Arizona Fall League: Robbie Grossman Keeps Hitting

by Charlie Wilmoth on Oct 7, 2011 1:58 AM EDT

On the third day of Arizona Fall League action, Robbie Grossman was the only Pirates hitter to play. He went 1-for-4 with a double and a walk, as his nice AFL start continued.

Mike Colla pitched 1.2 innings for Mesa, allowing an unearned run while striking out two and walking one. There's still no word on when Gerrit Cole's AFL debut will be.

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Now is a wonderful time to trade Grossman

Frankly, we don’t need more center fielders, and Grossman’s value just keeps going up. I would suggest packaging him with some minor prospects for a MLB third baseman.

by rennais94 on Oct 7, 2011 8:41 AM EDT reply actions

how many people still see grossman as a CF?

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions

At any outfield position, we have an an absolute logjam of talent to get rid of in 2 years

Marte, McCutchen, Tabata, Presley, Grossman

McCutchen and Tabata are untouchable, for obvious reasons.

That leaves Marte, Presley and Grossman available, and I’d argue that all of them are currently about as valuable as they are going to be (except Marte, and he’s a legitimate top prospect). I think we need to get rid of one of them this offseason for some MLB-ready talent at a corner infield position.

by rennais94 on Oct 7, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions

no one is untouchable

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions

well, Cole/Taillon/Heredia are untouchable

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions

the best way to get MLB ready talent to the Burgh is to trade Cutch

Cutch could help bring us someone like Bumgarner.
Grossman could help bring us Hochevar.

see the difference?

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions

obviously

we need to package grossman. how about with locke and matt hague, or even tony sanchez? Guaranteed to bring back talent.

by rennais94 on Oct 7, 2011 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions

yeah, Hochevar and Melky Cabrera

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions

tabata's pretty untouchable

if he falters, nobody wants that contract. and if he doesn’t falter…. why trade him?

McCutchen is untouchable because he’s a star that we control for bargain price, and he’s pretty much the face of the franchise. The kid just put up a 5.5 WAR season (with some estimates much higher). Why trade him?

Grossman is on his way to being a top prospect. Marte already is one. Presley is showing that he should have been one. The three are basically an instant outfield, just add water. For all the lack of depth the Pirates have at some positions, they have too much in the outfield.

by rennais94 on Oct 7, 2011 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions

would the REAL Andrew McCutchen please stand up?!?!

1st half McCutchen – damn near untouchable (only because no one would pay what it would take to get him)

2nd half McCutchen – the .219 BA is pretty touchable, he of the 98 OPS+

by insane_sanity on Oct 7, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions

the REAL McCutchen

His wRC+ has been between 125 and 129 in each of his three seasons. I don’t see how there could be any confusion about how good the “real” Cutch is. (hint: really, really good)

by epoc on Oct 7, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

understandable point

I still would like to know why he hit .216 the 2nd half of the year — I know they were seriously busting him in, but it almost seemed like he was trying to jack the ball all the time instead of remaining patient as he did earlier in the year.

There just seemed to be a TOTALLY different approach at the plate…and the .216 (not .219) BA the 2nd half of the year only reinforced that to me.

by insane_sanity on Oct 7, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions

it was definately a different approach at the plate. and yes, he tried to jack every hittable pitch to him, even with 2 strikes

i know how everyone has griped about how our team strikes out so much; Cutch struck out more than anyone. (walked more too)

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions

went and looked some of this up

cutch’s K rate in september was indeed 10% higher than his career numbers (26.3 vs 16.3).

his flyball rate went up 6% in that month as well vs his career (45.3 vs 39.5) which does make it seem like he was looking for a HR much more often.

by johnnycuff on Oct 7, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions

i wouldnt say he was up looking for HRs

but he looked like he was swinging at 2 strike pitches exactly the same as 2 ball pitches

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions

I do agree that his approach was very flyball/pull/power-centric and that that caused some problems, but his “struggles” in the second half were also due to a .251 BAbip, which is unsustainably low. Some of that is because of the extra flyballs, but a lot of it is just bad luck. I don’t think it’s anything to worry about.

by epoc on Oct 7, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions

tabata’s pretty untouchable

if he falters, nobody wants that contract

Actually because the contract is so darn friendly, i imagine someone might be willing to take a chance.

if he doesn’t falter…. why trade him?

Because he can bring back a haul, and we can replace him…

McCutchen is untouchable because he’s a star that we control for bargain price

Which is why he’s valuable to other teams. If he doesn’t sign a longer term contract, we should be looking to trade him in 2-3 years.

Grossman is on his way to being a top prospect. Marte already is one. Presley is showing that he should have been one. The three are basically an instant outfield

I dont care terribly about their prospect status, but if the FO decides it means they can play as well as a Cutch, it makes them less expendable, not more. It means they will be ready to contribute in 2-3 years, at which time we should be pushing hard to trade Cutch/Tabata. Or, just wait for them to hit FA, and replace them with these guys.

by BurgherKing on Oct 7, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions

question for you BK...

if Marte was ready, would you trade Cutch for someone like Bumgarner?
Or maybe for a couple/few VERY good prospects?

i, for one, would do it. and i wouldnt wait 3 years either.

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions

I think I would want more than Bumgarner

Without looking at his actual numbers, but didn’t he struggle mightily at the beginning of this past year?

by pskell02 on Oct 7, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions

lets put it this way:

if Bumgarner wasnt on the Giants, he would be the ACE for a vast majority of the teams in MLB.

