Post-Gazette Notebook on Pirates Arbitration Cases
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 19, 2010 5:18 AM EDT
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PrintDejan Kovacevic has a piece in the Post-Gazette on the arbitration-eligible players this offseason.
The first-time eligible players are Joel Hanrahan, Ross Ohlendorf, Jeff Karstens, Lastings Milledge, Andy LaRoche, and Delwyn Young.
Players entering their 3rd year of arb are Zach Duke ($4.3 million salary in 2010), Ronny Cedeno ($1.125 million), and Wil Ledezma ($500,000).
Neal Huntington says that their intention is to tender them all, but they have to fit into the 2010 team. Dejan adds:
The locks to be tendered are Ohlendorf, Hanrahan and Cedeno, the latter having cemented his status with management over the past two months. Karstens is in the next tier, someone Huntington describes as "having shown to us his value" as a starter and reliever this year.
Indications remain powerful from the front office that Duke, the potentially most expensive of the group, will not be tendered after a disappointing season. His salary could increase into the $6 million range, and the Pirates apparently would prefer to use such money toward other pitching.
The possibility of tendering LaRoche, Milledge and Young, all clearly phased out of the team this summer, has diminished. Ledezma has not performed as hoped, either.
There's a decent chance we let LaRoche, Milledge, and Young walk at the end of the year, even though they shouldn't be expensive in the first year.
Out of those three hitters, I'd only tender Milledge. Without him, the reserve outfielder will be another Craig Monroe or Ryan Church. That doesn't make sense. Milledge hasn't hit worse than Garrett Jones, who is permanent-markered into the cleanup spot vs. RHP next season.
The other borderline players (Karstens, Ledezma, Young, LaRoche) are debatable. There's little to no value in that group.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Cedeno
What, the f!@#, has he done to cement his status?
…he had a pretty good July… that was aided by a .400 babip… Who the hell knows. He has set a career high in SB(12 of 15), Walks ( 21 in 451 PA!), and needs just 10 more strike outs to set a career high(110) in that category as well.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.
by gorillakilla34 on Sep 19, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions
No shit.
That’s the ONLY thing of value Ronny posesses. And even that isn’t that great. He seems to have above average range and a nice arm but is prone to be caught with his head up his ass at some very unfortunate times. If his defense falls off even a little, he and his .650ish OPS doesn’t look too valuable.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.
by gorillakilla34 on Sep 19, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
cedeno has the 3rd best fielding pct of all NL shortstops
and no, im not counting UZR, or FIP, or DIP, or BABIP, or OPP, 123 yeah you know me.
He's 9th in UZR...
when looking at players that qualify (around 1000 innings). He’s worth +2.0 runs saved. The plus/minus system doesn’t like him much; -3 defensive runs saved. So anyway, per UZR he’s a little better than average. He has certainly regressed as the season has progressed because at one point he was leading the league runs saved per UZR. He’s definitely not someone who should be penciled in as a starter already.
sorry, but im tired of the uzr, war, aol, aamco stuff
cedeno has improved since we got him in the trade. thats what ive noticed.
Cedeno
What’s pretty telling is that Cedeno leads the Pirates this year in defensive WAR with a 0.3. The only players with a positive defensive WAR are Cedeno (0.3), Bowker (0.2), Kratz (0.2), Jaramillo (0.2), Pearce (0.1) & Snyder (0.1)…..
Bet you’ll NEVER guess who has the worst defensive WAR on the team?
Actually, defensive WAR stats pretty much sums up the Pirates problems:
Doumit -1.5, Milledge -1.4, Alvarez -1.3, Jones -1.3, Walker -0.8, McCutchen -0.7.
In other words, the Pirates have lost SEVEN whole games just by putting these guys out onto the field (without them ever even coming up to the plate) over having replacements! Yikes!!
I think the Pirates have bigger problems than who starts at short – pitching, RF, 1B, the bench. Cedeno is meh, but then so are the other options.
RF isn’t a problem. Put Doumit there. He’s 3rd on the team in OPS, after all. I’m as frustrated with his play as anyone else, but the numbers are what they are, and the .761 OPS should lead to an everyday role next season.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 19, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh my!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You had me going there for a second!!!!
Yeah, a .761 OPS is exactly what’s needed to be lock up a starting job in RF for the Pirates!!!!.
