Could Market Be Favorable For Joel Hanrahan Trade?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Nov 14, 2011 1:40 AM EST
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GM Alex Anthopoulos of the Jays is having a hard time meeting the demands of free agent relievers, and the Jays might decide to trade for someone they can use as a closer. (I use the rather wishy-washy "someone they can use as a closer" because the Jays are smart and probably don't overvalue closing experience.)
We’ve been told that the Jays have been shocked at the dollars that agents are asking for their closers.
Does that mean making a trade for a closer is the Jays best option? Probably.
What is the Jays’ surplus?
"Prospects," said Anthopoulos, who along with assistant GM Tony LaCava head to Milwaukee on Monday for the annual GMs meetings looking to lay a framework for off-season deals.
Some of y'all were upset that the Pirates' run at contention in July kept them from dealing Joel Hanrahan when the Padres were getting a king's ransom for Mike Adams, but perhaps the Bucs will get another bite at the apple this winter. The enormous contract Jonathan Papelbon is getting from the Phillies might convince other teams besides just the Jays to try to find high-leverage relievers elsewhere.
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According to Bluebird Banter
The Jays top four prospects are:
1. Kyle Drabek RHP – not gonna happen
2. Brett Lawrie 2B – offense looks promising, might be ready in 2012 but we already have one. Could he play elsewhere?
3. Zach Stewart RHP – Ready to contend for a starting spot in 2012?
4. J.P. Arencibia C – Love it, but IMO, unlikely the Jays would part w/him. They have two other Cs in their top 10, Travis D’Arnaud (8), and Carlos Perez (9).
Otherwise, they have what we have — pitching. I’d think we’d want people who can fill immediate (2012-2013) needs. Just my opinion.
Lino Donoso
arencibia isnt a prospect any longer, and neither is drabek
d’arnaud will be a top 10 prospect in all of baseball, so hes untouchable. you have deck mcgwire, anthony gose… theres some talent in their system still
I don’t want Gose. He can run like the wind, but he doesn’t really know how to play baseball at this point. Speed guys with bad K rates are super-scary.
I’ll have to respectfully disagree with Vlad on Gose. I love him. I followed him closely when he was in the Phillies’ system and I put a future grade of 50 on both his average and his power (strong forearms). Combined with grades of at least 70 on his arm and speed, that makes him a very good player. I thought he was the best of the players the Astros received for Oswalt, and I couldn’t believe they traded him for Wallace.
I do agree with Vlad that the K rate could derail Gose, but I’m cutting him some slack because he has always been young for his league (he was only 20 in Double-A), and his speed from the left side should boost his BABIPs. He’ll never win a batting title, but .260-.270 with some walks and 20 homers is a good center fielder, and I believe he can reach that.
his speed from the left side should boost his BABIPs
It’s already doing that – which is part of the reason why he’s so scary, IMO. In four pro seasons, his lowest BABIP is a .324 in 2009… and he’s still only hitting .250-.260.
He’s young, so youneverknow, but I see him ending up as a Gary Pettis type with more pop. That’s not useless, but it’s not something I’d give up Hanrahan to get, either.
You would win much more money betting against prospects such as Gose than betting in favor of prospects like him. He’s an exception for me.
when you put it that way
I’m not a fan of trading Joel Hanrahan for a guy “you would win much more money betting against”.
just sayin’…
by insane_sanity on Nov 14, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
ha
Of course, you’d also probably win more money betting against a prospect such as Josh Bell than betting in favor of a prospect such as Josh Bell. Just sayin’.
ah
but we’re not talking about trading Hanrahan for Bell, are we?
No…we’re talking about trading him for Gose…and your description of Gose as a “prospect” was less than stellar.
by insane_sanity on Nov 14, 2011 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
FTR
although no one will care, I’m a fan of Gose. Ridiculous speed and glove, plus he takes a walk. Even if he never corrects his K and average issues, he still has decent pop and that package as a whole will make him valuable.
A good comp would be Chris Young with less pop, more walks, and better defense. That’s a damn good player.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 15, 2011 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
“but we’re not talking about trading Hanrahan for Bell, are we?”
No, it was a general comment that most prospects ultimately fail.
And what part of “I love him” is less than stellar (lol)? A .270 hitter with 20 homers, a bunch of stolen bases and a legitimate Gold Glove is pretty good. I just acknowledge that Vlad has a point. Gose is far from “can’t miss” (and so is Bell).
Whoa
I like Walker, but I’ll take Lawrie 10 times out of 10.
And
Glove
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 14, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
That may be their 2010 prospect list
Actually, Lawrie was moved to 3B when he was called up (and may have played at 3B also in AAA).
Now, when you see what he has done so far in the majors, If I’m the Jays, I’m not giving him up for a closer.
And Arrencibia is filling in the catcher spot until D’Arnaud comes up. If TOR must get rid of one of them, Arrencibia will be gone in a heart beat.
To put Arrencibia’s 2011 performance into perspective :
Arrencibia .219/.282/.438 with 23 HR in 443 AB
Barajas.. : .230/.287/.430 with 16 HR in 305 AB
With the packages offered for established closers these days, 5 years of Arrencibia seems a little short in my mind.
by From France on Nov 14, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
If they were to offer Lawrie for Hammer
as NH, I would hang up the phone and be on the first plane to Toronto to sign that contract.
Best case scenario, move Walker to 3b and Pedro to 1b. Worst case, they teach Brett to play 1B if they are adamant about not moving Walker.
I'm not sure Anthopolous would have the offer completely out of his mouth..
….before Huntington would say “Yes! Agreed! No takebacks!”
If AA would be so goddamn dumb as to offer a special talent like Lawrie for ANY closer, no matter how good, he should be pilloried by the good citizens of Toronto.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
he should be pilloried by the good citizens of Toronto.
Unless said “special talent” plays his sport with a stick and skates strapped to his feet, I hardly think the good citizens of Toronto give two shakes of a lamb’s fluffy little butt about him.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
I know quite a few Toronto fans and know for sure there would be some serious anger. Don’t forget that the kid is Canadian. We all know how much they cherish their stars (rising stars in this case), even if it is baseball.
I agree
I know a few Toronto fans (well, sort of know—Twitter, that kind of thing) and I think they’d be piiisssseedddd.
I’ll be generous to them and allow NH to make a Walker/Hanrahan for Lawrie trade :)
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
there will be riots
I know, i’d start a few =)
Rent this for cheap!!
by Bowling_Guy25 on Nov 14, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
that list will be updated during the offseason
that was for the start of last season
Rent this for cheap!!
by Bowling_Guy25 on Nov 14, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
They’d never in a million years get Yunel Escobar for Hanrahan, and Drabek is a pretty unlikely haul return for both teams. The Jays wouldn’t trade him coming off such a down year, and the Pirates shouldn’t deal Hanrahan for a kid who can’t find the strike zone with a GPS.
Lawrie is probably untouchable, unless the Pirate being traded is McCutchen. Arencibia also goes nowhere, the same probably for Zach Stewart.
Maybe Travis d’Arnaud or Anthony Gose would be the centerpiece.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
by Suffering Buc on Nov 14, 2011 6:48 AM EST up reply actions
arencibia could be had was easier than d'arnaud...
travis, right now, is arguably the best catching prospect in the game.
First, let me point out an error: Stewart went to Chicago last summer Frasor trade, not to Toronto from Chicago, so he’s out anyway.
On d’Arnaud, I think that’s a stretch. He strikes out a lot, doesn’t walk much, and apparently isn’t in the best of shape (though I can’t testify to that personally). If you consider Montero a catching prospect (which is pretty iffy), he’s better. I’d also think about putting Mesoraco from Cincy above d’Arnaud, although you have a point. I’m having to think pretty hard to name guys better than him.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
by Suffering Buc on Nov 14, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
I’m having to think pretty hard to name guys better than him.
Mesoraco and Grandal, I’d say. That’s about it. Maybe Betancourt in ATL, though he’s a long-ass way from the majors.
I could maybe almost see someone making a case for Hector Sanchez…
Very good Schide!
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 15, 2011 1:32 AM EST up reply actions
SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 15, 2011 7:00 AM EST up reply actions
In the immortal words of Inspector Clouseau
not any more
Boston
I think Boston is another option but I don’t think they have much to offer that we need. I’m sure Iglesias is off limits and we don’t need Reddick.
I’m not a fan of trading Hammer but if we do it has to be for a haul.
