News Roundup: Charlie Morton In Line For Start Sunday
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 25, 2010 2:30 AM EDT
Email
PrintFun game tonight - the ninth inning was very suspenseful, and it was great to see Evan Meek pull through. Ronny Cedeno's hustle in backing up Pedro Alvarez on the Albert Pujols single might have saved the game for the Bucs; I'm not sure I would've liked how the game would have turned out if that hadn't happened.
A bunch of quick notes tonight:
-P- Dan McCutchen will start in place of Jeff Karstens tonight, and someone, probably Charlie Morton, will have to take Ross Ohlendorf's turn on Sunday. I'm fine with that, and it makes sense to me to give Morton as many chances as possible in meaningless games, but his minor league line since being demoted doesn't really impress me much - those 53 strikeouts in 80 innings are pretty ugly. (I have a bit more to say about this over at SB Nation Pittsburgh, a lot of which will probably be familiar if you've followed the Morton debates in the comment threads here.)
-P- I'm guessing most of you probably read the fanposts already, but if you don't, there were a bunch of good ones about the Pirates' financial situation today that I didn't feel comfortable promoting because I frankly just didn't have the chops or the time to verify that all the numbers added up. Anyway, here's D.G. Lewis on the papers' coverage of the financial situation and whether the Pirates can afford to win. JRoth95 has a good fanpost on a similar topic.
-P- One thing I do feel comfortable evaluating is Ron Cook's rambling column on John Russell and ... uh ... the Pirates' finances. The really weird bit is this, which appears completely out of nowhere:
Nutting and Coonelly made a big deal this week about opening the franchise's books a crack to point out that Nutting isn't making the profits that many people think. That's supposed to make us feel better? All it did for me was confirm my belief that Nutting is a bad owner. It doesn't matter if he isn't willing or can't afford to properly fund the Pirates on the major league level. Either way, they're still underfunded.
Maybe it's just me, but don't you usually get what you pay for in America?
Well, yeah - I mean, Ron Cook's columns aren't behind a paywall, right? But seriously: see if you can find any sort of logic in there. Nutting and Coonelly didn't "make a big deal" about opening the books. They opened them because someone leaked their financial documents to the AP. They weren't trying to "make us feel better," they were just trying to explain what the documents said before someone else released them.
It is no surprise that the release of the financial information confirmed Ron Cook's belief that Nutting is a bad owner. There is a certain group of people for whom any bit of information confirms that belief. When Ron Cook pours his cereal in the morning and discovers he's out of milk, I'm sure the first thing that pops into his head is, "This confirms my belief that Bob Nutting is a bad owner." The information that was released suggested that Nutting isn't making any money from the Pirates, so what Cook seems to want is an owner who will dump tens of millions of his or her own money on the team just because.
-P- The leak of financial information may have come from an insurance carrier for several big-league teams.
-P- The Diamondbacks have released Bobby Crosby.
-P- Nothing hugely noteworthy from the minors last night, although bonus baby Ryan Hafner made his pro debut with the GCL Pirates, pitching an inning in relief. He allowed two runs on two hits, but he also struck out two.
78 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Ron Cook
I absolutely love the article, truth hurts people cookie has great points, but let me guess you folks will rag on him because he makes a good point about your fearless leader…get over yourselves and see the bigger picture.
by baseballssp3 on Aug 25, 2010 6:48 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
One of my favorite Ron Cook points:
It’s very simple: Simon is a steal, published November 27, 2002.
Hard to find comedy that good.
funny in a sad way
You have to read it twice it’s so bad.
He actually says this:
They’re not looking to win a championship, merely to finish .500 for the first time in 11 years.
I think the idea is to win championships.