Bumgarner is the %$#! You trade for him, since the Giants need offense, and sign him long term. Hopefully he and Cole become a lethal LH/RH combo.

oooooooooooo, im tingling

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions

i wouldnt

although i m v tempted… i dont like Bumgarner enough, but that’s exactly the kind of thing i’d be looking for…

by BurgherKing on Oct 7, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions

well, we couldnt get a matt moore

i mentioned Bumgarner because the Giants have a glut of pitchers… they also have Verdugo and Surkamp, both LHP, waiting in the wings.

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

i wouldnt consider surkamp as close to bumgarner

dont know anything about verdugo.

Also, we could have gotten a guy like Matt Moore, given his numbers before 2011. While that guy is still darn valuable, teams would trade that in a heartbeat for a McCutchen (unless they were convinced he would turn into Moore-v. 2011).

by BurgherKing on Oct 7, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Moore has been dominant for 3 seasons now.

mccutchen probably would have gotten him a year or so ago, especially since Upton isnt their long term answer in CF.

but Moore is to the Rays what Cole/Taillon is to the Pirates: untouchable

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions

mccutchen probably would have gotten him a year or so ago

That’s the only point i was making, not a knock on Moore

by BurgherKing on Oct 7, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions

bumgarner

Bumgarner is also a pitcher. I don’t think I’d ever trade a superstar hitter straight up for a superstar pitcher (even including the extra year of service time in this case).

by epoc on Oct 7, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions

i totally would

what can i say? i like have an ACE on the staff, and the fact that hes left handed and still affordable, BOOM!!

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions

I think that we should entertain all offers for any one of our outfielders, with the caveat being McCutchen better bring a haul of top prospects or a couple of mlb ready star players. McCutchen is a player that can be the face of a team (with the exception of a few teams like the Yankees and Red Sox who already have plenty of superstars).

I am not saying we should be shopping McCutchen at this point in time but if someone gives us an offer we should listen. Maybe McCutchen could bring us some of those talented Pitchers from Texas’ minor leagues and a Profar.

by Cainyoudigit on Oct 7, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions

YOU ARE EXACTLY ON THE MONEY!

we dont want to shop Cutch, but listening couldnt hurt.

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions

he's not a CF

Not even the Pirates see him as a CF. I don’t understand why so many people fail to realize that Grossman doesn’t play CF. He hasn’t played CF regularly for the last two years. If he was a CF, I’d like him much, much more.

by epoc on Oct 7, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions

I don’t understand why so many people fail to realize that Grossman doesn’t play CF. He hasn’t played CF regularly for the last two years.

He still plays there occasionally (15 games last year), so it’s not a totally crackpot idea.

I think he’s a RF in the long-term, though.

by Vlad on Oct 7, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions

Crackpot or not, he hasn’t played CF regularly for two years. You join every informed person on the planet in knowing that he’s not a CF in either the short- or long-term.

by epoc on Oct 7, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Is he a RF instead of a LF?

looking at him from a “how-does-he-fit-at-PNC-Park” mindset — does his speed/arm play better in LF at PNC, or RF? (or are we saying LF is a lock…so let’s prepare him for RF?)

by insane_sanity on Oct 7, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions

Probably depends on who our incumbent outfielders are at the time he’s ready for the bigs.

by Vlad on Oct 7, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions

He could probably handle either, but I’d like him better in RF. His arm is above-average but his range isn’t great.

by epoc on Oct 7, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions

agree

Great time to trade Grossman. He could headline a package that brings a solid ML return. (Wouldn’t include Sanchez in the package, though, as you suggest below. Sell high, not low.)

by epoc on Oct 7, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions

Grossman should pick up a 1B mitt

by azibuck on Oct 7, 2011 9:29 AM EDT reply actions

i see what youre sayin'

cant say i dont disagree with you either. good call.

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions

BA is correct about Grossman. If he were capable of playing CF on a daily basis he would be highly ranked. As it stands he is a corner OF’er. He will need to continue to develope power to be a high end player as a corner OF’er. I compare Grossman to Trot Nixon, but with a little better speed.

by The Dog on Oct 7, 2011 11:23 AM EDT reply actions

thats not a bad comparison

except that Nixon was more highly regarded when drafted, and that he underperformed greatly until reaching AAA.

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions

I’m not saying that he is progressing at the same pace as Trot. I’m saying he is going to be a Trot type player. He has the same mentality, and projectables as Trot.

by The Dog on Oct 7, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions

hey man, i was agreeing with ya...

>:-D

by white angus on Oct 7, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions

If he ends up having Trot Nixon’s career, that’d be just fine with me.

by Vlad on Oct 7, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah lets trade Cutch

maybe we’ll get a deal like we did for Bay. NH has a great track record of acquiring major league ready talent. LOL

Unbelievable what is discussed on here. Cutch isn’t even in his prime and you are thinking about trading him? And forget about Marte taking over for Cutch. You might want to look at his walk rate before you start penciling him in as a regular.

Grossman looks like he’s developing well. Mid 2013 looks like when he will arrive. Who knows how the team looks by then. Not sold on any of the players that played LF or RF this year.

by JCBucs on Oct 8, 2011 1:15 AM EDT reply actions

Yeah lets trade Cutch maybe we’ll get a deal like we did for Bay

Cutch is, of course, free of many of the factors that limited Bay’s desirability as a trade commodity. He’s younger, and a good defender instead of a terrible one, and under control for more than a year and a half, and not suffering from significant knee or shoulder problems, and much less expensive. But why let reality get in the way of a good rant?

by Vlad on Oct 10, 2011 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions