way of ever determining who wins. Which can be an entertaining diversion, but is ultimately pointless…
This is a great post ...
I think the point on Bay is legitimate. He was essentially the only top-tier talent at the time.
Maybe they should have taken another package.
But hindsight is wonderful.
Time Factor
And yes, to truly evaluate the “value” of the trades, you would have to do some kind of integration over time. The Pirates actually gave up 1/3 of 2008 Jason Bay (0.4 WAR) and all of 2009 Jason Bay (5.2 WAR), as well as 2010 Jason Bay.
On the other hand, there’s a “marginal value” issue as well – with 2009 Jason Bay instead of 2/3 Nyjer Morgan (0.9 WAR) and 1/3 Lastings Milledge (-1.1 WAR), the Pirates would have been expected to win 5 or 6 more games – finishing maybe 68-93 instead of 62-99. Is that – at a cost of $7.8M – worth more than Morris and Hansen in 2012-2013+ and Brandon Moss in 2011+? We won’t know until 2012-2013 rolls around, we see what value they bring, and how much of a difference that makes.
I think I would much rather have Nyjer's and Lasting's defense last year
as opposed to a breaking down Jason Bay try to play out there in LF
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"And why do we fall, Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up." Thomas Wayne
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Aug 18, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
no, thank you
This is a helpful post that ought to sober up some critics (even though it probably won’t)
I'm a little confused...
…as to how the Jeff Karstens/James McDonald combo nets a higher WAR than Gorzo/Snell/Capps. Does Snell’s crappiness pull down Gorzo and Capps that much?
yes
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"And why do we fall, Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up." Thomas Wayne
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Aug 18, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Pitching comparo
Yes.
SP Snell: -1.2 WAR
SP Gorzo: 1.8 WAR
CL Capps: 1.1 WAR (WSN+MIN)
Total: 1.7 WAR
SP Ohlie: 1.7 WAR
SP Karstens/McDonald: 1.0 WAR (Karstens has already contributed 1.1 and McDonald is already at 0.6, but some of Karstens is in relief and McDonald is a small sample size – 1.0 is a conservative estimate.)
CL Hanrahan: 0.7 WAR
Total 3.4 WAR
Or, looked at another way — Ohlie has provided basically identical value to Gorzo. Hanrahan has been about half a win worse than Capps. And the Karstens/McDonald combo is two wins better than the black hole of suck that is Ian Snell’s 2010.
is anyone else
surprised at how little the total cost of our payroll would be had we kept all these guys. i think it would be somewhere in the 60Mil range. The Pirates could easily handle that kind of MLB payroll which leaves me to believe there is clearly room to re-sign some of our high talent we now have on the roster such as Cutch and Pedro down the road here.
There's not a doubt in my mind
that there will be plently of money to re-sign our young core of emerging stars when the time comes, and I have no doubt that NH will be here to take care of it, and it will get done. I think the bigger emerging problem will be how do we find a way to protect all the young talent that has been brought into the minor league system in the last 3 years. There will be some very difficult 40 man decisions way down the road. We’re going to lose some of these young arms in Rule 5 I’m sure. But what a great problem to have.
That's why...
you trade those guys for established veterans who could help out the club right away. If we are in contention that’s what we would have to do.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
The difference is, though, Cutch and Pedro will command higher salaries than any of those players except Bay.
Pirates, Vikings, Hokies. I'm used to heartbreak. At least I have the Penguins....
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-The Great One
by blackjackfishtaco on Aug 19, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
not really
or well, it depends on how long you want to lock them up for. Cutch is in his 1st full year, so a Justin Upton-esque, 6 years/55M? preferably one that kicks in after his second year… so you more data to evaluate him and the system before deciding.
Alvarez might well be gone in 6 years… Boras! And if he needs a 6 year 70M deal after his first full year, I’d wait a bit before committing to it!
My point is...
which of those players would you give that money to aside from Bay?
Pirates, Vikings, Hokies. I'm used to heartbreak. At least I have the Penguins....
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-The Great One
by blackjackfishtaco on Aug 19, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Jose
but the sample size isn’t really big enough for me to be real sure about that
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Don't wory, I'm an untrained professional" WVPF
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Aug 20, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I meant from the older players. I would have never given them “Upton money”
Pirates, Vikings, Hokies. I'm used to heartbreak. At least I have the Penguins....
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-The Great One
by blackjackfishtaco on Aug 20, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Nate McClouth
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Don't wory, I'm an untrained professional" WVPF
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Aug 20, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions

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