Oh wait, the Pirates can get a guy VERY cheaply who’s CAREER OPS is .778 (which is 2 points higher than Doumit’s), AND he can actually play the outfield (he’s won a Gold Glove). You may have heard of him. His name is Nate McLouth.
By the way.....
Just wanted to clarify when I said “can get a guy very cheaply”, I meant that the Pirates wouldn’t have to trade much to get him. His salary is higher than Doumit’s for next year. Though he can actually play the outfield…..and he’s not hurt nearly as much……now you just have to figure out whether I’m kidding or not!!!
that's what I was thinking
and he hasn’t been downright ugly with the bat (for a shortstop).
by BlindSquirrel on Sep 19, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t look up the stats, but I believe someone else quated stats here recently that showed Cedeno was a league average SS. If that is the case, that means despite the fact his overall numbers are not that impressive, he has done better than about have the guysi n the league. We can’t let guys like that walk.
Cedeno doesn’t cut it as a starter, IMO, and shouldn’t be cemented in the status. His defense in particular has really dropped off from the first month.
A league avearge starter produces around 2.0 wins above replacement or at least is on pace for 2 WAR over a full season.
Looking at the whole career for veterans is important, as well, and Ronny’s career has been bad over something like 1800 plate appearances.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 19, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
but if you judge Cedeno PROPERLY..
i.e. against other shortstops, hes pretty much right in the middle of the pack. we could do alot worse than him. people were screaming for us to get a bartlett, or a hardy, or a scutaro… cedeno has been better than alot of the others
No, Cedeno is around 24th this year when compared to other shortstops. This is a down year for shorstops in general, and also Ronny is having a career year. We could do worse (Cezar Izturis), but it wouldn’t be easy.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 19, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
You say that it's a "career year"...
…as though that’s established fact, rather than just speculation on your part.
Pedro Ciriaco deserves a shot
With Chase’s eventual promotion to Indy next spring the infield will suddenly be crowded.
Cedeno was given all year to cement his starting spot and frankly he was more of a hinderance.
Milledge should be back but as a 4th OF (with Bowker being the reserve corner bat)
by BadAndy on Sep 19, 2010 9:58 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
hinderance?
ciriaco deserves a shot, and might stick as the backup infielder.
by white angus on Sep 19, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Pedro ...
needs to show me he can hit AAA before I’d say he deserves a shot.
He looks like a slightly better hitter than Diaz. And by slightly better, I mean slightly better.
He still has the best AVG in MLB
at 1.000 so i say why not give him a shot?
I dunno...
I can see myself getting confused by all the Pedros.
Maybe he can get a different name.
by BlindSquirrel on Sep 19, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Ciriaco could give us about the same deal as Cedeno, with the same awful on-base percentage, but less power and much more consistent defense.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 19, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
still not seeing where you think Cedeno's defense is lacking
when its his obvious strength. and dont whip out the UZR or WAR stuff; ive watched him on MLBextra innings all season and hes GETTING BETTER!
Well if we can't use evidence to support our arguments...
than you’ll always win. Good plan. The entire reason UZR and plus/minus exist is because we (and more importantly scouts) cannot see every pitch. I’ve also watched nearly every game but there is no way to tell with the naked eye if he is getting to balls that most others can’t. How can we possibly know if he is making routine plays at an above average rate…and don’t see fielding % or errors because we all know those are judgment calls heavily influenced by the hometown scorekeeper. UZR zones are unbiased. A person’s opinion of an error is not.
And
how does UZR know how hard a ball was hit, or where a player was positioned? Oh wait, it doesn’t! The creator of the damn stat tells you 1 year means nothing and yet you all just throw it out like it’s a tagalong to death and taxes. DEFENSIVE STATS MEAN ***ALL. Just look at him play and you can see the man is very good at D. Also, there isn’t anyone available that is any better.
It doesn't tell you how hard a ball is hit...
