Your Handy Dandy Pirates Rule 5 Guide
by WTM on Nov 15, 2011 5:25 PM EST
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PrintFriday is the deadline for teams to set their rosters for purposes of the Rule 5 draft. What follows, for those of you who have no life, is a complete list of the Pirates' minor leaguers who aren't on the 40-man roster and are eligible for the draft, together with my probably mostly wrong assessments of whether they'll be protected. Armed with all this information, you should be a cinch to win a free Prospect Guide at Pirates Prospects.
Tim Alderson, RHP – Former top prospect seemed to be turning things around in the bullpen until hitters realized he was still only throwing 87. No.
Calvin Anderson, DH – Finally had a big hot streak around mid-season, then got hurt for the rest of the year. Even when he was hot his BB and K numbers were bad, and he can’t play the field. No.
Eric Avila, 3B – Overmatched in low A. No.
Jesus Brito, RHP – Just converted to the mound. No.
Fraylin Campos, RHP – 5’11" Dominican who throws 91-93, he’s pitched only briefly in the US and struggled in limited introduction to the NYPL. No.
Brad Chalk, OF – Organizational outfielder. No.
Michael Colla, RHP – Had surprisingly good season when moved to the rotation at Altoona, but sits only around 89-91, so ceiling is doubtful. Probably not.
Tyler Cox, LHP – Throws in the low 90s since moving to the bullpen and has been very effective when healthy, somewhat similar to Tony Watson. Not too much of a track record, so the Pirates may prefer to hope nobody drafts him. Probably not.
Michael Crotta, RHP – Removed from 40-man roster and struggled with elbow problems in 2011, although he’s still intriguing. No.
Emmanuel De Leon, RHP – Sits at 94 and pitched well in relief for State College in 2011, but hasn’t gotten past short season ball yet. No.
Michael Dubee, RHP – AA veteran has had a nice career at Altoona. No.
Miles Durham, 1B/OF – Organizational corner player can’t hit offspeed stuff. No.
Jeremy Farrell, 3B – Can’t stay healthy and has had only one good year . . . well, partial year. No.
Zachary Foster, RHP – Sidearm reliever throws 92 but had same number of BBs as Ks at Bradenton. No.
Brian Friday, IF – One-time prospect now a utility player in AAA, surpassed by other infield prospects. No.
Matt Hague, 1B – Not a lock after puzzling decision not to call him up in September. Lacks the power to play regularly at first, but the team is woefully short on players who can hit round objects with cylindrical pieces of wood. Probably.
Noah Krol, RHP – Organizational reliever served as closer at Altoona in 2011 despite not pitching very well. No.
Andrew Lambo, OF – One of the tougher calls. Lambo tanked in AAA, then finally started getting his swing back in the second half at Altoona. He’s still only 23. It’ll just depend on how much faith the Pirates have in the bat. Probably not.
Quincy Latimore, OF – Surprising power for a small guy, but still swings at everything. No.
Brian Leach, RHP – Good stuff, but came unglued in 2011 due to control problems. No.
Mike Loree, RHP – Interesting guy, signed after breakout year in independent ball. Not enough track record yet. No.
Brett Lorin, RHP – One of the toughest players in the system to get a handle on, at least in the sense of how the Pirates view him. Despite good results, he seems to fly under the radar (which is quite a feat at 6’7"), probably in part due to injury problems. Probably, I guess.
Jairo Marquez, C – Organizational catcher. No.
Starling Marte, OF – Dave Littlefield is gone. Yes.
Matt McSwain, RHP – Soft-tossing organizational pitcher. No.
Miguel Mendez, RHP – Just converted to the mound from catching. No.
Jordy Mercer, SS – I seem to like him better than a lot of people, but he led the system in HRs in 2011 and is a solid or better defensive shortstop. Probably.
Diego Moreno, RHP – The Pirates love guys with upper 90s velocity, but Moreno has struggled for two years to stick in AA. You’d need to know the team’s thinking on why, which I don’t. Probably.
Eliecer Navarro, LHP – Only 5’9", but throws in the upper 80s and has mostly pitched well. The team appears to regard him as an organizational pitcher. No.
Rogelio Noris, OF – Good power, but a 10-1 strikeout-to-walk ratio. Took a step backward in 2011 while repeating low A. No.