Yinzers uber alles
Ya
Red Sox don’t really have anything to offer. Maybe Lavarnway and some stuff. Not sure what.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 15, 2011 1:32 AM EST up reply actions
Kyle Drabek
was hurt severely last season with his lack of command.
I’d like to have him but he is gonna need a year in AAA to right himself.
We need immediately starting pitcher help. I don’t think Toronto has enough goods for us to give up on.
Forget about Lowrie and Gose.
Whether it is Toronto or not...
Trading Hanrahan is the most obvious way to obtain the upgrades that the Pirates need. The Pirates should be planning on dealing Hanrahan and only deviate from that if they return isn’t reasonable.
As discussed above, the cost of closers right now is high and the Bucs need to take advantage of that. This should be the rough equivalent of the Tony Pena trade with something of a discount for the other team since the Hammer is a relief pitcher.
And a few quick thoughts on the Papelbon signing with Philly. Few if any relievers are worth that kind of jack. Papelbon not only isn’t one of them, but I don’t think he is even in the discussion. He isn’t that good. I am frustrated that the Phillies spend this kind of money when – as I understand it – they are in marked violation of MLB’s debt rules (they are carrying too much of it). I know I heard this reported in the first half of last season, but if anybody can shed any light on this it would be appreciated – especailly since a new labor deal appears to be imminent.
Good day.
I am frustrated that the Phillies spend this kind of money when – as I understand it – they are in marked violation of MLB’s debt rules (they are carrying too much of it).
You have to understand that Bud Selig and MLB don’t care that Philly is in violation of the debt rules, for a number of reasons:
1. They are a large, East Coast TV market.
2. They are a large, East Coast TV market that is shown regularly on ESPN.
3. They are a large, East Coast TV market that is shown regularly on ESPN and has been a regular contender for the NL title, meaning that, in any given year, a Phillies/Yankees or Phillies/Red Sox World Series is a distinct possibility.
When in doubt, follow the $$$ to see how MLB makes its decisions.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
Phuck the Phillies.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 14, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
hey, if they move hanrahan, there will be even more money available for the chris capuanos of the world!
by Captain Easychord on Nov 14, 2011 8:30 AM EST reply actions
Hopefully hes gone before opening day.
We don’t know what sort of offers are on the table, but if its anything like the Mike Adams deal NH should take it immediately. Not trading Hanrahan at the deadline was a huge mistake, relievers are too volatile to hang on to for a rebuilding team.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Nov 14, 2011 8:31 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I hope we don't get Drabek...
…only so we don’t have to hear Greg Brown make comparsions to Doug Drabek and the “glory” years ad naseum. He does it enough already. We don’t need any more reasons for him to.
by yeah, im a jerk on Nov 14, 2011 8:46 AM EST reply actions
Don't you have a mute button on your remote?
I use mine all of the time when the Pirate announcers start babbling about something no one in their right mind could care about.
by WestCoastBuc on Nov 14, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
An Important Note on Hanrahan Trade Talks
Pirates Promotional Schedule reveals he’s set to have his own bobble head day this year. Of course that doesn’t mean he’s untouchable, but you gotta think that means they planned to have him back.until at least the trade deadline next season. If not, why not have gone with a Tabata bobble head since he’s signed for a while.
by ATribeCalledGreg on Nov 14, 2011 9:00 AM EST reply actions
Doesn't necessarily mean anything.
All they need to do is promote some other guy who looks like Hanrahan, and they’re set.
I guess Grilli with a beard would be close enough.
by ATribeCalledGreg on Nov 14, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
"I need you in my office, Grills"
“What is it, Coach? I know I got a little elevated last night, but I’ve been work-”
“It’s not that. I need you to stop shaving.”
“Huh?”
“Oh, and we’re changing your uniform number. And, uh, the spelling of your last name.”
by JRoth95 on Nov 14, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
rec.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 14, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
IIRC there was a Nate McLouth bobblehead night scheduled during the season he was traded.
But I like Vlad’s idea : they make bobbleheads with a random face, and they manually paint the jersey with the name and number of a guy on the roster the night before the game.
