Pirates Lose 100th Game
by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 25, 2010 4:31 AM EDT
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PrintEh - I'm not really sure what to say about this. It's been in the works for a long time. There was an interesting conversation here a couple weeks ago about a separate conversation we had last fall, about why it is generally unwise to predict a team will lose 110 games. 110-loss seasons are historically rare, and it's unwise to predict historically rare occurrences without having very good reasons for doing so. As it turns out, while the Bucs won't lose 110 this year, they'll get close.
In fact, the 2010 Pirates will be the worst team in the franchise's 18-year losing streak, and that's saying a ton. I haven't been terribly burned up about it, in part because this team, while obviously very bad, hasn't felt like the worst - so many of those Littlefield-era teams, like 2005, won more games than the 2010 edition will, but were much worse from the perspective of sheer Waiting-for-Godot absurdity and pointlessness. At least the 2010 team saw the debuts of Pedro Alvarez, Jose Tabata and Neil Walker, alongside the first full year from Andrew McCutchen.
What's funny about all this is that, way back in 2007, I mentioned the possibility that the Pirates would lose 110 games in 2010. The idea was that Littlefield's negligence toward the Pirates' future was so brazen that there would be few useful players left at all if he were allowed to continue. After Neal Huntington traded the Pirates' core, much of which would have been eligible for free agency after 2009, I thought it might be time to take a few steps back from the cliff.
Well, maybe not. Charlie Morton, Jeff Clement and Andy LaRoche, three key players from those trades, turned out to be far worse than even replacement level, Brian Burres types of players. Akinori Iwamura and Ryan Church did too. And, although I knew the decline of the Pirates' defense from 2009 to 2010 would be a problem, I may have underestimated how big that problem would be.
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It is hard to know what to say
152 games in, and I still don’t understand exactly how they’ve been this bad. For the past 80+ games, they haven’t been running anyone out there who’s an obvious non-Major Leaguer. Plenty of the pitchers have legit track records, and a couple of the scrubs have been far better than you’d expect. Even the post-trade bullpen has probably cost us no more than a handful of games.
I do wonder if the home/road split is more than the fluke that it seems. Maybe next year’s they’re more like .425 on the road and .475 at home, and the whole thing looks more respectable, even with the same basic personnel.
I would like to see something done to upgrade the IF defense, and am worried that the Snyder experiment is going to hurt us all of next year. But I don’t believe in another 100 losses.
Obvious non-Major Leaguer
Just to explicate that phrase a bit, I don’t mean guys who “wouldn’t start for any other team”*. I mean guys who are below replacement level, or right around it. So no, GFJones hasn’t looked like a Major League starter for the past ~3 months, but he hasn’t looked like Chad Hermansen, either. Cedeno has lapses and an inconsistent bat, but he’s no Abraham Nunez. Etc.
Snyder is probably the closest to that category, but I don’t think he’s been the worst starting C in baseball as a Pirate, even as he’s been pretty disappointing.
- which is a phrase that gets heavily overused around here, usually to mean “isn’t an All-Star.”
The Cedeno resume to this point is actually eerily similar to Abe Nunez.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 25, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
That is really depressing
I mean, I actually liked Nunez – I think he was always a bit underrated, in that he wasn’t good, but he wasn’t actively bad, like a Bix or a 2008 Andy LaRoche. If he could’ve played adequate SS, he would’ve been a marginal starter, but his best glove position was 2B, where his bat decidedly did not play.
And that’s the key difference between Cedeno and Nunez – Cedeno’s a plus defender at the hardest position on the field, with a non-zero bat. Nunez was a no-more-than-adequate defender at any position, with a non-zero bat.
“Plus defender” is a bit of a stretch for Cedeno.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 27, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
We understand and acknowledge your skepticism about PBP fielding metrics.
But the numbers are what they are, y’know?
Waiting for Godot reference...
Me likes. As always, solid write up. I feel more or less the same.
I feel the same.
I’m far more encouraged by the team right now than I was at any point post-… eh, 1997, I’d say. I get that we have a few more rough years ahead, but I really don’t see them being worse than this year. I honestly feel like this was rock bottom in many ways (not to sound overly negative, of course- as I already said, I’m very encouraged by this team).
Everyone on Bucsdugout is pretty optimistic, good attitudes here, NOW
NH HAS TO dump JR – a young team cannot progress with a manager who lacks leadership skills and has such poor in-game management skills. In fact, everything and everyone regressed with JR at the helm, including JR himself. Major gaffs were:
Good players never got a day off until they were injured.
Doumit played catcher way too much in the 2nd half.
Bad management of pitching changes.