Anthony Norman, OF – Organizational outfielder. No.
Rudy Owens, LHP – It’s not time to give up hope. Yes.
Aaron Pribanic, RHP – One-pitch sinkerballer is extremely hittable, although the Pirates do love sinkerballers. Probably not.
Jhonatan Ramos, LHP – Another small (5’8") lefty who gets results by mixing up a lot of pitches. No.
Josh Rodriguez, IF – Went from Rule 5 pick to "organizational depth" (Clint Hurdle’s words) in two months. No.
David Rubinstein, OF – Organizational outfielder. No.
Yunesky Sanchez, IF – Signed this year as organizational infielder. No.
Hunter Strickland, RHP – You can’t draft him if you can’t find him. No.
Andy Vasquez, IF – Organizational infielder. No.
Kris Watts, C – Fell off badly with the bat in 2011 and is not good defensively. No.
Duke Welker, RHP – Sort of a poor man’s Joel Hanrahan. Throws a heavy, mid- (sometimes upper-) 90s fastball that induces lots of grounders, along with a slider that’s mainly a chase pitch. Command improved a lot this year but still has far to go. The Pirates love them some big (6’7"), hard throwers. Probably.
Cole White, OF – Organizational outfielder. No.
Justin Wilson, LHP – Hit 99 as a reliever. Yes.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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BWood to Rockies.
There’s one…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 17, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
Great post.
With some of the filth we have on there leaving Hague off is a mistake.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Nov 15, 2011 6:12 PM EST via mobile reply actions
my thought is....
If Hague could produce by hitting doubles/singles and the occasionally Triple…wouldn’t he be similar I suppose to Neil Walker? Granted he doesn’t have power, but I’d prefer someone with an average and hitting ability at 1B as well as some defense. I’d think they’d protect him otherwise someone is going to probably take a chance on a 1B that could be productive but not a true Power Corner.
The Defensive part is where I’m not sure on Matt Hague. I mean we’ve watched GFJ swing and miss, we’ve watched Lyle “Overpaid”. and Neither is or was a wonder at 1B.
but doubles ARE power... Hague has also improved with the bat against more seasoned pitchers
but just like Vlad has said, Hague has no solid above average skill. And that there are countless other 1Bmen trying to break into the big leagues that are better than he.
Unfortunately, none of those countless other 1B that are better than Hague are actually in the Pirates organization. Sadly, the one position that is “easiest” to fill, the Pirates haven’t been able to fill adequately more than a couple of years in the last 18 years.
we're not talking about the pirates system though
we’re talking about other teams possibly taking him in the rule5.
yes, i know the pirates stink. years and years of shit. yadayada
If we had one of those better 1B in our system, there wouldn’t be any concern at all about losing Hague. Until we actually have a decent 1B, I’d sorta prefer to keep him this season and see what happens. Mediocre trumps bad.
our pirates arent allowed to be mediocre, remember?
they all have to be perfect, even in AAA. sheeeeeesh!
they all have to be perfect, even in AAA.
I will never, ever understand your belief that it’s somehow unreasonable to want the team to improve its talent around the margins of the roster.
by Vlad on Nov 17, 2011 9:19 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
i never said it was unreasonable to want to improve
im saying that its impossible to expect everyone to have above average seasons.
you expect our backup players to put up 2 WAR or something and thats asking alot for a BACKUP.
the phillies just signed Schnieder to be the backup catcher. you think they dont realize his hitting is going downhill?? maybe its because he brings more to the table than a high OPS.
you keep harping on my harping about these below average players
yet you led the Pearce bandwagon for years!
i know XP isnt going to be a viable starter for us, but even Tim over at PP agrees that hes a good backup.
maybe if you heard someone other than Angus say it you might ease up on it.
If we had one of those better 1B in our system, there wouldn’t be any concern at all about losing Hague.
There are at least a dozen available as minor league free agents right now.
So
Would you sign one of them, leave Hague off the 40-man, and shrug if he’s picked?
Are any of them actually good enough to platoon with Jones (granting that Jones was, of course, a MiL FA that no one would have called good enough to play the strong side of a 1B platoon)?
Would you sign one of them, leave Hague off the 40-man, and shrug if he’s picked?
Pretty much, yeah. I’d try to wait to formalize the signing until after the R5 draft takes place, though, so that we wouldn’t risk losing both guys.