But over the course of a season or two those things normalize…they even out. Obviously the larger the sample size the more opportunities a player has to make a play on a type of batted ball. Anyway, doesn’t if follow logically that players with better range tend to get to balls that are hit harder more so than players with limited range? You still have to make the play to be credited with a run saved so fielding % is taken care by default within the zone rating. And for the record Cedeno has well over a season’s worth UZR data so your point is kind of irrelevant here anyway. But yes, UZR does have flaws, positioning being one of them, but that should not take away from the fact that it is a far better measure than fielding %. It is also a far better measure than what Mr. E’s, Slick1’s or White Angus’ personal opinon of a what a good fielder is. I look at Ronny Cedeno and I see player with a lot of tools that makes some good plays and makes some boneheaded ones too; but I can’t say that I see a good fielder. You may look at him and see a gold glover. I can’t dispute you if the evidence we are using is simply watching him play the game. How can we possibly compare him to the rest of the league; I don’t watch anyone else regularly but the Pirates? Do I evaluate him using my personal baseball experiences? Well I’m not a major leaguer so how useful is my personal experience in evaluating Ronny Cedeno? Fortunately with plus/minus and UZR I don’t have to worry about those things. And again, just because it has flaws doesn’t mean it isn’t way better than the status quo. OPS has flaws but you still think that is more useful tool than batting average, RBI or simply watching a guy hit when evaluating offensive performance don’t you?
im not seeing a gold glover
and i dont expect it from every player on the field. the problem im having with UZR, VCR, DVD and whatever is that its turning parts of the game too technical. how many teams have an entire starting lineup of guys with positive UZRs, or WARs??? cedeno has definately improved with the glove this season, which is all i need to say “cedeno has improved”… you can see it when you watch almost every game. im not slamming UZR at all, but im not throwing it a birthday party neither.
Fair enough...
I just felled compelled to explain it’s value because I used in a reply to one of your posts and you dismissed it as if it had no value. I’ll try to remember not to bother you with it in the future since you don’t buy into it.
the problem im having with UZR, VCR, DVD and whatever is that its turning parts of the game too technical. how many teams have an entire starting lineup of guys with positive UZRs, or WARs???
I’m not being a smartass but I don’t understand this question. I don’t know off hand how many teams are fielding positive UZR’s throughout the lineup but it wouldn’t be hard to look up. You asked the question though as if you were going to make a point. Do you feel there are too many teams with starting lineups filled with positive UZR’s and WAR or not enough?
i just feel that players like walker and cedeno
are being judged by super technical and not perfected statistics, and not by actually watching the games. i have watched cedeno improve immensely. walker doesnt have a quick first step but hes not awful out there. alvarez… no comment. lol… -——-it seems like the players arent worth anything if they arent perfect, and with all the newish statistics out there, hardly anyone is worth much of anything.
These "super-technical statistics"...
…are only possible due to meticulous observations made by people watching the games and recording where on the field balls in play land.
They stats aren't that technical...
As Vlad said the stats require people doing exactly what you suggest, and that’s watch the game. The big advantage they have over us is that they watch video for everyone, not just the Pirates. And just because a player may not rate out as well defensively as we perceive him to be doesn’t make him worthless by any stretch. In Walker’s case, I fully expect him to improve defensively but the way he is playing this season offensively makes him a pretty useful player. Over a full season he would be worth nearly 4 WAR and that is pretty damn good. And for the record, Walker doesn’t have nearly enough innings at second base yet to take his current UZR data and peg him as a -10 UZR going forward. Same with Alvarez. We’ll get a better idea of their UZR ratings towards the middle of next season. In the meantime, like you, I watch the games and I see a poor defender in Alvarez and an athletic defender (with potential to get better) who lacks range in Walker. I question how much that range will improve but I am hopeful.
it seems like the players arent worth anything if they arent perfect, and with all the newish statistics out there, hardly anyone is worth much of anything.
I don’t think that’s true at all. I think the stats have done the opposite. They’ve enabled us to do a better job evaluating performance…IMO. Until recently everyone judged position players by HR’s and pitchers by wins and ERA. Defense was completely overlooked and no one had heard of defensive independent pitching stats. The improvement in this area is what helps one recognize that Adam Dunn’s terrific offense last year was almost completely neutralized by his horrific defense. Why? Because a run created is equal to a run lost. These same advanaced stats helped us remember that even though first half 2009 Zach Duke had an ERA in the mid 2’s, that he was not an equal pitcher to, say, Felix Hernandez.
Those things coulddd even out, but that doesn’t mean they will and there’s no way to know. It’s up to you what you put your faith in. If you can’t watch the games and tell who is making a good amount of plays, that’s on you. I trust my observations. And you know nothing about me so I can’t blame you for not trusting my opinion. You seem like a 90-10 uzr/eyeball guy and I’m more like 50-50. Agree to disagree.
You can tell who's making plays on any given day.
But it’s harder to extrapolate year-long trends, since a guy watching fifteen games a year may just happen to see all of the games where Player A kicks the ball around, or where Player B looks like a champ. I mean, I’ve seen all of Bowker’s extra-base hits since he was traded, even though I’ve only actually watched maybe a third of the games he’s played since then. To me, he looks like King Kong up at the plate – but since the deal, he’s only putting up a .635 OPS.
Also, if you’re trying to measure a player’s range, you really have to watch the games in person. TV angles usually don’t show a fielder’s positioning prior to contact, so you won’t get a good sense of how quickly he’s reacting, how much ground he’s covering, or how direct his routes are. You’ll just see him making or not making a play on the ball.
Vlad's reply above...
explains my response better than I could. I understand your point, and you make a good one, I just rely on UZR (+/-) more because they are viewing all of the plays/players and not just watching one. I can look at Cedeno (and I do wach 95% of the games) and I see a good fielder with great fielding tools but I couldn’t tell you how many abover average plays he made. I can look up how many errors but I can’t tell you how many he should have been charged with but wasn’t just like I can’t tell you how many more balls he gets to than the average fielder. UZR does have it’s problems but I would say my faith in it depends on the sample size. For a guy like Walker or Tabta I would say that I’m about 50-50 like you. For a guy like Cedeno I would say I am more in the 80-20, 90-10 range. I also don’t really look at UZR for 1B or C either because I don’t think it really catches their true value.
Oh, and I agree that he has surprised this season...
by being better than I expected. I also saw improvement throughut the season but has hits some ruts recently.
Ciriaco’s OBP in AAA this year is lower than Cedno’s OBP in MLB.
I see no reason to believe that Ciriaco is capable of posting a .284 OBP in a full season of MLB play.
Ciriaco could still be a defensive whiz, though, which adds a lot of value.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 19, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Sickels described Ciriaco as a “solid defensive shortstop”, so I wouldn’t expect another Ozzie Smith.
His MLE from AAA this year is .227/.238/.315, so there’s every reason to expect his bat will be considerably worse than Cedeno’s. The nicest thing you can say about Ciriaco’s hitting is that he’s better than Argenis Diaz.
He’s not an everyday player and why would you expect him to be? He was a throw-in in the Chris Snyder/DJ Carrasco trade.
Give him the everyday SS job in spring training and by the end of May, you’ll hate him more than you hate Cedeno now.
I wouldn’t go in with Pedro as the starter next year next year, but I would have given him more looks towards the end of this year. He’s young at 24, the defense could really play up in the bigs, and the incumbent options (Cedeno, Crosby) were not productive enough to be answers in a Major League role.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 19, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really young ...
He’ll be 25 in a few days.
If he were 21, I think you could make the argument that the bat would come.
But he’s going to be 25 Sept. 25 and has poor hitting statistics in the minors.
He’s really a utility guy, at best.
24 is still pre-peak.
Probably has some more offensive development remaining, though I agree that he still probably doesn’t project as a regular.
Pre-peak
Well, he has five more days of pre-peak.
He may get slightly better as a hitter. But I don’t see him being a dramatic improvement over Diaz.
And I agree. I don’t see how he improves enough to be a starter.
25 is also pre-peak.
So no, he has more than five days of pre-peak time remaining.
And while he’s not aces with the bat, he does look like a semi-capable AAA regular with the bat, which puts him well ahead of Diaz. Diaz hit .248/.302/.285 at AAA this year. That’s just God-awful.
Ciriaco at least has shown a few component offensive skills against upper-level competition: hitting for average and running. He could grow up to be Cesar Izturis, and it wouldn’t be a total shock. That’s not hugely valuable, but it’s still better than what Diaz has to offer.
Pre-peak
You are correct. 25 is still pre-peak. My mistake. But …
Pedro really isn’t a dramatic upgrade over Diaz with the bat.
He has an ops of .660 over six minor league seasons.
In comparison, Diaz has an ops of .663 over six minor league seasons.
And since Diaz is 23, I’d suspect he has much more of a chance of getting better than Pedro. But I think they are both terrible.
Just looking at it from a scouting perspective...
…there’s literally nothing that Diaz does well on offense. He doesn’t hit for average. He has non-existent power (a total of nine extra base hits with Indy this year). He doesn’t draw walks. He has marginal contact skills, which is kind of remarkable given his total lack of power. He’s right around break-even as a base-stealer for his career. There’s just nothing there for him to build on, skill-wise.
