John Russell Doesn't Want to Win
by WTM on Aug 21, 2010 12:04 AM EDT
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PrintJohn Russell decided today to imitate a football coach who's hopelessly down in the last seconds and just lets the clock run out. The only problems: it was the 4th inning, and baseball doesn't have a clock. Russell inexplicably let Sean Gallagher bat with the Pirates trailing, 7-2, runners on second and third and two out. Gallagher grounded out. The crowd, being more familiar with baseball than Russell, booed.
Russell's explanation:
Well, we’re in the fourth inning. We’ve got a lot of game to cover. ... You feel like we’ve got five more chances, with the top of the order due up the next inning, to do something. Gallagher was able to give us much-needed innings. You’d like to get the runs, but you have to realize there’s still a lot of game left. You start taxing your bullpen and your bench early in a 7-2 game or whatever it was, and it’s not going to be a very good situation for us.
Translation: "It's more important to conserve the bullpen than to win." What he was conserving is a mystery. Chris Resop, Heave Ho Park and Evan Meek hadn't pitched the day before, and Wil Ledezma was obviously able to contribute an inning. Russell also thought it was vital to save his pinch-hitters for a better opportunity than runners on second and third. Maybe he thought they might be able to get two runners on each base. He probably forgot that they tried that earlier this year and it didn't work. Or maybe Russell thinks runs count more in the 9th inning than the 4th. In the end, Garrett Jones, Delwyn Young and Andy LaRoche all together batted the same number of times as Gallagher, and that AB came with two fewer baserunners than Gallagher saw.
Russell's been doing things like this all year. He doesn't manage to win. (Ooohh, double entendre.) He manages to get through the game with no fatalities and to have an educational experience. He doesn't look for an edge, he looks for an out, a way to get safely back to his office and reflect on how well he's sticking to "the process."
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Maybe JR is managing poorly, to get Rendon.
In that case, he’s a terrific manager.
I agree
and I have no problem with it. Winning should be our last priority and that’s perfectly acceptable.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 21, 2010 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll be at the game Sunday...
I’ll be at the game Sunday with my nephew, our first this season. I’ll be on the lookout for typical JR behaviour, as I’ve noticed this nonsense since early last year. This kind of stuff just has to bring every player under him that understands the game and wants to win to absolute tears. It’s no wonder Varsho and Dave Kerwin butted heads with this obvious front office “yes man”. I know NH and co. think this is best policy at this time with rebuilding and all, but man, at some point you’ve got to have a guy the players believe in, otherwise you’ll just end up with disillusioned/disgruntled talent.
my theory
JR is on specific orders from NH to make as many “bad decisions” as he can in in-game situations to give the Pirates the lowest chance to win, to increase our chance at number one overall next year. Why else were the Pirates sending Ryan Church, Charlie Morton and/or Ryan Doumit out there on a regular basis? JR is taking the heat, being the sacrificial lamb if you will, and down the road once we start winning I will try my hardest to remind fellow Bucco fans that JR indeed was a part of the road to winning
by 2010 will be the year on Aug 21, 2010 12:45 AM EDT reply actions
Bob Smizik’s theory was the exact opposite of that. He thinks Russell will be fired because the team doesn’t want to end up with the first overall pick. The reason? Nutting is too cheap to pay for it.
He seriously wrote that about a week ago.
Pretty sure he also stole it from a John Perrotto tweet that said the same thing. This was right around the time that Perrotto “reported” that the team would only sign one of Taillon or Allie, because Nutting did not want to pay for both.
Yeah
Perrotto has become the poster child of the journalist going postal against his previous employer.
It’s the perception of journalists that Nutting is cheap in running the news business and therefore he will be cheap in running the MLB business. Basically, Perrotto’s sources for that story were obviously only his own experiences and what he surmised from that.
by MarkInDallas on Aug 21, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Nutting is so cheap...
He fired Perrotto and gave the money he was gonna spend on Perrotto to Stetson Allie.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 21, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you sure
it wasn’t to pay Pedro?
It was a while back, IIRC…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 21, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Quite frankly
I don’t want us to win this year. Do I want Rendon? Absolutely. IF he’s the best player available in next years draft. Do I want Purke? Absolutely. IF he’s the best player in next year’s draft. But, whoever IS the best player in next year’s draft, I want. And the only way to get them is pick first
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perfect
statement
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 21, 2010 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions
He is
shall we say, less than imaginative. Imagine this scenario: Steve Nicosia has just gone four for four, and he’s due up with the bases loaded. Tug McGraw is pitching for the Phillies, one of the toughest lefty relievers in the game. Stevie Nicks hits from the right side. But I’m manager John Russell, and I have a hunch that lefty swinging John The Hammer Milner is going to take the Tugger deep and win the game with a walk off granny. Or not. The process dictates that we go with The Book. Stevie’s luck runs out. Ballgame. But hey, we stuck with the process.
Ha
I had forgotten that Chuck went against the platoon splits there. Milner was, um, not good versus LHP so it was probably the wrong decision even though it worked out spectacularly.
But...
Milner was actually 5-19 (.263) against Tug. Now if it were Stargell against Joe Hoerner (.138 in 33 PA with 14K)…that would have been going against platoon splits. Stargell said of him trying to hit Hoerner…“Trying to hit him is like trying to eat soup with a fork.”
But prior to the grand slam
Milner was 1 for 12 vs the Tugboat. So it still wasn’t the right move, it was just the move that worked. For last night’s game, even if Gallagher manages to get a hit, it’s still the wrong move because it goes against the percentages.
I was at that game.
I think I even have pictures, somewhere (I had a photo pass), of the team carrying Milner off the field on their shoulders.
Perhaps more memorable, between games I was sitting behind the first base dugout, and some woman managed to crawl to the edge of the dugout roof and get an autograph or a phone number or something, She was so happy she stood up and started jumping up and down on the dugout roof, whereupon one boob popped out of the one-shoulder top she was wearing and started jumping up and down with her. She didn’t notice for about five seconds until the crowd started cheering. Then she turned bright red.
We won the second game too.
It was a great day.
BTW, Tanner once told me, “I never made a bad decision, they just didn’t all turn out.”
Also
At that game and weekend series. 5 wins in 3 days v the Phillies. From the time Milner got out on deck, I was booing (I was 11). I booed as he hit the ball down the right field line, because I knew it would hook foul. Never hooked.
Only games I attended in ’79.
Would love to see that pic, 'daddy.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 21, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
There needs to be a sort of a collection of pictures from the old days. Ya know, pre-PNC Park and maybe even some from pre-TRS. That would be awesome for us younger fans.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 21, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Whippersnapper…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 21, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I take it you mean
Milner. Unfortunately, I did not have a camera at the ready for the between-games boobtacular.
No...
If Steve went up and struck out or whatever, it wouldn’t have been the ballgame. It would have gone on to the 10th inning. It was a tie ballgame at that point.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 21, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Was it tied then?
Funny he we remember these things as so much more dramatic than they were (though this was). I didn’t get a chance to pull up the boxscore.
by RichieHebner on Aug 22, 2010 1:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My opinion for what its worth
I truly think the turning point where the players lost respect for JR was against the Dodgers when McCutchen was thrown at right in the earhole twice by Ortiz and JR just sat with his hands on his ass and didn’t even come out to argue.
I think the players tuned him out from that point forward, knowing that he wasn’t backing them. Would you want to play for a guy like that?
It’s clear to me that Varsho was a forceful and respected influence in the dugout than JR, and its not surprising that they butted heads. They got rid of the wrong guys imo.
I would have loved to have seen Varsho given a shot with this group this year and into next year. He has the kind of tough, passionate attitude that young players, and this group of young players in particular respond to.
by Andy C. on Aug 21, 2010 1:48 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Maybe...
someone needs to remind the zombie that the Pirates offense has scored more than 7 runs (which it would have taken to win the game at that point)…exactly once since the offensive outburst of July 20-21 vs the Brewers. And that was the Pedro walkoff game 2 weeks ago.
You play for the runse when you can get them. If you blow out the middle relievers…that’s what Indy’s pitching staff is there for. Not like we don’t have any middle relievers that we absolutely couldn’t afford to cut. Say like, Heave Ho.
WTM
Do you think JR is a problem ? I think he has done the best he can .
I don't
He’s the worst in-game manager I’ve ever seen.
by WTM on Aug 21, 2010 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’d argue that’s not “in game” management. I mean, when you have Tike Redman in the line-up period, you have to acknowledge that you’re working with a short deck to start with.
No argument here, but still not an excuse for terrible decisions.
That being said, as I stated below, I don’t think we should be that worried about decisions made during 2010 and 2011 in terms of on the field with the exception of playing time.