Horrible bunt calls by JR with Tabs up and Cutch on 2nd.
The list just goes on and on and on…
PLEASE no more excuses that its the players, the pitching, etc. Leadership matters alot, and this team has a manager weak to no leadership skills. If NH gets a new manager, anybody with a personality, look for Bucs to go .500 next season. If JR stays, look for 90-100 losses again.
This is the most pleased I could imagine myself with a 100+ loss team
A number of real important things happened this year (or were confirmed this year when they were just speculation in 2009):
1. Neil Walker improved and while I don’t think he will continue at this pace I think he can be a league average 2B, which is valuable enough.
2. The trade for McDonald and Lambo was massive. It gives us an MLB ready above average starting pitcher and a decent outfield prospect for a player that had 0 long term value to the Pirates.
3. We have determined that we have two potential CLs that are both relatively young.
4. Many of the 40 man roster decisions were made for us by the on field performance of guys on the bubble. Ex another Jose Bautista 0.0001% fluke we won’t regret letting anyone go.
5. Our minor league system took a significant step forward with another excellent draft.
6. the minor leaguers we already had on the pitching side played very well and took a big step forward. We sustained a number of bad minor league injuries and our system even without the new draft is better than it was at this time last year.
7. The AA team won its championship. While it doesn’t mean it correlates to anything in the MLB, it is better than not winning the AA championship.
8. We signed a major international free agent, something we had not done in years.
9. We have the top pick in the draft and can get any player that we want.
Yes this season was terrible, but the future is so much brighter now than it was on this day one year ago.
100 losses and the future is so much brighter?
Please dude, drink Huntington’s Kool Aid if you wanna, but don’t blow smoke up anybody’s butt that things are “brighter.” IF Russell gets fired, and IF Nutting sells the team, and IF worthless butt-kissers like Coonelly hit the road, THEN things may get brighter for this team. But the moves made by this FO are just like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. We’re still goin’ down, to the tune of 100 losses and 45 games below .500. That sucks, and there’s no two ways about it. Results. If this team had played .500 ball or even .450 ball I would be encouraged, But this teams record is as bad or worse than it was under Littlefield. So just where is this bright future you’re referring to?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!
See my imitiation below as the reason for my laughter. Apparently I covered all the haters and not just BFD. And for the record, If you can’t disagree with someone without calling them a “kool-aid” drinker than be prepared to be labeled a troll and get attacked. If you want to disagree in an intelligent, polite manner your opinions will be respected and people will respond (most people anyway) in a well thought out and intelligent manner.
Notice that there were 23,000 people there last night.
18 bad years in a row, and coming in with 99 losses this year. 23,000 butts in seats.
I don’t care what promotion there was; when the Pirates luck turns, PNC Park is going to be rocking. Neal, Frank, and Bob: please let this happen someday soon.
nutting?
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Sep 25, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Mr. Nutting
We should always show respect for the owner. Maybe if we call him Mr. Nutting, things will turn around.
Mr. Nutting?
Respect? Show me a winner Mr. Nutting, and you’ll earn my respect. Show me a team that isn’t 45 games below .500, that isn’t losing 100+ games, and I’ll show you respect. What should we call Mr. Nutting? A cab to the airport and a one-way ticket outta town. That’s what we need to call “Mr. Nutting.” And take those idiots Huntington, Coonelly, and Russell (the 3 Stooges) with ya’. Jag-offs!
Boy you're dumb.
You’re so filled with hate you couldn’t tell he was being sarcastic could you? You do know what sarcastic means.
I'd like to retract the "Boy you're dumb comment."
I just reread this and realized that the “jag-offs” comment was probably meant for Nutting and not the so-called “Nutting lovers” on this board. Dougalmac, I apologize for that. Guess I’m the dummy this time.
Barring signing a significant FA...
I still see a team that’s very capable of losing 100+ next season (probably not 110 though). Unless the Altoona pitching staff arrives en masse, which isn’t likely before September. With the possible exception of Pearce as a platoon partner at 1B…we have no position players slated to arrive from the minors next season. 2012 is more reasonable for one of the middle infield “prospects” like D’Arnaud…or Lambo. Sanchez is probably late 2012.
Pitching will still be the Achilles’ Heel, at least through mid-season. Our starting rotation in April will probably be along the lines of Maholm, Ohlendorf, McDonald, Morton and Lincoln. That should make anyone nervous. I don’t see the staff as a whole as being as bad as this season…but still expect an above league average ERA.
