Pirates Promote A Million Players In September Callups
by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 7, 2010 3:54 AM EDT
Email
PrintThe Pirates have promoted eight players now that Indianapolis' season is over: catcher Jason Jaramillo, shortstop Pedro Ciriaco, outfielders Alex Presley and Brandon Moss, and pitchers Brad Lincoln, Justin Thomas, Brian Bass and Steven Jackson. To clear space for Presley, Moss, Bass and Jackson on the roster, the Bucs also placed Ross Ohlendorf and Jeff Clement on the 60-day disabled list and designated Akinori Iwamura and Erik Kratz for assignment.
On the surface, there's a lot going on here, but these moves amount to much ado about very little. The promotions of all the pitchers are fine; while Bass and Jackson, in particular, aren't exactly stud prospects, the Bucs' pitching staff was a little short and not particularly deep, so they can use these guys to soak up innings. Lincoln pitched badly in Pittsburgh this year and has allowed a bunch of runs in Class AAA since being demoted, but he's also a former first-round draft pick who was already on the 40-man so calling him seems pretty routine. (And anyway, the 3:1 strikeout-to-walk ratio he's posted since his demotion suggests that at least some of the beating he's taken down there recently has probably just been incidental.) Thomas this year at least showed very convincingly that he can get Class AAA hitters out, so I don't have a problem with giving him a few more opportunities this year, even if his stuff isn't spectacular.
As for the hitters: a bunch of people have been talking up Moss' season at Indianapolis, but an .800 OPS from a 26-year-old doesn't impress me much, particularly since he had higher OPSes for Class AAA Pawtucket in both 2007 and 2008. He's interesting enough to not completely give up on, but that's about it. Presley's OPS wasn't much better, but he's two years younger and hit very well for Altoona earlier this year; I'm kind of excited to see him play, but mostly for novelty's sake. It now appears extremely likely that he'll be protected on the 40-man roster this offseason. Jaramillo you already know about, and Pedro Ciriaco can't hit at all and is likely to be as much of a non-factor as Argenis Diaz has been.
It's a shame to see Kratz go - I'm not sure he won't be claimed on waivers, actually, given how well he hit this year in Class AAA.
137 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
everybody can agree that Kratz is a good guy
but anyone who watched his games in Pitt noticed that his swing is way too big and way too slow. he’ll find a job somewhere next season. good luck to him.
Big, slow swing?
Sure. But I don’t know that it makes him any less of a hitter than Jaramillo, he of the career 63 OPS+. It would’ve been nice to have a third catcher who wasn’t out of options.
Ciriaco is supposed to be an actual plus fielder (as opposed to a guy who just has plus fielding tools, like Diaz), so I’m glad to see him get an audition to be the UT IF.
Hard to imagine that they couldn’t have found a better use for Bass’s roster spot than Bass.
“Hard to imagine that they couldn’t have found a better use for Bass’s roster spot than Bass.”
I’m sure they will as soon as Marte, Owens and company need to be added to the 40 man…
by Captain Easychord on Sep 7, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, yeah.
But why waste it until then? Take a look at a guy like Machi or Crotta. Or get a longtime org player like Hamman a pension.
Bass just isn’t a ML-caliber player.
because Jaramillo is a switch hitter; thats why they kept him and not Kratz.
and yes, Kratz has a big slow swing.
So he can't hit from both sides
I guess that’s at least a rationale (on top of the age thing, of course), but I still feel like Kratz was a better option off the bench than JJ, who has played his way out of my heart.
A good chance Neal picks up a new backup C this winter, I think. With Katz (presumably) gone and JJ out of options, it’s only sensible, even if it’s not a priority. If nothing else, another Kratz type is probably knocking around.
someone posted somewhere (I thought it was this thread, but apparently not) that there’s a possibility the Pirates have a handshake agreement with Kratz to come back on a MiL contract. That’s quite plausible, and it may be JJ being given one final shot.
It would surprise....
me if he gets claimed unless just as organizational filler. 31 next year, really looked overmatched in his cameo. Great story, but limited future.
The Hammer Speaks
Twitter: @hammerspeaks
You never know with catchers.
He’s a solid defender with a little power and a full set of options. Sometimes, that’s all it takes.
Kratz could probably stand the other way around...
…and get the bat knocked out of his hands, too.
Switch-hitting only gives you tactical value if you can actually hit a little. Look at Abe Nunez.
Prospects to protect?
Can anyone put up a list of the prospects that would need to be protected on the 40 man prior to the rule 5 draft? I was trying to figure out how many spots they would need to clear. Not that I think it will be a problem, I was just curious. Thanks.
Repostin'.
Must protect, at all costs:
Starling Marte
Jeff Locke
Rudy Owens:
Probably ought to protect:
Diego Moreno
Alex Presley (just rostered)
Danny Moskos
Might get taken if we don’t protect:
Nate Adcock
Kyle McPherson
Tony Watson
Brian Friday
Jared Hughes
Michael Dubee
Eligible, but unlikely to be chosen:
Jim Negrych
Eric Fryer
Mike Crotta
May or may not be eligible:
Eliecer Navarro (depends what day he signed)
by Vlad on Sep 7, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"No Problem"
is not “You’re welcome.”
