Pirates Will Continue To Look For Relievers
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jan 6, 2011 4:24 AM EST
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PrintThis is actually a pretty interesting and fairly revealing chat with Frank Coonelly over at MLB.com. A lot of the answers are probably things that are pretty clear to us, but I'll take that, given that a lot of what has happened this offseason hasn't made a whole lot of sense to me at all. Among the highlights:
-P- The Pirates sound pretty satisfied with their rotation options at this point, and it also sounds like they will be open to moving guys like Bryan Morris, Rudy Owens, Jeff Locke and Justin Wilson into the rotation as the year goes on. Coonelly says that the Pirates will get most of their improvement not from Kevin Correia and Scott Olsen, but from guys who were already in the organization before this offseason.
-P- The Bucs will look for more relievers this offseason. Coonelly does mention Dan Moskos, Diego Moreno and Tony Watson as possible internal candidates for bullpen jobs. (Of those, Moreno is the most talented, but Moskos and Watson are lefties, which the Pirates really need right now. Of the two, I'd rather see Watson, who I think could probably be a pretty good lefty one-out guy right away. Moskos' awful stint in AAA last year, and his whole career in general, scare me.)
-P- Jameson Taillon looks pretty likely to start the year at West Virginia (which makes sense - if he needs to start at State College, something is wrong).
-P- The Pirates will probably try to lock up Andrew McCutchen and Pedro Alvarez to long-term deals, at least at some point down the road.
-P- The Bucs are not interested in Jack Wilson.
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The Bucs are not interested in Jack Wilson.
I asked why they didn’t try to bring back Kiki Cuyler, but he didn’t answer my question.
the pysch ward
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its too bad that NHL is taken because the National Football League has become the National Hypocrite League" Mark Schlereth
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Jan 6, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
They sound happy about their rotation possibilities?? They swapped out Correia for Duke from a group of starters that had a 5.28 ERA…the worst in the league. If they are happy about their possibilities, then maybe we should start sampling what they are drinking.
well, lets look at it deeper than the 5.28 era
they have mcdonald and ohlendorf, who both can be better than average, and they also have maholm whom can pitch much better than he did in 2010. correia has pitched better than Duke has and for about the same price. morton was pitching better, owens and another altoona guy should show their heads soon… i think it actually does look better than it did before. people can harp about the defense all the want, and they do have a point, but im a believer that if the pitching is better so shall be the team. is it great? no… but it can be much much worse.
Morton, Lincoln are a lost cause as starters
I agree we look better now than we did last year, but that is damining with faint praise. I think Morton has received twice the number of shots at success than he would have anywhere else. The fact that his tools keep being brought up makes me concerned that the present talent evaluators in our system have some of the same flaws as the last set of guys.
I don’t see the tools. Fastball around 92-93, side to side movement and breaking pitches that don’t get swings and misses because Morton doesn’t have the command. Plain and simple his tools aren’t enough to overcome his inability to learn how to pitch. If he threw 96, maybe but he doesn’t. All the batters have to do is lay off the breaking stuff and tag the fastballs. Morton doesn’t throw hard enough or with enough confidence to go inside and he will continue to be unsuccessful as a starter. We should be looking to convert him to relief.
Also Brad lincoln will be the next converted to relief when Morris or Owens join the team as starters. he doesn’t have enough to work 6-7 innings as a starter. Give him one more chance and then lets turn him into middle relief while we still control him cheaply.
You could be right about Lincoln
But he’s supposed to have a very good curve. Further, he put up a FIP of 2.96 in AA, then 3.85 and 3.65 in AAA. So giving him another chance—if he wins the fifth spot—would seem to be the right answer.
Viva Clemente!
ummmm, Lincoln had less than a dozen starts, and already hes sh*t?
and if morton is going to get hit as a starter, what makes you think he wont get hit as a reliever?
I don't have a lot of hope for Lincoln
I was never excited about him last year from watching his AAA starts. However, if he ever learns to throw his curve ball for strikes, it could be a much different story.
With Morton, it’s all a question of his head. I still hold out hope that he can get that together.
by MarkInDallas on Jan 6, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
I agree, Lincoln must learn how to command his nasty hook. It’s even more important considering his fastball got slammed last year (-14.3 pitch value). However, I want to have hope for Lincoln (deliberately worded as such)…
Lincoln's fast ball is too straight
but that problem is amplified because hitters can just key on that and lay off any breaking stuff. If he could keep hitters off balance by throwing the curve where he wants it, his fastball has enough velocity so that hitters will not be able to square it up very often.