Here is a link to the glorious #’s for Randall Simon and his negative WAR:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/simonra01.shtml#batting_standard
Yinzers uber alles
Cook seldom has a point
He’s always been their worst columnist because at least the other guys can spark some outrage once in awhile with either their brilliance or their stupidity. Cook is just meh. He writes some stuff and once in a great while I read it and 30 seconds later I forget it. I’m still not sure why he ever got hired there as a columnist, unless it was at a time the PG was trying to make a push into Beaver County and thought it would help to steal the sports columnist from the Times. I don’t think he’s a bad guy or anything, not saying that. I just don’t think he has much to say that’s a) very coherent or b) very interesting. When I try to think of their lineups of columnists, my thought process goes: 1) O’Neill; 2) Norman; 3) Collier; 4) Smizik 5) … … … … … … … … um, Sally Kalson? 6) ……………… ……………. ………… I know there’s one I’m missing …………. ……………. ……………… …………….. ……………. ………………
yes
I too would love to hear what “great points” you think he makes. Do tell.
Okay, let me try to understand your logic baseballssp3
If you don’t bash the Nuttings, your a Nutting fanboy. So if you don’t like Ron Cook’s dribble then you are a Nutting fanboy. Does that make you a Cook fanboy?
So basically by your logic it’s impossible for anyone to think for themselves because no matter what they think, they end up being a fanboy.
If you want to think for yourself why not start by making some great points of your own instead of mindlessly bashing people without a good reason which is what Cook does and gets paid to do because he knows there are a lot of people that don’t think for themselves.
by Seven_Patch on Aug 25, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Morton
I’m fine w/ taking another look at Morton. Hopefully this one goes better.
Yinzers uber alles
Ron Cook.
To his wife: Look, we’re out of milk and I have plenty of cereal. I think this confirms my belief that you’re a terrible grocery shopper.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 25, 2010 8:10 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Yep
It’s the same line of thinking that says “Since the governement denies the existence of aliens that only proves that there are aliens”.
Of course that thought process has nothing to do with the actual matter at hand.
by Seven_Patch on Aug 25, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
There are aliens.
What do you think Bob Nutting, Ogden Nutting and the rest of the family is? Humans?
I laugh at your assumption that the Nuttings are just regular people. The aliens are here and they’re starting with destroying the Pittsburgh Pirates. Today, the Pirates, tomorrow the world.
Or are you part of the conspiracy!?!?!?!?!??!?!
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 26, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
to be fair
that REALLY SUX when you pour out some cereal and someone leaves less than a shotglass worth of milk in the carton. Because then you have to have toast and your hearts not really in it.
by BlindSquirrel on Aug 25, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno
I put milk on my oat meal and then put it in the microwave and add strawberries. I think Oatmeal is supposed to be soggy.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 26, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Morton
I can’t explain this in a coherent way, but I think starting Morton again in the bigs is a bad idea. I think his problems are mental and he would be better off with a fresh start next year. If he’s bad again this year, it will be that much harder to build any confidence for 2011.
I agree with your bigger picture that another bad run will be hard to overcome...
But I think there is less pressure on him to do well at the end of this season than there would be at the beginning of next season. Probably gives him a better shot at success at regaining confidence to do it when the games are essentially exhibition games.
I doubt
Morton looks at it as “less pressure.” Let’s face it, the Pirates haven’t played a game under pressure since, what, 1992? He’d do well to approach EVERY game like it’s game 7 of the World Series, no? And if you’re a competitive athlete, that’s the way it should be. You want a guy who thinks, “Well, it’s late August and we’re 30 games out, nobody cares much, I can pitch this one on cruise control”?
I don’t really have any hope for Morton any more. The problem, though, is that he’s out of options. It’s really a choice between seeing if his problems have gone into remission now or opening next year with him in the rotation.
Unless I’ve missed something, though, it’s not clear he’s going to replace Ohlie.
i said as much in a gamethread a while back
but as WTM points out, we do have roster decisions to make, and for the first time perhaps, we might need to start cutting players who could potentially make a difference. If he pitches well, there is some reason to keep him… if not perhaps it gives him an added chance to make it through waivers…
by BurgherKing on Aug 25, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Stick Morton in the pen.
He hasn’t really done anything in Indy to make me think he’ll be successful this year in Pittsburgh. His stuff could play in the bullpen for an inning or two. We could try him again as a starter next season but something just isn’t quite right with Morton right now.
Bobby Crosby
Didn’t Arizona also take Church off our hands? I haven’t been following Pirates related news, did they release him too?
