Langosch: Pirates Could Trade Starling Marte
by Charlie Wilmoth on Nov 10, 2011 11:53 AM EST
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PrintJust saw this note from Jenifer Langosch on the possibility of trading Starling Marte:
The Bucs have glaring holes to fill this offseason, led by their need to find a first baseman, catcher and shortstop ... If you look through the list of free agents available at any of these positions (not including the top tier of elite players), the options are not especially intriguing ...
General manager Neal Huntington has expressed a willingness to trade prospects for the right return, and there were whispers that Marte was going to be made available back at the Trade Deadline if the Pirates had found the right package. He is still not untouchable.
I don't see any way this can possibly go wrong.
If the Pirates can trade Marte in a good baseball move for another young player or two, fine. It's true that no one should be untouchable. But if the poor free agent market - rather than the future of the organization - has anything to do with the reason why, I mean, yikes. The Pirates had a pretty good ticket out of the free agent market, as we all know, and they didn't punch it.
Fortunately, this just seems like some dot-connecting by Langosch, as opposed to an actual piece of news. In general, I really don't want the Pirates trading prospects right now, especially not ones as good as Marte. If they have to trade an Aaron Baker to get what they need, that's one thing, but anyone better than that would be a problem, unless they can get someone young in return.
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I seriously doubt NH will deal Marte to fill a one-year gap at SS or 1B. He’s going to want pieces the team can control for many years.
by bolton on Nov 10, 2011 12:08 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’ll be the first to admit I’m wrong (after I jump off a bridge) if Huntington deals Marte for someone like Edgar Renteria.
I sense a package.
You’d need to bundle some other players with Marte possibly being the showpiece… Marte + Some C/B types could net a Jurrjens (or any of the other oft mentioned pitchers).
I don’t see an upgrade coming at SS at all via trade… either 1B or SP.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
agree again
if it happens, it will be along these lines
by white angus on Nov 10, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
If Billy Beane were to ask for...
…Marte, Allie & a C level throw in for Trevor Cahill, I’d do it and not think twice.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
I'm glad you're not running the team...
I wouldn’t trade Allie and Cain for Cahill, who will be exposed as a mediocrity as soon as he leaves Oakland, if he hasn’t been already. Career home run rate on the road is 1.10. You guys crack me up – we finally develop a blue chip prospect at a premium position and you want to give him away for, at best, a #4 starter.
by nycbucsfan on Nov 10, 2011 2:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Cahill will be a legit #1 before he's done in this league
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Cahill on the Bucs
Want to preface this by saying I feel stupid arguing about this at all since no one from Oakland or any other team will be coming here via trade any time soon and going round and round about pure hypotheticals is dumb
That said…
Cahill has a sinkerball that is, when it’s on, second to none. His problem is his control (15 wild pitches last year). He also saw his strikeout rate jump by 30 despite pitching only 11 more innings in 2011 than he did in 2010.
That tells me he’s pressing harder, trying to mix in more fastballs for more K’s.* That’s misuse by his coach. I said this season that Hurdle and Searage should station a sniper in the upper decks of PNC Park during Charlie Morton’s starts with orders to shoot if he so much as thinks about using his fastball too much.
Cahill’s raw talent at 23 is startling. I would be giddy for weeks if the Bucs landed him because imagine Ray Searage getting his hands on Charlie Morton 5 years ago…..only with MORE upside.
The last 2 seasons Cahill comes in at about a ~3.95 xFIP. That’s pretty damn good for when you’re that young and prone to wildness. He’s too prone to the longball, but again, that’s a lack of command that can be corrected.
That’s my brief for Cahill. I’ll now write a post on why I’d like to see Zombie Walter Johnson on the Bucs because they have the same odds of happening.
*-This could also be because of increased use of his curve, which is a nasty strikeout pitch, I admit
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Hold on a sec
New-style, fast zombie Walter Johnson, or Romero-style, shambling zombie Walter Johnson. Because, without the DH, I worry about the impact of the latter on our offense.
he can't hit that much worse than Ohlendorf
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 10, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Or run much slower than McKenry
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 10, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
Good, we should be trading.
I’ve said it multiple times that I’d be willing to make a monetary bet that we bring in a significant non-interim piece via trade this year.