Are you serious?
Morton has 251 IP at the MLB level.
His numbers were inflated by atrocious Pirate defense.
How many SP had a horrible year or two and went on to be successful pitchers? Probably most of them? It’s too early to think he’s garbage.
And give up on Lincoln after 9 starts last year?
i feel the same way, bernie
9 starts and hes crap??? lots of people expect players to be perfect. lincoln has pitched his way back from tommy john and has not been bad in the minor leagues. he was facing MAJOR LEAGUE hitters for the first time and he got rung up. it happens.
As i Recall
Greg maddux struggled in his first couple of years as a starter in the big leagues, then finally got it together and now he’s probably close to hall of fame type pitcher?
And then there are the billion other pitchers who struggled and were horrible their whole careers. Seems to happen more often
Umm, the point being made here is that Lincoln struggling in his first few starts isn’t grounds to write him off as a lost cause. Nobody is saying he’s guaranteed to turn into Greg Maddux.
by WTM on Jan 6, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Lincoln was pitching well at AAA prior to the dreaded Kerrigan adjustment
He was hitting 94-95 at Indy prior to call up…and while his fastball is straight as an arrow…his command was supposedly a strength. I know watching him pitch, FB’s were waist high and not too many corners…plus they were low 90’s…and his curve was all over the place…change up? If you aren’t commanding your FB, you’re change up is going to get beat up…and that was waist high too.
All said…he’s struggled after every promotion since being drafted a bucco…he then puts it together…I expect him to be a competitient starter…a 4 or so IMO.
Morton on the other hand…someone mentioned it earlier…he throws a 2 seamer that doesn’t sink…only side to side…aka R Vogelsong like…I dont like his chances of succeeding at all as a SP…and he never has that 1 run inning, it’s always multitudes of runs…he cant pitch from the stretch very well.
Morton has a few good games when his command is pinpoint and he gets that off speed close or at the knees…not bouncing on the plate or hanging waist high…I really dont see great stuff out of him, a 92 MPH 2 seemer that doesn’t sink will get drilled more often than not…he might be better going 4 seemer and reaching that 95ish area.
morton did show improvement, however
and is a much better option than dcutch, burres, karstens and even olsen. i think lincoln will be in Indy to start the season but if he pitches well there he will get another shot in the show.
I saw Lincoln in the minors only prior to AAA, but I thought his command of his curve was very good. Not that I would really know . . . . .
by WTM on Jan 6, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
Morton
He was reasonably effective after coming from the Braves.
I agree he has adjustments to make. But I can still see him being a useful pitcher.
As for Lincoln, I could see a #3 pitcher if he develops secondary pitches. But he’s probably a #4 or #5.
If the secondary pitches don’t come, he’ll be a reliable RP.
I was encouraged by this
the one thing we did not want to do is to block the talented young starters who led the Altoona Curve to the Eastern League championship last year, such as Rudy Owens, Bryan Morris, Justin Wilson and Jeff Locke.
To be competitive one or more of these guys is going to need to step forward this year or next.
Viva Clemente!
We did try to add Jorge De La Rosa. If we had added him and McDonald kept up good work, that would have left only 3 spots in the Bucs’ future rotation for Ohlendorf, Karstens, Morton, Lincoln, Owens, Morris, Locke, and Wilson.
In the current situation, we’ve left 4 slots up for grabs by year’s end, if Mcdonald can maintain his grip on a starting role.
by Adam Reynolds on Jan 6, 2011 11:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
It means so if they’re making north of $10MM per year. If he’s making $3MM per, like Correia, that’s a different story.
by Adam Reynolds on Jan 6, 2011 12:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It’s still hard to trade them, because there are plenty of teams who can’t take on a lot of salary at any given time.
by Adam Reynolds on Jan 6, 2011 1:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
There are many players who are traded in their last contract year and then sign an extension at market rates with their new club. Jack, Freddy, etc.
When you trade someone mid season, the new club only needs to take on a small portion of the salary. If traded in the off season, obviously the receiving team has a hole and would be willing to pay market rates.