Another blatant salary dump...
…by NH and company. I mean, why couldn’t they have kept paying Ryan Church for scintillating numbers like those?
SALE THE TEAM!!
Mario wouldn’t let him go!
by BlindSquirrel on Aug 25, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm no fan of Ron Cook
But the defense of Bob Nutting on this site amazes me. What evidence is there that he is anything but a subpar owner. It’s obvious that he either does not have the resources needed to make the Pirates competitive, or lacks the desire to do so. This ownership group places profit above winning, plain and simple.
Also, please don’t respond to this comment with posts about Heredia, Taillon and Allie. A team in the Pirates position is supposed to draft and sign the best available talent. I mean, the amount of praise showered on the Pirates for merely doing what is expected of them has been amazing.
"What evidence is there that he is anything but a subpar owner."
The same year that he took over, he fired all the incompetents who’d been running the team into the ground under McClatchy: Littlefield, Creech, Graham, Tracy, the whole bunch. He dramatically increased spending on the draft and international free agents. He put millions of dollars into facilities improvements. He authorized an actual rebuilding job, even though he had to know that doing so would bring him nothing but opprobium from clueless yinzers. He purchased and moved an entire minor league team to Bradenton in order to improve training and player logistics.
And yet people like you still treat him like he’s some kind of penny-pinching absentee landlord. It boggles the mind.
I mean, you're actually criticizing him...
…for doing things that by your own admission the team should be doing, and had not been doing before he took over. Try and get your head around that one.
Is there even such a thing as a business owner that doesn't care about profit?
That is one of the most absurd misconceptions in sports. Every owner for every team in every sport since the beginning of sports has cared about profits. The difference between a owner of a winning franchise and the owner of a losing franchise is competence.
Vlad makes valid points that show Nutting is far more competent than McClatchy was. Does that mean Nutting is perfect, heck no and he should be held accountable for poor decisions but a lot of the reasons why people hate or dislike him are groundless malarkey. If you are going to bash Nutting, find a semi-decent reason.
dont worry Vlad
superope will reply to you in a different thread at a time in the future, with exactly the same things as he said above!
The year he took over
I think that is a misnomer. Wasn’t the Nutting family in control of the board for a few years before Bob “officially” took over?
I think it's just
refreshing to see the FO do what they’re supposed to do after so many years of them not doing it.
And that’s not a good thing?
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly
Through all this noise over financial statements lately, this is the one point that boggles my mind the most. That people just cannot wrap their heads around the fact that professional sports exist to provide profit to those who owns the teams. Period. Nothing else.
Not according to DK.....
He said in the Q&A the other day (I’m too lazy to pull the exact quote) that professional teams are owned to win championships. I literally laughed out loud and spit my drink on the screen when I read that.
www.thehammerspeaks.com
Twitter: @hammerspeaks
Just curious...
How is it obvious that Nutting “lacks the desire” to make the Pirates competitive? I see people repeat this over and over like it’s a known fact, without any evidence to support it.
Vlad, WTM, others.. Not criticizing Nutting for what he has done since he has taken over..
As alot of us often point out, he has done the right things since taking over such as international facilities, signings, drafting, etc. but the one thing superope does point out, that I’m not yet convinced of, is the question of resources.
Will Bob Nutting (Not in the Greenburg, Cuban, Burkle mega rich mold) ever have the financial resources to make this a competitive team year in and year out in an increasingly uncompetitive market?
It isn’t his fault he’s not a billionaire owner, and he has no reason to be forced to sell the team, but this just brings up a bigger question for me: Do small market teams need to be owned by the richest of rich to be consistently competitive in Major League Baseball?
Resources
Is there any evidence that any owner puts money into their team (as opposed to not taking money out)?
The Yankees don’t have a $200M+ payroll because the Steinbrenners are pouring in cash from their shipbuilding business (which, by the way, they bankrupted and sold off). The Yankees have a $200M+ payroll because they generate over $440M of annual revenue.
I don’t think it matters whether the Pirates are owned by the Nuttings, Burkle/Lemieux, Mark Cuban, or Bill Gates. Their payroll will be defined by the revenues that they can generate.