I'm with WTM
The Pirates lack of talent has obscured JR’s lack of sense. It’s not as noticeable when you have other large problems, but if you look, it’s there. John Russell is bad at his job.
Yeah
I wouldn’t trust him with a good team.
by RichieHebner on Aug 22, 2010 1:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
True and
even though he doesn’t what he’s best at (losing games), he is setting us up for a HIGH pick next year, He isn’t losing on purpose but same result; the problem becomes when in the future those problems become critical, he will do the same thing and lose games. I do not like to toss managers but I think after this season, the smart thing is to find a manager who can make smart baseball decisions.
Tom Specht
Lose Russell and hire a Tony
Either La Russa or Pena will do.
by buccobob_houstontx on Aug 21, 2010 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
But he wins
I brings respect. Both are just what Pirates need.
by buccobob_houstontx on Aug 21, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Oops!
Meant to say, “and brings respect”.
by buccobob_houstontx on Aug 21, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
he wins with good talent
if he had managed the bucs this season, they’d probably be 42-80 rather than 40-82. it’s irrational, i know, but i just dont care for larussa
I agree La Russa is the Phil Jackson of baseball
but most good managers follow the talent. Let’s not look past the fact that we have talent now – with players such as Alvarez, Tabata, Walker, and maybe Mc Donald – but Russell evidently can’t maximize it. Plus along with La Russa comes Duncan. Isn’t it worth holding our collective noses for a few years of La Russa in order to return to respectability?
by buccobob_houstontx on Aug 21, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
If he comes with Dave Duncan
I’ll take him in a heartbeat, although I’m not sure if there’s a man who can do anything with our beleaguered staff. You’re probably right. LaRussa could probably take our talent and mold into a pretty decent ballclub. I’m just saying I’m not a fan of him, that’s all
larussa???
im also a Rays fan, and you think hiring a well known guy for manager makes a diference? the rays hired Pinella and they finished last all 3 years. pinella’s won a world series, surely he must help the team turn the corner??? puh leeeeeeeze.
LaRussa isn't really great at molding talent,
He’s had an elite bat (Mac/Pujols) for the past 15 years, and he has had a good group of players around them for a good offense. He gets good production out of guys like Ludwick, Ankiel, and David Freese, but I’m not sure how much of that is the player and how much is the manager.
On the pitching side, Dave Duncan is terrific at fixing pitchers. Duncan made Carpenter an ace, and has at least helped Wainwright become an elite pitcher. Just by looking at what Jaime Garcia is doing this year, you have to give Duncan credit.
I’d say that while Tony LaRussa does do a good job, I would still give more credit to the GM and Dave Duncan. The GM has consistently provided impact bats to the Cards’ lineup, and Duncan has re-established their pitchers.
I don’t know how important a manager really is, but LaRussa has won with some teams that appeared to have mediocre talent.
As for Russell, I’m sure he wanted to win. He should have pinch hit, but maybe he’s under strict orders not to put too much wear and tear on certain relievers — especially after that game when Meek threw all those pitches — so he wanted to get more work from Gallagher.
I've read on this blog
that a great manager is probably worth 5-10 more wins than a horrible manager, so in the grand scheme of things, it’s not that important. I’ll leave you to judge for yourself where Russell belongs on that spectrum.
Point well taken, but to me this is a positive.
If you aren’t going to contend for a playoff spot, I’d rather have as many losses as possible and continue to collect the first pick.
Russell isn’t important to the franchise, and he definitely won’t be here when the Pirates are competitive. I have no problem with him continuing to take the hit during the ugliest part of the rebuilding process, which is 2010 and 2011.
JR is not a good manager which is a good thing because if he keeps managing games this way.......
we will be able to draft Rendon, the 3B from Rice who some “experts” compare to Evan Longoria and has a whole lot of power. Look at the Nationals, they tanked to get Strasburg and Harper and those two will turn around that franchise. Hopefully Taillon, Pedro Alvarez, Allie and Anthony Rendon can turn our team around.
Truth be told…..John Russell is a horrible manager who simply lacks fire and he can’t motivate this team. They play with 0 effort for him but he got an 1yr extension.
Kenneth Lewis Moore
No.....
the Pirates don’t play with zero effort. That is just flat wrong. They rarely if ever dog it. I don’t credit or discredit JR with that. These are almost all young guys trying to prove they belong in the major leagues. That is not close to the issue with this team.
