Preparing For The Roster Crunch
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 4, 2010 1:30 AM EDT
Email
PrintIt was great that the Pirates finally won last night, but the most striking thing about the game was the beaning Andrew McCutchen took. It's never fun to see your team's star player lying on the ground with his eyes closed after appearing to be hit in the head. For the first couple minutes, I couldn't even tell if he was conscious. Fortunately, he's fine.
-P- Pirates Prospects (formerly BUCCO Fans) notes that the Pirates are going to face quite a roster crunch this offseason. They have a ton of players (Jeff Clement, Steve Pearce, James McDonald, Delwyn Young, John Bowker, Charlie Morton, Kevin Hart, Sean Gallagher, Jose Ascanio) who are unproven and are out of options, and yet are interesting in one way or another. Then there are a bunch of prospects the Pirates could lose in the Rule 5 draft if they don't protect, including Starling Marte, Nathan Adcock, Jeff Locke, Rudy Owens, Alex Presley, Diego Moreno and Danny Moskos.
Bowker recently said that Neal Huntington told him the Pirates didn't yet have a plan for Bowker, and looking ahead, you can see that Huntington wasn't kidding. He probably was just surprised to be offered so much for Javier Lopez and took the deal before worrying about what he would do with what he got. Bowker, in particular, plays first base and outfield. The Pirates already have three pretty good outfielders in McCutchen, Jose Tabata and Lastings Milledge, and they have Ryan Doumit ready to take some starts there as well. Also, they have Alex Presley charging through the minors. At first, Jones could use a platoon partner, but both he and Bowker are lefties, so Bowker can't help there. On top of that, they have Doumit again, plus Clement and Pearce who, like Bowker, will be out of options next year. Anyone care to explain to me how, barring about 18 injuries, Bowker ever finds more than a handful of at bats with the Pirates?
It looks to me like Pearce probably won't be a Pirate come mid-April, and Clement, Bowker and/or Doumit might not be either. It also looks like our offseason will be dominated by these sorts of questions, and the Pirates could end up losing a player or two in the Rule 5 draft. This sort of depth is great to have, but the question now will be deciding who's important. With many starting spots at the major league level now more or less set, that won't be easy.
171 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Pearce has one advantage as a bench player.
That would be to PH and spot start against LHP. His career OPS is over .900 vs LHP in both the minors and majors. One assumes that Tabata and Cutch will be 2 of the 3 OF starters. Other than Milledge…there are no other capable RH hitters for the bench. Jones, Bowker, Clement, Moss, Doumit and Young all have OPS below .710 vs LHP.
Career ML OPS vs LHP
Pearce .929
Milledge .788
Bowker .231 (in 49 PA)
Clement .705
Moss .709
Jones .646
Doumit .708
Unless the Pirates sign a RH bat over the winter…I’m not so sure that Pearce is done yet.
i agree with this
Pearce and Milledge have their right handedness going for them, and I have tp feel that both Moss and Clement would be below Bowker on the depth charts.
All RHB regress...
…toward a 1.09 ratio of their OPS vs. LHP to their OPS vs. RHP. As such, Pearce’s L/R splits don’t carry any real predictive value.
Keeping Pearce around as a platoon guy is a good idea regardless, though.
Doumit in 2011 = Church 2.0
NH just needs to get whatever for Doumit this offseason so JR isn’t tempted to work him into the lineup every other day.
Otherwise, I think Bowker and Milledge could make for a decent platoon in RF, with Bowker spelling Jones occassionaly at 1B (Okay, that last part will never happen).
Why would it be a bad thing...
…to work Doumit’s bat into the lineup? He’s got a career 104 OPS+, and a 100 this year. That’s perfectly solid bench production – basically a typical Xavier Nady season.
It wouldn't make sense salary-wise, though....
You don’t have a guy making 6.5 million (or whatever it is) sitting on the bench, taking up 1/6th of your payroll. If he is staying, which I doubt, then the only value he would bring close to what we are paying him is a platoon in RF with Lastings.
Paying Doumit to be a PH or a one-day-a-week starter does not make any business sense whatsoever…..and therefore most likely won’t be done. I see him being traded….and our return will be less than fulfilling, all because of him being without a position and without enough of a bat to DH.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 4, 2010 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Why not pay him $6.5M?
His bat’s worth that much on the open market, none of the internal alternatives are obviously more deserving of the playing time, and he’d be a much better insurance policy against a return of Snyder’s back problems than either Kratz or Jaramillo would.
Better to hold him, let him rebuild trade value by playing a few days a week at different positions, and then flip him for value at the deadline.
I agree, I just don't trust JR.
I think Doumit could be a good bench bat with some positional flexibility (though similar to DY, he doesn’t bring much defensive value to any of those positions). And the fact that he would take up 1/6 of the payroll is b/c our payroll is small, not b/c he would be grossly overpaid.
I just fear that he would end up in the lineup four days a week at the expense of better options a la Ryan Church. I would much rather we use the rest of this season to build up his value as much as possible, and flip him im the offseason, than have him take up a roster spot next season.
I don't even know that four days a week would be a problem.
As long as they’re using him starting those four games as a way of resting four different everyday players, rather than just taking away half of Milledge’s PT or something like that.
Do you think position hopping could have an adverse affect on his hitting, thus negating the assumed boost he would get from getting out from behind the plate?
I don't know
My sense is that he’s (reasonably) comfortable in RF. Mentally catching shouldn’t be a strain. And if he can learn to play 1B, it’s a famously easy position.
Point being, if he’s hopping among 3 comfortable (for him) positions, then it shouldn’t be so much of an issue. NH said to Rocco the other night that the physical wear of catching is Doumit’s main offensive problem; position-hopping (with days off) wouldn’t be physically wearing at all.