Offensively, we’ve got half a lineup. I do expect improvement out of Pedro, but any better numbers for Walker or Tabata are either wishful thinking, or in Walker’s case, grounds for a chance at the AS team. Cutch will probably bump his numbers up from this year slightly. We still have issues in RF, 1B (assuming the Pirates are stubborn enough to NOT platoon Jones), C and SS, at least on the offensive side.
Defensively, we have NO significantly above average players in place. Until we have a significant amount of power pitchers, and fewer pitch to contact guys, this will be a major issue.
And keep this in mind…with the exception of a month at the beginning and end of the season for Ohlendorf…and the dueling concussions at 2B for a couple of weeks, this team has been relatively healthy at the “core”.
you can say that again
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Sep 25, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately...
due to operator error…I did.
So, what you're saying is:
Milledge wasn’t part of the core by September.
Amirite?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 25, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Just so I can beat him to the punch...
100 losses, hahahahahah!!!! Who didn’t see this coming? As long as your Uncle Nutball continues to pocket profits and refuses to spend money, his wimpy yes man will lead this organization to another pathetic 100 loss season next year and for another 18 years. Sell the team dirtbag!! And to all you Nutters on this board, keep drinking the kool aid losers and enjoy the fire works and hot dogs!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!
OK, how was my BFD impersonation?
pretty good
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Sep 25, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Right On, Dude!
WE need to start a massive “Nutting Must Sell” movement in Pittsburgh, one that is so obnoxious, so unrelenting, so completely over-the-top that Nutting will get so disgusted he’ll gleefully sell the Pirates and leave town. And take the 3 stooges (Huntington, Coonelly, and Russell) with him. Let’s make Pittsburgh a jag-off free zone. NUTTING MUST SELL!
Avoiding 100 losses in 2011 basically hinges on Alvarez being a run producer in the cleanup role. If he’s this mediocre again, we’ll see a repeat of 2010.
I believe in Pedro as a high-OPS guy (or, in a more traditional view, a clutch RBI man). But there is still room for doubt until he has that big season.
Pedro no doubt needs to have a big year
but lets not forget about the pitching, its not like they don’t have room for improvement also.
"Baseball Joe" article in the Tribune
“Vogel would like to see a Ralph Kiner statue at PNC Park and a hall of fame at the stadium.
The Pirates said they have no immediate plans for either proposal."
That’s because the ownership and the management of this team are a disgrace to the Pirates storied past and should be completely ashamed by how they’ve run one of the greatest franchises in MLB into the ground. The don’t care about honoring the Pirates past because they don’t care about the Pirates. They don’t care how many games the Pirates lose.
Right...
The don’t care about honoring the Pirates past …
I’m sure Maz appreciates the fact that you don’t consider him part of the Pirate’s past.
or the 1960 and 1979 WS teams
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Sep 27, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, it doesn't matter
Because if they do honor an old player, it’s a disgusting, greedy, money-grubbing ploy by Nutting and the Pirates should be ashamed of themselves and if they don’t honor an old player it’s a disgrace and just proves that stupid old money-grubbing Nutting doesn’t care about honoring the Pirates past.
So you’re covered either way.
Not having a Kiner statue at PNC Park would be a much better criticism...
…if there weren’t already, y’know, a Kiner statue at PNC Park:
Now, it’s not a very good statue (in my opinion), but it’s there, in the left field rotunda, and has been since 2003. They had a big ceremony for the dedication with Kiner in attendance, the whole nine yards. As such, it would be kind of weird to give him a second one, when there are lots of prominent guys from the team’s history (Bonds, Parker, Traynor, Vaughan, the Waners, Jake Beckley, etc.) who don’t have any statue at all.
Incidentally
As an architect, I admire a lot about PNC Park, but that photo reveals a major shortcoming: inadequate out-of-sight storage for high-use items. It’s ridiculous to have wheeled trash bins sitting out in a public area, adjacent to a monument for cryin’ aht lahd. They need to have somewhere to go. In general I feel that a bit too much of PNC’s back-of-house operation is actually visible to the front of the house (should I be seeing the soda syrup boxes and lines on my way to the bathrooms? Probably not.
Unclear how much of this is on the architects vs. the client*, but it’s a shame. At some point they’ll refresh the place, and I hope they give some thought at least to this kind of egregious ugliness.
- Not like McClatchy demanded trash bins in the open, but the budget was very tight, and this sort of thing may have been the victim, rather than the architects simply missing it. And rightly so – they got everything else right, and this is a minor, if visible, problem. But it’s good to recall that not only is PNC Park the best ballpark in the country, it was also the cheapest to build. Even its near-contemporaries, like Great America, cost considerably more, and most of them didn’t involve the riverfront engineering PNC did (did you know that they did some underwater welding to get the riverwalk just so?).
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