Tonight is Joel Hanrahan Neil Walker’s bobblehead night !
by From France on Nov 14, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
alla them whiteys
look the same to me!
by BlindSquirrel on Nov 14, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
this needs to happen
Love the Hammer, however he is at maximum value right now and we really dont need a closer this year because this isnt the year. I think Boston should be our primary target. Whatever happened to Jed Lowrie? He ended up having a pretty awful year but i’m a big believer in him and believe that we could snag him and then sign him to an extension on the cheap! Could be long-term solution and awesome player for the Bucs. He’s 27. I’d trade Hammer for Lowrie straight up, what do you all think? (I know he finished terribly last year and isnt great on defense, i know)
Hanrahan for Jose Iglesias
Don’t I wish.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
jurickson profar
if you’re gonna dream, dream big
I'm
still think NH had a chance to get him last offseason on early last season, which makes me a sad panda.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 15, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
i think i've said this before
but as NH, I don’t touch this. As Cherington, it’s done before NH finishes his offer.
by BurgherKing on Nov 14, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
You think Iglesias is *that* overrated?
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
yes
I’ll be really unhappy if Iglesias is more than a throw-in on a Chris Resop trade. (IOW, he’s the kind of guy I trade Brian Bixler for)
by BurgherKing on Nov 14, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
I just didn't realize his bat was quite THAT bad
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Huntington's duty is clear
Boston needs a closer. Bucs need a 1B.
LARS ANDERSON
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Here we go again....
We should trade Hanrahan…
But only for a big haul….
But we aren’t going to get anyone good enough…
Why? Because Hanrahan isn’t worth player X, Y or Z…
Then why do we expect to get a big haul?
Because WE have to get one….
Round and round it goes….
We have zero use for Hanrahan this year with the lineup we are expected to put on the field. His value to use is his trade value…so I am in favor of dealing him. Take offers and pick the best one.
by Brakeman8 on Nov 14, 2011 11:53 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
:(
you never post any solutions – just problems. it’s really disappointing for a person with a BAMF name like Thunder
Only interested in solutions...
…if they’re good solutions. Lowrie is not a good solution.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
frankly
i’d take Lowrie in a heartbeat if I was convinced he would remain healthy, or even unconvinced that he would be injured. At this point, I’m convinced he has Doumit-like injury tendencies.
Ewwww
I’ll pass on Lowrie unless we’re trading Resop or something.
I don’t think he’s more than an average shortstop, and that’s his ceiling that’s very much in jeopardy due to major health concerns.
We can do much better for Hanarhan.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 15, 2011 1:35 AM EST up reply actions
I actually like Lowrie…but he’s spent more time on the DL the last 3 years than Doumit.
2009…played 32 games in the majors…26 in the minors
2010…played 55 games in the majors…10 in the minors
2011…played 88 games in the majors…5 in the minors
So…out of almost 500 possible games (486)…in the last 3 seasons…he’s played 216. Doumit has played 300.
But
He’s playing more each year. Building up his endurance. So by the time he’s 33, he’ll be ready to play full time
by NastyNate82 on Nov 14, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Then why do we expect to get a big haul?
Because it’s not worth trading him unless we get one, and ending up with Hanrahan as our closer heading into 2012 isn’t exactly a bad outcome.
I agree with you
But if I am understanding the “experts” on here correctly, Hanrahan isn’t worth a big haul.
But if I am understanding the "experts" on here correctly, Hanrahan isn’t worth a big haul.
Your best chance of getting a big haul for a closer is to move him at the trade deadline.
Not that I'm an expert...
But to clarify my position…
Only in the rarest of cirumstances is a relief pitcher worth a big haul. That said, there are teams out there that will pay it and when you consider Hanrahan’s performance, youth, health & affordability, I think he is worth a lot. I would be looking to trade for more than Mike Adams brought and in the form of a ready for prime time major league player.
Good day.
I think
Drabek makes sense for both sides. I kinda hesitate, but Drabek still has the stuff, a #2 ceiling, and at worst will probably settle into a back-end rotation starter. Plus all that team control. I think the Pirates have to pull the trigger if they can get Drabek and 2 C+ prospects.
Then again, at this point, I wouldn’t mind just locking up Hanrahan for a while. I mean, yes closers are overvalued significantly, but there’s still something to be said for having an elite closer (and Hanrahan is about as elite as you can get these days), especially if, as you pointed out Vlad, we aren’t getting a big haul back.
Basically I’m torn…
Now, if the Blue Jays call and offer Drabek and Jake Marisnick, or something ridiculous like that, pull the trigger.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 14, 2011 12:47 PM EST reply actions
Locking up Hammer for a while
What would you think of a contract that looks like this?
3 years/$15MM
2012: $4MM
2013: $5MM
2014: $6MM
Team option for 2015: $7MM/$500K buyout
Too much?
Even leaving aside contract absurdities like Papelbon, that’s still a good rate for a great closer, when you look at guys like Heath Bell and Huston Street who make $7.5MM annually.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Given the market
I highly doubt he would agree to those terms now. If he pitches next season at the same or higher level, those numbers would be way low.
Hence you try to lock him up to those numbers now :)
I just have to think other teams will look at Papelbon’s contract and say “Uh, no, we’re not letting that deal set the rate for us.”
I think something similar happened with the Werth deal last year. Other GMs were like “If the Nationals want to overpay that absurdly, that’s their business, but we’re not going to be bound by that.”
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
You are right
But I’m saying, he won’t do it. I see where you are coming from and if they don’t move him, I agree they should try to extend him. I just don’t see it happening as he could be due for a huge payday in the not so distant future.
Right
Especially if he has another year like the one he just had. You don’t often get the big payday after 1 big year, but after 2-3 you will.
i seriously wonder about you people sometimes in terms of common sense and whatnot. first off, your bringing up the idea of trading away an all star and currently one of the elite closers in the game. but i guarantee most, if not all of you people on here, complained when the pirates traded the likes of “good players” such as sanchez, bay, nady, mclouth, schmidt, ramirez, even still whining about bautista of all people, etc. wasnt the market for them favorable? werent all those players at their peak and we knew we could get a great return for them? yet a majority of people STILL complained. this scenario right here on this article is exactly that. this original post by charlie and all your responses is pretty much the perfect description of prototypical radical pirate fan saying that, “player X or Y is good, so the pirates are obviously going to trade them”. even more so, a few of you have stated that good relievers and closers are too volatile, important, and tough to find in this day in age of baseball. so why hand the job over to someone with less credibility and experience and downgrade your bullpen talent by making the likes of meek, grilli, or resop your closer? when you already have an elite closer in hanrahan already! in addition, that statement saying “trading Hanrahan is the most obvious way to obtain the upgrades that the Pirates need” is absolutely false. trading one guy will not get you a major league ready shortstop, 1st baseman, and starting pitcher. plain and simple. granted, letting go of a guy at his peak can garner the best return assets, but this philosophy you are talking about of trading hanrahan because he is good right now and the market is favorable for closers is just what most “pirate fans” HATE. just freaking go out and buy a SS, 1B, and SP in free agency . trading away a talent like hanrahan just exposes a chink in the armour more in the pirates management saying. but once hes gone, HES GONE. i bet if he was traded today, alot of you would still complain even though you preached the idea. because some of the return players may not pan out, which would lead to even more complaints once again that “the pirates always trade away their good players”
sorry for the rant, but this kind of stuff just upsets me being a longtime dedicated fan for the age that I am. i get sick and tired of hearing my friends and colleagues tell me time and time again that “all the pirates are going to do is trade away their good players”. ive even heard that same phrase used to describe the pirates management tactics on sportscenter/baseball tonight. yet, some of you may be the same exact people that have complained about this same subject, but your the ones preaching to “trade a good player”…..just dont get it……thats all!
even more so, a few of you have stated that good relievers and closers are too volatile, important, and tough to find in this day in age of baseball. so why hand the job over to someone with less credibility and experience and downgrade your bullpen talent by making the likes of meek, grilli, or resop your closer? when you already have an elite closer in hanrahan already!
You sorta answered your own question there – Hanrahan may not be an elite closer two or three years from now. Heck, he might not even be one next year. So, if you can get someone to pay through the nose for him, you do it.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
I read the first two sentences, and decided the wall of text wasn’t worth my time. I can just say that you’re pretty much wrong about the general attitude of those here.
Notice how all talk of trading Cutch get’s shot down, but the talk about trading Hanranan has flourished? Or did you just decide that, oh man, trading one of our all-star players whom happens to be a high commodity player at an easily replaceable position was the final straw?
Thank you Ned Colletti.
i really dont think closers are easily replaceable, especially ones that have the stuff and effectiveness like hanrahan. you just dont throw random relievers into a closers role because thats horrible baseball decision making. last three outs in baseball is one of the toughest and stressful moments in all of sports. i wanna know, if they traded hanrahan, who would you use in his spot? meek? grilli? neither have closer experience. a free agent?
If your opinion is that not just any pitcher can close
then why did Hanny bomb so bad at it in Washington? And the belief that the last 3 outs are the toughest job in sports….I can’t even begin to say where I disagree. More games are won or lost in the 6th-8th innings when the middle relievers and set-up guys are in the game than in the 9th inning. You’re really telling me that the 7-8-9 hitters are the toughest three outs of a game when you’re up 5-2?
last three outs in baseball is one of the toughest and stressful moments in all of sports
Spare me these platitudes — besides, the ‘toughest three outs’ or toughest outs in general are dictated a game-to-game basis. Most of the time it’s the seventh inning outs that are the hardest to get.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Most of the time it’s the seventh inning outs that are the hardest to get.
So perhaps we should run Hanrahan out there for the 7th…and use Veras/Resop/etc for the rest of the game?
Based on your comment, that would perhaps be the best use of Hanrahan. Shit…anyone can close a game, let’s really CONCENTRATE on the 7th!
by insane_sanity on Nov 14, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
because then we’re running the likes of Resop or Veras out there in the 9th!
A healthy Meek may have changed this argument…but I cannot see running Hanrahan out there in the 7th only to follow him up with the likes of Resop/Veras/Watson to close out the game. As a manager, you need your consistently dominant guy to finish up your game.
by insane_sanity on Nov 15, 2011 6:31 AM EST up reply actions
No, no you don’t. Most decent relievers can pitch a single inning without giving up a run. You want your best guys to pitch when it’s a critical situation. Starting an inning is not a critical situation, no matter which inning it is.
by thecheeseisblue on Nov 15, 2011 7:36 AM EST up reply actions
yeah
If you run Resop and Veras out in the 7th, you might not get to let Hanrahan pitch with a lead in the 9th.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 15, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
So in a 1 run game in the 7th inning, if you want to save Hanrahan for the 9th, you still have to put Veras and/or Resop out there. We’re back to square one.
by From France on Nov 15, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
thus brings into attention NOT the ability of our closer or how he is used…but the shit in the ’pen before him.
But instead of faulting the FO for it, many hurry to pile blame on the Manager…for “misuse” of our closer. If this was the 70’s or 80’s, I’d be all for the 3-inning save by Hanrahan.
I’ve read a few posts on here lately about how strong our bullpen is…and how low the cost. Based on this conversation we’ve had here…the bullpen isn’t NEARLY as good as some say, and the fact that we’re talking about throwing our closer in the game in the 7th backs those facts.
So while Lee and Ludwick looked nice as acquistions…the question is more so why we didn’t add bullpen help. If it “cost too much”…that tells me it “cost to much” to stay in contention, and perhaps we should have traded those players with high trade values at the deadline….and bettered our organization.
by insane_sanity on Nov 15, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe I was watching a different pen in '11
But Veras, Resop, DCutch, and Grillie were all pretty damn good last year.
you seem to be addressing a different issue
the key idea is that the closer is the best of your bullpen guys. As such, you make him face the best hitters from the opposition because those are the guys likely to do the most damage and the “closer” is the best guy to get them out.
If those guys come up in the 7th or the 8th, then go ahead and use the closer to get those guys out— the others can take care of the worse hitters.
That said, I was certainly of the opinion that we should have traded Hanrahan for the kind of haul Mike Adams brought in.
So in a 1 run game in the 7th inning, if you want to save Hanrahan for the 9th, you still have to put Veras and/or Resop out there. We’re back to square one.
Not exactly, since one-run games in which you use Hanrahan in the seventh may no longer be one-run games in the ninth if we score any runs in our half of the 7th-9th innings.
Even Better
Then we’ve still used our best reliever in the most high leverage situation, and don’t have to worry about someone not as good pitching in a save situation
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
If you’ve seen my posts throughout all of last year, screaming when Daniel McCutchen was put into a high leverage situation when Hanrahan hadn’t pitched in three days…yes, that’s what we should be doing.
But really, it should be highest leverage innings go to the best relievers.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
and that is why having 4 of the “best” relievers in the game is so important. When the Rangers went out and grabbed Uehara and Adams, they were working to shorten the game…IN FRONT OF Feliz.
Unlike you, I’m not going to take anything away from a closer. Effectively every outing of theirs is somewhat “high stress” — they are expected to CLOSE the game, and not have the offense go back out. Middle relievers cannot say that…and if they mess up, there is at least one (and sometimes several) at bat left to make up for their shortcoming….that is not typically the situation for a closer. If a closer does his job, they typically win. If not, they typically lose.
With respect to use of Hanrahan: in all honesty, the second half of the season we needed 4 of him. The starting pitching was barely making it 5…and we needed 3 arms in front of Hanrahan to get us to him. Except for Grilli, there was no bullpen help acquired — the likes of Uehara, Adams and such were acquired by real contenders. If the asking price for relief was too high…the question is why we didn’t seize the opportunity and deal Hanrahan for a good haul? I value having a closer, and having one at a reasonable cost, but so does the rest of the league. The fact that we are still rebuilding this organization was not lost on me at the trade deadline…regardless if we were “contending” or not. I think the FO was living in the moment and lost sight of their goal, and as such lost an opportunity (if not one to unload Maholm as well).
by insane_sanity on Nov 15, 2011 6:29 AM EST up reply actions
"last three outs in baseball is one of the toughest and stressful moments in all of sports."
8th inning is tougher – particularly when the reliever comes in with men on base.
but i guarantee most, if not all of you people on here, complained when the pirates traded the likes of "good players" such as sanchez, bay, nady, mclouth, schmidt, ramirez,
Um, no.
You’re new here, so I’ll give you a tip: go through the archives.
just freaking go out and buy a SS, 1B, and SP in free agency .
How many threads have there been since you have joined that have stated either A) The Pirates CANNOT AFFORD THE BIG FA PLAYERS or B) Quoted NH as saying this year’s crop of of FAs are slim after the top 1 or 2 players at any position?
Take a deep breath. Criminy.
.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
reply fail
meant for rinsana11
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 14, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
Shut up, angus.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 15, 2011 7:06 AM EST up reply actions
Trading Hanny
I honestly think that one of the best partners for a deal here would be the Reds. It’d be worth their while to trade for Hanny and move Chapman into the rotation. I also think that if they targeted someone like Alonso among others. I know getting Alonso might piss off the Lars crowd though…
it's gonna get real ugly
when that arm falls off. dude’s already had arm issues and you’re handing him to dusty baker. like giving $30M worth of cookies to this guy
Mmmm...cookies
Thats true with Dusty, though. If you’re going to hand him over as a starter to a manager, it would be hard to find a worse one for a young pitcher. Apparently, there’s quite a divide between Jocketty and Dusty about the future of the Reds…obviously, Dusty likes running pitchers into the ground and playing cadavers in the middle infield instead of younger guys.
Hey, he played for Lasorda...
that’s how they do it.
See Dreifort, Darren and Valenzuela, Fernando et al.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 15, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
If I'm gonna pay him 30 million
I don’t want him to be a setup man, especially if I’m a small market team like the Reds. Its stupid. I actually think his control might improve if he eased up a bit and conserved a little bit.
Hanrahan
I think a deal like Hanrahan to the Reds for Yonder Alonso and Billy Hamilton? Alonso could be our long-term first baseman, and Hamilton our long term shortstop. I dont know how well I’d like seeing Hanrahan 20+ times a year though….
well, i would take that deal
the Reds, however, will not.
by white angus on Nov 16, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed on that one
If the Bucs were to trade with them, two guys I kind of like are Yorman Rodriguez and Neftali Soto. Rodriguez is really toolsy and really young, while Soto is a monstrous power prospect at 1B. And I mean these guys as a supplement to a Hanny deal, not as the centerpiece.
Ugh.
I thought we all agreed that punting on the 2012 season, before the season started, was a bad idea. I mean they gave up on Cedeno and Maholm, which everyone here agreed was a bad idea, but now it seems like a ton of people here seem to think that trading Hanrahan away is a good idea…
You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu
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