One thing that worries me is that I suspect they’d carry a 3rd catcher, who would never get playing time and who’d waste a roster spot. But I think that it would be considered pretty risky to have your backup C in the field unless you have a 3rd. I had hoped that Clement would stick and be able to be an emergency C, but that seems remote, and there’s no one else who could do it even for 2-3 innings.
That particular line of old-school baseball thinking, by the way, always bothers me (no offense to you, JRoth, for bringing up a legit issue . . .). But there’s some managers out there that think you need a true “backup” catcher that does NOTHING besides wait for injuries and catch on Sundays. I wonder how many times in the history of baseball have two catchers been injured in the same game? It seems like a really rare occurance to worry about, whereas having an extra bench bat could help you almost every night.
No, I agree completely
That’s actually why I put value on having an emergency guy on the roster, so that you don’t have to be such a freak about using your backup C as a PH in the 8th inning.
You’re probably right about Walker, but I bet they wouldn’t plan that way (and, to be clear, if they did, I think they should have him catch some innings in ST, just to clear the cobwebs).
Having to eat a 3rd catcher on the roster...
…is less of an issue if the 3rd catcher can hit, giving him at least nominal value as a late-inning PH.
I’d be more willing to go with Kratz than Jaramillo, for instance, for that reason.
I don't mind
keeping his bat on the bench, but what’s his attitude going to be about being relegated?
He’s already kind of pissy as it is…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 4, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
…and don’t use the “Well, he’s gonna be getting paid, so suck it up” bit. We all know that doesn’t work with pouty boys.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 4, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Whenever he starts pouting...
…give him a bottle of good Scotch. And repeat as necessary.
Kept Paul Waner happy enough.
One possible reason is the salary he's making..
If we can find a team to basically take that off of our hands in the off-season, that’s one extra spot to really find out what we have with guys a little less younger than Doumit, all the while shedding some money that can be used if we find a good deal on a SP.
Payroll...
…isn’t what’s holding us back from getting a SP. So if we’re inclined to go buy one, we don’t need to move Doumit in order to make it happen.
I don't know about that
The other day we were throwing around $12M as a number for a FA SP, and finding the options wanting. What could we get for $18M?
I'm not positive about that..
If a guy like De la Rosa or Vazquez is worth $15-16 million, you don’t think he’d sign with us for 18?
Not all guys care about recent history. I’m not advocating spending that amount of money on one of them, or any pitcher at this time, only that if we were to pay 2-3 million over market value, I’m not sure Pittsburgh would be shunned.
De la Rosa isn't worth $16M, so that part's a moot point.
And no, I don’t think Vazquez would sign with us rather than a contender for $2M extra. More likely he’d try and use our bid to leverage up his other offer.
We aren’t going to be able to make those type of FA pulls until we’re actually contending.
Yep.
We aren’t going to be able to attract the Cliff Lees of the world on the FA market, not even if our offer’s competitive. I mean, look at Baltimore chasing Teixeira. He was a hometown kid, and they had the highest offer on the board, and they’re a lot larger market than we are… and he still ended up with the Yankees.
Every kid..
Dreams of putting on the pinstripes. I’m a lifelong Pirates fan, never considered rooting for the Yankees or any other team, but if you ask me what team I’d most want to play for? It’s a really tough choice between the Yankees and Pirates.
My only point being the allure of Yankees history probably swayed Tex. As long as we’re not bidding against the Yankees or a hometown team, I don’t see a ton of guys leaving 2-3 million on the table.
It's not just the Yankees.
In recent years, we’ve seen much lower-tier FAs than the ones you’re discussing take less money than we were offering to sign with teams like the Reds and Nats. I mean, we got turned down by Paul Bako. And now we’re supposed to be able to pull front-of-the-rotation starters?
That's honestly surprising to me
I’m not familiar with Bako’s situation, or who these other FA’s you might be talking about are.
It’s just really surprising to me multiple players would leave considerable money on the table to not play in Pittsburgh. Equal money or slightly yes? Of course you avoid this team like the plague. I’ll take your word for it, it’s just a bit shocking to me that even if we foolishly wanted to over-spend on a guy, we wouldn’t be able to get him.
We offered Bako a contract prior to '08...
…and he took less money to play for the Reds instead. Same with Daniel Cabrera with the Nats, and Bill Mueller and Will Ohman with the Dodgers, and Rocco Baldelli with the Red Sox (he took a bench role when we offered him a possible starting job, to boot), and Luis Vizcaino and the Rockies.
There are probably others that I’m forgetting, too, but those are a good start.
Tex's wife didn't want to live in SoCal
She’d rather live in New York and prodded Tex in that direction. Or so the legend goes…
by QuinnTheEzkamo on Aug 4, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
easy for me
Of the players on the 40 man, I d leave the following off pretty easy:
Burres, Jackson, Veal, one of Jaramillo/Kratz (if Doumit isnt traded), Argenis Diaz… that’s 5 spots…
Veal will be on the 40-man....
Even if he is not a starter, he will be retained because of his LHP and his considerable talent.
Not keeping him would be a huge mistake, in my eyes.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 4, 2010 6:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Diaz should be the easiest cut on the board.
If they open next season with him on the 25-man, I’m going to shoot somebody.
If the only objective is having a better UT IF than Diaz...
…then it almost doesn’t matter who they pick.
I would take either of those guys over Diaz. But it’s also possible that a better option than either of them will present itself over the next few months.
I’d like to see LaRoche and/or Walker play some SS over the winter and in spring training to see if they could fill in if needed much like Cairo did last night for the Reds. Of course that implies that Cedeno plays a lot of innings but that might still be our best option.
Agreed
And my suggestion about LaRoche below would go by the boards. I have no special reason to want him moved, I just think he’s a spare part (with some trade value) right now. I suppose he’s insurance against Walker cratering, but it’s not exactly the soundest insurance plan….