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 8, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry,
pet peeve.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 8, 2010 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I would be a little concerned that Eric Fryer would be selected. Granted he’s 25 and with Sanchez probably doesn’t have much of a future with the Pirates. And I don’t know much about him beyond his OPS and CS%, but if his receiving skills are decent, then I could see a team carrying him as a back-up given how hard it is to find a decent back-up (as the discussion of Kratz vs. Jaramillo suggests).
Of the might get taken list, Watson is the one that I would worry about coming back to haunt us.
Could be, on Fryer.
A lot of teams are reluctant to take a catcher out of A-ball, though. They don’t trust those guys to handle a ML staff or call a ML game.
Watson has been absolute death on LHB this year. 44 IP, 37/4 K/BB, .130 BAA, only two extra-base hits allowed (both doubles). Probably not sustainable, but still darn cool.
List
It’s a good list. But I don’t see the reason to protect Moskos.
He was terrible at AAA. I really doubt he’ll last on anyone’s roster all year.
But I’m biased against protecting minor league relief pitchers unless they are elite players.
Hard throwing lefty....
reliever with a bit of a pedigree and success in AA. I imagine someone pays $50K to look at him in camp. I’m pretty confident he’d get taken
The Hammer Speaks
Twitter: @hammerspeaks
The pirates wouldn't come out and say this, but...
… they shouldn’t let a team poach their number 4 overall pick from a draft only 3 years ago, either, no matter the circumstances his drafting.
Plus as you mention, as a lefty reliever with decent control, he actually has a good chance of sticking in someones bullpen all year. They should protect him.
Maybe
But based on his AAA numbers, age, minor league statistics, he would not be protected if he weren’t a #4 pick.
I’d leave him unprotected.
I just can’t see too many teams keeping him on the 25-man roster all year.
I could live with Moskos not on the 40 man roster if all of those spots were being used by quality MLB players and prospects but with the Pirates, I think they can find Moskos a spot.
Agreed
I do think that Moskos’ pedigree makes him extra-vulnerable, as other GMs with a NH mindset may see untapped potential (and not just a bad draft pick).
Yeah for sure. There are a lot of teams with bullpen issues and have trouble fielding good bullpens. Even a guy who has struggled in the minors is worth a look, especially with Moskos pedigree. If Moskos is not on the 40 man, he will be taken in the first 10 picks of the rule 5.
I can agree with bernie6 that Moskos probably wouldn’t last on a 25 man roster all year but you never know.
Agree guys
But we are all basing that assessment on him being an early first-round pick.
If you just considered age, minor league statistics and his AAA performance, I think he’d be left off the roster.
If he were a 20th round pick, I think leaving him off would be a no-brainer.
Adcock and Watson
I would protect Adcock and Watson before Moskos. I can’t see DM being buried for an entire year on an ML roster. I doubt I would protect DM. Nothing personal but this year at AAA is likely the end of the line for him w/ the Bucs IMO.
Yinzers uber alles
I don’t see why not to protect Moskos. He still has some minor-league service time left, and his performance at Double-A was stellar. Especially with 15+ expendable guys on the 40 man.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 8, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Adam
I may give him one more year based on the roster decisions.
But if the team has to choose between Adcock and DM, I’d go with Adcock.
I just don’t see the upside.
He’s getting old to be a left-handed bullpen option.
I suspect the Pirates will have room for him. But it’s likely he’s last year unless he does well at AAA this upcoming season.
I’d go with Adcock as well. I just don’t see where they have to choose. Then again I see guys like Burres and McCutchen as definite cuts, which is another debate.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 8, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a lot of guys to add
Granted that there’s fat on the 40 man, but this is 11-15 guys to add – essentially replacing everyone on the 40-man who isn’t on the 25-man. Granted that Park is a goner and Gallagher may be as well, I’m not sure they can make a big dent on the 25-man without cutting guys with some value.
Point being, I could name 5 guys to take off the 40 man without thinking about it; the next 6 will involve some tougher decisions (mostly because it means cutting, say, Burres for Brian Friday, who may never even reach the bigs).
Well, you don't add all of them.
You figure out how many spots you can spare, and hope that the rest won’t get taken (or won’t stick if they do get taken).
I killed eight guys off the roster in comments on a FanPost last week, and didn’t run out of fat before I got there.
Right
But I was eyeballing the might-get-takens, and none of them were obvious non-rosters to me, mostly because they tend to be a bit young. I certainly hate to keep “fat” while letting a young guy who could turn out to be more than that go. Yet, as I said, any guy in AA or below is a crapshoot on ever contributing (even a little) in the bigs at all. Thus, the conundrum.
I will take your 8-10 as a decent estimate of how many we could cut (I assume the first three were Delwyn Young, DY, and Young).
He was on the list, yeah.
I did put him down as a guy to try and trade rather than straight cut, though.
IIRC, my eight were Clement, Diaz, Iwamura, Jaramillo, Young, Burres, and Park. Beyond your feelings for Young, you wouldn’t have missed any of those guys too much, right?
