Pirates Minor-League System Still Not Thriving After Years Of Lavish Spending
by Charlie Wilmoth on Oct 4, 2011 12:27 AM EDT
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PrintSo this is how the Pirates figure so far in Baseball America's Top 20 Prospects lists:
Gulf Coast League
3. Luis Heredia
5. Jose Osuna
14. Alen Hanson
New York-Penn League
9. Nick Kingham
11. Alex Dickerson
South Atlantic League
4. Jameson Taillon
Florida State League
Nobody
The Eastern League and International League lists haven't come out yet, but we can safely guess that Starling Marte will come in near the top of the Eastern League list. Beyond that, I'm not sure the Eastern League list will include any other Pirates - Kyle McPherson might make it, and Jordy Mercer might. I don't think any of their pitchers will. I'm not sure who will represent the Pirates on the Class AAA list, either - maybe Alex Presley?
By my count, there are 16 leagues in the U.S. minor league system. That means there will be 320 players on these lists, or about 11 per team. The Pirates so far are represented by six players. Marte will definitely make it, and maybe one or two more will as well.
(UPDATE: Azibuck points out in the comments that, essentially, some of the leagues the Pirates play in have more teams than some other leagues that they don't play in, so the benchmark for an average number of players on these lists might be a bit below 11 for the Pirates and a bit higher for some other team. It doesn't change my argument a whole lot, but it's a fair point.)
I'm not yet sure what conclusions to draw from all this, but look ... this isn't good, folks. There are good things here, like the three Pirates prospects from the Gulf Coast League, particularly given Jose Osuna's surprisingly high ranking. But the Pirates have now had several years to build a killer farm system, and they haven't done it. Over the past four years, the Pirates have spent more on the draft than any other team. (Although it's true that these lists don't include any of their 2011 draftees except Dickerson, but even before 2011, the Pirates spent three years among the top-spending teams in the draft.) They've also spent more than before in Latin America. They've also traded many of their major-league players for minor-leaguers, including many minor-leaguers who spent most of this season in the minors.
Neal Huntington had very little to work with in the minors when he arrived. But at this point, that's no longer an excuse. The Pirates have invested in the minor leagues in every possible way in the past four years. They should be killing it. They'll be in pretty good shape in the farm system rankings this offseason after picking first overall in the 2011 draft and signing Josh Bell, and good for them for doing so. But at this point, we should be seeing a lot more. The farm system currently has a lot of interesting players, but not a lot of good ones.
I hesitate to say that Huntington or his scouting team or his development team aren't doing a good job. I think the role of variance is usually underestimated in these kinds of assessments. If three or four more prospects had had really good 2011 seasons, then I don't think any of us would think there was a problem. (Heck, maybe there will be a bunch of breakouts at Bradenton and West Virginia next year, and then there really won't be a problem.) And though I think the Pirates' quantity-over-quality strategy in the 2009 draft was probably ultimately flawed, and that they should focus more on acquiring hitting talent, I think their general strategy of player acquisition is pretty reasonable. But it's not clear that it has worked so far.
In a decade, whether most fans realize it or not, Huntington will have made his most lasting impact on the franchise through the players he drafted and those he signed out of Latin America. In comparison, all the yammering about his trades and his choices so far at the major-league level is just noise. He needs to get this right. And at this point, I'm not 100 percent confident that he's doing so.
UPDATE: Just to be clear, I'm not judging the Pirates' system purely on what Baseball America thinks about it. I expressed concern about the lack of breakout performances in the Pirates' system two months ago.
UPDATE 12:27 PM: Starling Marte is No. 7 and Kyle McPherson No. 20 in the Eastern League.
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This is one publication’s take on according to your count 16? leagues. I think looking at these lists and saying the Pirates don’t have a “killer” farm system may be over analyzing things. With the addition of Cole and Bell we will have a much improved ranking in this same publication’s farm system rankings compared to last year. Now maybe the Pirates farm system should be better at this point under Huntington, but looking at theses lists to judge that is off base in my opinion.
I’m not judging purely from these lists. I said the same thing two months ago.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Oct 4, 2011 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok yeah I never saw that post, I guess I just don’t think it’s panic mode or anything yet. Sanchez, Morris, Wilson, Von Rosenberg and Owens could recover. Allie, Cole, could break out. Grossman, McPherson, Cunningham, and Mercer could all continue playing well. Or everbody could fall off a cliff, but this could happen in any system.
Perhaps this
would be a good reason why there shouldn’t be a slot signing money? because the Pirate draft system shows that it hasn’t worked out reasonably well despite the money?
My question is …..as far as scouting/drafting internally goes…
how is it that Atlanta, Tampa Bay can get some real finds/gems in the draft while we struggle with it and Tampa/Atlanta perenially draft lower? Should we start to raid the scouts in those teams organizations lol?
Yes, the scouting must improve...
I’m am in favor of raiding scouts from successful teams.
but but
Still the best pirates in the org. are littlefield guys cutch and walker and he had no money to spend, at least everyone got promoted .I guess we can start the pick the date of the 82 an 90 loss contest and maybe triple figures for next year.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
and he had no money to spend
That’s nonsense. Littlefield could’ve devoted more of his budget to the draft, if he wanted. He chose not to do so, because he’s a moron, and he preferred to blow it on mediocre veteran free agents.
Serious question
NH always says the two budgets (MLB payroll and amateur draft) are unrelated. Who decides the relative sizes of those budgets? I mean, I presume that any GM worth his business cards will at least have some say, but would a typical team pres. just outsource that decision to his GM (you get $60M for operations, divvy it up as you will)?
Obvioiusly, had DL not been a world-historical moron, he could have advocated for a bigger draft budget regardless. But is it actually plausible that he was trying to work within a miserly draft budget?
Who decides the relative sizes of those budgets?
I would suspect that it varies somewhat from organization to organization. Probably some combination of the GM, the team president, and the owner, depending on the command structure and the owner’s degree of involvement in operations.
The Owner would always sign off on the budget
And has command responsibility for his property. So….
Word on the street has it that Nutting trusts the people he hires and will follow their recommendations. For instance, Littlefield convinced Nutting that the Matt Morris trade made sense. Nutting signed off on the deal.
s.zielinski
yea right
littlefield never had 17 million to spend, and speaking of mediocre free agents wow, everyone of huntington signing have been poor to mediocre.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
yea right littlefield never had 17 million to spend
He said that he had the money to take Wieters and sign him to an above-slot deal if he wanted, but that he preferred Moskos.
He may have been lying about that, of course.
It's likely that...
…Littlefield and McClatchy were of like mind on team construction. And, if McClatchy ever thought Littlefield ought to build the team differently than he had till then, McClatchy did not tell Littlefield to adopt a new strategy.
Mike Emeigh has argued for years that McClatchy abandoned a youth movement project in the late-90s.
s.zielinski
"Years of Exorbitant Spending"
Is a little ignorant. It’s been 4 years. And when you draft a lot of high upside high school pitchers, much like the Pirates have, it will take atleast that long to bear any fruit. Give it 2 more years…then would be a better time to evaluate the process, IMO.
by bosten7 on Oct 4, 2011 1:02 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
It’s not too early to expect some of these high school pitchers to at least be putting up really strong seasons in Class A.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Oct 4, 2011 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I mean, the Pirates only had one prospect in the top 20 in the South Atlantic League, which is where a lot of those high school pitchers are. It’s not as if most of the top prospects on that list are 23-year-olds.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Oct 4, 2011 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, I think it is. The guys they’ve drafted have mostly been guys whose upside was a matter of projection. They’re still mostly around 20, which means they’re not close to being physically mature. Guys like Taillon or Shelby Miller or Rick Porcello, who can go straight to full season leagues and impress, are the exceptions and they pretty much all go in round one.
I’m not saying these guys will ever turn into anything. We may get squat out of it. And I’m not saying I’m happy with the state of the system, because I’m not at all happy with the hitting side of it. But I think it really is still a little early with most of the HS pitchers.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Oct 4, 2011 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Guys like Taillon or Shelby Miller or Rick Porcello, who can go straight to full season leagues and impress, are the exceptions and they pretty much all go in round one.
Yeah. It’s true that a lot of the top pitching prospects at that level are former first rounders. The Pirates could have picked one of those types of guys in the first round of the ‘09 draft, but they didn’t.