The problem with moving LaRoche in a deal...
…is that right now, he’s the only backup at 3B (unless you move a guy like Diaz from short, which seems like a terrible idea, or give the starts to Young, which seems even worse). So if you move him, you need to pick up a new 3B backup, and then you’re back where you started roster-wise.
Which shouldn’t get in the way of a deal if there’s one they like, of course. But it does make him a problematic target for roster consolidation.
Walker
Assuming we have a solid (better than DY) backup for 2B, then Walker can play 3B indefinitely. I don’t love bouncing him around just to give Pedro a day off, but it’s hardly the end of the world.
What can Ciriano play?
He's a true SS.
Probably a better fielder right now than Diaz, and definitely a better hitter. Though still probably not starting-caliber at either.
If we get a 2B backup, then yes, Walker could be the backup at 3B. Though of course, then we’re using LaRoche’s roster spot on a 2B backup, and not really saving any room again.
This is the problem
With a bench full of 1B/RFs. It’s also the problem with needing separate bench guys for SS and 2B/3B.
If we have a bench guy who can play SS & 2B, then, between Cedeno, Walker, Pedro, and Mr. Bench, we’ve got a backup for every position. Plus, if we were to keep DY, you’ve got an emergency (as in, in-game injury) player for 2B/3B. That would be good enough for me.
Arguably you keep Andy over DY, but part of my reason for moving Andy is that I think you can get value for him, and he doesn’t provide us with much value (partly because there’s no evidence that he can hit from the bench, partly because his value is as a UT, and, with young guys at 2B and 3B, he wouldn’t even get a start a week). DY I think would just be a release or a PTBNL
I think it's a bad idea...
…to go with a roster that doesn’t include two infield backups. But to each his own, I guess.
A lot depends
On who’s in Indy. If you’ve got someone decent who can come up immediately, then I don’t worry so much – the odds are so slender that 2 guys get injured in a single game (and, as I said, DY qualifies as an emergency fill-in at 2 of the 3 positions, so the only absolute disaster is both Cedeno and Ciriano going down, and most teams don’t have 3 guys at SS anyway).
If there’s no one at Indy that you want to see starting 6 games during a 15 day DL stint, then you should have 2 ML-grade backup IFs.
It's not so much about 2 guys getting hurt in one game...
…as it is about chaining the one UT IF to the bench out of fear that if you use him as a PH/PR/defensive replacement early in a game, you could get stuck with an injury and no bench IFs in the later innings. Kind of like the catcher problem we discussed above.
Also, the offensive dropoff from Pedro to a glove-first UT IF would be enormous.
The dropoff
from Pedro to anybody would be enormous.
I mean point taken, but c’mon – the guy’s bat is irreplaceable, regardless of who’s on the bench.
Meanwhile, I don’t have a big problem with a glove-first UT being chained to the bench, do you? That’s why we’re keeping all these damn 1B/RF guys, for their bats.
get rid of the junk
they have a lot of options but not a lot of GOOD options, I can’t see why any of clement, browker, doumit, jaramillo, and any of those pitchers deserve roster spots on the big league roster, all but browker have been pretty awful and at this point do not seem to represent an up grade over anyone on the current roster. And id rather see presley get a shot over all of them.
First thing is first tho, lock up all important players from the rule 5 draft.
Who is "Browker"?
Also, why are people in such a hurry to dump Doumit? He’s a career .270/.332/.441 hitter – better than the untouchable Jones’s 2010 line.
I agree RE Doumit.
It’s a mystery to me why everyone wants to run him out of town. Even if his D is at bad as it seems, the bat plays very well.
It must be because he doesn’t smile enough.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Where does his bat play?
If you are going to play him in RF, then you are going to be sitting Milledge against RHP, which, means you are going to be sitting him an awful lot.
If you play him at 1B, where he is awful, then his bat hardly plays; he would below average, giving you the same ‘Vlad-Jones comparison’.
If you are going to have him catch, which he is awful at, then you are going to be paying either him or Snyder a lot of money to be on the bench.
Doumit will be traded….
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 4, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Doumit as a DH
He is well below average defensively behind the plate. Would be learning 1B from scratch and is average at best in the OF. If, and that’s a BIG if, an American League team were interested in his bat it would be the best place for him.
Nobody pays good money...
…for a DH who isn’t putting up a star-level OPS. It’s the easiest job in the majors to fill.
Nobody is going to want Doumit as a DH, unless they’re a stupid and directionless organization like the Royals. He has much better value as a C, 1B, and/or OF.
That's actually not true
Lots of teams have shockingly bad DHs who earn plenty of money. In fact, there are only 7 qualifying DHs in the AL. 4 of them have wOBAs below .335, and 3 of them equal to or less than Doumit’s (and I think we all agree that Doumit’s hitting will improve at least somewhat once he’s out from behind the plate). Two of those guys are making small dollars, but the others – Ortiz, Damon, Matsui, etc. – are making a hell of a lot more than Doumit.
I’m not actually saying that Doumit’s an attractive DH candidate – not until he proves that his bat improves when he’s not catching – but I’m saying that your characterization of DHs, while logical, isn’t factual.
Yes, but those bad DHs who make lots of money...
…are generally veteran FAs whom those teams signed to long-term contracts to play another position (or signed to DH when they were elite bats, like Hafner/Ortiz), and are now hiding at DH because they’ve declined to the point that they can’t field anymore. The teams didn’t go out and spend big $ on a mediocre offensive player with the intention of making him a DH.
Further
As evidence by the fact that half the AL doesn’t play its DHs enough to qualify for the batting title*, the modern trend has been to treat DH primarily as a place to rest aging sluggers – so you get, e.g., the Yankees splitting DH among Matsui, Posada, and Giambi. And Doumit, as a guy who can plausibly start 4 games a week in the field (2 of them at a challenging/valuable position), adds a lot of value to a team with a 2008 Matsui type (or maybe a 2007 Griffey type).