Ciriaco’s no great shakes, but he at least looks vaguely like a professional baseball player when he’s up at bat. He can hit .270, he can slap a double if you throw him a mistake pitch, and as a 76% base stealer he’s not going to cost you runs by doing stupid stuff once he gets on. Those are skills. Maybe not great skills, but at least something you can maybe work with.
Vlad
Diaz = minor league ops .663
Pedro = minor league ops .660
As someone who relies so much on statistics, I’m surprised to see you falling back on “a scouting perspective.”
A look at both of their minor league statistics, the best predictor of MLB success, shows both have a bleak MLB future. Maybe a utility job.
Moreover, you can statistically make the argument that DIaz has more upside with the bat because of his age. Maybe that non-existent power surfaces? I think it’s remote. But two years is a long time when you are pre-peak.
I use all the information that I have on hand.
Stats or scouting, knowledge is power. I just tend to rely less on scouting in discussions about players because my opinions about players are subjective, and thus less likely to be persuasive to outside parties (and also because I don’t always trust myself to be accurate in these assessments – I’m not even close to pro standard as an observer).
Unadjusted career numbers are not a particularly good way of looking at either of these players. Diaz’s .754 raw OPS in Venezuela in 2005 has a lot less to do with his expected performance in 2011 and beyond than his .586 raw OPS in AAA in 2010 does, and yet a look at career minor league numbers will treat PA from both seasons as being of equal importance.
Diaz’s decreasing offensive numbers with promotion are relevant because (from a scouting perspective) he looks to be lacking in physical strength, and players with that type of body often aren’t able to muscle up to good fastballs. It’s less of a concern in the lower minors (where Diaz played well), because pitchers do not on average command their stuff as well, but once pitchers start consistently throwing that heavy fastball for strikes more and more often in the higher levels, physically weak hitters are less able to camouflage their problems with those pitches.
Ciriaco’s raw numbers shouldn’t be taken at face value, either, due to some of the park/league environments in which he’s played, but on the whole he seems more promising to me than Diaz does at this point. He has showed some actual skill growth with promotion (better BA, increasing ISO, a higher SB% even though he’s running more often), rather than regression like Diaz. Though as I noted earlier, I’m still not convinced that he’ll be good enough to be more than a role player on the ML level.
Vlad
You just posted a lot of words.
But what I don’t see is this: Any reason to believe Pedro will be more than a mediocre back-up.
Do you really think otherwise? Seriously?
Sickels rated Pedro as a C prospect. In comparison, he gave Diaz a C+ in 2009.
I think that Ciriaco is likely to be a mediocre backup.
Diaz, in contrast, is the kind of guy who gets released from a AAA team. If he was given a roster spot in the majors for a whole year, he’d be one of the worst position players in the league (if not the worst). He would need to show significant improvement in order to project as a mediocre backup.
That’s the point I’m trying to make. Diaz is a sub-replacement-level talent, a sub-Bixler-level talent. He doesn’t belong anywhere near a 25-man roster.
[Sure, once upon a time, Diaz was a C+ prospect. Then he spent the next two years getting the bat knocked out of his hands. If he came up for grading this year, he damn sure wouldn’t get another C+.]
Our only difference ...
is that I think they are both lreally terrible.
As for scouting grades, it’s not like Diaz got that grade five years ago.
The grades were one year apart.
I don’t see anything about Pedro that suggests he could even become Ramon Vazquez.
He probably won't become Vazquez.
Vazquez was, in general, a better hitter and a worse fielder. As I said above, I think Cesar Izturis is a more realistic goal for him, in terms of skill set.
Why does it matter that the grades were only one year apart? Ciriaco has gotten better since then, while Diaz has gotten worse. They’re heading in opposite directions.
Vlad
I’m just giving you a hard time.
I’m not so sure that I see Pedro as moving in the right direction.
In fact, I doubt he’ll be ranked among the Pirates “C” prospects this year.
Also, the RV comparison was sarcastic. He was the worst utility guy who came to the top of my head. You are correct. They don’t share the same skill set.
But I will say that I think the chances of Pedro becoming Cesar Izturis are 1 percent.
Sorry.
I am not always good at recognizing sarcasm, and when I am arguing a point, I sometimes get very very focused, to the point of tunnel vision.
Technically, on the Sickels scale, just about anybody of prospect age with a reasonable chance of making the majors is a “C” prospect, even if he doesn’t assign them a formal grade for the book. I do agree that it’s iffy whether Ciriaco will be in next year’s Sickels book – it probably depends on whether or not he keeps his spot on the 40-man roster until the book goes to the printers.
