Pirates Will "Go Out Of Their Way" To Find Playing Time For Ryan Doumit
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 7, 2010 2:42 AM EDT
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Ugh. What sense does this make?
The Pirates apparently are set to go out of their way to get him in the lineup, mostly in right field, some at catcher, and a bit at first base. But that does not, by itself, demonstrate their determination. Lastings Milledge, who appears to be finding his footing, will not play as much. And now, yesterday, John Russell even allowed that Andrew McCutchen and Jose Tabata will be getting rested, his explanation being that he does not want to wear those two down.
The P-G goes on to wonder why the Pirates would worry about wearing McCutchen and Tabata down, and I wonder the same thing. Weird injuries aside, if anyone is capable of playing every day, it's McCutchen, who's young and incredibly athletic, and has no history of nagging problems. He played 157 games last year. And starting Doumit ahead of Milledge - why? Doumit is the better hitter against righties, but Doumit still only has a .797 career OPS against them, and Milledge is the better defensive player. And, more importantly, it isn't like the Pirates are chasing a pennant here. One reason to send Milledge out there against righties is so that he'll improve, and really be able to hit them by the time the Bucs really need him to.
If the Pirates want to play Doumit one day a week in the outfield, fine. I suppose there's nothing to really complain about until we see what they actually do. But the Post-Gazette makes it sound like he'll play a whole lot. Doumit has talent and isn't without his uses - as an occasional catcher, and as a pinch-hitter. But without some defensive ability, he's a bench player. One thing I really liked about the Chris Snyder acquisition was that it signaled that the Pirates recognized Doumit's limitations. Let's hope that's really what that trade meant. I suppose it's possible that, freed from the physical (and mental) demands of catching, Doumit's bat will catch fire. But I doubt it, and even then I'm not sure what purpose that will serve - if he can't catch, he just isn't the sort of player who will fetch much on the trade market.
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Sounds like the only way that makes sense is if they’re trying to build up Doumit’s trade value for this offseason, although that does mean he has to perform when he gets these opportunities and also manage to not get hurt.
Yeah. The only hope for him to gain any value is to start hitting like an above-average outfielder.
It seems likely his days as a major league starter are numbered, and he’ll have missed some part of his most useful time due to injuries and Paulino being pigeonholed as a supposedly good defensive catcher.
Yeah. The only hope for him to gain any value is to start hitting like an above-average outfielder.
The last two years he’s only hit a little more than the average catcher. To make this plan work, Doumit would have to reach an offensive level I don’t think he can get to anymore (due to age and getting banged up so much), and also stay healthy for some length of time, which is again unlikely.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 7, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not a ringing endorsement of Doumit that he’s barely a better hitter than one of the biggest disappointments for the organization in 2010.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 8, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m no Milledge fan, but I would hardly say Milledge has been a big disappointment. He’s not shown himself to be even average at this point, but unless you thought he was destined to be a super star, I don’t see how you can say that.
It depends on each person’s expectations. I figured Milledge would be not a star this year, but he would be one of the three most productive guys along with McCutchen and Alvarez.
That expectation may have been unreasonable, but he’s shown basically no development this season, and now most want to platoon him with non-major-league hitters like Moss and Bowker
Milledge’s lack of improvement has set the team back from what I expected pre-season. Back then, he was the third highest upside guy in the organization because of the skill-set. Lastings could still recover and be a solid player but that outcome looks farther away now.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 8, 2010 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I hope they can get rid of him because he has been a major disappointment. He is horrific behind the plate, can not play first base and I am sure he will be a disaster in right field. Unfortunately for him he doesn’t even hit well enough to stick on an American league team in a DH/catcher/first base role. I hope the dodgers after losing Martin for the year are desperate enough to make another trade with the pirates. Doumit would have to clear waivers, but with his salary I don’t think that is a big issue. I just think getting him off the payroll and off the team is the best solution to the issue!
Sounds familiar?
Doumit is sure starting to look like a new version of Craig Wilson.
It sure would be nice if we could see a plan in place.
More like Eric Hinske with less hitting.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 7, 2010 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Injuries and age have taken their toll on Ryan at this point. If Doumit was like his career numbers on both offense of defense, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Even for Doumit’s career (ignoring the injury stuff), he’s no better at the plate than a $2 million rent-a-bat.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 7, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Injuries and age have apparently taken such a toll on Doumit's bat...
…that he’s dropped all the way down from his career 104 OPS+ to a 100 OPS+ this year.
As for potential value on a roster...
…look at Ty Wigginton. He was a popular target of trade speculation at the deadline, though Baltimore ultimately decided to keep him. He’s a total fumbling incompetent at all of his defensive positions (much more so, I would argue, than Doumit). And in his two years in Baltimore, he’s hit .265/.324/.425, good for a 98 OPS+. Which is, I must note, lower than Doumit’s allegedly “injury and age”-diminished 2010 line.
So the idea that Doumit is some kind of immovable roster albatross is, quite frankly, bollocks.
Teams like when a player can play all of those infield positions, even if he doesn’t do it very well (like Ramon Vazquez or Bobby Crosby). Doumit would be marketed as a 1B/C-OF and emergency catcher.
Doumit’s career has taken a standard path so far: rising at age 24-25, peak performance at 26-27, decline at age 28-29 (over 600+ PA). Do we think he’s going to hit another peak at the end of the age 29 season and going into 30?
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 7, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Doumit's going to be the backup catcher, not an emergency guy
Big difference. Teams have to carry a backup catcher anyway, so a guy that can fill in at the corner positions and provide league-average offense will have some value. It beats carrying Jason Jaramillo or Humberto Cota on your roster.
Decline at age 28-29 is most definitely NOT a standard path.
You seem to be torturing the data in an effort to make it fit your thesis. Wouldn’t it be equally valid to point out that Doumit has had two of the three best offensive seasons of his career in the last three years?
If teams like defensive versatility at the expense of competence, why wouldn’t Doumit get the same credit for playing 1B and OF that Wigginton gets? And how do you know that Doumit couldn’t be marketed as a catcher? Up until 2010, he was perfectly adequate behind the plate – maybe there are some teams that think he can rebound with a mechanical adustment or a change of scenery.
It’s not a standard path for a third baseman, but the context is different in this case. We’re looking at a delicate catcher who has taken an above-average beating during his years behind the plate. Injuries shorten the timeframe where players will give their top production.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 7, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you could argue...
…that he’s taken a below-average beating during his years behind the plate, in that he missed a lot of games (and the associated pounding) from non-traumatic injuries like muscle pulls. Those don’t really have any long-term consequences, and the games when Doumit was sitting on the bench nursing a hammy (or something similar) were games where he wasn’t getting hit with foul tips and beating seven kinds of hell out of his knees in a crouch.
Sounds like a whole lot
of lip service to me. We just need to show other teams he is healthy right now. So we can dump his salary. Which would be a blessing.
Actually,
it sounds like more of Ryan Church…play him, whether he deserves it or not.
I think it's justifiable.
One of the primary aims down the stretch should be finding out information that will be to their benefit at the start of the next year. Another should be aiding the growth and development of players who will be on the roster going forward.
The way things are right now, we don’t really know whether Doumit can play in the OF, and if so, how well he can do it. And we can’t necessarily assume that he’ll be traded this offseason, since we can’t know the level of interest on the market. As such, it makes some amount of sense for the team to give him starts out there. Doing so a) gives him needed reps at a position where he may be the top reserve next year and b) makes it clear whether or not Doumit is a viable candidate for that job while we still have enough time to find a replacement if he proves incapable.
Now, there’s obviously a point at which giving him additional PT becomes counterproductive, of course. We’ll have to see exactly how they distribute the playing time before we know whether they’re across that line or not.
by Vlad on Aug 7, 2010 8:17 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
+1
I also agree Charlie’s point about not resting McCutchen (unless the shoulder is still bothering him). At best, we have five more seasons with Cutch. We should extract everything we can from him before he moves on. Play him every single game.
I think that there is a lot of evidence
that players who play almost every game wear down and their hitting tails off late in the season..
It's also possible...
…that the front office is willing to take PT away from Milledge because they’ve decided that he’s nothing but a placeholder going forward. I don’t agree with that position, but there were certainly a lot of people espousing it here on the site a few months ago, and it’s
not totally unjustifiable.
by Vlad on Aug 7, 2010 8:19 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I'd still vote against Milledge
I think Doumit can be average in RF, I also still think he has the bat to hit .300+ with close to 20hr.
Milledge is not much better defensively, makes even more boneheaded plays on offense and defense, imo maxes out around .290 in a best case scenario, doesn’t steal bases or draw many walks to make up for it, and has little power.
I’m not against Doumit getting about 1/2 or 2/3rd of the PT in RF next year with some catcher mixed in and Milledge filling in for all 3 OF’s. Either Pearce or Bowker could be the 5th OF/backup 1B.
Doumit played 38 games in the OF in 2007. Of course, that was not in front of this front office or manager. He wasn’t deemed good enough to play more than one game there the last 2 years. We know he cannot play a good defensive game at 1B or C. I guess RF is all that’s left.
So Pirates management figures it’s worth spending 50 games playing Doumit in RF most of the time this season…and then figure out who is going to man the OF with Cutch and Tabata next year? If Milledge isn’t good enough to play RF now, I expect him to be off the roster entirely next season. Anything else, and it tells me that they were just trying to prop up Doumit’s trade value. Just as they tried it with Church. And it didn’t work then, either. Unless they are expecting Doumit to hit .330 with 10 HRs between now and the end of the season.
I posted this somewhere else too, but Doumit in his limited action in 2007 posted a 40.5 UZR/150 according to fangraphs. This figure is unreliable due to the small sample size, but leaves open the possibility that he would be OK in RF. Personally, I’d rather have Bowker, Jones, or Moss. But having your back-up catcher be a part-time or full-time OF means that you can have a stronger bench.
Frankly...
I expect the Pirates to keep Kratz. Otherwise, JR will be uncomfortable about playing their backup catcher and their catcher at the same time. Unless they are willing to keep Clement and have him as an emergency catcher. And he’s caught part of 1 game in the last 12 months.
“He wasn’t deemed good enough to play more than one game there the last 2 years. We know he cannot play a good defensive game at 1B or C. I guess RF is all that’s left.”
This is ridiculous. He hasn’t played OF the last 2 years because he was our full-time, starting catcher and we had no backup we wanted to get into the lineup. He is also more than capable of still playing C. He’s only 6 months away from being perfectly average on defense.
Because our 1B was in AAA and the other was on the DL?
He has also been pretty poor this year behind the plate, I can’t dispute that.
That's a little bit disingenuous.
The reason he wasn’t playing in the outfield under the current management team is that he was starting behind the plate instead. So the only conclusion you can really draw is that they thought at the time that playing him as a catcher (and someone else as an outfielder) provided more benefit to the team than playing him as an outfielder (and someone else as a catcher).
Tempest in a teapot......
Doumit will prob. make it moot by getting hurt again before the season’s over.
Doumit conundrum
I think they’ll play him alot for the next few weeks and IF he hits a few homers and looks half decent in the field, they’ll try hard to dump him before the next trade deadline, mostly likely package with Moss/Aki/Andy L and some cash in exchange for a bucket of baseballs.
If he doesn’t hit much, they’ll try the same over the offseason, but have to eat alot of cash to get rid of him.
Doumit's power
We’ve been told for years that Doumit has all of this power, but we shouldn’t forget that Ryan Doumit has only hit 54 home runs in a career that spans 490 games and almost 1800 plate appearances. Unless he pulls a Jose Bautista, I’d say he’d be lucky to hit 5 more HRs the rest of the season (and that’s if he played every day).
To put Doumit’s power numbers into perspective:
Ryan Church has also hit exactly 54 home runs in his career (with only about 180 more plate appearances.)
Lastings Milledge has 32 career HR in about 200 fewer PAs.
I don’t think anybody is calling Church or Milledge a power hitter, so I’ve never been sure why Doumit is thought of as one.
Power doesn't just equal HR.
It’s also doubles and triples, which a lot of people forget about.
Doumit’s career isolated power is .171. That’s not a knock-your-socks-off number, but it’s perfectly adequate for a corner player. To reach for a familiar point of comparison, Xavier Nady’s career isolated power is .174.
Soooo
Um, is comparing Doumit’s isolated power numbers (whatever that is) to Nady’s supposed to make me feel better???
I think you just proved the point that Doumit is no power hitter, whether as a catcher or anywhere in the field, if any of his numbers are worse than Nady’s..
Or do you believe that Xavier Nady is considered a decent power guy?? Haha!!!
Nevermind
Ryan Church’s career ISO is .165. And…..Chris Snyder’s is .167.
So Xavier Nady, Ryan Doumit, Ryan Church and Chris Snyder all have relatively identical power numbers. Nady & Church are bench guys…..so I’d have to figure that Doumit’s power numbers are enough to start as a catcher, but be nothing more than a bench guy anywhere else.
See….we didn’t even need stats to figure that one out.
And what does that prove?
Church is a bench guy because his skills are apparently in severe decline, and his career numbers are a lagging indicator. Nady is a bench guy because he hurt his arm and can’t really throw right now – if he hadn’t, he’d no doubt still be getting starting gigs. Snyder is, like Doumit, a catcher with well-above-average power for a catcher.