Point being, I agree that a team would be crazy to pay $6M to run a (best case) .350 wOBA guy out there as their everyday DH, it wouldn’t be crazy to view him as half a DH platoon (not nec. a strict lefty/righty platoon) and also a decent player in the field.
- and that most of the guys who do qualify have at least a handful of starts in the field
Give him...
…a start a week behind the plate, a start a week at first base, and a start a week in an outfield corner. Maybe one extra start per week at one of those positions as well, depending on who needs rest.
That’s like 300-400 AB per year, without stealing anybody’s job. And how much more than that can we expect from a guy with his medical history anyway?
This actually makes a decent amount of sense to me..
Ryan Church stole 183 plate appearnaces from guys who would have been much better served getting those at-bats.
If Ryan took 100 at bats away from the RF, 100 at-bats away from 1B, and 100 or so to keep Snyder fresh, it might make everyone more productive.
Why would you ever start him at 1B?
He is much worse at 1B than Delwyn Young is at 2B. He might be worse than DY at 3B. In RF he is at least respectable with the glove and a plus with his arm, albeit a minus with his speed.
But putting him at 1B while you have other, healthy options is just playing him because he’s on the roster, not because he’s adding to your win percentage.
He doesn't have much 1B experience.
And could potentially become better with more reps.
In RF, he’s more likely to injure himself.
It's worth running him out there in ST
But I really don’t want him at 1B, without a lot of reps, just for the sake of getting him PAs. If he’s going to become a non-negative at 1B, it’ll be from extensive practice, not 1 start a week there.
All of which would be fine for 2011; I’m mostly thinking about right now.
for that...
you pay him 5.6M for next year?
Well
We pay him that regardless, unless someone wants to trade something surprising for him. If we eat none of his salary, then his trade value (barring a monster Aug/Sep) is minimal; if we pay salary to improve the trade, then why not just play the guy (esp. since playing the guy has the likely outcome of improving his trade value)?
I have no issue with Doumit being traded if it is for value.
My response is more in regard to the people running him out of town at all costs, even advocating his release. His defense at catcher and OF is sufficient enough to spot start, and perhaps he can become passable at 1B. Further, his bat is an asset off the bench. His contract isn’t to so onerous that we can’t keep him even if he isn’t worth we we are actually paying him.
He’s not a sunk cost. Most likely the Bucs won’t get the value they are paying him, but that doesn’t mean he does not have value and, as such, a straight out release or a trade for de minimus return is ridiculous.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
by Scranton on Aug 4, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with this as well
I want to see him traded, but I don’t think he should be given away, and a release is crazy.
The main reason I’d prefer to see him gone is his roster spot – he’s at best a wash for us, and he’ll cost us someone who could be more than that.
I think
A Jones/Milledge/Pearce/Bowker combo makes the most sense at 1B/RF. Trade Doumit for whatever and cut ties with Clement.
ascanio - extra option year due to injury?
like we got for (and I hate to even type the name) Ryan Vogelsong? Possible?
Move Doumit for sure
At this point Neal has shown he can handle the “Salary Dump” cat calls he’ll get, even though this would be exactly that. He’s blocking guys who can match his production at at least 1/5th of the price and need to “SOFOTP.” If we could get a decent reliever, (preferred over a 34534th “3rd starter potential with command issues type”) I’d be happy, but they really just need to unload him. Much like the way the Ray’s unloaded Aki on us for Chavez or how the Braces unloaded Soriano’s contract on the Rays. And yes I know Soriano was better and Chavez wasnt a “decent” reliever but it’s too early for me to find an exact parallel
I think If Milledge cant show any power this year it may be time to sell high on him as a 4th outfielder, possibly in a package with Doumit, Jones or one of our AAA 1B/ OF guys
RIP NATE. RIP TONY PLUSH.
"I'D BE A CHEF"
-TONY PLUSH
A lot is still to be decided in spring training,
but I think this is a likely roster for opening day next year:
LF Tabata
2B Walker
CF McCutchen
3B Alvarez
1B Jones
RF Milledge
C Snyder
SS Cedeno
Bench: Kratz, Jaramillo, LaRoche, Young, and one of Pearce/Clement/Bowker/Presley/Moss.
Rotation: Maholm, Ohlendorf, Duke, Lincoln, Karstens/FA
Bullpen: Hanrahan, Meek, Gallagher, FA, FA, FA, FA
Maybe Moskos makes the bullpen. Pearce and Bowker would figure to have the edge for the last bench spot since they’re both first basemen and outfielders.
Typo
Forgive my mistake on putting both Jaramillo and Kratz on the bench. One of them won’t make it, and one more of the five guys I bolded will.
by Suffering Buc on Aug 4, 2010 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Kratz, Jaramillo
I wouldn’t be shocked if neither of them made it. I suspect we release Doumit or we are stuck with them.
Releasing Doumit...
…would be crazy. We’d be paying good money for a solid player to play for someone else, in order to create a roster spot for Jaramillo? How does that even start to make sense?
Vlad
I’m not advocating it. I’m saying it’s a possibility.
If Doumit can’t catch because of his repeated concussions, his value as a backup outfielder is limited.
Moreover, if he pouts that he’s now a backup, the team may decide he’s not worth it.
His trade value is negative. They aren’t moving that contract without paying it.
As far as making sense, let’s say he puts up Church numbers next year. You don’t keep him around simply because of the contract. See Matt Morris as an example.
Again, I think it’s highly unlikely. But if I were forced to keep him for one year versus protecting a prospect, I might just bite the bullet depending on his second-half production.
It’s curious that you don’t have MacDonald in either your rotation or bullpen. Oversight, or no expectations of competency?
Additionally, you don’t show Charlie Morton anywhere. Does Morton have anything left to prove in AAA or should the Pirates just plug him into the rotation and let him sink or swim for three months, then cut bait if he performs like this year?
Lastly, you have Delwyn Young on the bench for next year, but should the Pirates keep him around just for his ability to pinch-hit with extremely-limited defensive capabilities or should they let Brandon Moss or Steve Pearce fill that slot because those guys can actually play the field? They have nothing left to prove at AAA, so it’s not like they’re hot prospects whose development will be retarded by sitting on the bench; they may be career bench guys at this point, but at least they can offer multi-dimensional skillsets instead of Delwyn’s occasional pinch hit surrounded by a ton of K’s.
Not trying to be argumentative; just some thoughts. Thanks.
DY ...
is gone. He’s a nice pinch hitter. But when you are as bad as the PIrates, he is a luxury. You don’t lose a prospect, or even an older “interesting” guy for him.
The only thing that holds me back from agreeing...
…is the fact that he wasn’t traded at the deadline, despite a lot of smoke being blown around over how he was such a good bench bat and pinch hitter and how well he’d fit on the bench of a contender and all that.
Of course, it’s possible that it was our front office blowing the smoke.
Well, what's he get in arbitration?
I have no sense for guy like him. His defense is bad enough that even stupid arbitrators should recognize that his only value is as a 100 PA/season PH. So is that worth $1M? $2M?
Roster spot aside, I’d keep him for $1.5M or under. Above that, and with the roster situation, he’s not worth it.
On the above roster we don't have a backup SS
get rid of DY, he’s not worth more than the minimum, replace him with Diaz or someone similar and give his AB’s to Pearce/Bowker/LaRoche. If you want to keep DY around, just release him and bring up Jim Negrych to make the minimum for 3 years.
McDonald, I just forgot to list. That’s the whole new acquisition thing. I’m sure he’ll be in either the rotation or the pen. Morton, though, I left off intentionally. His mind is too fragile for him to make it. It would be one thing if he was 22 or 23, but he’s not. He’s been around a while, and now is too late in the game for him to abjectly fail, which he did.
Young gives a lot of good ABs. I’d be surprised if the Pirates didn’t keep him on. He has a little pop and can play three positions (albeit none of them well). He’s not going to make much more than the minimum in arbitration.
by Suffering Buc on Aug 4, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
"now is too late in the game for him to abjectly fail"
I don’t think this is necessarily true. I mean, Roy Halladay totally collapsed in his third season in the bigs: a 10.64 ERA and 2.20 WHIP in 19 games (13 starts) for the Blue Jays. They had him work with a sports psychologist, sent him all the way down to the FSL to build back his confidence, and he was blowing guys away again by the middle of the next season.
Flash forward to 2013
Charlie Morton wins the Cy Young
22-7, 3.25 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, 6.38/1 K/BB
9 Complete games.
You heard it here first folks.
pathetic
That’s a 90+ loss team at best. We’re posting on this board about which AAAA players the Pirates are most afraid to lose. Le’s not fool ourselves, this is not an embarrassment of riches. These players are easily found, would anyone notice if LaRoche just walked away from baseball tomorrow? The Giants are desperate for offense and had no qualms about throwing Bowker into the deal. Before you jump on Sabean he has a much better track record as a GM than Neal.Let’s break it down:
Pearce: intriguing, but never given a real shot here, and there is no indication he ever will
Clement: Quad A player
Bowker: Giants version of Pearce
Presley: Slow down, a good year but only one thus far
Moss: Really? last year proved to me that he is nothing more than org filler
Young: Good bench guy, would have loved to have him 18-20 years ago when we were wayching Curtis Wilkerson pinch hit in the LCS
Sure, I'd notice if LaRoche walked away tomorrow.
Before his back started acting up, he was killing the ball this spring.
And Sabean’s such a smooth trader that he gave up Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano, and Boof Bonser for one year of A.J. Pierzynski, during which Pierzynski (displaying his usual charm) got suspended for kicking the team trainer in the junk on the field during a game.
Bowker as the Giants version of Pearce is a reasonable comparison. I’m confused, though, as to why you seem to think that’s an indictment of him, rather than an endorsement.
to be accurate
We could say the Giants gave up Nathan and Liriano as I don’t think anyone is lamenting the loss of Boof Bonser. I think the Pearce comparison is an indictment in that he has had a few chances, but never given the org a reason to give him a long term shot. The guy is 27, and we have to realize that for some (most) guys, it just doesn’t happen. Especially when the org seems to not believe you have what it takes. Neil Walker is the exception, not the rule. Although I am crossing my fingers and hoping Walker isn’t Warren morris v2.0.
If we want to talk about bad trades, Jose Bautista for nothing. Jason Bay for nothing, Adam LaRoche for nothing, giving up anything for Aki, Todd Redmond for nothing, Torres for nothing, Gorzo and Grabow for nothing. When I state nothing I am being somewhat facetious but out of the trades I mentioned there is 1 possible impact player acquired by the Pirates (Morris) who is AA pitcher and by no means a sure thing.
Bonser spent two and a half seasons in the Twins' rotation.
He didn’t end up as a great pitcher, but he was well-regarded at the time of the trade (former first-round pick), and he did provide them with some measure of value in 2006 and 2007.
“When I state nothing I am being somewhat facetious”
No kidding. You’re actually mentioning Todd Redmond (who has never pitched in the majors, and likely will never pitch in the majors) as a significant loss for us? And of course, you’re assuming that guys like LaRoche and Moss and Hart and Ascanio will provide no additional value henceforth and forever, which may or may not be true.
would you
rather have Redmond or Yates right now? The point is that Yates was useless when we acquired him, and the trade never should have been made. What indication is there that Moss or LaRoche will provide any value at all ever? Ascanio is a maybe. Hart was horrible before the injury, and I doubt he becomes anything. The point remains that the current regime has not acquired the type of impact talent thatis needed to turn this thing around. That’s why we are discussing which mediocre AAAA talen the Pirate’s should protect next year.
Neither one...
…has any real value at this point. I wouldn’t have made the trade, but it wasn’t particularly significant either way.
LaRoche was a significantly valuable player last year. As such, it’s hardly out of the question that he could deliver a similar performance in the future. Moss has done enough at AAA this year to suggest that he could be at least a useful OF backup (if not for us with our current roster, then for someone else). And Hart was horrible for us in the majors, but it’s again not a given that he wouldn’t perform better in short relief (assuming that he makes a full recovery from his surgery, which may or may not happen).
I don’t see more than a few of the players (such as Diaz) under discussion for spots on the 2011 roster as “mediocre AAAA talents”, and as such, I don’t think we’re discussing any such thing.
Since someone's probably going to ask...
…the Uviedo trade bothered me more than the Yates one because I think that Uviedo right now is a significantly better prospect than Redmond was at the time of the Yates trade. Remond didn’t have the stuff to make success in the majors seem likely, and the best argument in Redmond’s favor at the time he was traded (IMO) was that as an organization we had a crying need for even marginal SP talent.
seriously
You don’t see Pearce, Moss, Bowker, Hart, Kratz, Jaramillo, Karstens, Clement as boilerplate Quad A types? I’ll bet whatever you want that not one of them go on to spend 3 consecutive full seasons on a major league roster
Meh.
Kratz and Jaramillo are garden-variety backup catchers. Every team in baseball has one of those on their roster. Right now, we have two, because our starter (up until last week) was out. Hart is a ML-caliber pitcher (he was in the Cubs’ rotation, performing decently, before we traded him) who’s only marginal because he’s injured. Bowker and Pearce are perfectly acceptable corner bench bats. Karstens is a marginal guy on pure talent, but he’s performed well enough this year as an injury replacement that he doesn’t look out of place on the roster. And Moss isn’t currently on the roster (though they may re-add him at the end of the year, I guess). So that leaves us with one potential AAAA type in Clement.
By ML roster, do you mean 25-man, or 40-man? If it’s the latter, that seems like a bet you’re destined to lose.
25
Pearce and Bowker are adequate corner bats for a contending team? If it’s so, why do we have such a dire shortage of that commodity.
I'm ranting now
but c’mon, these players are easily replaceable, the fact that we are posting about them shows how bad off this team is, and how far it has to go to even reach .500
My lists for the Rule 5 Draft
Could be cut due to suckiness expendability, and may clear waivers anyway :
Burres, Jackson, Thomas, Jakubauskas, Diaz, Iwamura, Kratz, Ledezma, D.McCutchen, D.Young
Young should be the last one out, but his expected pay-raise may overshadow his skills.
Need to be protected (in that order) :
Marte, Locke, Moreno, Owens, Presley, Adcock
Particularly, Moreno has almost zero chance to get past the Rule 5 Draft as a hard-throwing, high strikeouts reliever.
Not that we should lose any sleep if we lose him, after all he’s nothing more that a potential bullpen guy (see : Uviedo, Ronald).
I agree, they may be usefull options next year. But I don’t see a team jumping on them if we cut them.
Ledezma was a minor league FA for a reason last year, as he should be this year. And NoRelation is nothing more than 5th-starter depth right now … with a career 6+ ERA in the Majors.
Owens doesn't need to be protected.
He was a draft-and-follow.
And you’re wrong about Uviedo, and about the value of minor league relievers in general. They don’t have the upside of a guy who could be a starter, but you ignore them wholesale at your peril.
You're relentlessly wrong.....
Where is Uviedo even at these days? Are the Yanks considering supplanting Rivera with him for the stretch run?
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 4, 2010 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Ah.....Uviedo
If only Vlad were a GM, he would have a roster spot.
And, again, where is he, Vlad? What is his status? (Serious question…)
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 4, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Pitchin' for the New Hampshire Fisher Cats at AA.
Came back from his injury time, and is apparently throwing pretty well (though he got tagged with a loss in extra-innings last night).
It’s not that I don’t like Uviedo or relief pitching prospects in general.
But when NH basically threw him away for Eveland, I think it says something on how our management handles them.
I also could have mentioned Belisario (IIRC, he was DFAed in 09 and now pitches for the Dodgers), not that I desagree with was happened then.
Part of my point is : we’re still building our team and there’s more significant holes to fill before we start thinking about protecting the Uviedos or the Morenos of the world.
I’m still not sold on the fact that Milledge is the answer in the outfield. Maybe if you had some more power in the lineup you could get away with him playing everyday. Otherwise, he is a 270 hitter with no power and average defense at best.
by Designated Hitter on Aug 4, 2010 8:30 AM EDT reply actions
Yeah
Milledge is a place holder until someone better comes along.
Marte maybe? Perhaps Hernandez improves?
Which roster?
I’m not so worried about the 25 man – that’s what ST is for, and at least a handful of interesting/necessary guys will clear waivers and come back to AAA for emergency use. But the 40 man worries the hell out of me, because we’re going to (I think) have to cut at least 1 or 2 still-interesting older guys in order to protect very interesting younger guys.
Scanning through, why the hell is Ramon Aguero on there? He’s old for his level and doesn’t appear ever to have been good; does he have “stuff”?
Actually, it occurs to me that the solution (aside from trading Doumit and LaRoche) is probably to cut basically all of the bullpen other than Meek and Hanrahan, protect the guys we need to, then rebuild the BP after the Rule 5.
Better yet...
Begin the bullpen rebuild through the Rule 5 draft…
Uh-oh.....