Still no takers.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
i wont bet ya cuz im on your side with this one...
i think NH does something out of the “norm”
by white angus on Nov 10, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
I'll take that bet, Cheep Beer
But we have to set some parameters as to what the definition of a “significant non-interim piece,” is.
by Tim Wiliams on Nov 10, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Bare minimum
would have to be a starter (position or pitching) who’s still here when Cole/Taillon arrive, right?
1) Acquisition has MLB service time already (don’t want to say non-prospect in case it’s say a Yonder or something along those lines).
2) Team guaranteed service time through the 2014 season.
3) Considered a 3+ WAR player (this gets tricky if they’re super young).
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
So a half-notch better than Walker?
As long as we don’t give up too much for him, I could live with something like that, and I’m sure NH would be, too.
If Marte (or whomever) is dealt for a similarly young player, then it’s a fine move. I would be concerned if we’re dealing him for a guy one year away from FA or an older player.
I doubt that happening...
…if only because NH values his prospects so much that he’s often taken criticism for overvaluing them. He’s worked too hard to build the farm system from the ashes of the Littlefield regime to deal them for rapidly aging vets who won’t be around when Cole/Taillon arrive.
If he makes a trade, it’ll be a mutually beneficial package with another team (or anyhow one he perceives as such) receiving player(s) with multiple years of team control
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
probably with a team with a surplus at a position that we need
by white angus on Nov 10, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
hmmm
the Braves need a CF….have a surplus of SP and SS prospects
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
ehhhhhh
pitching yeah, i agree. but would pastornicky be acceptable at SS???
marte for minor?
by white angus on Nov 10, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
consensus there is pastornicky is better suited for 2b. I wouldnt mind Salcedo, Lipka or Simmons though. I doubt Simmons could be had he is flying up there chart. Salcedo looks like he is going to be a 3b BUT i honestly think he is the best of the bunch.
also i really dont like Minor. I wouldnt mind Arodys Vizcaino (not sure if spelled right). Bethancourt at C is also another possibility. I know Minor becomes our best pitcher but if were asking for Minor, id rather make this a package deal between both teams and get a little more than just him
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Salcedo COULD play SS, he is better suited for 3B. Which i still wouldnt mind having him. Lipka i thought was moved back to SS?
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
From rotowire: “Lipka’s move from shortstop to center field in Atlanta’s instructional league went well and he will start the 2012 season as a center fielder.”
Sickels
still lists him as an option at OF/SS
http://www.talkingchop.com/2011/10/12/2485738/john-sickels-2012-atlanta-braves-top-prospects
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Agree on Minor
If I’m trading someone like Marte (a high-ceiling type prospect) I want something like that in return…like Vizcaino
by NastyNate82 on Nov 10, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
Because I'd want someone as a higher ceiling if I were to trade Marte
And I think Vizcaino has that more than Minor. I think Minor looks a lot like Maholm (soft-tossing finesse lefty) which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as I think he has a higher floor.
I think you misunderstood me, Charlie
In the other thread, I was begging for made-up happy stories, not a made-up story that makes me want to curl up in a corner.
I mean it depends on
what we get. I’ve been a big proponent of not trading Marte, but if he could be packaged for good #2 starter with 3 or 4 years of control, say Trevor Cahill above AND if McCutchen is signed to a longer-term deal, then it would be a smart move. Marte hasn’t proven anything above AA, even though we (I) act like he’s a sure thing.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 10, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with Truth that he’s no sure thing. He definitely had a great Double-A season, but I’m still a little skeptical about the prospects for a right-handed batter in PNC Park who has a history of striking out five times more often than he walks. If he falls apart in Triple-A or in the majors, we’ll all be lamenting that Neal didn’t trade him when his value was at its peak.
Of course, we might end up trading an All-Star center fielder for a young pitcher who gets hurt after 15 innings. Pirate luck.
trevor cahill is not a #2 starter
there’s nothing to him besides his shiny ERA last year that we didn’t get from paul maholm.
Cahill is 23 and just scratching the surface of what he can do
Maholm is 28 and is who he is. Not that that’s a bad thing, but there’s no upside left to Maholm. Cahill’s ceiling is tremendous.
Cahill has a disgusting sinker that tends to go wild on him for stretches. Sound like Charlie Morton much? Look at what Searage did for him and then let me repeat: Cahill is 23.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Point being...
…Cahill would already be the best starter on the Pirates roster, would be a firmly entrenched #3 on most MLB pitching staffs and has the upside of a solid #1/low-end ace with the right coaching. All this at 23 and under team control for 3 more years.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
there’s nothing to him besides his shiny ERA last year that we didn’t get from paul maholm.