Are any of them actually good enough to platoon with Jones…?
No less so than Hague is, certainly. If you want a RHB for a platoon situation, I’d maybe suggest a look at Mauro Gomez. Batted .304/.356/.522 as a 26-year-old in the IL last year, and while he’s got some issues with K/BB, he showed signs of tightening that up in the second half.
I wouldn’t let a guy like that stand in the way of a significant acquisition, but if it’s a cattle call at 1B, he’s just as good a bet as a guy like Hague.
Certainly...
if the Pirates can find a better 1B than Hague, they need to go get him, Hague or no Hague. But if they don’t get one, why risk losing Hague in the meantime? Add in a potential Jones non-tender and if Hague were to get Rule 5’d, then you go from mediocre at 1B to nothing at 1B.
But if they don’t get one, why risk losing Hague in the meantime?
If there are lots of players equivalent to Hague available for no more than a minor league contract, then how much of a “risk” is it?
Functionally, there is no difference between Hague-as-starting-1B and semi-decent minor-league free agent-as-starting-1B. And if, by some chance, Hague did end up getting picked, you’d better believe agents for guys like Chris Carter would be lining up around the block to get their guy in our camp as a NRI…
I'll be ticked if they don't roster Mercer
He seems like exactly the kind of guy who’ll stick as a utility guy if he gets drafted, and he has some potential too. I mean, if we don’t sign anyone else he could easily stick on our ML team, and maybe even start. (I hope we sign someone else.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 15, 2011 6:34 PM EST reply actions
I think Mercer is a lock.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Nov 15, 2011 6:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I agree with your agreement on his agreement
The ball just got bigger and bigger and then BAM it hit me.
by .500 Please on Nov 16, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
I think Mercer has to be a lock to get on the 40 man. No way someone doesn’t take him.
Hague is in for me. If not for the fact that he is the only 1B option we have that is ready to step in and be at least servicable, but for the fact that he is capable of handling 3B if needed. He is another guy that I think would stick on a roster if taken in the Rule V for those very reasons.
Lambo is the wild card for me. I would like to see at least 1 more season out of the kid before we cut him loose. He was a top prospect in baseball for a reason and that potential alone leads me to believe that he would be worth keeping over some of the roster fodder that we currently have littering the bottom of the 40 man. I’m not sure he is ready to stick on a teams 25 man for a full season at this point, but I don’t think this is the season to risk it happening. As mentioned before, he started to hit again at the end of the season, so why not see if he can carry that over into next year and hope he can handle AAA this time around? He’s still only 23, so its not exactly like he is old for AA/AAA.
I’ve got three definites and five probablies. That’s eight, although (a) I’m probably wrong about a bunch of them and (b) I wouldn’t expect all of the probablies to make it. There are five roster openings, which makes it easy. They just have to dfa Paul, Ciriaco and Pagnohit.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Yeah, I forgot, he's super-glued to the bench.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
I thought he was the Bus driver between AAA and the PBC
He probably knows the route blindfolded lol.
i think id rather keep Paul over Fryer
not that id care either way but i do agree on Ciriaco and Pagnozzi though.
twitter.com/iandavidjackson
Disagree very strongly
Fryer has a chance to be a decent bat at a scarce position; a sort of Doumit lite. Paul is an incredibly replaceable player. and there’s approximately no chance he’ll turn into anything more than a fifth outfielder.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 16, 2011 7:28 AM EST up reply actions
This
Basically the same player, except Gorkys is a far superior defender, younger and has more potential. But hey, other than that, it’s a coinflip.
Fryer is a potentially useful player at a position where we need a lot of those. Seems like a no brainer.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
This.
XP has proven he’s not a “team” player – he didn’t even go to Australia, fer chrissakes…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 16, 2011 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
Giving the list a little more thought
A part of me would also like to see Pribanic protected. He doesn’t have great stuff and his K/9 isn’t good, but he seemed to get pretty decent results. Perhaps if he opens next year in AAA and performs strongly, he could sneak his way into the rotation at mid-season and supplant someone like Correia or Lincoln (if he gets a shot and sucks it up). A lot of that really depends on how Owens and Locke do early on as I would rather see them get first cracks at the rotation, but neither of them are a sure thing to not flop next year.