Also, “experts” shouldn’t compare Rendon and Longoria. They have little in common other than playing the same position.
www.thehammerspeaks.com
Twitter: @hammerspeaks
Thank you.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 21, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I have this memory of Russell’s decision-making as a 3rd base coach and just now took some time to confirm it at baseball-reference.com:
Cubs at PNC on Friday, Sept. 2, 2005
Pirates down 7-3 with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th, J. Wilson on 2nd and Sanchez on 1st. If Mackowiak can reach base then Bay comes up as the tying run. Mackowiak whacks a single to left and RUSSELL SENDS WILSON WITH 2 OUTS AND THE TYING RUN COMING TO BAT. Wilson is thrown out at the plate with Bay looking on in shock (my assumption here on the “shock”). How does a 3rd base coach make that mistake? To this day it is the worst coaching decision I’ve seen.
When Russell was hired as manager, I just hoped that this play was a brain cramp and not in any way indicative of his ability to make in-game decisions…
Heck, that’s better than what I see now. At least he was trying to score a run. Now he manages like a guy who’s resigned to losing and only cares about whether he has enough relievers left for tomorrow.
The simplest explanation is always the best: Russell let Gallagher bat because he’d given up on the game. Great lesson for Alvarez, Walker, et al.
by WTM on Aug 21, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There's no doubt he gave up on the game.
He’s done that many times this year. Many times. When the manager doesn’t think his team can come back from 4 or 5 runs down, why would the players?
by MarkInDallas on Aug 21, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How does a 3rd base coach make that mistake??
The same way Tony Beasley does…easily!! Beasley works for Russell…where did you think he learned it from??
What are the odds that JR gets fired this offseason?
I’d say it’s pretty likely. Since June, (when Tabata, Walker, Alvarez, Lincoln arrived) we are 19-51. I realize that offense alone can’t win, but JR has even ruined that by playing DY, Church, Doumit, Aki, and Crosby so much this season.
Does anyone know any good candidates out there? Buck Showalter was the only one I could think of, and he just took the O’s job.
Really?
I thought it was leaving Meek in with a 1-0 lead and not taking him out after he appeared to be limping.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 21, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
That was real low, by not even trying to win the game was real real low.
by BucsFaninCA on Aug 21, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Milledge hitting .313 vs LHP…Doumit hitting .187 vs LHP. LHP pitching for the Mets tonight. Who’s starting?? Doumit. When asked why Doumit is playing, Russell replied “Ryan’s swinging a good bat right now”. He’s had 2 HR in the last 3 games…his only hits in his last 22 AB.
Reason 3,134.235 why it’s obvious JR isn’t trying to win.
Your confusing.....
trying to win and understanding the numbers. He said Church had to come going out there when he was 4-40, hitting .100.
He IS trying to win. He just doesn’t get it.
www.thehammerspeaks.com
Twitter: @hammerspeaks
Yeah, but
by playing Church every day, they showcased him for the Dodgers. He was obviously the key to that haul we got for a load of crap.
Maybe he was showcased for the Dodgers
That’s why he was traded to Arizona.
by MarkInDallas on Aug 22, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Pirates have scored
more than seven runs exactly one time in their last 28 games. Giving up a chance to score one or two in that situation is inexcusable.
www.thehammerspeaks.com
Twitter: @hammerspeaks
What a weird, arbitrary stat.
I don’t deny the offense is struggling, but there are far better statistics to use to get that point across. That leaves open the possibility that the Pirates have scored at least 7 runs in each of the past 28 games, which, if the case, would be awesome.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooh,
nevermind. I understand now it was made in the context of yesterday’s game and not to make a general point. I retract my previous claim of arbitrariness and offer an apology.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Doumit
The man crush continues, they had to get rid of Church to stop it before, now they are going to have to get rid of Doumit to stop.
JR has done more to get fired than any manager in history, he should give lessons to people on how to screw up and never get fired.
My theory from previous discussion is that they are trying to pump up DOH-mit's
numbers in hopes of suckering some team into trading for him.
NH “I’ll trade you DOH-mit, he can play right field and he’s a legit power threat”
However, likely result will be:
ALL GM’s “HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA”
You're hatred for Doumit is on par with Nutting's for Nutting.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Comparing Doumit to Church is kinda absurd.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
In general, I think complaints about Russell are overstated...
…but that was a pretty terrible decision all the way around. If you’re worried about having enough pitchers for tomorrow’s game, steal a guy from Altoona for a couple days. Sheesh.
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