He’s a tiny bit better than Maholm – xFIPs in the high 3s the last two years.
To be fair
based on age, you have to assume some improvement, right?
But this borderline ace stuff sounds nuts.
Let me put it this way: I would (tentatively) endorse trading Marte for the pitcher Raybin believes Cahill to be. I have no personal opinion as to whether that describes Cahill.
My biggest concern, however, is that, with Marte gone, we risk a giant hole in CF when Cutch departs.
Admittedly borderline ace is probably an excess of enthusiasm
But based on potential alone, he’s a legit #1. Obviously you’d have to have the right staff to try & bring it out of him
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
And yes, that is the #1 concern about dealing Marte
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
not unless the team deals cutch and recieves a young outfielder in his place
remember when the team couldnt replace mclouth and his magic???
UR DOIN' IT WRONG
keep drinking, JRoth…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 10, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Attaboy.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 11, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
As long as...
you keep a slot on the DL available for him all season.
I'd trade him for Hanley
For more realistic targets in the Marlins’ doghouse, would trading him for Logan Morrison make sense? Do the Marlins hang up the phone? He and the Marlins did seem to be at loggerheads.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 10, 2011 4:07 PM EST reply actions
I guess Scott Boras says that the Marlins hang up.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 10, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
would trading him for Logan Morrison make sense?
Sure, I’d jump on that. It forces you to play Pedro out of position at third, but since we’re going to do that anyway, it’d be a nice offensive boost.
The problem with this..
at least that I see, is that the Marlins aren’t in rebuild mode. They’re pursuing Reyes, meaning they have cash to spend and want to win now.
That’s the weird thing about trading a guy like Marte, or any solid prospect for that matter. The Pirates are one of the worst teams, meaning we’re furthest from realistically competing.
Doesn’t it seem backwards to trade a prospect from an organization with a bad ML-team to an organization with a good ML-team to get an ML-ready player?
Sorry if that was confusing and worded horribly.
Doesn’t it seem backwards to trade a prospect from an organization with a bad ML-team to an organization with a good ML-team to get an ML-ready player?
It’s a little odd, but since Morrison was just a rookie last year, it’d be basically a prospect-for-prospect swap.
That said, I don’t think Florida would go for it.
It was mostly based on the idea that the Marlins might want to trade Morrison out of pique. They demoted him last year after he skipped a promotional event (on the advice of his union rep, who they also cut), and he filed a grievance against them. I don’t know how the grievance resolved, but that’s why every idiot fan (points at self) is speculating about whether their favorite team can get him on the cheap.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 10, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
His quotes after he got called back up were hilarious:
When asked if he has talked to anybody in the organization since the demotion, Morrison said, "I haven’t talked to anybody. I didn’t really care."
When asked why he believes he was send down, Morrison said, "I have no idea."
When asked how he will change, Morrison said, "I’ll be the same person."
When asked what was accomplished by him being in New Orleans for 10 days, Morrison said, "I don’t know."
When asked to describe his relationship with the organization, Morrison said, "I’m the baseball player and they provide the uniform."
by Vlad on Nov 10, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
NH knows that guys who mouth off on Twitter are the new market inefficiency
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 10, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
...
Not the worst idea you’ve ever had
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
oh, dear
That means I’ve had others which were worse.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 11, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
Trading Pedro and Marte..
..for Hanley would really open some eyes.
Atlanta
Supposedly the Bravos are looking for a CF.
I don’t know if they’re willing to “sale the farm”, but it would be a DAMN bold move for NH to move McCutchen for an abundance of high-end talent (arms + everything else). The upper-end of their farm system has some talent…
I understand the “The Braves will not part with that much talent” argument…as teams today are far less likely to deal top prospects…but then again, teams today are EVEN LESS likely to part with start players with team control remaining.
I could be totally off base here…but we could score some LEGIT arms and IF talent in a deal of this magnitude…if the Bravos are willing to dance.
wait
isnt Bourn under contract for a while longer?
by BurgherKing on Nov 11, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
damn...replied in wrong place...
I think 2012 arb, 2013 FA.
They have RF tied up with Heyward, and could run McCutchen/Bourn out there for 2012…and have McCutchen going forward?
They are one of the farm systems that has the talent to pull the deal off…at least worth kicking the tires, ya know?
by insane_sanity on Nov 11, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
A deal based around Delgado and Pastornicky..