Given that owners aren't in the business to lose money...
…the depth of the owner’s pockets is mostly irrelevant, as long as he has at least enough money to make the kind of payroll that we’re carrying now. A billionaire owner would still want to see revenue growth ahead before investing much more in this team than Nutting is right now.
I mean, David Glass is richer than most MLB owners, but you don’t see him throwing nickels around, right?
Ramirez
The Nutting’s could have cut a check rather than give the best young player on the team away for nothing.
Draft of Moskos over Wieters. The Morris acquisition was cover for the blow up among the fans that this caused.
Drafting Tony Sanchez for slot instead of Purke or Matzek
Failure to sign Sano due to initial low ball attempts
Not competitively courting Chapman
Not paying Perry Hill even though you were planning on converting a catcher into your opening day first baseman.
Hiring a little league coach to be the minor league infield coordinator
Hiring a GM who was demoted at his last post.
Hiring Coonelly to stay in Selig’s good graces
Current major league coaching staff has one member that might be employed elsewhere in the majors.
Is that enough?
Let's take those in order:
*The Ramirez trade happened while McClatchy was the owner.
*The drafting of Moskos convinced Nutting that Littlefield wasn’t a good GM, and was a large part of why Nutting fired Littlefield.
*Drafting Tony Sanchez doesn’t look like a mistake to me anymore, given his strong pro performance to date.
*The failure to sign Sano is the fault of Sano’s agent, who promised the front office that they could beat existing bids and then refused to let them submit a bid.
*Chapman is an interesting prospect, but probably not worth the money that he got. He’s walking almost five batters per nine against AAA competition – he’s still very much a work in progress.
*Clement was a perfectly fine defender without Hill’s help.
*Do you mean the Minor League Fielding Coordinator, Steve Lombardozzi? He was a glove-first MLB player, which is about all the pedigree that anybody in that job ever has.
*Huntington has done a fine job for us.
*Coonelly has done a fine job for us.
*Seems like that would be a hard position to justify, given that Garcia, Beasley, and Dorante have already held positions on the ML coaching staff of other clubs. And it’s not like the other guys have inadequate resumes – Don Long, for example, has been a college head coach, minor league manager, and minor league hitting coordinator.
So upon review, approximately none of those are valid objections. Who could have guessed?
so
Nutting was not in position to contribute cash to keep Ramirez? Really?
I’d rather have Purke or Matzek than Sanchez
Getting played by an agent hints to the incompetency of this F.O. which was hired by Nutting.
You know what though, keep drinking the Kool aid, while the losing streak grows, and ownership continues to pull in profits.
Nutting was not in position to contribute cash to keep Ramirez? Really?
Really. If one partner puts in cash, it dilutes the other partners’ shares. Nutting wasn’t free to do that of his own volition. The other partners had to agree to it. That’s why the loan involved an amendment to the partnership agreement.
Replying, again:
*WTM handled this one.
*You can make a case for Matzek over Sanchez, but it’s not a slam dunk. Matzek has good tools, but the performance this year has been kind of shaky, including 6.2 BB/9 (as of today). A lot of people like Purke – I’m not particularly high on him. If I were going to take a high school arm from the year we drafted Sanchez, I would’ve gone with Shelby Miller (who was my recommendation at the time). That said, Sanchez’s performance thus far has been very strong, and it’s tough to be too upset about the pick at this point.
*That’s the really sad part – the team didn’t “get played” by Plummer. He botched the negotiations, and ended up getting a smaller bonus than he would have if he’d kept his word to us in the first place.
Also, did you know that “drinking the Kool-Aid” is actually kind of a misnomer? It’s a reference to the Jonestown mass suicide (and the cult of personality around Jim Jones), but the cultists didn’t actually drink Kool-Aid. They used Flavor Aid, a totally different beverage, instead.
The more you know!
The Nutting’s could have cut a check rather than give the best young player on the team away for nothing.
Certainly not clear that the Nuttings were the ones in charge… I wasn’t following the Pirates too closely then, so my view on this is somewhat shaky… others might be able to clear this up better…
Draft of Moskos over Wieters. The Morris acquisition was cover for the blow up among the fans that this caused.
Ridiculous- it was an incompetent GM tht picked Moskos in a pick that had nothing to do with Nutting… Morris was pickup of said GM too… if anything, Nutting’s part in this was trusting his GM, and then firing him because of those…
Drafting Tony Sanchez for slot instead of Purke or Matzek
This is so much blatant ignorance. Or twisting of facts. I don’t know which. Since the draft, many of the better known analysts have come forward with good reviews of Sanchez acknowledging that he was far better than their initial estimates…
Purke was certainly not a consensus No 4 at that point… nor was Matzek clearly No 4… the Pirates also spent plenty on the draft and their strategy was one of the better ones in recent years given that draft class!
If they had taken Matzek, you d have been the first to point out that he is walking 6 per 9IP in the minors!
Failure to sign Sano due to initial low ball attempts
Not competitively courting Chapman
Not paying Perry Hill even though you were planning on converting a catcher into your opening day first baseman.
Hiring a little league coach to be the minor league infield coordinator
Hiring a GM who was demoted at his last post.
Hiring Coonelly to stay in Selig’s good graces
Current major league coaching staff has one member that might be employed elsewhere in the majors.
Is that enough?
reply fail- here's the rest
Failure to sign Sano due to initial low ball attempts
No one bids higher on something than they need to… it was understandable from a business point of view, although it does count as an error on the part of the NH FO. Not sure how this relates to a “lack of desire to win”, since it’s very clear that the Pirates made very strong efforts, and too strong, as it turned out.
Not competitively courting Chapman
Paying Chapman what he got would have been stupid. The only person it might have pleased would have been you, and probably not…
Not paying Perry Hill even though you were planning on converting a catcher into your opening day first baseman.
Clement was perfectly fine in the field. The case for Perry Hill has nothing to do with Clement, although I’d have liked to see Hill retained. We still don’t have the full story on this though…
Hiring a little league coach to be the minor league infield coordinator
Please spare me the crap and look up the people, at least.
Hiring a GM who was demoted at his last post.
Unless I m mistaken, Huntington asked to go out in the field.
Hiring Coonelly to stay in Selig’s good graces
and promptly having him annihilate all rules about signing bonuses… evil genius, Nutting!
Current major league coaching staff has one member that might be employed elsewhere in the majors.
Actually, I have no doubt that all of McDonald, Ohlendorf, Maholm and Duke would be employed. Likely Karstens too, but in any case, this is a weakness that they’ve tried to address already. Hence you have the AA rotation. FA starter acquisitions like the Brewers’ would have resulted in results like the Brewers’.
Is that enough?
Clearly none of your points are very relevant to Nutting’s lack of desire to win, so no.
Let’s also remember a few other points:
The Nuttings DID cut the team a check to help the team cover its expenses, which it was unable to do because of McClatchy’s mismanagement. And no, the Nuttings were not running things then. They did not have a majority of the shares and did not control the board.
Dejan wrote repeatedly that DL wanted Moskos and that Nutting did not refuse to pay for Wieters.
Hill was already under contract. He didn’t leave due to the money, which is another Dejan has reported on repeatedly. And the converted catcher has been just fine at first without Hill. It’s his hitting that hasn’t any good.
when
did McDonald, Maholm, Ohlendorf, Duke and Karstens join the coaching staff?
Chapman....
Ummmmm, so you wanted the Pirates to pay $30 million for a 21-year-old guy who hits triple digits but is seen to have some control issues and is rough around the edges???
Good news!!!! The Pirates just got that.
His name is Stetson Allie. He’s a few years younger and only cost about $27.5 million less.
ah my bad on that...
i didnt read that too carefully… with all the inane points that came up before that, can you blame me?
by BurgherKing on Aug 25, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Not going to address all of those things..
Vlad and Burgher did a pretty good job of that, but just to add…
Purke turned down 4 million to play in his home state, far from a guarantee we would have been able to sign him, even if we met his demands.