At this point, unfortunately, what’s less clear to me is where all this projection is going to come from, especially since the organization’s fixation on 6-foot-4 skinny guys didn’t really reach intense levels until this last draft. Von Rosenberg, hopefully, but beyond that … Cain and Dodson really aren’t supposed to be that projectable, as far as I know. Pounders isn’t, either. Trent Stevenson is projectable, but he looks completely clueless. So in the ‘09 draft, I’m not sure it’s too early to start forming opinions. And for ‘08, it’s certainly not too early. I agree that it’s too early to get much of a read on some guys like Ryan Hafner from the ’10 draft.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Oct 4, 2011 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
The Pirates could have picked one of those types of guys in the first round of the ‘09 draft, but they didn’t.
Yep. We went with a player who was regarded as a fairly low-ceiling talent relative to some of the other available first rounders. Two years later, he seems like a decent-but-unexceptional prospect, while some of the players we passed over look like future stars.
We still might end up with a decent outcome if Sanchez develops into a starting-caliber MLB catcher, but teams don’t have many chances to acquire future superstars on the cheap, and it kind of hurts in retrospect to see them miss that one.
It
was a definite miss, but we also passed over complete busts, such as Tyler Matzek and avoided (thankfully) of having the chance to draft Donavan Tate. Tony Sanchez is going to provide some value. Miller, Trout, or Turner would have been better. I think we’ve got enough upside/star potential in the last two years that it somewhat offsets going low-ceiling in the ’09 draft.
Only time will tell.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately, we'll never know about
Matzek since the Rockies changed his motion and look how well that turned out.
I don't think anybody is giving up on the Stevensons & VonRosenburg's of the world...
it’s just that few have stood out as really good prospects to validate the investment. 2 to 3 years in, that is disconcerting.
Good day.
The guys they’ve drafted have mostly been guys whose upside was a matter of projection.
Baseball America is a scout-driven media company, and as a result their rankings are typically based more on projection than current production. In theory, that should help a farm system like Pittsburgh’s, which was largely built through drafts and signings that focused on player potential. Not that BA’s rankings ignore production or are to be taken as gospel, but the fact that our minor league players aren’t all over these lists is a bit disconcerting.
Tools and projection aren’t the same thing. BA grades on tools, like a 95-mpg fastball, not on projection, like having a physique that may eventually allow a guy to throw 95 mph.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
I got an inside look at BA’s prospect database a few weeks ago, and it includes grades (20-80) for current tools and future tools — the latter of which can be considered a projection. It’s a projection of tools as opposed to production, so you are right. I suppose the real question here is whether the league prospect rankings were based on current tools, future tools or both.
a 95-mpg fastball
So Nutting’s too cheap to pay for gas now? :rolleyes:!
by matskralc on Oct 5, 2011 7:04 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nice catch!
rec’d.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 5, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
agree
I do agree with Charlie that the system could look a lot better and that it’s somewhat troubling that it doesn’t. But I also think WTM is right here – the Pirates basically committed to not having a good-looking farm system when they implemented the “raw HS pitching” draft strategy in 2009. That’s a strategy designed for the long-term and more or less doomed to pay few dividends in the short-term. Now, whether it’s going to work in the long-term or not isn’t at all clear, but I don’t think we can judge it one way or another at this point.
Another thing worth pointing out, if you’re trying to get a sense of the Pirates’ system from these BA lists, is that we have two excellent prospects who aren’t eligible (Cole, Bell) and two very good prospects who won’t place well because of disappointing performances (Sanchez, Allie).
My personal take is that the system is strong at the top but thins out pretty quickly after the first seven or eight. After that, the depth is mostly young guys who are hard to read so far, largely because that’s the type of player they’ve been drafting. It’s going to take a couple more years before the system really comes into focus.
Relatedly, I think the Pirates should start dealing from that depth for major league pieces. This, of course, would require the FO to make savvy evaluations of their own talent, though, which I’m not entirely convinced they can do.
what depth?
Are you referring to the young guys that are “hard to read” What do you expect to get for that that would be of any help to the major league roster. Unless you’re in favor of a bunch of Jack Wilson/Ian Snell type acquisitions.
and in their better years
those players, or similar talents, would upgrade our roster at a few positions.
depth
I’m referring mostly to our C+ guys and our C grade lottery tickets. A package of Cain, Grossman, and Hafner, for instance, could get you something decent – maybe a Ricky Nolasco or something like that. (Names for illustration purposes only.)
I hear you
but it’s important to remember that many of these guys aren’t even dominant high school pitchers. Many just have a projectable body, an okay fastball and a small wrinkle pitch. Until they start to fill out their body, they’re not going to produce against guys at a college level.
by bosten7 on Oct 4, 2011 2:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I am also a bit disappointed that we have not seen more breakouts at this point. One huge advantage that teams like Tampa Bay, Texas, Toronto, and Boston have in populating the lists for the lower levels is the sheer amount of draft picks that they have signed in the past few years due to the current draft compensation rules. The Pirates have had very few compensatory picks.
I guess the nagging question
remains, how accurate are these lists? And are the successful teams just miles ahead when it comes to producing young players who actually have successful careers, or were they able to ship this so-called highly touted prospects out for useful trades instead? Projecting success in baseball for young players is more difficult than football for a number of reasons. In football, we see tons of college players each week on TV, so viewers can listen to analysts, and get a general idea about those players. One of the NFL draft publications I buy is very accurate in projecting talent when you look back.
Baseball is different, and we really seldom get to see these minor league players in action. I still recall Baseball America ranking the Pirates farm system very highly in the late 90s, and that turned out to be false. So I’m not sure about these experts, another website talks about how great the Royals are going to be in a few years, but who knows?
It’s really tough to find any real track record on this subject, and which list is one you can count on.
Not very
Over at Royals Review Scott McKinney examined the major league success of BA top prospects. His conclusion was that 63% of BA’s top position prospects and 74% of pitching prospects were “busts.” Even after the winnowing process of the minor leagues, it’s still really hard to tell who will succeed in the majors.
Viva Clemente!
Wow! Highly recommended
Of note: Indians had the highest success rate in the period studied (1990-2003) Wonder if that had anything to do w/NH’s hiring. Pirates had one of the lowest success rates in the period (14.8%) just above the Giants. Thanks very much for the link.
Lino Donoso
If I may offer my honest opinion
I see our minors this way. Very few things in baseball change overnight. The miracle of Jose Bautista hitting 54 homeruns or the Rays taking the 2008 MLB by storm are exceptions to the rule and are what make them such great (in the case of Bautista, frustrating) stories. The Pirates are coming back from the brink of organizational destruction and it is a slow and frustrating process. In my humble view, the minors has gotten better each year since 2008 and will only get better, as will the organization.
So for 4 drafts...according to BA.
we have 2 major (??) leaguers…Alvarez and d’Arnaud…both 2008 draftees
likely no top 20 prospects at AAA…Presley might show up on the list, but he burned his rookie status this year and is a 2006 draftee.
MAYBE 2 at AA…Marte (a Littlefield international signing) and McPherson (2007 Littlefield draftee)
none at high A…Bradenton
one at low A…West Virginia…Taillon (2010 draftee)
two at short season A…State College…Kingham (2010 draftee) and Dickerson (2011 draftee)
3 at Rookie…GCL Pirates…Heredia, Osuna and Hanson (all international signings).
Yes, the Pirates farm system was trash before the current administration took over. Considering the high draft choices and amount of money spent…it doesn’t appear that we’ve made up much ground. The lower levels of the system should be seeing a few more draftees on these lists. Especially since in most cases, our players are playing with contemporaries, experience-wise. The 2009 draft class is invisible in these lists.
D'Arnaud
is not a major leaguer, not yet at least. Sure he played in some games, but I didn;t see anything to be hopeful about.
no
I did see something, a AAAA player, who lost rookie status due to the absence of better options.
It should be noted that Grossman got screwed in the FSL ranking
and one could make an argument that Cunningham and McPherson should have been on this list as well. Who cares if Grossman doesn’t have any “carrying tools” whatever that means? He had a 418 OBP, his power and K-rate both improved dramatically. The only thing that concerns me with him is that his K-rate is 22.6% and I’d rather it be around 15%. Still, it’s trending in the right direction and when one considers his patience and developing power, he is a very good prospect. He might even be a top-100 prospect in all of baseball. To leave him off this list is ridiculous.
by houksyndrome on Oct 4, 2011 4:00 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It should be noted that Grossman got screwed in the FSL ranking and one could make an argument that Cunningham and McPherson should have been on this list as well.
I was going to disagree… and then I saw that they had Flores at 20. So, yeah, a lot of people have a case for being in that spot instead of him. At this point, the best thing that can be said for Flores is that he’s young.
Who cares if Grossman doesn’t have any "carrying tools" whatever that means?