Aw, Christ.
I’ve been working all year to get my R5 pull list ready… and I just realized that I’m going to be out of town for a week in an area with extremely limited internet access, starting Saturday.
Going to be a late night on Friday, writing stuff up…
Lambo's a surprise for me at "Probably not"
You mention he’s 23, but a young 23 having only turned it in August, meaning he’ll either be ahead of schedule or right on schedule depending on how the season starts out.
I have to imagine, given him being a prospect NH traded for, they’ll want to give him another opportunity. After all, NH hasn’t had a ton of success in his trades that include minor leaguers. Too soon to cut bait.
Plus, if he re-captures some of that magic he had awhile back, he’ll be an excellent trade chip with the surplus of OF’s we have right now.
rule 5
Rostering players ahead of the rule 5 is a sort-of poker game. It’s not just about the players you have/like. It’s also about what other teams can be expected to do and about how the moves you make affect your options in the future. In Lambo’s case, there’s just no way he gets through a whole season on another team’s ML roster right now. He has no defensive versatility and can’t even hit AAA pitching. The upside is no longer big enough that a team will carry that dead weight for a full season. I’m sure the Pirates want to keep him around a bit longer, but they don’t have to roster him to do so.
I’d say similar things about Hague, Lorin, Moreno, and Welker. The odds of any of those guys 1) being selected, 2) sticking through a whole season at the ML level, and 3) making the Pirates regret losing them is so slim that there’s no real reason to roster them.
Lambo was once regarded as a top prospect, but the last time he had a season that was actually good on its own merits (as opposed to OK for a young guy playing against advanced competition) was 2008. He’s limited to LF and 1B, and isn’t a good glove at either. He doesn’t run particularly well. He got the bat knocked out of his hands at AAA this year. He’s got a rep as a bad character guy. And he isn’t playing winter ball anywhere, so he isn’t drawing scouts’ eyes with a hot couple of weeks that could be interpreted as progress this offseason. There’s just not a lot there for a drafting team. He isn’t ready to succeed right away, he’s going to be hard to hide on a bench, and his perceived upside is damaged by his struggles the last few years.
It’s not impossible that he’d be drafted, but even if he is, I’d be surprised to see him stick.
ive seen Lambo play
runs better than you’d think. really good arm too. im not saying hes a good outfielder, just relaying my thoughts.
i think lambo WOULD get selected in the rule5, but doubt he would stick with anyone.
I agree about the running and throwing parts. He’s also very good at not getting hit by the flyballs he loses track of.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Nov 16, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Nobody, but nobody
is going to carry Lambo on an MLB roster for an entire season.
Nobody.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 16, 2011 8:51 AM EST up reply actions
Not carrying him an entire season shouldn't be the end of the discussion for Lambo
This type of thinking really yanks my chain. If the Pirate scouts have discerned something in Lambo that gives them an indication he has the potential to be an above average bat, than he should be rostered. At this point in Lambo’s career, sitting on the bench for a month or two or three and floating through a coupl of different organizations can be a killer for him. Please note Bautista’s career as an example of how damaging exposing a promising player to the Rule V draft can be. I firmly belive that if Bautista could have gotten a full season, maybe a season and a half at Triple-A he would have been a better player when he arrived in Pittsburgh. Many scouts took note of his potential, he had lost a prior summer to injury, like lambo’s history, he needed time to get minor league at bats. that was entirely a failure of the Pirates FO at the time to waste a year of crucial development for him.
Same goes for Lambo. If the potential is there than roster him and let him play and hope he develops in the system. If you don’t roster him than be prepared to cut him loose permanently because you may be getting back a guy in mid-season who just took two steps back with some other org and may never recover. I jsut think its outhining yourself to expose a guy to the Rule-V if you actually think he can develop into an above average major leaguer. Crying out loud there are only about 4 guys on the list who have the potential to be above average in the majors on their best day.
bautista would have been a better player had he been more acceptive to coaching
but lets not open that can o’ worms again
even
when that coaching was telling him to hit to all fields and ignore his natural dead pull power? I’d say ignoring bad coaching is good advice to anyone.
tell that to the other 4 teams that had a sample of bautista, including the jays whom nearly DFA'd him before he finally listened.
can o’ worms, closed and sealed… next topic please
by white angus on Nov 16, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
I appreciate your opinion,
but I disagree about Lambo.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 16, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
Nobody here (including me) thought there was any way Nate Adcock would remain on the Royals roster all year without spending significant time on the DL either.
Exception,
rather than the rule.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 16, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
i also predicted that Pearce would be tried at 3B and that Duke would be "let go"
so 3 in 2 years isnt too bad, right? LOL
that's true
but it is a lot easier to hide a guy in the pen than on the bench. Basically what we did with Veale. Less room for flotsam on the bench.
it's a lot easier to hide a pitcher in the bullpen
than to hide a guy on the bench. We hung on to Donnie Veal the entire year and he got almost no PT
maybe i should read what Garrett122 says before I post
sorry for the echo lol
Veal was mostly on the DL, wasn't he?
Still, point taken.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 16, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
My point is IF the Pirates believe Lambo has above average potential...
than its foolish to risk losing him in the Rule V draft because even if he comes back he might hae taken even more steps backwards developmentally. I think that was the true tragedy of the Littlefile Rule V disaster.
The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 16, 2011 1:10 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Have you built up an immunity to Rule 5 protection?
Thank you Ned Colletti.
by ryebr3ad on Nov 17, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nicely.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 17, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
A Classic Blunder!
If you sir are indeed Lars, then why wear a mask? Unless the mask is to trick me into
believing you might be someone else, perhaps Lyle Overbay. You’re carrying your sword
on the left, but any fool would know both Lars and Lyle are lefties, which gives it away,
you must be a righty pretending to be a lefty, so we can rule out you are Lars or Lyle, we can rule out Bobby Bonilla and John Milner for obvious reasons, you fool, it’s as plain as the mask on your face, your Doug Frobel!
by pineapplepete on Nov 16, 2011 6:49 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
what happened
to the talent crunch? You know, the riches in the farm system that we had to protect from the rule 5 draft? This post is discouraging, the system seems to still be loaded with cr8p and filler.
Good point
There are, literally, 3-5 roster spots (don’t forget Ohlie, who I can’t imagine staying at this point) that we assumed would be reserved for MLBers as recently as this spring that are now open. Leaves more room for the kids.
Frex, does Fryer get rostered if Doumit’s on the team and Sanchez had a really good, or even solid, 2011? Not very likely. But now there’s no downside to doing it.
fryer is already rostered, right?
or are you talking about the 25 man?
by white angus on Nov 16, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
It was a hypothetical
in which Fryer never got on the 40-man during the 2011 season. Right? He wasn’t protected last year, was he?
But the point was that, in a slightly different world from this one, the Pirates head into 2012 with Doumit their #1 C, JJ or McKenry at #2, and Sanchez in AAA just waiting for mid-June. In that situation, Fryer might never get his shot, and he only gets on the 40-man if there’s a wide open slot for him. But as it is, he’s kind of a no-brainer to keep on the 40-man, because Doumit’s gone, and Sanchez won’t be arriving any time soon.
Most systems are top heavy & filled out with crap
To me, the quality of a system’s top 25 players is what matters and IMO, the Bucs’s system is highly encouraging in that regard, particularly in the top 10-15
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Not sure what you mean when you say top 25
if you mean 25 in the org I disagree. If you mean top 25 prospects, then I can see your point.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 16, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
I count 6 players who are near locks to be protected : Marte, Owen, Wilson, Mercer, Hague, Lorin
I bet you won’t find many organizations who have as many guys to protect as us. Or a season where we had as many as 6 guys to protect in our recent history.
Also, usually, we list prospects and their ETA. Here WTM lists all guys eligible in the Rule 5 draft. That’s totally different. And each team will have a majority of fillers eligible each year.
A lot of the decisions got made during the season, when they brought up d’Arnaud, Harrison, Hughes and Fryer. If my guesses are right and they add eight prospects to the roster, that’s twelve on the season. That’s a lot.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
would you
describe d’Arnaud, Harrison, Hughes and Fryer as any more than filler?
I should fill that in a bit
I don’t see any of them being anything more than utility players/middle relievers(Hughes).
Probably not
I agree with WA on this, but more than that, even to have 12 guys between legit prospects and filler is a really big number. Try going 12 deep on any Pirates MiL roster in the last 20 years, and you’re getting well below Hughes-level players. And not just the Pirates – most teams, most years are pretty damn fringy once you get past the top 10 Rule 5-eligible guys.