Right now, we’re at 44 on the roster, so we need to kill ten to make room for six, and a couple of my targets are gone. From the remaining guys on the roster, I’d chop Clement, Diaz, Moss, Young, Aguero, Bass, Burres, Karstens, Park, and whichever of our three injured pitchers (Ascanio, Hart, and Veal) has the grimmest current prognosis. The front office presumably isn’t going to drop Moss, because they just added him to the 40-man. So one of the next-most-expendable players (Jaramillo? Martinez? Dan McCutchen? Morton? Gallagher? Thomas? Ledezma? LaRoche? One of the other two rehabbing arms?) would have to go in his stead.
I think the only locks to get cut are Aguero, Bass, Burres, Park and Jackson who you didn’t mention. Karstens, I think is on the bubble but will likely be kept. Jaramillo definitely stays – or if he gets cut, they replace him with another catcher – no way they keep only 2 catchers on the 40-man. I think Ledezma has pitched his way onto the 40-man roster – he’s not getting cut unless he totally blows up over the last few weeks. LaRoche isn’t getting cut either, but they could try to trade him. Pretty much everyone else mentioned is on the bubble and I’d add Pearce to that mix.
Forgot Jackson.
Yeah, cut him. He’s very expendable.
I could see only 2 catchers on the 40-man if they sign a guy they like for a minor-league deal, and hold him at Indy until Doumit or Snyder gets hurt. That assumes that Doumit isn’t dealt, which he might be, of course.
I’d cut any and all of the guys I listed before getting rid of Pearce. He was too good this year, and is too good a fit for our roster.
I don't disagree
about Jaramillo or Pearce. I just don’t see them leaving only 2 catchers on the 40-man. Could/should they? Yes, especially given that Jaramillo’s performance this year was awful. But I just don’t think they will. And it’s not clear how they feel about Pearce. I’d keep him but it wouldn’t surprise me if the Pirates don’t. I think he’s definitely in that “tough decision” group.
It might be easier to look at who seems fairly certain to be on the 40-man roster:
P Zach Duke *
P Joel Hanrahan
P Brad Lincoln
P Jeff Locke
P Paul Maholm
P James McDonald
P Evan Meek
P Bryan Morris
P Daniel Moskos
P Ross Ohlendorf
P Rudy Owens
P Chris Resop
3B Pedro Alvarez
OF/1B John Bowker
SS Ronny Cedeno
C Ryan Doumit
OF Gorkys Hernandez
OF/1B Garrett Jones
OF Starling Marte
OF Andrew McCutchen
OF Lastings Milledge
OF Alex Presley
C Chris Snyder
OF Jose Tabata
2B Neil Walker
I asterisked Duke as there is a remote chance they non-tender him but that is not likely. Also, some may argue a few guys on this list are not guaranteed (Bowker, Moskos, Resop and Pressley are the last 4 I would say). That leaves 15 spots for which there are at least 35 candidates amongst the current 40-man and others who mus be protected or exposed to other teams:
P Ramon Aguero
P Jose Ascanio
P Nate Adcock
P Brian Bass
P Tom Boleska
P Brian Burres
P Michael Crotta
P Michael Dubee
P Sean Gallagher
P Kevin Hart
P Craig Hansen
P Jared Hughes
P Steven Jackson
P Jeff Karstens
P Wilfredo Ledezma
P Jean Machi
P Joe Martinez
P Daniel McCutchen
P Kyle McPherson
P Diego Moreno
P Charlie Morton
P Chan Ho Park
P Justin Thomas
P Donnie Veal
P Tony Watson
P Duke Welker
IF Pedro Ciriaco
3B Jesus Brito
1B Jeff Clement
IF Argenis Diaz
IF Brian Friday
C Eric Fryer
C Jason Jaramillo
IF Andy LaRoche
OF Brandon Moss
IF Jim Negrych
1B-OF Steve Pearce
OF Delwyn Young
Defintely going to be a few tough decisions on the last couple spots.
Really?
There are 25 pitchers on the list fighting for the final 15 spots. Probably only 10-12 of those make it. I see about 10 that can be easily eliminated (Aguero, Bass, Boleska, Burres, Hansen, Jackson, Park, Welker). Actually, that’s less than 10. . After that, given that they may lose some guys who don’t get protected, it’s not real clear who they will put on the 40-man roster. I know some of these guys are longshots, but you mentioned basically everyone else not already on the roster (except Machi) as a possible Rule 5 selection and the only guy currently on the roster that you said would be among the first 8 you’d cut is Karstens (and I’ think there is a good chance he gets kept – Whether that would be a good decision is a different discussion). If you don’t care who you lose, then sure it’s easier. But, I have to think that they are concerned with keeping the best 40-man roster they can while at the same time trying not to lose anyone who could help them in the future. Maybe it comes down to keeping only 1 or 2 of Veal, Hart and Ascanio. You think that is an easy decision? I don’t.
"Possible Rule 5 selection"...
…doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m worried about losing the guy, or that I think he’s particularly likely to be chosen.
You’ve got a lot of kipple on that list. I mean, a guy like Negrych or Brito or Hansen? We’re supposed to find it hard not to put him on the 40-man?
Where did I say that every person on that list would be hard to leave off the 40-man? I’ve made it clear that there are some easy guys to drop off. However, if you drop off the guys who clearly are not going to be added or kept , you still have a list of at least 20 to 25. So Brito and Negrych and Hansen are easy to leave off – no argument with that. But if you polled people here on who should be kept on the 40-man, I’m willing to bet you’d get 50 different names – that alone should tell you the decisions will not be super easy.
And as for the list, it came frome the lists YOU posted along with lists posted at PiratesProspects by WTM of candidates to be placed on or lef off the 40 man roster.
Hey, if you think it's a hard choice, that's fine.
I figured out who I want. I’ve been thinking about it for a while now.
I’d be less surprised if Cedeno was non-tendered than Duke.
The names that stick out as probably keepers on the lower list are:
Pearce, Watson, Friday, Ciriaco, Veal/Hart/Ascanio (good arms if healthy), Morton, Moreno, Karstens (there’s something to be said for not being a disaster), Gallagher, Crotta,and Adcock
3 more? Ledezma and either Machi or Martinez. Other option would be resigning Kratz who is a good signal-caller (my gut says better overall than Snyder, but that’s hard to back up I guess).
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 7, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
No way Cedeno gets non-tendered
unless they trade for a shortstop in the meantime. After Cedeno, there is not another viable shortstop option on the roster and there is no guarantee they could sign a free agent for the price Cedeno gets in arbitration who would be any better.
Even if they acquire another SS
I would keep Cedeno around to be the backup SS/2B. He would be pretty effective in that role.
I could buy a pair of smelly shoes for $2, and that would be the best I could do for that price, but ultimately I could still get a better pair of shoes for a different price (not necessarily $300, mind you).
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 7, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
OK. let's try this another way
Here’s the list of Free Agent Shortstops this offseason. Who on this list is going to priovde an upgrade that the Pirates could and would sign? I don’t see anyone.
Shortstops
Geoff Blum (38) – $1.65MM mutual option
Orlando Cabrera (36) – $4MM mutual option with a $500K-$1MM buyout
Juan Castro (39)
Craig Counsell (40)
Alex Gonzalez (33) – $2.5MM club option
Cristian Guzman (33)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (35)
Omar Infante (29) – $2.5MM club option with a $250K buyout
Cesar Izturis (31)
Derek Jeter (37)
Julio Lugo (35)
Jhonny Peralta (29) – $7MM club option with a $250K buyout
Nick Punto (33) – $5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Edgar Renteria (35) – $10.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Jose Reyes (28) – $11MM club option with a $500K buyout
Miguel Tejada (37)
Juan Uribe (31)
Omar Vizquel (44)
The ones I wouldn’t take are the first three, and probably Izturis and Lugo as well. Counsell and Vizquel might be too old, as well.
Other than that, I’d choose between the other guys that are free agents and trade options where there might be a SS logjam.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 7, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, some of those guys can’t defend at short very well. Still, we should be able to find something superior .290 OBP and average defense (in a career year, too).
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 7, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
That list is really grim
Mostly on an age basis – the few guys who might be worth a FA signing are likely as not to fall off a cliff.
Lord this team needs to draft a good SS.
SS
I’m sure I’m missing someone. But the last hyped Pirate ss that I can remember is Sammy Khalifa.
Abe Nunez is the biggest one.
He spent four years on BA’s top 100 list, peaking at #30 in 2000. Very well-regarded by scouts at the time, though the actual numbers look kind of light in retrospect.
We made high school shortstop and notable bust Mark Farris the 11th overall pick in the 1994 draft (pick #12 – Nomar). The shine wore off of him pretty quickly.
And of course, Chad Hermansen was very well-regarded as a shortstop prospect there for a few years, though he ended up outgrowing the position and moving to CF in ’97.
Vlad
I was thinking about a guy at AAA who was getting high praise, like Escobar in Milwaukee last year.
I had forgotten that Nunez was that highly regarded.
But it is an awful list.
I didn’t include Farris because he was a non-prospect within a few years and Hermansen because he was an OF by the time he got to AAA.
They really have to do a better job with scouting MIs.
Outside of Nunez...
…the guy who came closest to that standard is probably Lou Collier, who was on our BA top 10 list from ‘95-’97, and had a good AAA season as a 23-year-old at Calgary in ’97.
Agreed on the MI thing, though I think the current FO is light years better than the previous one in that respect. Their idea of addressing the position was to over-draft Taber Lee.
I’d keep every pitcher I could within reason, even including Martinez/Karstens/Gallagher and even Morton, to battle for a spot.
The exceptions would be Park, McCutchen, Burres, Bass, and maybe another.
The first priority cuts should be very light-hitting Moss/Clement/LaRoche types. That’s not their plan though, I’d imagine.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 7, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm 100% fine with that list
As you say, it would be nice to get some value from DY – he’s not worthless like Park – but between the roster squeeze and his arbitration eligibility, I can’t see keeping him. Actually, per the Moss discussion going on right now, I think I like Moss more than DY right now, even though I don’t generally like Moss.
Agreed
DY is a nice pinch hitter. But it doesn’t make sense for the Pirates to over pay for that skill.
Moreover, his complete lack of defensive competence makes managing tougher.
I’m not sold on Moss either. But I wouldn’t mind him going to camp to earn a job.
It's almost countertintuitive...
…but I’m actually more comfortable roster-wise with a DY-type who’s never played the infield over the real-world DY, because in the former case at least our manager wouldn’t be tempted to use him at 2B or 3B.
Right now, the Pirates have 44 guys on the 40 man roster due to 4 guys on the 60 day DL. That means they have to get rid of 9 guys just to keep the “Must keep” and “probably ought to keep” guys. I don’t think that will be hard. But that means you’ve got to go even further to keep any of the borderline guys, not to mention the fact that they may need to allow for a spot or two on the roster for free agent signings or rule 5 picks of their own. That’s were it starts getting tougher. I think the decisions on the last few roster spots will not be easy.
ON a separate threadjack
I was listening to the game on the radio yesterday, and it sounded like Burres was getting squeezed (especially in that last inning), but I couldn’t tell if it was outrageously so or just a little at the edges. Anyone who was watching care to offer an opinion?
I was at the game.
He had a couple pitches where he might have gotten squeezed, but there were also a few where he might have gotten away with being an inch or two off the plate.
Strike zone was a little inconsistent pitch-to-pitch, but didn’t really seem unfair to me, as such.
Resop really thought that he was getting squeezed
But honestly I didn’t see anything out of the ordinary other than inconsistency.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Sep 7, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, thanks
As I said, the announcers weren’t too vocal, so I thought it might have just been a pitch here or there, rather than systematic.
Over Winter
The 40 man is finalized over the winter, Presley could still be removed before spring without even getting a look. The Bucs label players and I am sure he is not labeled as a prospect.
If they weren't going to leave him on the 40-man...
…why would they add him now? It’s not like we’re short on guys in search of OF PT for the last month of the season.
Presley
I’m not convinced he’s a prospect, but I do think the Pirates will protect him. It’s not like they have to part with an elite guy to keep him.
Just start removing the fat on the roster. And there is plenty.
40 man
They had to add him to the 40 man to bring him up, they don’t have to protect players yet, when it comes time this off-season to protect players we will see if they keep him on the 40 man. They have some tough decisions to made this off season concerning that 40 man roster.
As I said in my post above...
…there would have been no reason for them to call him up right now if they weren’t going to carry him on the roster over the offseason, insofar as they have lots of other outfielders on the big club and limited playing time to go ’round.
Reward
Huntington said they try to reward players with good performances, that does not mean JR is going to play them. I am convinced that neither Moss or Presley are in their future plans and if they play more than one game up here in Sept. I will be surprised. I think they are more likely to keep Doumit as the everyday right fielder or make some trades and bring in a right fielder with a little pop.
Right now they have at least 6 guys that legitimately can be right fielders on this team and 3 guys that can play center field. I don’t see McCutchen sitting much at all and I don’t see Doumit sitting much.
Strangely enough, of all the players they brought up they only have one guy that can play 1st base besides Jones.
"I am convinced that neither Moss or Presley are in their future plans"
Well, that’s apparent. You haven’t really given us an reason for being so convinced, though.
Presley probably doesn’t project as a starter. Which doesn’t mean that he isn’t in their plans. He can play CF, he can potentially put up a .700-ish OPS, and he’s got a full set of options. Sounds like a quality bench bat to me.
Convinced
The reason I am convinced is that they had a problem with right field the entire season, he is better than anyone they put in right field for the major league team this year, he is a center fielder, so was Tabata, right field should not be a problem for him. I can understand Moss, he failed at the major league level, but does that mean he should never get another shot?
Do you really believe they planned on bringing Walker up to majors when they did? He was going to be a backup too IMO. They struggled with Andy LaRoach and Aki for such a long time when they had talent they did not even realize, just like with Presley and Moss.
It would not have made sense for them to push Presley too aggressively.
Given that this is the first time (in any season, at any level) that he’s been a solid hitter. As such, some measure of skepticism was warranted. Now that he’s done it for a whole year, and shown that it might not have just been a hot streak, he’s getting a look. What’s wrong with that?
I mean, the guy who was getting most of the PT that would have been going to Presley under your scenario is Milledge. Who is only three months older than Presley, and performing acceptably against much tougher competition (in that he was playing in MLB, not AA or AAA).
What is your hurry to rush Presley?
He didn’t show anything until this season when he destroyed AA…he even repeated high A ball twice and was worse the second time around.
Then, when he had a nice season in AA, the organization promoted him to AAA where he hit well. Not great and nothing good enough to earn a call up after only 200 ABs but good enough.
And now he isn’t in the front office’s plans? What single thing can you point to in order to support that? The FO clearly promoted him on a normal developmental curve, in fact they probably promoted him a lot more briskly than I would have done.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Sep 7, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Milledge. Who is only three months older than Presley, and performing acceptably against much tougher competition (in that he was playing in MLB, not AA or AAA).
Milledge is not in their plans either, he can’t play right field, no way to sugar coat that. If he was in their plans he would not be sitting as much as he is. They could have brought Presley up 2 months ago given him a good look, what did they have to lose? Made more sense to me than taking up Milledge’s playing time with Doumit. We know about both of these players, giving Presley a couple of months made sense to me. No one is going to convince me he is going to get more than a token look this fall if ever. JR has a track record of players rusting on the bench unless he likes them. Did Clement play when he came back up?
If you mean they would like to find a better right fielder than Milledge, then yes.
They are desperately trying to find a more valuable right fielder than Milledge, and it’s obvious that they don’t think Milledge should be their everyday right fielder at this point. That doesn’t mean he’s not in their plans, as Vlad pointed out.
Promoting Presley to MLB 2 months ago would have been a ridiculous reckless gamble, plain and simple.
Prospects make their own options with how they perform. It’s easy to push yourself to top prospect status – just perform at a level that warrants it. I guarantee if Tabata or Alvarez had languished in the minors for years with Presley’s numbers, they would be reticent to believe their adjustments were for real as well.
Promoting Presley to MLB 2 months ago would have been a ridiculous reckless gamble, plain and simple.
Why, would it have been a gamble, what was there to lose? they were going to replace Milledge anyway.
Presley still has things to learn in AAA
and promoting players before they are ready can lead to bad performance → loss of self-confidence → going away from the basics that made him successful/pressing too much/trying to do too much → not trusting his own ability → getting into a deeper funk → getting sent down → trying tooooo hard → quitting baseball a year down the road…
it’s good to be as prepared as you can be before you face the toughest test of a baseball career. Obviously, I’m exaggerating above, but it’s not that implausible. He’d essentially had 3 months fo great baseball, learnt all there was to learn in AA, and given the shot to start in AAA, as it should be. He’ll get his looks when he’s ready.
Since when is Milledge not able to play right field?
His defensive numbers are neutral-to-slightly-positive, and have been since we traded for him.
Clement was called up to be a warm body on the bench. He got a non-trivial look at a starting job this spring and totally biffed it, because he can’t recognize breaking balls. As such, he (deservedly) fell out of the team’s plans.
Clement was called up to be a warm body on the bench.
Clement
They got him straightened out in the minors and he did hit the first couple of chances they gave him when he came back up, then they let him sit until rust took over.
Actually he got hurt...
He got a few starts and was hitting better, but it was only in about a dozen ABs. He had plenty of ABs at the begining of the season and didn’t capitalize then. I think you’re over-exaggerating his “rusting away on the bench.”
In fact, although Jim Tracy and Littlefield were well known for this, I can’t think of many examples where, as you say, “JR has a track record of players rusting on the bench unless he likes them.” Care to name any examples?
I was talking about Clement improving after he was sent down to the minors, coming back up and hitting well in the few times he got to hit, then for some reason not playing any more, actually I know the reason. Jones quit playing right field because Doumit was playing there, JR did not want to take Jones out of any games, thus nowhere for Clement to play.
Last year Brandon Moss
What about Moss?
Are you saying that he didn’t get enough of a look last year? That seems like it’d be a pretty tough case to make.
Or are you saying that they played Moss when they should’ve been playing Clement? If that’s it, you have to remember that Clement hurt himself shortly after the trade, and wasn’t in position to be called up.
Moss
I am saying when Moss hit, he usually did not play the next game, JR never gave him a chance to get rhythm going.
Russell likes to schedule rest days in advance.
Lots of managers do, though – it’s not out of the ordinary.
I think Moss struggling last year has less to do with him not getting a rhythm going, and more to do with him just not being all that good.
DK today
Says that Moss returned to his AA batting stance (open, before Boston made him close it), and that the effect was immediate.
Still unclear whether he can be good enough to matter, but it may be more than luck. As I said last week, JBautista has shown pretty clearly that adjustments sometimes do matter (JB citing a specific change made last Sept, which also had immediate effects, and has done so for 6 months).
If he starts hitting...
…I certainly won’t complain.
Moss’s AAA performance this year hasn’t been particularly impressive, though.
The open stance must not have lasted long, because he was back down to .694 in August.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 7, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
And then 1.067 in September
Which is only 6 games, but roll that into August and he’s .747 for the last 35 games of the year, which is ~120 points better than his April was.
He’s a good defender, but isn’t quite a centerfield type IMO. I’m not really convinced Tabata is much of a major league CF, either.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 8, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
No, just serviceable in CF
But as the #3 CF on the roster, that’s fine. I think he only plays in CF in event of an injury. But if his bat translates to MLB, then his ability o play at least some CF makes him more valuable to a team that doesn’t have a #2 CF like Tabata (even granting your skepticism).
They didn't get him straightened out in the minors.
Check out his K/BB at Indy. He didn’t fix his issues with breaking stuff – just spent a few weeks crushing mistake fastballs from AAA pitchers.
Mistake fastballs
You got me there, I did not see the pitches he hit or did not hit and did not hear much about them. I do know that when he came back up he hit pretty good until he was not used any more. Ask Pedro about hitting fastballs, he could have 20 HRs. right now if he was hitting them.