Some tools are more important than others at any given position. To be a shortstop, you mostly need to have above-average hands and range. To be a first baseman, you mostly need to have above-average hitting (i.e. contact hitting – hitting for average) and power. A plus arm is mostly wasted on a first baseman, and a center fielder who isn’t a plus runner probably isn’t going to be much of a center fielder at all. Etc.
Callis is saying that Grossman doesn’t fit the mold of a typical right fielder, scouting-wise.
Question
To what extent do these lists suffer from “minus 6 points for being in the Pirates’ system” syndrom? Are our kids, on average, any better than the lists indicate?
I remain confident...
that the strategy being employed is correct. The developing issue is the execution of the strategy.
The problem is that as the yinzers start to realize that the farm system isn’t burgeoning the cries for aborting the strategy and shifting to Derek Bell/Terry Mulholland plan will grow louder. I know NH does a fine job of tuning out that noise, but it’d better if it didn’t happen.
For a while I have been questioning the organization’s ability to judge talent. Admittedly that was primarily at the high minors & big league level, but it is depressing that it appears to be a system-wide issue.
Good day.
There are a number of people front Huntington's first draft that are still 22 years old or younger.
This post is about 3 years too early.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Agreed.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
*from
Corrective typing is killing me.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Oct 4, 2011 9:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This post is about 3 years too early.
It’s about three years too early to say that he failed, but not too early to be concerned about the early returns.
by Vlad on Oct 4, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh
you can be concerned. I’m just far from concerned.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I know
it doesn’t necessarily speak to the depth of the whole system, but 3 Neal Huntington’s 4 biggest bonuses were in eligible to appear on any of these lists.
Pedro Alvarez – MLB
Gerrit Cole – 0 pro innings
Josh Bell – 0 pro AB’s
Obviously that doesn’t look that good either considering how Pedro’s done. Still I’d maintain come back in at least 12 months, and probably 24 months before I can really judge anything.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 8:39 AM EDT reply actions
In all honesty
I could care less what the system “looks” like and more about how these players perform if/when they get to the majors. Just because BA doesn’t have many Pirates in their lists does not mean we don’t have capable major league players. Examples include Neil Walker and Alex Presley (I know Walker was ranked highly at one point and Presley has only played part of a season).
For instance, when we were in first place this year we had players like D’arnaud, Presely, Harrison, Moskos, Watson and even Crotta filling in. While they may not be superstars they can at least replace the Matt Diaz’s and Ramon Vazquez’s of the world. Thus freeing up money to potentially signing a real free agent down the line.
Also, it seems like we have some potential relief pitchers who will be very cheap for a few years. While relief pitchers are not exciting, we have a plethora of them waiting near AAA. Including Bryan Morris, Justin Wilson (if he relieves), Jared Hughes, Tony Watson, Daniel Moskos, and Mike Crotta. Perhaps these players can replace Free agent signings for Relief Pitchers and eventually turn into draft picks.
All is not lost
So we have a number of replacement level prospects available....
who will all safely assure we lose 90-100 games a year? In the past 15 years we haven’t signed an impact free agent yet you are encouraged that we the money to sign an impact free agent…I am not. Your post is one of the reasons to be disheartened. In the upper levels of the minors we have a collection of utility players, a few promising relievers, and fringe organizational arms. That is depressing.
AAA is mainly where there hasn’t been enough time for the talent to matriculate. Not all of those players are destined to be replacement level their whole career either. Plus every team needs 20-25th players on their 25 man, they aren’t worthless pieces. Oh, and extra bullpen arms can net you JJ Hardy, or Jason Bartlett, or numerous other players.
Not sure the handling of Grossman and Allie is consistent
About Allie, Aaron Fitt of BA said:*
This is a good spot to mention that these league top 20 lists place more value on league context and performance than our organization Top 30 lists. Allie just did not perform this summer and did not impress many people around the NY-P, but he’ll still factor pretty heavily in that Pirates Top 30, I suspect.
I don’t take that to mean that Allie lacks tools (though maybe scouts’ opinions of his tools have sunk). But that makes it seem as though they valued tools over performance in high-A and performance over tools in short-season, which if anything seems backwards.
*Buccobrigade also had this quote, but I’m linking to the minorleagueball post for context folks might not have seen.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Oct 4, 2011 10:09 AM EDT reply actions
This jumped out at me from the GCL thread:
The Phils’ FSL team was possibly the most loaded in the minors.
by WTM on Oct 3, 2011 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions
-
How does that happen when they pick 25 spots after us every year?
It happens when most of the talent in your farm system just happens to be at the same level.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Exactly
It is a bit worrisome, but imagine what could happen regarding the Pirates FSL team last year.
Taillon is Taillon. Cole is Cole, with that nasty changeup and improved command. Dickerson begins the year at WV, tears, the cover off the ball, and is promoted to Bradenton. Josh Bell also tears the cover off the ball and in an surprising move, the Pirates move him up to Bradenton. Both preform well. Then Jarek Cunningham has a monster first half hitting the ball, walks a little, and stays healthy. Cap that all off with a breakout year from Zach Von Rosenberg.
Taillon and Cole both make the top 3 of the FSL end-year list. Bell makes the top 10 and Cunningham, Dickerson, and Von Rosenberg all make 10-20, and solid years from Colton Cain and Zach Dodson allows them to enter the discussion. Even Mel Rojas Jr. has an exciting year.
Likely? Hell no. Plausible? No, not really. Believable if you hope really really hard? Yes.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Although
it’s not to downplay what the Phillies have done. They have drafted at the end of the draft for years and have maintained a stable of solid, and sometimes even spectacular, prospects in their farm system.
For me though, I see it as a good sign. Ignoring their ability to sign free agents, the Phillies would still be doing well relying on their farm even drafting at end of each round. It means we could do the same when we begin winning, so maybe there won’t be cycles of losing and winning, etc.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Dickerson will begin the year at Bradenton.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Even
better!
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
none of those guys were high draft picks anyway
I didn’t check their bonuses or everything, but this is how those Phillies prospects seem to have been acquired:
Trevor May: 4th round ’08
Jonathan Singleton: 8th round ’09
Jarred Cosart: 38th round ’08
Sebastian Valle: FA from Mexico
Brody Colvin: 7th round ’09
So it looks like good scouting.
(Also, I just noticed this: “Thanks to the high Class A Florida State League’s big parks and sea-level altitude, pitchers typically stand out more than the hitters.” Whaaaat? Shouldn’t the leading authority on the minor leagues know enough to correct for that?)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Oct 4, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, that's weird
I also wondered before about something related to this:
What if teams like the Phillies allow their young mid round pitchers to go ahead and use advanced offspeed stuff, which the Bucs are supposedly stricter with? Does that help them bolster their K rates, so that they can be looked upon as great prospects and moved in trades? I suppose we’ll know with time… (certainly, not to downplay that the Phils have done a decent job getting good ML pitchers in recent years— Hamels, Worley)
I've
definitely pondered that. I personally believe had Taillon been unleashed this year, he’d be viewed much better as a prospect, which is saying something.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Brody Colvin: 7th round ’09
FWIW, Colvin was very well-regarded by scouts going into the ‘09 draft. BA had him as their #43 prospect that year, for example, which is a sandwich-round grade. He dropped to the seventh round because he was reported to have a strong commitment to LSU that would make him very difficult to sign, but Philly got him inked for $900k. That’s about what he would’ve gotten if he’d been taken where his ability dictated.
As such, it was good scouting, but maybe not for the reason that you thought. Assessing a player’s personality and signability are important duties for scouts, too.
Should've been clearer (and probably not said "good scouting")
What I was thinking but didn’t say is that the Phillies’ low draft position isn’t relevant, because every team passed on these guys at least a couple times.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Oct 4, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes...
but, Is it good scouting when you uncover a player in later rounds who develops much better than you anticipated or is it luck?
If you take a guy in the tenth round that has been passed over 275 times and he develops into an All-Star how do you rate that? Good scouting, good player development, luck? I’m sure each case is different, but the luck component is probably pretty significant. Now if you prove to be “lucky” many times, maybe it isn’t luck.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
Is it good scouting when you uncover a player in later rounds who develops much better than you anticipated or is it luck?
A little of both in that case, I think. A lot of draft prospects are guys who can have a career if they address X, Y, and Z. Some are going to be able to do that, and some aren’t, and the distribution of which is which is probably at least semi-random. But the scout deserves at least a small cookie for recognizing that inherent potential in the player in the first place, because there are a lot of guys out there with no shot at all, too.
