Pirates Should Take Garrett Jones, Jose Veras, Chris Resop, Jason Grilli To Arbitration
This article on MLB Trade Rumors isn't new, but I just saw it. The noteworthy part, for our purposes, is Tim Dierkes' estimations of what each arbitration-eligible player will cost.
Garrett Jones, RF: $2.4MM
Charlie Morton, SP: $2.1MM
Chris Resop, RP: $1.1MM
Evan Meek, RP: $900K
Brandon Wood, UT IF: $700K (non-tender candidate)
Steve Pearce, UT IF/OF: $600K (non-tender candidate)
Joel Hanrahan, RP: $4MM
Jeff Karstens, SP: $2.8MM
Ross Ohlendorf, SP: $2.1MM (non-tender candidate)
Jose Veras, RP: $1.5MM
Jason Grilli, RP: $800K
Of these, the controversial ones appear to be Jones, Resop, Veras and Grilli. I don't think many people are opposed to offering arbitration to Morton, Meek, Hanrahan or Karstens, and I don't think anyone's actually all that concerned about the three "non-tender candidates" - Wood, Pearce and Ohlendorf.
Not that any of this is new information, really, but the quartet of controversial players will cost practically nothing - about $7 million or less in total. I've never been a huge Jones fan, and I think that, in an ideal world, he'd be a 300-plate appearance bench player, but as a legitimate big-league bat and an insurance policy in case things go wrong at first or in the outfield, he's worth the $2.4 million. (If you'd told me three years ago that I would one day describe Garrett Jones as "a legitimate big-league bat," I would have been very, very surprised.)
Veras was only a half a win better than replacement last year, and he'll probably never have the sort of control necessary to really get beyond that. But he's not a bad pitcher now, and if he ever does figure things out and cut his walks - and that's not totally out of the realm of possibility, given his stuff and the fact that relievers often follow weird career paths - he'll be a monster. For $1.5 million, I would take that chance.
With Resop, it's a similar story. He was frustrating last year, but he struck out 10.21 batters per nine innings and probably gave up more home runs than he really should have, based on the number of fly balls he allowed. He's already a decent reliever who has a chance to be better than that.
Personally, I'm not going to worry too much if the Pirates don't tender Grilli, but again, the strikeout rate is excellent, and the cost is very low.
These are decent players. Frustrating ones, maybe, but they're competent. The key reason why the Pirates' wouldn't take these relievers to arbitration is because they believe they can find good relievers even more cheaply.
Well, sometimes they can, and sometimes they can't. Their 2009 bullpen was among the worst in baseball. Their 2008 'pen was even worse. (Hey, remember Tyler Yates?) Neal Huntington has done a decent job building reasonable, cheap bullpens the past two years, but he doesn't have a magical ability to pull good relievers out of thin air.
And even when it seems like he does, the players he picks aren't much cheaper than the ones he'd be getting in arbitration this year. In 2010, Octavio Dotel cost $3.25 million (or would have if he'd stayed with the team the whole year), D.J. Carrasco cost about $1 million, and Javier Lopez cost $775,000. Brendan Donnelly would have cost $1.35 million for the whole year, and Jack Taschner $835,000. (Thanks to Cot's Contracts.) The numbers the Pirates would have to pay Veras, Resop and Grilli are similar.
True, the Pirates didn't end up having to pay all that money, since none of those players lasted the whole season. But it's worth pointing out that arbitration salaries aren't guaranteed either, or at least they don't become guaranteed until a certain point in March (if memory serves - I can't find documentation to back this up, so please correct me if I'm wrong). So the Pirates could cut someone like Grilli in Spring Training and only pay a small portion of his arbitration salary. Therefore, there's no reason why Huntington can't tender these guys and do his usual dumpster-diving thing, then let everyone battle it out in camp.
Tendering Veras and Resop therefore seems like a pretty easy call to me. I could go either way on Grilli, but ultimately I'd probably tender him too. I think Jones seems like an easy choice as well, given how ghastly first base or right field would suddenly start to look if someone flamed out or got hurt, or if the Pirates couldn't attract a better first-base option to begin with.
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I'm pretty sure jones can't play third
And I would not take veras or grilli to arbitration. I might take resop, though.
by buccobat on Oct 21, 2011 4:37 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Thanks for the catch. I meant in the outfield, obviously.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Oct 21, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree with Charlie
I’d actually prefer not to see Veras, Grilli and Resop all in the bullpen come opening day. They’re pretty similar pitchers—power RHRPs who strike guys out, but give up more baserunners (walks or hits, depending on which you’re talking about) than you’d see with a real shutdown sort of reliever. The team needs a dominant 8th inning guy. Hopefully that’s Meek, but he’s not a safe bet right now. They also need more from the left side. Help could come from the farm (Justin Wilson, maybe, since he was reportedly hitting 99 in relief, or Hughes, or a couple other guys), and they’ll no doubt want to bring somebody in on the cheap this winter. And Leroux may have a higher ceiling than any of them, although I’m far from sold on him. And McCutchen figures to be in there as a long reliever. So I figure, in an ideal world, there won’t be room for all three of these guys. The thing is, there’s no real downside to retaining all three because there’s so little money at stake. They can almost certainly move somebody at the end of spring training, so I’d just as soon take all these guys to camp and see how it shakes out.