Another Uviedo. I hope we don’t trade him for some garbage like Dana Eveland – our organization could not take that.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 4, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn't Hart be a good bullpen option?
I think we have enough semi-interesting back of the rotation SP guys lurking around that we don’t really need to try and throw Hart into the mix.
Hanrahan, Meek, Hart, Ascaino, Gallagher at least seems interesting..
I think Hart eventually heads to the Pen, maybe next year....
And, I think he will be pretty good in that role as well.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 4, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I bet when you get change from the cashier...
…you immediately throw it on the ground, right? I mean, who needs it? It’s just a quarter!
I bet Tampa’s glad they took your advice, too, regarding Evan Meek. Relief prospects – who needs ’em?
Not RP prospects, Vlad....
Just Uviedo. You made him sound to be something he totally is not, as evidenced by us getting rid of him, his numbers with Toronto as a SP, and the fact that he cleared waivers. You like him….no one really else does.
Don’t equate my indifference to Uviedo as an indifference to all RP prospects….I do try, however, not to speak glowingly of someone that doesn’t deserve it.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 4, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
How did I "make him sound like something he totally is not"?
I backed everything up with verifiable facts, and showed where you could check if you didn’t believe me. And if I was the only one who liked him, then why did everyone else here flip the hell out when we burned him like that? Why was he noted as a prospect by people who do this for a living, like BA and John Sickels?
He’s having a down season. That doesn’t mean that he’s not a prospect, or that it wasn’t dumb to move him for waiver-bait like Eveland.
So what's he worth?
I mean, 97 is awesome. But 9 walks against 11 K in 13 IP, at age 25 in AA, is not encouraging. Even his good stretch with Bradenton was just 8:3 K:BB, which isn’t amazing for an older guy with 97 speed in high-A.
I’m not saying we should cut him, I’m just wondering if the value is really there. If he doesn’t improve in the next month, which players get cut loose to save his roster spot?
Given the roster pressures under which we're operating...
…I’m open to cutting him.
I just figured I’d volunteer the info about stuff, since was a question to that effect.
Also eligible for this year's Rule 5...
…and not mentioned yet: Kyle McPherson and Tony Watson.
McPherson’s probably safe, due to his distance from the majors (currently pitching at WV). But he’s done very well this year (3.97 ERA, 1.12 WHIP, more than a K an inning as a SP), and there’s a chance he could get picked if someone likes his arm.
Watson doesn’t have super stuff, but he’s been death on LHBs this year at Altoona (.135 BAA), and a team in need of a lefty reliever might take a shot at him.
I think
those are the guys you just suck it up and hope don’t get taken. I mean, if we trade away a couple pieces and gain a little breathing room on the 40-man, so be it, but I don’t think I’d cut, say, Gallagher or possibly DY just for a decent low-A SP. Especially since we have a lot of strong SPs in the low minors. If, in 2014, we’re bemoaning the absence of McPherson, then our club has a lot more trouble than a missed Rule V move in 2010.
What is the scouting report on McPherson?
I asked this in another thread due to Dejan saying that the Pirates and ‘other teams’ are higher on him than the ‘prospect-list-makers’ are. In other words, the Bucs like him.
Anyone have any info on his arsenal/strengths/weaknesses?
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 4, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Haven't seen him pitch.
The stuff I’ve read makes him sound like a pretty standard low-minors SP prospect: low 90s FB that he commands well, decent curve, and a change that’s a work in progress. But as to whether that’s accurate, I can’t say.
Place a claim on Dunn
We were talking about this last night in the game thread and oddly enough Tim at piratesprospects has a nice piece on why placing a claim on Adam Dunn might not be such a foolish idea.
Take a look, come back here, and discuss. It’s really not as crazy of an idea as it seems.
I dunno.
It seems really crazy. So it could be significantly less crazy than it seems, and still be pretty crazy.
Since this post has mainly been Doumit focused...
Would Ryan fit in Washington at all? Placeholder to Ramos.
Offer Doumit and a guy we might be dropping in the Rule 5 like Aguero (Again, assuming the gentlemen’s rule with Houston and ’Zona passing on Aguero) for Dunn.
The Nats get a decent player in Doumit, and an interesting bullpen prospect. The Pirates get Dunn in arbitration. If he accepts, we look alot better on paper for 2011. If he declines, we get two compensation picks for a guy who wasn’t going to play full-time anyways.
Just an idea, if anyone else has something they think would work (Crazy or not), this is the sort of stuff I love to hear.
I don't think the Nats would take that.
They’d be better off re-signing Dunn, and if they couldn’t, they’d probably rather just take the picks.
I think all that you’d accomplish by claiming Dunn on waivers would be to piss off the Nats, and possibly move them to claim our guys on waivers whenever we try to slip ’em through for other post-deadline deals.
The Nats would rather have the two draft picks....
Rightly, in my eyes.
Placing a claim on Dunn is as crazy as it sounds….
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 4, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
btw how does the 40 man work with respect to injuries?
Hart, Veal are not likely to pitch much next year anyway…
All guys need to be temporarily activated from the 60-day DL...
…and placed on the 40-man roster shortly before the Rule 5 deadline. So we’ll need to get down to 40 guys to cover for injured players on currently on the 60-day DL for at least some part of this offseason.
and suppose we dont
and some team takes them, then they need to keep them on the roster for a year, excluding the injury time on the DL, or including it?
No.
If you take a guy off the 60-day DL and don’t want him to immediately rejoin your 40-man, then you put him on waivers (or under some circumstances, DFA him), and if he gets claimed, it’s just like any other waiver claim. And even if he isn’t claimed, he might then have the right to take a walk as a minor league free agent, depending on (minor league) service time.