You also have the possible scenario of an area scout liking a guy as a high-round pick, but not having enough juice with the organization to persuade anyone to take him particularly high, or having his report partially cancelled out by that of a cross-checker.
I have a very old and very dear friend
who will attest to what you are saying here.
Former scout w/Phillies org.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 4, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, cool.
Is he an old-school scout? I found the “Dollar Sign on the Muscle” chapter inside the Phillies’ draft room to be pretty illuminating. I forget what year that was – ’81, maybe?
He once told me
that book brought up a lot of painful memories for him.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 5, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's a key point
It can take awhile for a scout making idiosyncratic recommendations to have them proven correct (often enough). Maybe every other year a guy’s sleeper pick gets chosen in a late® round (either due to juice or due to someone else getting him), and then only a fraction of those will actually make it. And you’re not going to start privileging a given scout’s picks until he makes a few good calls, not just 1 or 2.
But in the meantime, a given org could accumulate a nice little handful of surprising, late round successes.
inked for 900k?
Terrelle Pryor could have gotten him much a better deal, with sleeves even.
Oh, you meant signed to a contract. Sorry.
The Eastern League list is out
Marte at #7, McPherson at #20.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/league-top-20-prospects/2011/2612441.html
interesting list
more love than I expected for Gose and Peacock…
is Francisco Martinez of the tigers the guy who went to Seattle in a trade? Hadn’t struck me as a guy who would rank 16 in the EL (not that I’ve ever seen him, but based on reactions to the trade and stats)
Points out one more flaw . . .
This list does not include Matt Curry. Nor should it. However, he should have been on the South Atlantic List, but did not stay long enough to make it. The aggressive promotion of Curry probably cost us a player on the BA lists.
One could make the argument that Mercer might should have been on the Eastern League list too.
by SojourningPirate on Oct 4, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
not necessarily true about Curry
as much as he pounded in the SAL, he probably wouldnt have cracked the top 20. there are quite a few lumbering 1Bmen who put up numbers but arent prospects because they werent prospects when drafted, if that makes any sense.
look at Clint Robinson of the Royals. All he has done is produce. He even won the Texas League triple crown. What did that earn him? #28 on the Royals prospects list. Not the texas league list, but the fricken Royals list.
Interesting
point from John Manuel gleaned from the minor league ball thread.. about Matt Harvey
"John Manuel: Harvey did pitch enough to qualify, and he’s in that 21-25 group. The guys I talked to who saw him in the EL thought his stuff was inconsistent and his inexperience showed a bit in terms of setting up hitters and pitch sequence, but he didn’t miss by much. On a top 100, I’d imagine he’d go ahead of Kyle McPherson, for example….But Harvey’s upside remains very high."
Makes it seem like McPherson will at least be considered for the top 100 list. We could be looking at 6 on a top 100 list (although Grossman being excluded from the FSL brings that idea into question).
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of folks think our pitchers will shoot up the charts once the “leash” is taken off them from low-A, etc. Pirates are still a bit historically focused on the toolsy guys, rather than power, but I would say it’s better than Littlefield’s hitters or at least we are bringing them along at a faster pace with a real chance to make an impact in the majors.
Not a bad first give picks in 2008. 2009 brought us a bit of an overdraft on Sanchez, although picks 2-7 signed and can be considered prospects (with varying levels of grades). Sure, no one has ascended to the majors and tore it up (Presley is exciting), but we’re getting there.
I really do feel that draft selections like Mel Rojas Jr are a more an organizational artifact. With a different organization, different drafting priorities, less “toolsy” focused guys (not saying you dont’ want them), that might have been a different player.
I feel the Bell (#2) and Dickerson (#3) picks represent a departure from previous regimes and ways of business.
I also feel that is Moneyball were applied to the NFL, the Steelers need to get back to their run first philosophy.
The Steelers used to be good
at getting rid of guys a year early, rather than a year late.
Perhaps they have reversed that course, to their detriment.
Obviously
they looked bad so far this year, but we were in the superbowl last year and had a chance to win with a late scoring drive. We might be in for a few rough patches as we get our defense younger, and we need two great offensive lineman, but the Steelers will continue to be the Steelers.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean
we need to develop them. We need 2 studs to go along with Pouncey, and then patch the other 2 spots year to year. Our defensive line should be set with Ziggy and our 1st round pick this year for the next several years, and our linebackers are more than okay. Secondary needs some work
Improve the line substantially and the defensive secondary a bit and we will continue to be a dynasty.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
That is a good point. Steelers also are fond of cutting rookies guards before the season and they get picked up by another team. Buffalo’s starting guard is a former Steelers cut.
Urbik?
Not going to shed any tears over him – don’t really understand why they picked him in the first place.
The fact that he’s starting for the Bills says more about the Bills than it does about him.
Who are these folks?
I haven’t read or met many people who think the problem with the Buc arms from ‘08 and ’09 is that the leash hasn’t been taken off..it seems the majority feel that they don’t have the tools or the talent to succeed.
Just my thoughts, i haven't read other comments yet but
As you point out Charlie, the guys from the 2011 class really haven’t had a chance yet, so that gives NH three years 2008-2010 to evaluate on the draft.
The fact that Sanchez had a bum year hurts NH cred for the 2009 class as the prep pitchers are still building up their control and variety of pitches at a young age, and had for the most part, fairly decent seasons. So 2009 class, the jury is still out IMO.
2008 draft rides on Pedro Alvarez apparently. Like Sanchez, a down year, but Pedro has made it to the majors now and well, if he were still in the minors he may have the stats to be 1 or 2 at the level he would be at, so a strong 2012 from Pedro def changes things for the 2008 draft.
As for 2010, you see Taillon and Kingham up there, both good signs. Of course the wild card would be if Allie can get some polish on his pitches, even if that means toning it down a notch on the FB. Included in 2010 was Heredia, who also made the list up there, another positive sign.
I’m not saying our system is great, as we tend to over evaluate our own players in our heads but I think the outlook for the system remains the same, its on the ups with some quality players that coupled with breakout potential players (ie Rojas, Curry, McPherson, Grossman, Morris, etc) there is much much more to be positive about then to dwell on the fact that the guys we have in there now may not get it done. Sure that may be the case, but one can say that about any system.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
by C Shint on Oct 4, 2011 12:44 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Wonder how much
the broken jaw has affected Sanchez, he showed promise offensively before the injury.
his offense
came at Bradenton, which doesn’t say much. He has good plate discipline which helps at any level but at some point he actually needs to get hits and show some power or else I don’t see him as much more than a McKenry (good defensive catcher, at best average hitter). We’ll see how he does this year, if he struggles well then I think we know what we have in Sanchez, he breaks out and it becomes a case of well is the 2011 or 2012 the real Sanchez.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Bradenton ain't High Desert
Bradenton is relatively a hitter’s park within a big-time pitcher’s league, which doesn’t mean you should throw out Bradenton stats the way you do with the Cal League. Fangraphs’ wRC+ is supposed to adjust for league and park, and Sanchez’s wRC+ from 2010 was 153, which means he was half again as good as the average player would’ve been in that context. A lot better than Jarek Cunningham this year (less SLG, a lot more OBP). Also, from the WTM article I linked, Bradenton mostly helps lefties, and Sanchez is right-handed.
That isn’t to say we shouldn’t be concerned; the worry was always that he’d get exposed at AA, and he sure sucked this year. But we shouldn’t write off his performance at Bradenton because it’s a pitcher’s park.
(BTW, if Sanchez winds up with an average bat and good D, that’s not a bad outcome at all. I’d say McKenry is more of an average D/terrible bat player.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Oct 4, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Double yes
on the last point. McKenry’s D looked fabulous after Brown/Torreagas, but over ~50 starts, it looked a lot closer to average.
One of the reasons I’ve never viewed the Sanchez pick as a mistake is just what you said: you don’t have to be amazing to be very valuable at C, especially if you can stay healthy. Obviously, Sanchez’ 2011 is cause for concern, but it shouldn’t change his fundamental talent assessment: solid to plus defense, adequate to decent offense. Maybe there are holes in his defense that he won’t fill, and maybe his bat won’t quite translate, but he doesn’t need to add a tool to become a league-average catcher, and just modest development on either (or both) side of his game could put him in the top 1/3 of ML catchers.
Ironically, even though he doesn’t have a super-high ceiling, I feel as if he’s the prospect we can least afford to have fail. We’re not counting on any IFs (set Pedro aside), we’re OK with OFs, and we have a number of very talented pitchers. But if Sanchez craters, we basically can expect little more than bench-level production (that is, better than replacement, but far below average) from that position for at least 5 years.