If I was going to non-tender one of these guys, it’d be Grilli. He has a lengthy track record and has seldom pitched well in the majors. His time with the Bucs was a small sample size.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Yep
Thing is, all of the 3 relievers are legit options – that is, guys that a team would be interested in taking a look at. As such, I figure that even if we end up releasing 1 or 2, we won’t be on the hook for their salaries, because someone will be thin in the bullpen late in the spring and pick them up. They’re not guys like, say, Delwyn Young that feel like options for us but won’t catch on anywhere if they don’t make our roster (Grilli is close to this, but I’d be pretty surprised if no one tok a flyer on him, given his SSS performance last year).
Oh, and GFJ is a no-brainer. I don’t see why his name keeps coming up.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
We can expect Neal to use the term “internal value” at least once in a public interview, when it comes to our arbitration eligible players. Probably with respect to whomever he doesn’t offer arbitration to.
Only if Meek pitches at his best
Assuming modest regression from the others (although arguably Resop and/or Veras ended up near their true talent levels), a near-closer performance from Meek could compensate.
But yeah, most likely the bullpen is a notch worse in 2012, although I don’t think collapse is imminent.
In the non-news department, the decision to downgrade at catcher to the sub-replacement level is now official.
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You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
As frustrating as it is to see Ohlendorf continue to get hurt and as poorly as he pitched when he came back from injury in 2011, I still think we should try to retain him. When healthy, he’s a pretty solid starter. I realize, “When healthy,” is a pretty big qualifier with him.
-The team has already declined the option on Maholm
-Morton is going to be out for an undetermined period of time and we’re still not sure whether or not he’s for real even when he does come back
-Karstens could go either way
-Jeff Locke was not at all impressive in his few starts
-Correia is probably better suited as a long man in the pen
-Lincoln is a huge question mark
-The potential garbage that NH is going to sign or have as NRIs in spring training are probably all terrible fallback plans
When Ohlendorf came back from his injury in 2010, he was terrible at first but he ended up putting up some solid numbers by the end of the year. There’s a possibility that would have happened with him again in 2011 had he had more time, but the season ended.
I’d give him one more year. If he can stay healthy and pitches well, bring him back again for 2013. If he’s hurt for the majority of 2012, or picthes poorly then that’s the end of Ohlendorf as a Pirate.
They could not offer him arbitration but
instead a contract of, say, $750K. Wouldn’t that be trying or is it absolutely clear that Ohly will be a hot commodity on the FA market if we make the silly error of declining to offer him arbtration?
by WestCoastBuc on Oct 21, 2011 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
You'll try Neal? Try?
A child tries; a man accomplishes.
by WestCoastBuc on Oct 22, 2011 5:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Ohlie would make a nice insurance option
tender him, then go through the offseason like he isn’t there. That lets us see how Morton’s recovery, the FA and trade market, and Karstens and Ohlie’s offseason all play out before making a final decision.
As much as I'd like to agree
I think it is time to move on from Ohlie.
As Vince Lombardi once said “Son, you have all the ability in the world but one. AVAILability”
After awhile, you get tired of a player being on the DL all the time.
You can kiss it goodbye!!
Jones
If that so-called manager would tell the hitting coach to stay the hell away from Jones he would hit 25-30 home runs and he can field as good as anyone the Pirates have. Someone really screwed him up last spring and it took him until the last month of the season to start hitting like he can. He should have been the regular first baseman last year but some a-hole got underbay and left him screw everything up. Hell I thought we were supposed to have a real manager last year!!!!!!
Remember folks
giving just a few pennies a day can help prevent your child from ending up like this.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
Can't understand thinking about bringing Veras back...
basically Charlie’s argument is that Veras is okay (half-win WAR), but could really take off??
Couldn’t you say the same for about 75 other relievers out there that could be had for half the cost?
If you’re going to spend 1.5 million to roll the dice that Veras could suddenly explode (wouldn’t he also have the same chance of completely collapsing, as he does of suddenly becoming dominant), why not spend 750k on 2 different guys similar to Veras and double the chances that one of them breaks out.
The only reason I would say to retain Veras would be because the Pirates are afraid of not spending enough money in the public (a.k.a. MLB Office’s) eye.
uhh do 75 other pitchers throw 95 with one of the best curveballs in the biz? No? Well alright then…
I'm with "E" and Angus
He goes for stretches when he is ‘lights out’.
When he stinks, he really stinks, but………….
You can kiss it goodbye!!
theres only been 1 perfect relief pitcher in the history of baseball
and even he is now a setup guy for the phillies… just sayin
We get two pitchers for the price of one...
Good Veras and Bad Veras.
by Thunder on Oct 24, 2011 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bring back
Grilli, Jones and Veras.
If Resop wants to sign a minor league contract, then ‘make it so’.
You can kiss it goodbye!!
Agreed
I would definitely keep all four, and flip as many as possible at the deadline.
Good post.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Oct 22, 2011 9:19 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
one of the reasons to not keep a guy like Veras
while replacing him with a guy like Dotel (even though the latter is more expensive) is with an eye at the trade deadline. If they both have so-so years, Dotel is almost certainly more valuable than Veras due to the way FOs seem to value experience.
I totally agree that some of the prices in which these players are paid is quite steep, and if a person like Veras does in fact mess up, it is going to be on their dime; is it worth millions?
Halloween World
by christopoulosgeorge on Oct 22, 2011 11:33 PM EDT reply actions

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