There are numerous starting LFs/RFs/1Bs with an ISO that is similar to Doumit’s career number. From 2010: Hunter Pence (.166), Garrett Jones (.166), Gaby Sanchez (.167), Juan Rivera (.167), Lyle Overbay (.168), Magglio Ordonez (.170), Jason Kubel (.173), and Fred Lewis (.173). There are also many starters performing below that level this year who are still reasonably productive with the bat, including (but not limited to) Johnny Damon, Raul Ibanez, Michael Cuddyer, Bobby Abreu, Jay Bruce, Nick Markakis, Troy Glaus, Billy Butler, and James Loney.
Are all of those players also underqualified to be anything other than bench guys?
Doumit
I would think that it proves that Doumit doesn’t have the power to be a starter anywhere but as a catcher, which he’s proving he’s no longer got the skill set to do.
It proves that Doumit...
…doesn’t have the power to be an above-average hitter anywhere but as a catcher (barring offensive improvements). But there’s a significant amount of value in just being average.
Isolated Power...
…is a statistic developed by Branch Rickey in the 1950s, when he was working as the Pirates’ GM, making it one of the oldest commonly-used sabermetric stats (he talks about it some in an article that’s reprinted here). It’s a good thumbnail gague of a hitter’s power: extra bases per at-bat.
Since you seem like you might be the kind of guy who doesn’t like thinking about numbers too much, there’s also an easy way to calculate it: just subtract BA from SLG.
Actually.....
I am a person who likes thinking about numbers, it’s just that I’m of the belief that just because you CAN compute something, that you should or that it actually means anything.
It seems to me that isolated power is something that is easily inferred from looking at slugging percentage.
However, I think that both slugging percentage and isolated power are severely flawed stats.
Both assume that a double is “twice” as much power as a single (which I don’t believe is true). Or that a triple is 25% more power than a double, when really, triples are almost always just doubles that have either been misplayed by the outfielder or have been the result of the hitters’ speed, not power.
This would give someone like a Nyjer Morgan a higher number on his isolated power or slugging than his power really dictates. Say Nyjer has 5 triples and Garrett Jones has 5 doubles. Really, they have the exact same power, but Nyjer’s speed would give him a huge advantage, and his numbers would be higher than they warrant.
While I get that these are stats that have been used for a while, I think that anything that uses total bases is flawed from the start.
If you have a stat that treats triples the same as doubles, and doesn’t treat a home run as “twice” as much power as a double, I think you’d have a more telling stat.
Perhaps just the number of extra base hits divided by ABs. Or give doubles & triples a 1 and home runs like a 1.1 or even a 1.25 and add those up.
If you want to measure a hitter's power...
…ISO is more useful than SLG, insofar as SLG can be inflated by singles, and singles don’t really tell you anything about a hitter’s power. Ichiro has a career .431 SLG, for example, but his career ISO is only .100.
There are tweaks that you can make to improve the utility of ISO for various applications, but it’s meant to be a way of generating a quick thumbnail sketch of a hitter’s ability, not a be-all and end-all. You can run a hitter’s ISO in about fifteen seconds, without doing any calculations more complicated than long division.
If you want to treat triples as doubles for the purposes of calculation in order to focus in more on the strictly power-based aspects of things, that’s fine. Some people do that (I’m pretty sure that Ron Shandler does in some of his stuff, for instance). The vanilla version is just about how many extra bases the hitter generates, regardless of whether he’s doing it with his wrists or his legs, because Rickey was using it more as a gague of value generated than as a predictive tool (the eternal conflict of stats, right?).
[As an aside, ISO doesn’t credit a hitter with twice as much power for a home run as for a double, as you said toward the end of your post. It credits him with three times as much. A double gives you one extra base above and beyond a plain ol’ hit, and a home run gives you three.]
And of course...
…part of the reason that Doumit was talked about as a power hitter with an ISO that would be merely adequate for a corner player is that up until a month ago, he wasn’t a corner player. He was a catcher. And catchers generally don’t hit for much power. For a catcher, an ISO in the .170s is a very good figure.
Doumit isn't a power hitter
but he’s probably average or slightly above average in power overall. Relative to position he has good power at C, below avg at 1B and about avg for RF.
Doumit’s below average for power in RF as well.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 7, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no objection to Doumers getting 4-5 starts a week at various positions. I think most fans are down on him because he’s been around for so long and we all expected much more from him than he’s really capable of delivering. But in reality, he’s just as good with the bat as Garrett Jones, who most seem to like quite a bit, and I don’t think his defense at 1B is all that different than Jones’s. They’re both kinda bad over there. Milledge has been playing OK, but he’s not as good a hitter as Doumit and his defense in RF is nothing special either. So I really don’t see the concern…Doumit is just as good as the guys he replaces, if not slightly better.
No way on Doumit defense anywhere, especially First Base
Pay close attention and you’ll see that GI Jones is a tall, lanky guy who very effectively scoops and reaches up, down and sideways for ALL of Pedro’s errant throws across the diamond.
Doumit did not and cannot handle scooping any throws and has far less height and reach than Jones. So look for Pedro’s errors to climb quick if NoMitt gets time at first base.
This is strictly a budget issue for the Pirates trumping performance issues. They need to fool some team into believing Doumit’s bat is worth something so they can unload $ 5 million.
Jones is not good at 1B
And Doumit has only played a few games there this year. People are overreacting to Doumit’s poor play in 1 or 2 games in Detroit this year. They’re not that different.
Jones at 1st
Actually, I think that Jones has a decent glove over there, it’s when he’s got to throw the ball (to another base or to the pitcher covering over at first) that Jones looks really scary
HyperbolFaninCA...
I believe you are correct about this being a budget issue. I think the Bucs would like nothing better than to be able to deal Doumit before the August waver deadline. There is no way they’ll keep two expesnive catchers on the team, especially when one is killing them on defense and not providing enough offense to make up for it. I also like Garret’s size at first base as he does provide a lot of range for “everyone’s” throws, not just Pedro’s. Pedro’s defense is not stellar. We all knew that was the knock on him coming up. He is a -12 something UZR/150 which is probably right around his talent level right now. What I’d like to know is why you go out of your way to exagerrate his play? Are you trying to make the case that his defense is so bad that he shouldn’t be playing? I’ve been reading these exaggerated comments of yours in nearly every thread so I’m just trying to understand the point you are trying to make.
I don't think Jones' defense at first is bad
in the least. He’s made really good progress there, and there are times he looks quite good. He has saved a number of bad throws, and having been an infielder I cam appreciate a guy who can stretch and pick. I’m not as down on Doumit as some, but he can’t hold Jones’ jockstrap at first.
by RichieHebner on Aug 8, 2010 12:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Guess we just disagree, then
Because I think he’’s pretty bad. His throwing is generally poor and he has a tendency to just miss balls thrown right at him. Does he also make good plays? Yes, but overall I think his defense is below average. He’s not as good as LaRoche and he was considered an average defensive 1B. I believe he does play a better 1B than Doumit, but the difference is not as great as some seem to think..
UZR pretty much pegs him as an average felding 1B and RF.
That’s also what my eyes tell me. He’s had trouble throwing to 2B lately, but that’s a small part of playing 1B. I think he’s pretty good at scoops, too, which is not reflected in UZR.
The last sentence is important.
UZR doesn’t measure the entirety of a 1B’s job, in that it doesn’t have a “hands” component. So if you think that Jones deserves credits or demerits in that area, adjust your estimate accordingly.
Doumit....why???
I can’t under any circumstances see Ryan Doumit being a starting outfielder, so if all they are going to do is try to turn Doumit into a back-up C/1B/RF, then, to be honest, I’d rather just have Clement do that. He’s certainly got more power than Doumit, plays 1B/OF as good, if not better than Doumit, and can back up Snyder maybe up to 20 or 30 games behind the plate if they need him.
Ooops....
Forgot that Clement hasn’t ever played the outfield. Well…..he’s probably still as good as Doumit out there!!!!
Clement's knees are also supposedly too shot...
…for him to catch on anything more than an occasional/emergency basis.
Clement Rather Than Doumit
I would rather see Clement back at 1B and Jones moved to RF than Doumit anywhere in the field. Still not ready to turn away from Milledge.
Amen.
I still think that Clement has a future with the team. Saw the Pirates in person last night, and Jones doesn’t look real smooth out at first. Cost the Pirates at least one, if not 2 outs, when Duke had the runners picked off. Jones threw both too high to 2nd base (one was caught and the other went into left field).
Someone has to scoop Pedro’s wild throws and have at least 7 foot wing span up, left and right! Watch the game closely tonight and you’ll see that GI Jones has to extend or scoop every throw Pedro makes.
If not, Pedro’s long batting slumps COMBINED with body flops one step to his right and left as playable balls wiz by him COMBINED with errant throws to first that Doumit/Clement can’t grab will earn Pedro a ticket back to AAA as someone who is not ready on offense or defense.
Classic HyperbolFaninCA!!!
Forget replying to my post up above (if you intended to), this post of yours answered all of my questions. Thanks.
Well, thanks, let me elaborate then...
Starting pitching deficient and power deficient teams like the Pirates (are there any others with this bad a combo?) MUST have tight and above average defense everywhere to compete. You can see Tabata, Cutch, Cedeno actually taking away hits from other teams every night while most of our other defenders at least are solid in their position (not that NoMitt is out). If your third baseman has no range, routine outs turn into singles and doubles burying the team. Pirates need an above average defender at 3B who can take away hits. So far, Pedro’s offense (on rare days when its happening) is a wash because he opens the floodgates in the field in some particular inning. Meanwhile, on days when he doesn’t hit (most days), he’s on overall liability due to lack of defensive skill.
HyperbolFaninCA...
I got your point from the post above. What I’m missing is what you propose to do if you send Pedro down. Do you plan on playing Andy every day at 3rd again? Move Walker to 3rd and recall Aki? What’s your plan? Given the Pirate’s deficiencies, as you stated above, is it better to let Pedro develop in AAA or in Pittsburgh? It’s not like the Bucs are going anywhere this season. For Pedro to be the valuable asset we all think he will be, he needs to produce at the plate. I’m not sure spending more time in Indy will aid his porgression. Also, holding to your theory, if you are going to send Pedro down then surely Walker and Jones will be demotes as well since Walker is currently a very poor defender at 2B by most defensive metrics and Jones isn’t a plus defender nor not hitting enough to compensate. Jones has a .330 wOBA. You are saying the Pedro’s bat isn’t ready yet Pedro has a .327 wOBA as a rookie. Seems to me it would be best to just let Pedro develop in Pittsburgh since he can work on his defense as well in the Burg as in Indy.
Look, I'm not yet 100% sold on Pedro.
He is no Gold Glove candidate and big-time leftys seem to be able to exploit some holes in his swing. However, he only has a little over 150 major league at-bats and possesses obvious skill. Accordingly, labeling him as Steve Sax in the field and Dave Kingman at the plate appears to me a rush to judgment.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
This is good
No reason to keep 3 catchers on the roster, Clement can catch and so can Walker in a dire emergency.
I don't have a big problem with it either...
I would just like to see Clement get more than 4-5 AB’s a week.
Kratz should probably get used to riding the shuttle.
Having a full set of options like he does, he’s a good candidate for us to stash at Indy for the next couple of years and bring up whenever our primary gets hurt.
Accordingly, I bet Jaramillo’s toast this offseason.
It is time to move Pedro to clean-up and move Jones to the #5 slot.....
More at-bats for Pedro, more power in Pedro, possibly he will see some better pitches as well.
Do it….
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Aug 7, 2010 3:36 PM EDT reply actions
I really have no problem with playing Doumit in RF over Milledge.
The Pirates would do well to find out if Doumit can hit if he’s not behind the plate.
Play him exclusively over Milledge?
Or split playing time?
I don’t see why Doumit would be more warranted to get all the playing time over Milledge. Doumit’s career numbers per 162 games are better, and I realize they think the numbers can possibly be even better not having the wear and tear of catching, but at the same time arguments can be made that Milledge’s age and pedigree should at least warrant 300-400 AB’s next season if no one else steps up to considerably push Milledge into a bench role.
For the rest of this year, they could just do what they did when Church was here, just a strict platoon. That’s most likely, but I’d prefer a four-man rotation in the outfield, with Cutch playing all but maybe one game a week, Tabata all but two, and the rest split between Milledge and Church.
Doumit needs to play at least a little bit or be traded. You can’t just waste him. His offense isn’t bad enough to just let him wilt on the bench. That would be counterproductive.
by Suffering Buc on Aug 7, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to say Milledge shouldn't play at all.
You can get Doumit 4 or 5 starts per week by resting Tabata once, Jones once, Milledge twice and Cutch once.
by MarkInDallas on Aug 7, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Victor Martinez has a microscopic Catcher vs. 1B/DH split in his career hitting numbers. Only a few OPS points difference. Don’t expect a 2008 flashback for Doumit just because he isn’t “catching”.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 7, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Some guys have improved...
…and some guys haven’t. Mike Sweeney’s numbers really took off once he moved to first base full-time, for example.
In any event, it certainly can’t hurt to try it out, and see which camp Doumit belongs in.
If the idea is to eventually trade Doumit, either through waivers before the end of this month or over this offseason (and I believe that IS the underlying idea) than I am fine with this. Though I don’t think Doumit has a place on the 2011 Pirates, anything that increases his trade value is fine with me. But I think the 3rd outfield spot next year will, in all likelihood, be manned by Milledge/Bowker/hopefully a platoon of the two, so I hope that we don’t cut into Lastings’ time too much.
For that matter, LaRoche and Clement probably also have no place on the 2011 team…although maybe LaRoche could replace Delwyn and Clement could be an interesting backup catcher/1b/left-handed power guy off the bench?
oh man. why? he lacks completely on the defensive side of the game regardless of what position he is playing. snyder is 100 times better than him behind the plate, milledge is definitely better than him in outfield (though he is questionable at times), and even though jones is definitely not the best defensive first baseman in the league, he’s better than doumit, and that was proven when doumit played there this season. his offense is ok nowadays, but i feel if he wants the chance to actually start everyday, he’s got some work to do. there’s guys on this team with way more upside than him.
Since I was playing devil's advocate above...
…I should also note that my biggest concern about Doumit getting more PT in the OF going forward is durability. I’ve seen him play in the OF before, back when I used to have a partial season package, and in one of those games I saw him pull a hammy coming in on a fly ball. He’s not cut from the sturdiest cloth, even when he’s out from behind the plate.
One positive of Doumit in the field is that the negative impact on Duke and Maholm’s ERA will lower their cost for possible contract extensions.
thats not gonna matter
Considering that no sane GM would acquire Duke and his 5+ million salary next year nor a small-market team would keep a 5.50 ERA pitcher in the payroll unless he makes the league minimum.
Maholm’s agent Bo McKinnis will not give the Buccos any consideration for a lengthy contract extension so Maholm will be gone no later than July 31st, 2011 making room for the Owens and Wilsons.
by BadAndy on Aug 7, 2010 6:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’d keep Duke on board because he’s our 2nd best starter (or 3rd with McDonald), and no FA would even touch this place with Milledge/Doumit roaming the corner outfield, not to mention other questionable defenders on the team.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 7, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
UZR sees Milledge as a net plus OF defender...
…since coming to the Pirates. The sample in question is 1,247 defensive innings, which is pretty close to the point where you can start making broad bad/not bad judgments about a player (though not good enough to say that he’s a +5, rather than a +10 or a +/-0, say). And it’s potentially valid to draw the line there, given the team’s complaints about his lack of defensive knowledge when he arrived and the huge amount of extra defensive instruction he’s been receiving since day one in black and gold.
Also, Doumit looked perfectly adequate in the outfield back in the day. They had him stop doing it because he provided more value to the team as a catcher, not because he was some kind of mythical ironglove out there.
How much are Milledge’s mental gaffes (such as frequently throwing to the wrong base, for example gunning it home or 3rd base when there’s no play and allowing the other runner on first to advance to second base) factored into the UZR components? Is that a part of the Arm or Error score?
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 7, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Those would be accounted for under +/-...
where Milledge is worth 0 DRS this season and +1 DRS last season. Not quite as good as his UZR stats but not horrible either.
I’ll buy that Milledge has decent defense. He’ll have to hit better than a catcher eventually to have much value as a starter, though.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 7, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
No argument there.
I just hated to see him get ripped for the glove, when (to my eyes, at least) he seems to have worked hard and made genuine progress in that area.
He has made significant progress
His major problem is his instincts—he hasn’t yet developed instinct for throwing to the right base, or on the basepaths. He repeats dumb mistakes with mind-numbing frequency.
by RichieHebner on Aug 8, 2010 12:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Those are, at least in theory, correctable.
I’d rather have a guy making those kinds of mistakes than a guy who makes slow reads, or who can’t run, or who has “don’t give me your baby” hands.
I would say Milledge’s outfield reads are not very good. He makes up for that with spectacular diving plays on balls he probably should be getting to with leaving his feet.
I think he makes bad reads sometimes.
But that’s not the same thing as slow reads.
A guy making bad reads (and thus taking sub-optimal routes) has trouble judging ball trajectories, and that can sometimes be improved with reps, just like players can learn to spot breaking balls by standing at the plate and watching a kajillion of them. A guy making slow reads, on the other hand, usually just has a bad reaction time, and there’s not much to be done about that.
Vlad ...
I agree routes can be improved with repetition.
But he’s essentially had three years in MLB.
He is what he is. In my opinion, a placeholder (.700 OPS guy who is okay on defense).
"He is what he is" is a tautology, you know.
Sure, Milledge is what he is. But he isn’t what he was even a year ago: a guy with a terrible glove.
So if he’s improved between then and now, who’s to say that he can’t keep improving his defensive work if he keeps at it?
I think he can improve
He’s a good athlete, and he can learn to do better what he’s doing wrong now. Some guys take months, and some take years.
by RichieHebner on Aug 8, 2010 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
1,600 plate appearances
Let’s be realistic. He has more than 1,600 MLB plate appearances.
It’s highly unlikely he’s going to become a good, let alone an elite, player.
He may improve somewhat defensively. But I doubt he’s going to improve his hitting much.
He looks more like a 4th outfielder to me.
Is there some magical difference...
…between 1,600 plate appearances in the majors and 1,600 plate appearances in the minors?
Milledge is five months older than Neil Walker. Prior to this season’s apparent ML breakout, Walker had 2893 professional PA. 2853 in the minors, and 40 in the majors last fall. Over Milledge’s entire career, he’s had 3167 professional PA.
So because of those extra 300 professional PA, and the fact that he was rushed to the majors before he should have been, Milledge is prima facie doomed to a career of mediocrity?
Delmon Young is a hopeful example, although he’s the same age now as Milledge and having the breakout.
I’m less optimistic at this point, but since some of the other options are laughable (how about a Moss-Milledge platoon?) they may as well just send him out everyday I guess.
Better than Doumit, who I’m not nearly as optimistic about the bat going forward as you guys.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 9, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
The trick is that Duke isn't a 5.50 ERA pitcher.
He’s a 4.50 ERA pitcher on a team whose defense adds a run to his ERA.
A smart team with a lineup full of good gloves would have no trouble understanding that fact, and taking advantage of it.
He'd be a much better fit
in Atlanta or San Diego, to name two places. Big parks and better fielders.
by RichieHebner on Aug 8, 2010 12:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You cant keep playing Milledge vs righties if you intend to win
Some fans think “play him so he can learn”. The guy has played how many years? Seriously, this guys numbers dont qualify him as a good hitting short stop not alone RF’er vs righties.
If he needs to learn to hit a right hander, that is done in AAA and not in the majors where the supposed goal is to win games.
Milledge hits lefties well enough to be part of a platoon and be valuable as a pinch hitter vs lefty relievers but his numbers vs righties aren’t even close to major league standards.
Gorzolanny was red hot at Indy and is currently the cubs best starter. We didn’t even give him a chance though he was unhittable for 2 months. So the question is, why are we not calling Moss up as his almost .980 OBS the past 2 months and his19 HR’s 78 RBI’s for the year dwarf everyone elses? This guy is red hot and he’s killing right handed pitchers, I feel he might be the perfect Platoon with Milledge. As hot as he is, he deserves the chance to prove himself, something the bucs screwed up on with Gorzo.
This team cant afford to keep giving away players who go on to succeed for other teams, esp when their AAA numbers are screaming that these guys are finally ready.
Gorzo trade ...
was just terrible, as I and others posted at the time.
He had recovered from his innings abuse from several years ago.
He was throwing 95 mph. And we gave him up for a guy (Hart) who had failed multiple times at the MLB level and a promising relief pitcher.
Throw out that they got injured. The Pirates did not get a good return for Gorzo. In fact, Gorzo would have been their best starter this year and was sought after at the trade deadline.
The FO just missed this one.
95 MPH Gorzelanny?
What what?
Per PitchFX, Gorz’s average ML fastball in 2009 was 91.0. And this year, it’s 90.2.
And for the record...
…that reading was also more than a full MPH lower than Hart’s average ML fastball in 2009 (92.1).
Gorzo was never a hard thrower
but his numbers last summer at Indy were undeniably dominant and his history showed he had potential, if/when he was in shape. Not to even call him up when it was so obvious he deserved a shot at proving he was “back”. He would be our ace this year, which still isn’t saying much.
Moss’s production has almost been exclusively the past 2 months, he’s red hot and has been taught a new approach at Indy. It seems like their batting coach is better than Mr Long up here, Clement’s approach appears sounder too.
He’s got to be given a shot if just for the fact to see if that incredibly hot hitting is for real.
One last thought, How about that Resop kid? He looks infinitely better than Duke and Maholm by every measure. I wonder when the brass will get tired of watching those two get slugged around every 5th game.
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