Ramon Cabrera and Carlos Paulino object
at least while they’re riding the Bradenton wave.
(So does Eric Fryer, at least via me)
Almost mentioned Fryer
I was thinking specifically of him as “bench-level”; maybe in his best year he puts up a couple wins, but even as a full-time starter, I can’t see him averaging much more than 1.5 WAR/year. I’d love to be surprised, but….
As for Cabrera and Paulino, I was thinking of (one of) them in terms of being 5 years away – not from reaching the bigs, but from being impact players. I don’t expect either of them to be able to stone-step to being starter-grade Cs in 2014. Best (realistic) case is one of them can play backup some time in 2014, and maybe battle for starter in 2015. And even then, it’s not clear if either can be a league-average C.
most of that sounds reasonable
i see Sanchez as belonging to the same bracket as Cabrera/Paulino, in terms of future performance. (To clarify, I suspect Cabrera/Paulino will struggle more with the glove as they rise, and potentially bat too, but i mean based on their current performance, not projection)
Right
If 2011 was a genuine reflection of Sanchez, and not a blip, then he definitely falls into their category. But if I choose to believe in him still, then I keep him in a higher slot.
Put it this way: if Sanchez and either or both of C&P put up roughly comparable, decent but not breakthrough seasons in 2012, then I’m liking Sanchez a bit more than the younger guys, both because he’s closer and because he’s supposed to be better. Only if Sanchez has a bother crummy (or even mediocre) year will I really knock him down to C&P’s level. It has more to do with my high esteem for him, not low for them.
But if Sanchez craters, we basically can expect little more than bench-level production (that is, better than replacement, but far below average) from that position for at least 5 years.
I have a feeling that if Sanchez craters, we’ll acquire a different catcher at some point in the next five years.
And it’s not like we don’t have any other catching prospects. Cabrera’s coming off a pretty nice season.
You'd hope so
But there’s 2 things: 1 is that there’s no guarantee we successfully find a useful C in that timespan (look at our success with SS – Cedeno’s OK, but it’s been 10 years since we’ve acquired, much less developed, an MLB average SS), and 2 is that chasing a useful (or better) C takes resources away from finding 3Bs, SSs, 1Bs, and SPs.
agreed, but I'm not quite sure what you're saying about SS
From 2003-9 we had about a league average SS — Jack Wilson had 13.1 WAR in 7 seasons, missing half of one, which is a 2 WAR pace.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Oct 4, 2011 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Good ol' Jack
came from St.Louis’ org, is what I think JRoth means…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 4, 2011 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
And had been acquired before
So in the summer of 2000, we got ourselves an SS from elsewhere. Nothing really wrong with that, but in the following 11 years, we’ve… traded for a poor man’s Jack Wilson. Granted, much of that time came under Bonifay and DL, but still, there’s no one on the horizon that even figures to exceed Ronny’s performance.
My fear is that, someday, Ryan Doumit will be viewed as the only decent catcher developed by the Pirates between Kendall and Yadier Molina, Jr.
The trouble with being uninterested/unable to develop players at a given position is that you end up scrambling to get other teams’ discards or extras. So you have a stopgap, like Ronny, then you realize that you can’t even replace his production without overpaying, so now a guy who’s sub-mediocre becomes “critical”, and you end up either squandering resources trying to upgrade or hamstringing yourself with a guy whose ceiling is “average”.
A sustainable development system produces something like an average player (at a given position) every 5-7 years, with a serviceable player every 3-4 years in between. That means that, at any given time, you’ve got a good Plan A and an acceptable Plan B. And it’s not a crazy rate of production. Indeed, Sanchez + C&P could actually approximate it. My fear is that, without Sanchez, it’s a looong wait to C or P.
by that measure we haven't developed an average SS since Gene Alley
unless you count when Kevin Polcovich was around average for one year (oh, who am I kidding, everyone on this board knows it was 1997).
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Oct 4, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Acquisitions are fine
Esp. MiL ones (because they’re cheap), but you can’t rely on them. If you draft an SS or 2 every year, you’ll get an OK one every so often (unless you suck). But when you trade for one, you’re picking out of another org’s stream of maybes. Obviously, a AAA guy is relatively predictable, but once you drop below that, you’re entering crapshoot territory.
Point being, maybe you trade for a MiL SS every 2-3 years. How often will one of those pan out? And you’re expending scarcer resources (players to trade are fewer than draft dollars) for something with only marginally better odds. Needless to say, trading for (or signing) ML SS is an extremely expensive proposition, and directly limits how many other position players, SPs, and RPs you can go get.
Jim Callis was recently asked to rate the top duo's prospect wise
Ranked:
Harper/Rendon
Machado/Bundy
Taillon/Cole
Moore/Hak-Ju-Lee
Montero/Banuelos
Honorable Mention:
Bauer/Skaggs
Profar/Perez
Teheran/Vizcaino
S. Miller/C.Martinez
Hultzen/T.Walker
We do have a dynamic 1-1 at the top of our lists but its not immediate help. Taillon/Cole still makes me giddy!
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
phew
Bradenton is going to be the place to be to start next season. The pitching prospects of our system that will be there is going to be awesome
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
unless Cole starts off in Altoona
which may not happen simply because of Bradenton being a warmer environment in April
You can
imagine how fun it was living in Charleston last summer and that was without Cole!
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Almost
makes me want to go out and get a solid, polished college SP this year at #8. A Matt Barnes, Taylor Jungmann type. Sign him fairly quickly, start him in Bradenton. Then start him, Taillon, and Cole in Altoona in 2013.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh
ya I guess. Since he’s pitching in the AFL, you are right. If he’s there to start 2013, it better be with a plan to move him up to AAA within the first month.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
EL Top 20
The scouting report on McPherson is pretty exciting. Reading between the lines, I think it says that all three of his pitches have plus potential and he has #2 upside. I am not that optimistic about him, but it’s very nice to hear.
#2 upside?
so why is he at #20 in the league? Do they project all the pitchers ahead of him as #1/2 upside too? Or are they adjusting for pedigree?
That wouldn't be implausible
Even at AA, only a relatively small portion of SPs pan out, plus we’re talking upside. Take 10 AA SPs with 1/2 upside, and you’ll get 5 washouts and 1 guy each at spots 1-5. Or something like that.
sure
i m just trying to get a feel of McPherson, who is another prospect I’ve seen v little of in terms of video… and AA is the first level where I am starting to note the players— since I care v little for lists A ball and below…
Important to understand that these are projection driven
The Number 3 prospect in the EL is Anthony Gose, who batted .253 with 154 strikeouts! His isolated power is 0.162; Marte’s is 0.168. Yet you get the quote about Marte
He’ll have to incorporate his lower half into his swing better to improve his below-average pop.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to say, “154 strikeouts is a major red flag.”
Viva Clemente!
Right -- A big red flag
The Gose > Marte ranking amazed me. Marte’s is seemingly considered to be Gary Brown’s inferior. That too amazes me. It’s comparisons like this which make prospect lists appear irrational.
s.zielinski
I do!
Gose = Phillies’ prospect. Phillies are in a big market and expected to be good.
Marte = Pirates’ prospect. Pirates are in a small market and expected to be bad.
That’s pretty much all there is to it.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
You're right!
He was a Phillies’ prospect until the middle of the 2010 season.
Should have been more diligent in my research. My apologies.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
bear in mind
That’s an old video. He’s got a more over-the-top arm slot now and better arm action, in addition to the improved stuff.
He's also
the guest on this week’s Rumbunter Podcast
[/pimpage]
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 4, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
i d seen this one
someone had recently linked to Newman’s McPherson report (maybe epoc) and I resaw this one again a few days back… still, it’s before he put himself on the map
I would think
the Curve’s site would have some video?
I’m having issues with MiLB’s videos, so can’t tell you for sure.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 4, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuzzy math?
By my count, there are 16 leagues in the U.S. minor league system. That means there will be 320 players on these lists, or about 11 per team.
I’m not sure lumping them together like that is a good way to look at the proportions.
GCL, 15 teams, top 20 = 1.33 players per team. Pirates have 3.
NYPL, 14 teams, top 20 = 1.43 ppt. Pirates have 2
SAL, 14 teams, top 20 = 1.43 ppt. Pirates have 1
FSL, 12 teams, top 20 = 1.67 ppt, Pirates have 0
EL, 12 teams, top 20 = 1.67 ppt, Pirates have 2
IL, 14 teams, top 20 = 1.43 ppt, Pirates likely have 0
I think the point you made stands, that the system isn’t exactly rocking, but in true proportions, the system looks average-y. We should have about 9, we’ll have 8.
How many prospects did we have on each league’s list in 2007? How many did the Rays have in 2003? How many did the Twins have in 1999?
by azibuck on Oct 4, 2011 3:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
How many prospects did we have on each league’s list in 2007?
Five.
None at AAA.
Two at AA (Cutch at #2 and Walker at #9).
One at A+ (Shelby Ford at #17).
None at A.
Two at A- (Moskos at #4 and Duke Welker at #14).
None at R.
Thanks for that
I was wondering exactly that. 8 out of 9 becomes a rounding error, or, more specifically, one or two scouts with strong, but not necessarily accurate, opinions.
average-y
That’s until you take into account that two of the team’s top 4-5 prospects aren’t eligible for any list. It’s those top guys that really drive these prospect rankings.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Oct 4, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
thing is
each team doesn’t have an equal chance of placing a player in the top 20. if a team has more legit prospects coming in at a level (such as the rays do in the lower levels next year with their ridiculous number of 1st and supplemental round picks) or has spent disproportionally on talent relative to other teams in those leagues (as the pirates have) then they should be expected to have more top prospects.
that’s the point of charlie’s article. if the team is spending than everyone else and coming up with only average results, then they’re underperforming.
There are some picks I questioned but
When I look at other teams like the Braves and Phillies etc who have had mature farm systems for decades…decades!…. then look at the Pirates who’s system basically laid dorment for years and without any pitching at all in the minors and the major league team I have to cut them some slack.
by oldfrothingslosh on Oct 4, 2011 3:05 PM EDT reply actions
also, Jarek Cunningham starting at 2B
Flyout to LF in his first AB…
does anyone know if the AFL is being covered realtime on Twitter? (by specific reporters, I mean; iirc, KLaw was there last year…)
Keith Law
Robbie Grossman just hit a popup that was carried out by the wind – classic AFL home run
haha
that’s unfortunate i suppose that the AFL does that, but anyway, a wind aided HR better than an out. He walked in his 3rd PA.
I'm assuming
the first was a single, so through 3 PA.
2/2, HR, BB
1.000 avg
1.000 obp
2.500 slg
3.500 ops
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Robbie "I'm not good enought to be a top 20 guy" Grossman
2 for 2 now with a long ball in his AFL debut.
We need to Cole to go out and head-hunt
all the other top prospects. If that 99 mph does enough damage we could have a top system for sure!!
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
Now
THIS is an idea (not really, I’m not supporting violence, just humor!).
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 4, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
the player below is a perfect example of how hard it is for a player to crack a top20 list when hes not "sexy" enough...
Nestor Molina of the Blue Jays. Hes relatively young, good control and good K numbers.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=molina001nes
but because of his slight build, which im guessing is not projectable, and it took him a few seasons to become a starting pitcher, it looks like the guy cant get noticed by the experts.
Maybe, maybe not.
“Best available” in the R5 draft can be a very subjective thing, depending on your organizational needs and your scouts’ preferences. And who knows? Maybe there’ll be lots of good guys left unprotected this year.
(I’m doing a tiny capsule on every plausible target I can find, just to be prepared, and then I’m going to cross off the ones that earn a spot on a 40-man as it happens. Even no-brainers like JJ Hoover get an entry, albeit a short one that starts with “No chance he’s not rostered”.)
there was a fair amount of discussion of Molina at minorleague ball
Starting here. Several people were surprised he missed the list; apparently a BA guy said that he was pretty close to the top 20, and one concern was that he had been relieving until recently (and perhaps is thought to be destined for the bullpen).
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Oct 4, 2011 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's all go back to previous years list and figure what percentage of those guys went on to become MLB stars
And then tell me why any of us should care about this years lists
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
by michaelbro8 on Oct 4, 2011 7:57 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Quite a few do
Just use your Google skillz to find previous lists and you’ll see a lot pretty impressive players on them.
We should all care
because at the present time, the list are as good as anything to evaluate the current state of the minor leagues. I suspect had these ranking given glowing reports about the Pirates minor leagues, we wouldn’t question their validity while applauding Neal Huntington for what a tremendeous job he’s done.
Unfortunately the reports aren’t glowing and Huntington isn’t doning a wonderful job.
One issue for the Pirates in the quest to acquire prospects
Despite the money in total the team has spent on the draft these past four years, it has spent more than enough money on projectable pitching. What it has done less of is to spend money on players like Fisher and Brown, two outfielders they took or could have taken in the last draft. It also failed to sign Watts and a few of its 2010 tough-to-sign pitchers. In other words, the Pirates may not have spent enough on the draft since Huntington took over.
The minor league system would surely look a lot stronger if the Pirates had forked over the money for some of the well-known name prospects it could have taken or taken and signed had it spent the money. It’s hard to criticize the Pirates for being cheap. But the team needs to make up for:
1. The wasteland the McClatchyfield regime left behind
2. The lack of supplemental picks during the Huntington era
But I’d say the system is stronger than it looks today. The Pirates have taken too many projectable pitchers for all of them to fail. Some will succeed as starters, some as relievers. It has pitchers like Allie and Heredia who have a ways to go before we can judge them to be strong prospects. If the team lacks anything, it lacks in quantity high-ceiling position players.
Sano would have looked nice of the Pirates list.
s.zielinski
Development
This is where I continue to be concerned. You can go and amass all the talent you want but if you don’t have the development machine in place, you’re not going to get good results. The Pirates have proven they can acquire talent, but not that they can actually mold that talent into star quality players. Development is what really makes or breaks an organization. Look at Matt Moore. 8th round draft pick, and he pretty much dominated all the way up. That’s exactly what our system needs to produce.
And while it’s not cause for panic, I think there is a legitimate concern when our guys are not stacking up against guys who were drafted or signed at the same time by other teams. How many guys on these top 20 lists could Huntington have drafted? Gotta think most of them. But, again, my worry is less about finding talent, but, rather, the people honing that talent down in our system.
I think you gotta change your mindset
Not trying to be confrontational, just saying, if you don’t draft talent, then you’re polishing stones, not gems. It’s possible, but not likely, that the entire MiL system could have poor teachers, and they’re developing players badly, or giving cripplingly bad instruction. I just kinda doubt it. I have no doubt that some systems/teachers are better than others, but the difference is probably pretty small. True talent will always emerge.
Can you say more? Like, how have the Pirates “proven they can acquire talent”? If it’s anyone that hasn’t reached AA, I’d question whether it’s proven they “can’t mold that talent into star quality players.”
It's got some legs
Grossman was one of our draft poster boys for the “Pay the Kids!” model. Now he’s producing at a high level and the scouts say he just isn’t that talented. All the high school arms, same thing, none have top stuff. Maybe we’re just spending the money on the wrong kids.
Hard to say
You never know which guys who produce in the minors but without top level talent will prove successful in the bigs. Maholm’s been more productive than a lot of guys with better stuff. Jack Wilson had a better career than his prospect status would have predicted.
It would be awesome to have a farm system full of 6’6" sluggers and 99 mph starters, but they’re not the end-all and be-all of constructing ball clubs. A couple-few studs, a couple-few above average players, and then as few black holes as possible.
Matt Moore = 2007 draft
Pirates 2007 draft may have been the worst of all time.
Although I guess McPherson came from that draft.
I see your 2007 draft and raise it with...
1998 – none of the Pirates’ top 14 picks ever played in the majors. While seven of the lower-round picks actually did play MLB, the best of the bunch was Joe Beimel (4.9 career WAR) and a bunch of chaff (Jeff Bennett, David Williams, Mike Johnston and Jon Switzer [who pitched for TB in the mid-2000s], with the other two being nothing more than footnotes in the “cup of coffee” HOF)
1999 – Ryan Doumit was drafted in the 2nd round this year, but only 3 other players ever made it to the majors (J.R. House, Brian Tallet and Walter Young), none with the Pirates. This was the year Albert Pujols lasted until the 13th round, BTW.
2004 – Neil Walker was the 1st rounder, but the only other players to yet make the majors from this draft were Brian Bixler, Cory Luebke (who didn’t sign with us, but did three years later with the Padres) and Jeremy Horst, who finally made the pros with the Reds this year, pitching 11 games (the Pirates drafted him in both 2003 and 2004, with him signing neither time, but finally signing with the Reds in 2007).
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
Man
That is just staggeringly inept. When Dave Williams is the #2 product of a draft year… oof.
Actually, if each of those drafts had produced just a single, roughly ML-average player, then the mid-00s DL teams would have been much closer to respectable. If they’d been average drafts, it’s possible we win in there somewhere. Which, I suppose, would ultimately have been counterproductive, but it would have felt good.
Has anyone run the numbers on what an “average” draft year looks like? I don’t know if you’d want total WAR, or maybe WAR from the 3 or 5 best products. Variance is huge, of course, and in the big picture the average will simply look something like MLB-wide WAR divided by average career length divided by 30. But I’d like to know what a reasonable expectation is.
I might be able to tackle that task...
…in the next couple of weeks. Let me see what I can pull together and if I get something accomplished, I’ll make a FanPost out of it.
I’m thinking I want to look at average number of players that made the majors overall, number of players from the top 10 (or 15 picks) that made it and the total WAR for each of those groups. I will probably look at the post-1994 strike period.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
Technically...
…two made it to the majors. The Pirates drafted Brandon Larson in the 46th round, but he didn’t sign.
They also drafted him in 1995 in the 38th round, with him not signing again, and then the Giants drafted him in the 38th round in 1996, only to have him spurn them as well.
Finally, in 1997, the Reds drafted him in the first round and he took that contract. He went on to play 102 games over 4 years and put up a stellar 49 OPS+ with a -1.4 WAR.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
Also, what makes that draft horrible...
…is that there are no names on the list that you would even recognize. No prospects that climbed through the system only to never pan out, just an unending string of Roger Goedde, Aaron France, Boo Brooks, Bo Springfield and Curry Deutsch.
In addition, it appears that possibly no one after the 9th round was even signed to a contract, according to BBREF. There are no minor-league stats for a single player between the Round on the Mound and Brandon Larson in the 46th round, and while that is not proof-positive, it is pretty damning.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
Wasn't that
When the ownership team was falling apart? When did McClatchy buy, winter ‘95-96? And they’d been on the market for a year before then. No excuse for bad picks, but the lack of signings was probably straight from ownership.
In addition, it appears that possibly no one after the 9th round was even signed to a contract, according to BBREF. There are no minor-league stats for a single player between the Round on the Mound and Brandon Larson in the 46th round, and while that is not proof-positive, it is pretty damning.
They’re there, just not linked from the draft page. For example, here’s 11th-round pick Richard Watts.
My point wasn’t about the 2007 draft. My point is that the Pirates’ system should be producing Matt Moores, turning later-round draft picks into front-line talent. If we had a Matt Moore from the 2008 draft, he’d be in AAA. If we had one from 2009, he’d be at AA. Do we have any such guys?
there's only one
Matt Moore. It’s unfortunate that he plays for another team, but it doesn’t say much either way about the Pirates’ drafting or developing. Do the Cardinals have any Matt Moores? Do the Cubs? Astros? What’s wrong with them?
in addition to what epoc said
Matt Moore was drafted in 2007 and only made AA in 2011. So, if we did have a Matt Moore, he would have been drafted in 08 or later (because Littlefield), and following Moore’s exact path would be in AA in 2012 (2008 draft) or later…
We do have one
he’s just called Alex Presley and not nearly as good. We have another one named Kyle Mcpherson, and maybe he becomes a mid-rotation guy.
If the Rays knew Moore would become Matt Moore, they would have taken him in the 1st round.
Asked at Baseball Prospectus
Someone asked Jason Parks of BP where the Pirates farm might rank with him. His response;
Top 10 for me. The arms are just stupid promising: Cole. Taillon, Allie, Heredia. On the other side, Marte is a nice prospect, and Bell could become a nice prospect over time. The middle tier is a little thin, but the system is stacked with high-ceiling first-division talent, so that makes them a top 10 for me.
Victory
is ours!!
I’m wondering what he defines as “middle tier” cause if it’s like B- and B prospects, then I’d argue we have plenty of those, and still lacking at the top end (B+, A-, and A prospects).
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, whose grading?
We’ve been over this before – iirc Sickels calls almost nobody an A, and even B indicates a pretty solid prospect (i.e., future ML regular for at least a few years).
I’d say that everyone mentioned by Parks is borderline B+ or better, even per Sickels (he may not specifically call them that, but I mean by his standards). But between Marte/Allie and our next-best prospects (Sanchez? Dickerson? McPherson?) there’s a pretty big gap.
My sense of our system right now is a ton of C and C+ guys, and then a nice handful of B+ and A- guys (and Taillon and Heredia could prove As in a couple more years).
how about this number: 49
thats what BA ranked TSanchez on their top100 at the beginning of 2011.
hes not even ranked in the eastern league top 20 now.
sigh.
When
I think middle tier, I think B- and B prospects. Jason Parks, via the above quote, states the middle tier is thin. That surprises me considering I think that is one of the strengths of our farm system.
Either way, Parks’s endorsement is good to hear.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
I’d say Taillon, Cole, Marte, and Heredia are B+ or above. After that I’d say
Bell
Grossman
McPherson
Sanchez are locks to be B or B- and
Allie
Curry
Dickerson
Cunningham all have a decent shot to get a B or B- grade
Guys like Kingham and Cain are darkhorses for a B or B- grade.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
on the first 4, i guess parks agrees (even though i don't on Heredia)
and Bell and possibly McPherson and Sanchez.
Grossman has even chance of being C+ (although it seems like Sickels likes him quite a bit), and I m guessing none of Allie, Curry, Dickerson or Cunningham will be in the Bs.
Kingham and Cain are also unclear. But I think that fits in with my general notion that there’s strength, but there’s a large grey area.
Well
again we are picking at nits as to what “mid-tier” really means.
I feel like we have 3 or 4 elite prospects (depends on how you feel about Heredia). For sake or argument let’s say we have 3, Taillon, Cole, and Marte.
I’d argue our four through say.. ten range (4-10) is really, really good, compared to league-wide. My top 10 are as follows with letter grades.
These grades are both preliminary and current, and I reserve the right to change them wildly as I see fit.
1. Taillon A
2. Cole A-
3. Marte B+
4. Heredia B+
5. Bell B
6. Sanchez B
7. Grossman B
8. Cunningham B-
9. McPherson B-
10 Dickerson B-
I’m personally low on McPherson and high on Grossman and Cunningham. I think Sickels grades will be fairly similar looking at the overall numbers but maybe I’m crazy.
Looking at that “mid-tier”, I think it’s really good. Now if he’s talking about 8-15, then I guess the 11-15 is kinda meh, but I still think it’s fairly solid..
Allie
Kingham
Curry
Locke etc, etc.
I’m just rambling at this point by the way.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
your list is probably similar to Parks'
except he probably has the 6-10 guys on your list a grade lower or so. Anyway, I see the point wrt Parks, I just wanted your thoughts on mid-tier prospects with the Bucs.
I think
our mid-tier depth is solid, and it’s our lack of elite prospects, aka our mid-tier guys breaking out to be the issue.
Maybe I’m mistaken here, but I see B and B- guys as average mlb players if everything goes well. Clearly there are guys that are in that range right now that could easily jump into the B+, A-, and A range, and then could become an impact mlb player. Josh Bell comes to mind. Starling Marte did that over the past year.
I just don’t see us having a very hard time winning the NL central in 2015-2020 if our current farm system only produces 3 or 4 impact players. I think it has the potential to do that, and a strong mid-tier gives us the opportunity to find ourselves with a strong upper-tier in a few years, plus provide us plenty of league-average (or around there) players.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree wrt Bell and Marte
It’s the ones after that I don’t agree with. Guys like Sanchez, Grossman, McPherson, Cunningham, Dickerson will need to keep improving to be average ML players, and they have significant step-forwards they need to make to achieve that, which is why I have them lower than you. You (if I understand correctly) think they are likely to make that adjustment, I think they are likely not to
Well
it’s hard to group them together like that..
I agree improvement is clearly needed for them to all be average ML players. None of them have that floor right now. Sanchez is probably the closest, and Cunningham the furthest.
I just expect improvement from every player. In my opinion, if all players in that group, follow a positive, yet “normal” development path, have the talent and ability to be average ML players, despite their differences in floor and ceiling. Clearly that won’t happen; they all won’t develop in that manner.
If you consider these 5 guys, I’d say standard expectations would be 0-1 become better than average, 1-2 become average and 3-5 bust or become bench players. Obviously this sample size is small enough all 5 (100%) could bust or 5 (100%) could become above-average or better players. It’s a tiny chance (with the former having a better likelihood), but the chances would decrease even more the larger the sample size.
Out of these 5 players, I’d say Sanchez has the best floor, followed by Grossman. Cunningham has the best ceiling, and after that everyone has a similar ceiling for whatever reason. Cunningham also has the worst floor by a mile though.