….would be AWFULLY tempting
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
and then some
I’d still want more arms, on the high end — 2 of their 3 top guys to start with.
IMO, McCutchen’s value is amplified by the years of control.
by insane_sanity on Nov 11, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure...
…they’d give 2 out of Teheran, Delgado and Vizcaino for anybody.
Delgado, Minor, Pastornicky, Venters and a 1B prospect might be something they’d do.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
not going to disagree
but McCutchen would be an interesting conversation, nonetheless!
Damn…they’d have McCutchen/Heyward together for a few years, and they’d have the money to extend both of them.
I do agree on their reluctance of yielding 2 top arms…but I would like to be a fly on the wall if NH would make it known he’d entertain offers on McCutchen. I can imagine many teams being interested, and no knowing what a bidding war could bring for his talent.
by insane_sanity on Nov 11, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
If
we are doing this game, I’d rather call up the Rangers (who have a definite hole in CF) and ask for Profar, Perez, and Olt + a C or C+ prospect or two.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 11, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Nice proposal
I’d be more in line to try and find something to fill a hole that seems to be hardest to fill (SS).
yeah, the rangers would give up andrus instead
unless its cutch for profar straight up, the rangers arent dealing him
And I'm more in line with a quality than quantity deal for Cutch anyway
Going back to that Cards proposal from last week, it has to start with blue chippers. I don’t know Texas’ system that well beyond a few guys, but if I were to trade Cutch there, their best asset in the system would have to come back.
The
Rangers would most definitely give Profar + more for 4 cheap years of McCutchen.
He improves their team substantially over the next few years, and that’s a team that already went to the last two world series.
I feel like we hang up on Profar, Perez, Olt and say Barret Loux and Engel Beltre before they do. That’s a hell of a package, but Cutch is so valuable to us and he’s not blocking anyone. Honestly, all we need to do is extend Cutch for two of his free agency years, and we have him Tabata, and presumably Neil Walker (he will never leave Pittsburgh if you ask me) until 2017!
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 12, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
that's a straight no from me
assuming remaining pieces are filler/bullpen upside type, its not close to what I’d want.
Ya
if Delgado is the best piece, no thank you. McCutchen can command a top 5 or top 10 prospect + more.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 11, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
You really think so?
Sometimes I think we overvalue Cutch. Not knocking the guy—he’s awesome and I love him—but I really wonder if he could bring a top 10 prospect back. (I assume you mean “top 10 in all of baseball”)
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
He is very valuable as a player
and has 4 years of control left.
Dace Cameron puts together a top 50 trade value players every year. In all of the MLB, Cutch was number 6, behind Longoria, Joey Bats, Tulo, Pedroia, and J Upton. He is totally worth at least a to 10 prospect, and more.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 11, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Bryce Harper and Mike Trout were 20 and 21 on that list
They’ve surely climbed since then with continued good performance, but still, if you told rational Angels fans that Mike Trout would have Cutch’s career (so far) I don’t think they’d be disappointed.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 11, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
and more…
as i’ve pointed out in every thread where this has come up, this is one of the reasons you don’t see such trades. The other team would have to give up a heck of a lot!
Yes
Raybin. Much more. I honestly couldn’t tell you when the last player similar to Cutch was traded. 4 years of control left on a CF who’s a top 15-20 player in all of baseball right now and still hasn’t entered his prime with no discernible hole in his game.
He better command alot more or we need to hang up.
For example, the Tigers got Miggy Cabrera (and Dontrelle Willis) and gave away Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller, two top 10 prospects via Baseball America that year PLUS four more prospects.
Miggy also only had 3 years of control instead of 4.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 11, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
And as good of a hitter as Cabrera was
He was eating his way off of 3B at the time of that trade (if he hadn’t done so already). Cutch gives you very good offense at a defensive position.
I’m definitely with you on this if they were to trade Cutch: he must command the other team’s best asset (or 2 or 3 depending on their system. If he’s going to Tampa, Matt Moore has to come back. If he’s going to Texas, Profar has to come back. With what the other team is getting (in terms of production from Cutch and how cheap he is right now) thats what he would require.
and that also shows why trades like this are so often a bad idea
as the Marlins basically got bupkis from it. They got one averagish year as a starter from Miller, parts of three subpar seasons from Maybin, and traded them both (though Maybin made it clear that they bailed on him too quickly). I don’t think the other prospects amounted to anything either.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 11, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
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