I still have hope for Morton and Lincoln
Morton’s average fastball velocity has been steadily climbing the past three seasons (from averaging 90.7 in 2008 to 92.9 in 2010) and his innings pitched per season hasn’t dropped enough to explain that it was due to him being fresh. FWIW, Bill James projects him with a 4.50 ERA next year. Also, his KK/B in 2010 was 2.27 compared to 1.55 in 2009. His problem was he put up a career high .369 BABIP and a career low 53.2% LOB. He could never get the clutch out, but as much as it hurts to sound like a broken record, he has the stuff.
Lincoln’s problem was he saw his strikeouts per 9 from AAA to the majors nearly get cut in half, which is to be expected when dealing with major league hitters. Unfortunately, they don’t have is AAA pitch types, but I bet his pitches were different than what he was throwing in AAA because HE CAME OUT AND SAID THE PITCHING COACH WAS SCREWING WITH HIS PITCHING AS SOON AS HE GOT HERE
by ATribeCalledGreg on Jan 6, 2011 10:35 AM EST reply actions
but dack says Morton doesnt have the stuff
morton also pitched better once kerrigan left and snyder became his caddy.
Don't forget the atrocious Buc D ...
for the BABIP.
92.9 is very good avg. velocity for a starter. People have some unrealistic notions about “96 mph fastballs” and the like. Ubaldo Jiminez’ avg. of 96.2 in 2010 was the fastest for a starting pitcher since velocity started being tracked. Among starters with 100+ IP in 2010, fangraphs lists only two (Ubaldo & Verlander) who averaged 95+ and only seven at 94+. Morton’s 92.9 would have ranked 23rd. (PitchFX, which is probably more accurate, actually had him averaging 93.2. By the end of the season, Morton was topping out around 96.)
big difference in "final velocity"
between a 92 MPH 2 seamer (which slowdown markedly as it reaches the plate…via the seams cross currents that cause the movement) and a 95 MPH 4 seamer (which carries its velocity thru out the whole distance)
Nothing wrong w/ 2 seamers except his doesn’t sink…which is the most important movement needed.
That’s why some guys who throw 95 blow it by guys…and some dont…not all fastballs are the same. Most those gun readings are closer to middle and not near the plate.
I agree some mid 90’s MPH FB’s dont get by the batter…and that again is partly due to final velocity…as well hiding the ball ect…I’ll never forget Bill Landrum scubbing the 2 seamer and going 4 seamer…it saved his career for a few seasons and made him some $$$
That’s why I’d almost rather see Morton go 4 seamer and be able to get it by batters…his 2 seamer isn’t great stuff IMO.
the Power's rotation for the first few months of the season should be good.
I plan on going to a few games.
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its too bad that NHL is taken because the National Football League has become the National Hypocrite League" Mark Schlereth
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
Allie?
will he skip State College and go straight to Charleston
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its too bad that NHL is taken because the National Football League has become the National Hypocrite League" Mark Schlereth
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Jan 6, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
not sure Allie will start in WV-
that’ll happen only if he shows outstanding stuff in camp. Even then, I expect he’ll join WV a bit late, if at all.
I expect (at some point) WV will have Cain, ZVR, Taillon, Waldron and Fuesser.
just my opinion
i could see pounders piggy backing starts in WV… esp Taillon would be on a strict inning count…
I could see Stevenson staying in SC to start the year….
you both make good points
taillion’s innings will be watched, but shouldnt the other guys have their arms stretched out this year?
Should have told me
i would have just copied the whole interview over, he answered a few of my questions
oh nevermind
i didnt know the entire Q & A was up on the Pirates homepage….first time i got involved with it…
"Jameson Taillon looks pretty likely to start the year at West Virginia...."
This might make for a Bucs Dugout Gathering for those in the local area.
If he’s sent to Charleston and I’m still in the area, I know I’ll go.
So...
he goes from HS to a full season team. He pitched 63 innings in HS last year. Don’t know how much summer ball he may or may not have played. Assuming for a moment that he didn’t have much pitching work after high school ended, one probably wouldn’t expect him to pitch much more than 100 innings. Looks like maybe 20 to 25 starts…4 or 5 innings at a crack.
Sound reasonable, Vlad??
not Vlad, but i doubt he'd go more than 4
also, they seem to piggyback starters in WV quite often, so 4 seems an upper limit…
80-100 IP seems reasonable
agreed
plus power pitchers usually throw more pitches during a game because of the many missed bats. i wouldnt be surprised to see Taillion throw a few 3-4 inning games because of this.
Pirates are out on Fuentes
Rob B is saying Fuentes’ price is going to be too high for the Pirates. He also is still looking for a chance to close.
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