I read an article earlier this summer that Purke got a mixed reception among Rangers fans when his name was called out in a pre-game thing celebrating TCU’s season. Just found that interesting.
Can’t blame the Rangers fans, with the season they’re having, unless Purke falls off a cliff next season, they won’t come anywhere near him in the draft.
According to the rest of the country...
we’re missing the point on the financial info. The real story is about “flaws in the league’s revenue-sharing program”.
Ron Cook is not a bright man
It doesn’t matter if he isn’t willing or can’t afford to properly fund the Pirates on the major league level. Either way, they’re still underfunded.
Whether he isn’t willing or can’t afford to fund the team absolutely matters. In many ways, it’s the most important question. Because if Bob Nutting can’t afford to fund the Pirates on a major-league level, then it’s very unlikely that anyone else could, either. If what the Pirates have is a revenue base of ~$70M per year, how would getting a new owner change anything?
Time will be the judge
Hopefully the FO will be vindicated. I just want the Pirates to win.
Cook
What I think is laughable is that from the time McClatchy took over to the time Nutting took over, almost no one at the P-G or other media said a peep about how bad ownership was. In retrospect, the KM regime is what really drove this team into the ground (even though he deserves some credit for getting PNC Park built) but it seems the local media had delayed their reaction (intentionally? could be given their negative view of Nutting due to his businesses == newspapers) and now turned their guns on Nutting, who — as stated above — has done a lot of good (and new) things for the Pirates since he took over while not making very many mistakes.
Exactly.....
Isn’t it amazing how the criticism of the Pirates ownership didn’t occur while the Post-Gazette had an ownership stake in the team? Now that they are no longer part-owners AND a newspaper guy is the head owner SUDDENLY the P-G starts dumping on the Pirates and their ownership…..right down to an Open Letter from the uninformed editorial board of the PG. At least there’s no conflicts that I can see…haha!!!!
To be fair
McClatchy was in the newspaper business as well. So I don’t think it’s the business itself. Many of the attacks on Nutting actually seem very personal. Perhaps a lot of people at the Post Gazette were once fired by Nutting?
McClatchy.....
McClatchy’s newspaper business didn’t own any newspapers that were even close in proximity to the Pittsburgh area that the P-G covers (until they purchased Knight Ridder in 2006). Meanwhile, the Nuttings own 20 daily newspapers in West Virginia, Pennsylvania & Ohio alone, including many which overlap the areas that the P-G competes for readership.
I think that makes a big difference.
In fairness
I remember a number of anti-McClatchy pieces, but they were not as personal or virulent.
I’ve had the same impression for a long time and have been curious about it. There’s much more vitriol aimed at Nutting, which is saying something because McClatchy wasn’t exactly highly respected toward the end. Nutting also seems to inspire a lot of stalker types, like NutHo, or elaborate conspiracy theories (there was some amazing stuff at onlybucs at one point), which I don’t remember while McClatchy was around.
If I remember correctly...
and correct me if I am wrong. The Ramirez trade was due to the fact the Buccos were carrying X% more debt than MLB allowed and they were forced to slash spending by MLB to bring the debt down.
So on that point alone it wasn’t so much of just throwing more money at the problem. (i.e. Nutting writing a check)
The problem was they spent their resources like a bunch of fools to begin with and got in over their heads.
Charlie Morton
I HOPE JR STARTS CHARLIE ON 3 days rest the remainder of the season. He needs the work, and the whipping, spanking, bombing, crushed, thumping. Good OLD FASHION ASHE KICKING!!!!!!!! At least he is consistently HORRIBLE, ROTTEN, AWFUL, TERRIBLE, OUTRAGEOUS, UNBELIEVABLY BAD!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bucs Dugout
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Photo: Padres fan regrets letting mother capture moment with Trevor Hoffman
- Marlins agree to unretire No. 5 for Logan Morrison, who will honor his father’s favorite player
- Weatherman Derek Holland does Dallas TV
- Ask Alex: Will Julio Teheran or Matt Moore win rookie of the year?
- Ku Klux Klan, umpires and bowling: Why the minor leagues tossed out Jim Evans academy
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