The trick with hitting fastballs...
…is that if you hit enough of them, pitchers start throwing you other stuff instead.
If you check Clement’s Pitch FX record, he sees very few fastballs relative to the average batter, because pitchers have learned that he can’t handle stuff with a wiggle or a pause in it.
Sunday @ 1:00 p.m. cant get here soon enough
HERE WE GO STEELERS, HERE WE GO!!!!!!!!
That's great they called up some guys
Looking at tonites line up, Moss and Presley can watch Doumit teach them how to play RF.
I figure they’ll get the same “wink wink” chance Walker got last Sept.
It’s nice to see a GM who’s really ahead of the game, who does a little forward thinking and plays guys who’s been hot and productive the 2nd half at AAA and to see if his production will carry over to the bigs. Maybe find someone to count on possibly for 2011.
By sitting guys used to playing daily, NH has pretty much doomed them to performances much like Walkers last Sept. These young kids who play daily cant play once a week and be expected to keep their timing ect…they deserve the same shots as G Jones and the others. If he’d had used any common sense last year, the Aki disaster would have never happened.
We have options on Presley, so Moss should be afforded every chance to see if his new stance/approach carries up to the bigs. And when I mean chance, I mean playing most everyday.
NH might be the only guy on the earth who needs to keep watching Doumit and Milledge to see “what they offer”.
Moss has already had the same shot as Jones.
Moss totally biffing that shot is, to be honest, part of what got Jones his shot in the first place.
He may not need to watch Doumit in order to learn how to field, but getting some hitting pointers would probably be a good idea.
The Pirates respond to their pitiful play by "promoting" Charlie Morton and his "great stuff" back up to the big club to pitch BP to the opposition."----bfd
Exactly, what is the point with Doumit and Milledge
Doumit is the fourth-best hitter on the team...
…and they’d like to get his bat into the lineup. There’s also the possibility of rehabbing his trade value somewhat for the offseason.
Milledge is still only 25, and still a better bet than alternatives like Moss or Clement. I’d be OK with giving some of his PT to Bowker, but it’s not like Bowker has exactly lit the league on fire in his ML trials, either.
Milledge’s trial wasn’t exactly worlds apart from Moss’, if we see the latter as a +10 defender.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 7, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I appreciate Doumit more now that Snyder looks worse then him on offense and defense. Also, maybe Doumit felt pushed because of another starting catcher, and upped his game on both ends. Maybe he still isn’t that good but just looks good compared to the guy from Arizona.
Either way, Doumit should get the easy majority of the starting catcher time this and next year, because the bat still does not fit in right field. If he’s going to mess up on defense, at least do it where a better hitter isn’t easier to acquire.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 7, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Milledge couldn't hit 22 HR's in 5 years at indy
He hit none in 130ish AB’s last year. Plus he misplays just about every flyball. That idiotic computer geek rating rewards you as long as it’s not an error, that means Doumit’s a stud out there. Why not try watching a fricken game and try to understand that routine flyballs falling in, balls reaching the wall are BAD defensive plays.
Anyone who can say Milledge is an above average OF’er doesn’t know baseball…..PERIOD!!
As far as a .250’s guy with a HR every 30 AB’s isn’t a MLB caliber player unless he has is a very good fielder or has very good wheels. Doumit is neither.
Moss stunk last year but the hitting coach at AAA switched up his whole stance and approach. He’s hit over .300 since June 1st w/ power, something that those other two couldn’t combine to do. He deserves a shot at starting daily.
It’s addition thru subtraction.
Vlad, go play your computer games but sometime in the future, try watching a game and learn WHAT IS A GOOD FIELDER AND WHAT ISN’T.
aha!
I knew it! The caps words come out, showing your true colours.
by BlindSquirrel on Sep 7, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
"That idiotic computer geek rating rewards you as long as it’s not an error..."
No, it doesn’t. It looks at balls that land (or would have landed, if you hadn’t caught them) in your general vicinity, and then determines how many of them you successfully made plays on. It’s pretty much the opposite of your description.
Milledge makes a lot more plays than casual observation would suggest. He doesn’t always look particularly clueful out there, but looking good is less important than getting the job done, isn’t it?
a .250’s guy with a HR every 30 AB’s isn’t a MLB caliber player unless he has is a very good fielder or has very good wheels
Raul Ibanez, Gordon Beckham, Yunel Escobar, Matt Wieters, Jorge Cantu, and Jason Bartlett will be disappointed to know that they aren’t MLB-caliber players.
[Moss has] hit over .300 since June 1st w/ power…
And he apparently forgot how to hit in August. Guess the hitting coach got bored and wandered off, or something.
And remembered in September
To repeat what I said above, since 2 different people have pointed to his August, if you roll his September into August, he’s .747 for the last 35 games of the year, which is ~120 points better than his April was. Still not awesome for AAA, but he was .964 in July – seasons ebb and flow. As I posted in the Moss thread, his post-stance change MLE is .698 (actually a bit higher since I don’t have his numbers for the first 10 games with the new stance, but he kicked ass in those games, raising his BA 13 points in 10 games). Which is not-awful for a good defensive OF (it’s .025 behind DY, frex, and .015 behind Lastings).
One question I have is whether he can hit off the bench – he needs to be able to do that to be useful. LaRoche would be a handy UT guy, except that he’s apparently utterly incapable of hitting off the bench.
Doumit/Milledge
Neither can play defense, Milledge’s GPS is off somewhat and Doumit is a flyball shag player, most pitchers will catch what he does. Right field is an important field in Major league baseball, not so much in little league. Doumit does not fit in right, that is a fact, he will hit as long as they keep him away from left handed pitching. Millege is on his best days a poor outfielder. We know what each of these two can do, what possible harm could come from Presely and Moss getting a couple of games in?
A "couple games" for Presley is probably a good idea...
…now that he’s earned it by playing well at AA and AAA.
A couple games for Moss maybe costs the team a win or two, since he’s inferior to the guys already in place. Not much of a downside, but since there really isn’t much of an upside, either, it seems kind of pointless.
It’s fine if you think that Milledge is a bad defender, but I’d like an explanation as to why he makes so many plays if that’s really the case. How is UZR being “fooled”?
A win or two?
Come on Vlad, switching Milledge for Nady in a couple games wouldn’t cost us a win or two. I mean, sure, games can turn on a single play or AB, but on average, you’d have to play Moss in a dozen or two games to visibly hurt you wrt Milledge.
UZR ...
is not perfect.
And it’s especially tough to grade a guy like Lastings who takes so many atrocious routes and throws to the wrong base.
He often overcomes it with his speed.
But I think Moss is a better defender than Lastings.
I assume so
At least marginally – certainly the arm is better, although Milledge gets his share of assists. But Milledge probably gains you a bit more at the plate than he gives up in the field. As I say, I think it would take a month of games to see a difference between the two showing up as a win (and really, not even that – that would imply a 6-WAR spread between the two, which is absurd). Unless, of course, Moss gets up here and craps out completely. But if he hits here the way he did in Indy for ~350 ABs, then he’s adequate.
Yeah, maybe a win or two.
That’s, like, the theoretical maximum possible swing that I can see the move producing. Not the median/expected result.
Moss, Pearce and Clement will probably be elsewhere next year and won't figure into the RF/1B situation.
Presley should be in the mix to get some time in Pittsburgh.
Bowker will as well.
Milledge will continue to play sometimes.
If Doumit is still around, he’ll get some games in RF and backing up Snyder at C.
DY will get his handful of starts.
I’m mostly concerned with sorting through this bunch and watching how certain guys develop in the minors with an eye to the best guys we can run out there in ’12.
Do you have an idea for a right-handed bat we could plug right into the team in lieu of Pearce?
Also can’t see Doumit leaving mostly because Chris Snyder has been so awful, not to mention whether we’d improve in RF or not.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 7, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Pearce is a AAAA player coming off another injury and will get caught up in the numbers game.
It’s not like the club can’t replace his 15 games played this year with someone else.
The reason I suggest Doumit being elsewhere is economic, in the Nutting way of thinking.
I think he should stay and be Snyder’s backup, and who knows how much playing time he might get, unfortunately, if Snyder doesn’t swing the stick better next year.
Well, they probably can’t replace Pearce. He isn’t great, but I don’t see a waterfall of major-league ready right-handed bats in the organization. Milledge has been below average, and LaRoche has been abominable at the plate.
I’d give Snyder the rest of the year to show life, then just go with Snyder as the backup and Doumit starter.
“Akinori Snyder” is appropriate from what I’ve seen. I took that nickname from someone else in one of the game threads.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 8, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Bernie
They really seem to like DY at this stage as a pinch hitter and emergency 2B/3B guy.
He’s still cheap.
And since LaRoche looks like toast to me….
Arb-eligible
I have no sense of what a guy like that is worth to an arbitrator, but he’s basically an ML-average bat who can “play” 2-3 positions. Arbitrators are not especially discerning, esp. regarding defense, and I think he could end up with a million-plus salary, which is too much for him, even if you like his bat (which I do). Between the roster crunch and the impending raise, I can’t see keeping him anymore. Which is why I don’t understand why he’s getting starts at this stage of the season. We want Bowkers, Pressley, and Moss!
Young is just not an ML-average bat. He’s got an OPS+ of 90. Neither is Milledge. Eric Hinkse is.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 8, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
wRC+ of 95
is what I was looking at, which is close enough for me (the “basically” I threw in there was meant to indicate “approximately”). Furthermore, he’s a career 101 OPS+ as a PH, which is a good number to see from a guy who’ll get 50% of his PAs as a PH.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bucs Dugout
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Have you criticized Hanley Ramirez on Twitter? Your name may be on his bat!
- U.S. senator cries foul over Nationals plans to take back park from Phillies fans
- Photo: Comerica Park readies itself for Hockeytown
- Podcast: Dirk Hayhurst talks about Italy, the reality of the big leagues and his new book
- Dennis ‘Oil Can’ Boyd claims he used cocaine before a majority of his games
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