C – Doumit, Snyder
1B – Jones, Pearce
2B – Walker
SS – Cedeno, Ciriaco
3B – Alvarez, LaRoche
LF/RF – Tabata, Milledge, Bowker
CF – McCutchen
That’s 13 players, even without a 3rd catcher. Who in the above group wouldn’t make the cut if they carried a Kratz? Probably LaRoche or Pearce. I figure a backup shortstop is needed. LaRoche is killed by not playing much middle infield (especially shortstop) and hitting very weakly to this point.
So under this scenario:
Clement, Diaz, and Young hit the waiver wire?
If they keep a third catcher, it probably either pushes Pearce off the roster or comes at the expense of the 12th pitcher (I’d recommend the latter).
Young could take the Pearce or Bowker spot, which as long as he never plays the infield might be OK.
Clement could theoretically be better next year than a 30 yo declining Garrett Jones, but that’s a long shot and he won’t get the next two months to show it anyway.
11 pitchers would mean no more Gallagher/Ledezma experiments; bullpen would have to be solid like beginning of this season given the rotation.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 4, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't disagree with cutting any of those guys loose.
I think that the 40-man you suggest is about the best possible with the pieces on hand (assuming no further moves). I just wanted to make sure that the full consequences of that roster would be understood.
The bullpen is the wrong spot for Gallagher. It amplifies his weaknesses and neutralizes some of his strengths. He needs to be getting a starter’s innings, either in the majors or at AAA.
Agreed
I won’t shed a tear for Diaz or Clement, and I certainly think that if it comes down to a DFA, you’ve got to keep LaRoche over Young.
I’d have to say Clement should be in consideration if he keeps hitting pinch-hit bombs. Especially since Jones hasn’t exactly been Willie Stargell.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 4, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
That is kind of intriguing
But what to make of it?
What I like about Clement is that he’s an emergency 3rd catcher, which frees up JR (or whomever) to use the 2nd catcher (whether Doumit or Kratz) as necessary.
What I don’t like is that he can only play one position for an org loaded with marginal 1Bs.
What to make of it? Nothing right now, but at this point, if I was manager, I’d strike when the iron is hot and give him some starts at the expense of Milledge and maybe Jones as well.
Clement was worse than Jones and Milledge earlier this year, but he didn’t exactly get a huge shot (less than 130 AB) and I wouldn’t mind giving him some more since Milledge has been subpar for a much longer span, and Jones has dropped off as well. Get some more data on whether Clement can hit at all, and worry about position only if he does continue decent work.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 4, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I forgot there’s no way Clement gets at-bats when our favorite player, Doumit, returns.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 4, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, exactly
Given the way Jones has been hitting (not to mention Milledge), there’s no reason not to give Clement 2-3 starts/week – except for Doumit.
I can’t believe our ridiculous glut of 1B/RF. The maddening thing is that the odds are good that not a single one turns into an above-average player for any length of time, but you can argue that any one of them could be the guy who does it. So do you stick with Doumit on the basis of contract and extra position? You kind of have to.
What a stupid problem.
IMO, calling up Clement just to occasionally pinch-hit (given the logjam) was basically the FO giving up on him.
3-5 with 2 HR won’t change anything, even on this power-starved team, unless he remains Craig Wilsonian with the PH HRs.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 4, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Doumit has
absolutely no value as a catcher. He cant catch and its not a secret amongst other teams. I just dont see how he has much value at all.
Up until this season...
…he was a perfectly adequate defensive catcher. The question thus becomes whether or not he can return to that past form.
His ability behind the plate
has always been in question. Not sure what past form you are referring to.
I don't consider Doumit a good starting catcher...
..but he’s more than capable of being a back up catcher that gets a start a week behind the plate.
Doumit hasn’t been good this season by any means, but it’s nuts to hear people talk about him not having any place as a catcher, even as a backup. Is it ideal to pay a backup catcher 6 million? No, but if they plan on getting him 300 at bats through various positions, it’s not a total loss. It also saves a roster spot. I’d strongly lean against going with three catchers, as the health benefit of Doumit not playing everyday should make him an adequate backup.
Check the numbers.
This season, Doumit’s throwing out 11% of base stealers. Prior to this season, his career average had been a little over 29% (actually a hair above league average). That’s a huge, huge dropoff, and most of the reason why people are pushing to have him replaced.
It goes far beyond caught stealing percentage
His fundamentals and mechanics as a catcher have seemingly regressed. He still stabs at balls far too often and simply doesn’t know how to block a ball. This is just in addition his poor CS percentage this year. Add in his inability to stay healthy behind the plate and spat of concussions and his value is just not there. His bat just doesn’t look as good in other positions on the field. Its unfortunate.
Well, yeah, he hasn't performed well defensively this year.
But that was my point. Up until this year, he wasn’t great on balls in the dirt, but he wasn’t ghastly either. He wasn’t great at blocking the plate, but he wasn’t ghastly, either. He was adding enough runs with the bat to more than make up for any deficiencies in his glove.
So if in 2011 he can get back to the defensive form that he showed through 2009, he’ll be a perfectly adequate starting catcher again (for the parts of the year when he’s healthy, anyway).
I certainly wouldn't give him up for nothing
We aren’t that good that we can’t find a way to get him in the lineup a few times a week at minimum.
Why is he regressing at catcher
when his manager was a catcher? If he hasn’t learned to block balls in the dirt, what does that say about JR’s ability to teach anything? I mean, if a catcher can’t teach a catcher …
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Photo: Padres fan regrets letting mother capture moment with Trevor Hoffman
- Marlins agree to unretire No. 5 for Logan Morrison, who will honor his father’s favorite player
- Weatherman Derek Holland does Dallas TV
- Ask Alex: Will Julio Teheran or Matt Moore win rookie of the year?
- Ku Klux Klan, umpires and bowling: Why the minor leagues tossed out Jim Evans academy
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