D Young has to be a lock
His pinch hitting is a lot more valuable than most think.
"It WILL happen."
Bill Mazeroski
June 19th, 2010
I think so too
thats not an easy role to fill and he has come up with a few clutch hits for us this season while being able to play a bunch of different positions, maybe not up to a starters caliber but he can fill the role nicely. I dont understand why everyone hates on him so much
This team is too bad to have the luxury of a designated pinch hitter. He also can’t actually play 2nd or 3rd, and makes a piss poor 4th outfielder. I would rather see more of one of the 4A guys.
by BarryJT on Sep 19, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LaRoche-good-bye
DY-see ’ya
Ledezma-hit the road
Duke-it’s been nice knowing you, but not at $5-6 million for another year.
looks like time's running out
for Duke to put up another 8.2 inning game to save his contract.
by BlindSquirrel on Sep 19, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Karstens... Little or no value?
I respectfully dissagree, with the lack of major league ready pitching, i think karstens is a must keep. long reliever out of the bullpen, spot starting when needed, wichever the case i like karstens in that position. With the freak injuries that happen to pitchers and the pirates luck with pitching injuries, i want karstens around for some depth for the rotation next year. Karstens is a guy that if someone gets hurt or underpreforms, you have someone you can count on for atleast an average 6 innings and a couple of earned runs wich i will take any day with the way this pitching staff preformed as a whole in 2010. KArstens kept us in alotta games he started, and i became some what of a fan of his.
age of last winning season: 5
Well Huntington agrees with you I think...
Just read an article where Huntington stated that Karstens had really shown the Pirates his value this year. I think he will be retained, primarily for threasons you state above.
Karstens seems to be one of those guys who is better than his numbers. He’s not great (probably not even good) but he goes out and competes. I like him. And for the money, I don’t think they could do better.
He’s better than the numbers? That sounds like an excuse for someone with poor numbers.
Brian Burres is just as good and fills the same role for the league minimum instead of $1.5-2 million.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 19, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I just hope that if they non-tender Duke to use his $6M “toward other pitching”, that they don’t just go out and get another guy who costs exactly $6M instead. You really can’t expect to buy a notably better starting pitcher than ZD at 1 year/$6M. The Capps/Dotel exchange from last winter worked out OK but was ultimately a choice between 6 of one or a 1/2 dozen of the other. It’s rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
If they want to take Duke’s money and add $4-5M more to get someone who is actually an upgrade, I would be OK with that.
Yeah I was thinking that...
who knows what they are thinking but if it’s that they feel they can’t get someone better than Duke for the $5-6M Duke is likely to make I’d be surprised.
You’ve also got to factor in the number of roster slots that are going to be needed to protect Rule 5 guys and, also, the guys who are going to be out of options next year. So, it’s not just a question of whether these guys are worth keeping, it’s are they worth more than protecting another prospect or cutting loose someone who has to be on the 25 man come next April.
Andy Laroche
Why are we non-tendering him again?
Would anyone really prefer to have Ramon Vasquez or Bobby Crosby over him?
He plays solid D and still has the potential to be ok with the bat. Those other 2 names are the types of guys who would sign with us as a backup IF. I think we should give Andy his $1m and immediately pencil him in at backup 3B and possible 2B as well.
maybe because his game regresses even more when he doesnt get considerable PT?
i dunno… if i had to bet money, i would say Laroche will be gone next year.
Considerable? How about any?
I forgot he was even on the team. Seriously, when is his last AB? I consider anything after Pedro as nothing, pay no mind to it. Mostly because I can’t remember seeing him play since then. And still… you’d rather pay Ramon Vasquez $2m? ick. I know Andy let a lot people down but that’s just harsh.
I would like to see them hand onto Andy and see if they can sneak him into AAA at th end of spring training like they did to Moss.
by MarkInDallas on Sep 20, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Triple-A is getting more crowded now, though. Ciriaco will be the primary shortstop, according to the Post-Gazette, and last year’s altoona Curve infield of Chase D’Arnaud, Jordy Mercer, Josh Harrison, and Matt Hague should probably see some playing time during the season, as well.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 21, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
BN n FC
They along with NH won’t let Pirates fans down. They will spend money. Yah right. Give me a break. Bums.
by Jake The Snake1 on Sep 21, 2010 12:17 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Quite an argument
You don’t need logic. You don’t need evidence to support your perspective.
Just call them bums. Smooth.
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