Again, thinking while typing, that may be the issue with our mid-tier. It’s too floor based. If you add Heredia, Bell, and maybe a guy like Kingham into the mid-tier that changes, but upside is lacking in the 5 guys we named.
For the record, I think Jeff Locke could be included into this group as a B- grade, because of his floor, isn’t crazy. Not a guarantee, just being thorough.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If B means average ML players, wouldn’t someone like Locke need to be in that discussion?
I was thinking B has a decent chance to be above average, with probability to be simply average… while a C prospect has a decent shot at being an average player.
My thinking was that it had more to do with ceiling rather than probability…
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
McCutchenIsTheTruth
said this much better than I above… damn work getting in the way of my responses.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
Well
that’s good. Pirates win!
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You aren't weighting floor enough
an average MLB player in AA/AAA can be a B or B-. McPherson is an example of this. A guy who projects to be average but is in A ball is a C or C+ prospect imo. Cain and Curry are probably examples of this.
hmm and I think you’re way too low on Allie. I’m an Allie hater since he was drafted but I can’t see him as less than a B- based on upside alone. We knew he was raw; 30 innings this year shouldn’t change anyone’s opinion all that much.
I'm not
weighing floor enough? What do you mean? I’m a floor guy. That’s what I have Allie as a C+. His upside is fantastic, but his floor is so low and so likely I can’t go any higher right now.
As for McPherson, I just don’t like McPherson that much. Reminds me too much of Rudy Owens. His floor certainly isn’t a MLB average player right now. I’m not sure its even a #5 starter.
I do appreciate your input though, and its good to have differing opinions.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
“Maybe I’m mistaken here, but I see B and B- guys as average mlb players if everything goes well.”
This is what I was responding to. I don’t think this can be wrong as long as you establish some sort of baseline, which you have.
What I meant though was that if a guy has average MLB upside, he only gets that full B or B- grade if he’s close to MLB-ready, otherwise they should be C or C+ guys until they’ve established a higher floor by showing something in the upper levels.
But now I’ve confused myself and I’m not really sure what the point of it was.
Er
not necessarily. The way I see it (let’s just use B instead of B- and B) for a player to get a B, average floor, ceiling, and the likelihood of both, he should become an average MLB player assuming good, but normal/expected progression.
Basically they progress by getting better and better slowly, but there’s no real helium. An example would be if ZVR adds a few mph to his fastball, polishes his command and secondaries, and emerges as a #4 starter over the next few years. That would be a favorable outcome, but not unexpected. An unexpected, helium effect would be if he suddenly saw a 6-7 mph spike on his fastball, and he mastered a changeup and it becomes a plus-plus pitch to go with a plus curveball, making him a #1 starter. That would be somewhat unexpected (although hoped for).
So seeing progression similar to the first scenario, I see a guy like Kyle McPherson ending up as a #3-4 starter. That’s the median for him. He also has a high floor and a low (relatively speaking) ceiling, so even though a “B” is his median grade he does have some variance.
On the other hand, I’d say the median for a guy like Cunningham is also a B, but he just has alot more variance. His floor is much lower, which is his never advances past AA (a level McPherson has already done well at). However, his ceiling is also much higher. He has the bat to be an all-star second baseman or a fringe all-star 3B or corner outfielder, and that doesn’t require helium. His median is similar to that of McPherson’s, it just comes with a different floor and ceiling and alot more variance.
So I’d disagree that a guy must show a high floor to be more than a C or C+, he just needs to show a considerable ceiling as well.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Cunningham doesn’t project as an average player though. He projects to either be above average-awesome or a complete bust.
You said average if everything goes well. That isn’t Jarek, cause like you just said, he has a far higher ceiling than McPherson.
I guess
so maybe my original definition of a B prospect isn’t really how I think.
I’m just trying to average ceiling and floor. A “B” prospect to me is one who’s median outcome is a average mlb player.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 6, 2011 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
I take your point about Cunningham’s likely outcomes, but he could still be average. Let’s say his agility doesn’t let him stick in the MI, and so he becomes a 3B.
As I always point out, the average 2B hits exactly as well art the average 3B, but it is true that the best-hitting 3Bs hit better than the best-hitting 2Bs. Say his power comes along, but he never quite walks enough. He controls his Ks, but his OBP is lower than you’d like. But he has power, and his glove works at 3B, and now you’ve got an average player.
Point being, there are so many components to any player’s game that even very talented guys can have a flaw that keeps them closer to average than exceptional, without torpedoing their careers. Hell, look at Cedeno – he’s got so much defensive talent that, even with a bat that never quite produces and his famous mental lapses, he’s still close to being a league-average SS. Look at him as a prospect or a rookie, and you’d say “the glove plays, if he can hit some, he’s an above average SS.” But the bat’s not his fatal flaw, it’s his head.
[Obviously, he’s a better player if he hits more, but that’s true of everyone ever except for Ruth and Barry Juice; my point is that the bat is adequate for an SS with elite D; but because Ronny makes dumb mistakes with the glove, the D remains sub-elite, and you’d wish he hit a bit more]
I was
gonna write this exactly actually, but just went with the easy and short answer.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 6, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh
That’ll probably be the case this time next year, but Bell needs to prove something to me first. I still think that Tony, from watching him and reading scouting reports, can be a fringe all-star catcher when you consider the entire package, similar to Yadier Molina. I think too much stock is being put into a very bad year because I think the injury factor is being overstated. His jaw was broken, he lost significant weight/strength, and it had to be hard for him to step back into the batter’s box mentally.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
That’ll probably be the case this time next year, but Bell needs to prove something to me first.
The top ten talents in a draft class are usually good for at least a B+ from Sickels, even sight unseen.
I still think that Tony, from watching him and reading scouting reports, can be a fringe all-star catcher when you consider the entire package, similar to Yadier Molina
Nothing would say that he couldn’t if he were a B-. It’d just be less likely.
I'm
not really sure what you are trying to argue here. These are my grades. Sickels’s grades may be similar, but I wasn’t trying to guess his.
Furthermore, I didn’t see Bell, nor do I think Sickels say Bell as a top 10 talent from last years draft class.
On Sanchez, I’m probably too high on him gradewise, as BK pointed out. My grades are probably half a grade too high in some cases either way. I’d move Sanchez, Grossman, and Dickerson down a notch.
Sanchez B-
Grossman B-
Dickerson C+
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Furthermore, I didn’t see Bell, nor do I think Sickels say Bell as a top 10 talent from last years draft class.
Sickels really likes Bell. He didn’t explicitly say that he was a top 10 talent, but he described Bell as “a switch-hitting Jason Heyward” and said that he has an “unusually strong positive gut feeling” about Bell, so it seems like a reasonable inference.
Fair
enough. I just saw no where that had Bell in their top 10 (except for the Pirates themselves who allegedly had him at 6).
Judging those comments by Sickels a B+ does sound likely. Glad we have him either way. I’m just hoping he come out and crushes the ball, mandating a A- or A grade pre-2013.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 6, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I would put Bell behind Marte/Allie.
Also with a strong AFL, Grossman could be in that tier with Sanchez/Dickerson/McPherson no?
A top 10 of:
Cole
Taillon
Heredia
Marte
Allie
Bell
Sanchez
McPherson/Dickerson/Grossman/some of the pitchers brought up this year that may still have eligibility but am too lazy to look at…
Doesn’t look too shabby to me… a TON of high end talent in that group IMO… not to mention the {insert one of the projectable right handers of previous drafts}’s of the system who are still in fastball control mode… say new editions to that list a la Holmes… and the production from our bump in international budget and the system looks to be in great shape.
I don’t understand the fixation on individual lists as the system can only be gauged as a system.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
and i dont care
just like i dont for the BA lists. I will care when we are a top 10 ML team, and I wont need a list for it.
Top 8
:P
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Oct 5, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It has been apparent for a long time, that the Pirates simply do not have people who know and recognize baseball talent. Technology simply is not going to get it done.
It has been apparent for a long time, that the Pirates simply do not have people who know and recognize baseball talent.
That’s an interesting (and somewhat problematic) statement, given the nearly-complete turnover at the top of the scouting department since the end of Littlefield’s time in charge. If it’s been “apparent” for what most people would consider “a long time”, then a large part of that window covers decisions made by people who are no longer employed by the club, or are no longer employed in the same capacity. So what, exactly, are you analyzing?
"Florida State League Nobody"
Perhaps, but I just happened to see on the FSL site that the Marauders had 4 of top 10 in OPS this season (R. Cabrera, Grossman, A. Santos and Elevys Gonzalez).
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
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