Also, Fryer’s upside is decent backup catcher for a couple years, which is more than filler (R. Diaz, or Torreagas, are filler-grade Cs).
As WTM pointed out, even after dropping four guys from the major league team, we’d have to DFA three (expendable) guys to make room for all the definites and probablies, we’d still be exposing Pribanic, and with any luck we’ll need to make room for a newly signed SS and maybe SP. So it’s still a little crunchy, even if you take the view that Hague doesn’t need to be rostered.
(Solution: Trade Pribanic and Hague for Hanley.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 16, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
You mean Hanley Ramirez?
I’d have to think the Marlins would want to extract a little more
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
yeah
That was a joke.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 16, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
I should've picked up on that
“Coffee hadn’t kicked in yet” must be my excuse. That or chronic dumbassery.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
you ARE a pirate fan.
considered a disabiltiy in certain states.
by white angus on Nov 16, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
a disabiltiy in certain states.*
*not valid in AZ, ID, IN, VT, WA and Puerto Rico
If in doubt, please consult your physician.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 16, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
understood
but there really aren’t any hard decisions here. I’m not concerned about potentially losing anyone mentioned in this post. You would hope after 3-4 years that would be some sort of collection of talent. The fact that we still have players like Paul, Ciriaco and Pagnozzi on the 40 man speaks a lot about the depth of the system.
It means it's still developing
if it comes to be 2014 & we still have guys like Paul & Pagnozzi up with the big club, get back to me.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
check out some other teams' 40 man rosters and you'll find shatloads of Ciriaco's and Pagnozzi's
by white angus on Nov 16, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
Also
Paul and Pagnozzi are only on the roster in the first place because of the Pirates’ extraordinary bad injury luck in 2011: in a normal year, Doumit, Snyder, JJ, and a game or two of Baker gets you comfortably through the year; same deal with Tabata, Presley, Diaz, Jones, and Pearce. Pagnozzi wasn’t signed until after the injury crunch, but he was replacing Baker and Torreagas, who were cut after failing in the bigs; most years, they never even see the bigs.
brown instead of baker, right?
i know who you mean, not sure about some of the others on this site… bwahahaaa
by white angus on Nov 16, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, thanks
I just realized why I made that mistake – Dusty Baker would probably be a slightly worse C than Dusty Brown right now, but only slightly. LOL.
don't forget taht this doesn't include guys not eligible for the Rule V
We still got Taillon, Cole, Heredia, Grossman, etc.
Do we anticipate any ss being available to pick up from another team in Rule 5?
by pirateinva on Nov 16, 2011 9:05 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Probably looking at another JRod or Brad Emeaus type if at all
the SS positions is too valued right now for anyone to allow a MLB starting caliber SS go for free. If there was someone that was starting caliber that a team didn’t want, they could get back something via trade.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 16, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
well, yeah
still a great question though
by white angus on Nov 16, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
Eh.
The Padres managed to get a decent enough year out of Everth Cabrera the year they took him, so getting a passable SS in the Rule V is not entirely without recent precedent.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
I'd say Marte, Owens, Mercer and Wilson are virtual locks
And I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hague added, only because they have no one else should he be gobbled up, particularly if Lee walks. I think they can sneak Lambo through; his disastrous numbers at AAA you’d think would convince other teams his chances of sticking on the 25 man are minimal at best.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Up in the air about Moreno, Lorin and Welker
While all 3 have varying degrees of promise, it’s difficult to see any of them being sufficiently seasoned or polished to stick on an MLB 25 man roster, since none of the 3 have ever thrown a pitch above AA ball.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
holy crap
just realized Jordy Mercer and I have the exact same birthdate 8/27/86 . we’re twins! PROTECT MEEEEEE. they will definitely put him on the 40 man. new favorite prospect btw
I was starting my senior year of college
get off my Tartan Turf.
Alma mater!
IIRC, I actually visited CMU the summer of ‘87, during a visit to my uncle’s in New Ken (my mom & dad met there; I wasn’t college-hunting as a rising sophomore).
Okay, WTM,
I’m entering the contest with your recs.
I’d better win.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
Heh.
Yes, but nobody knows that.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 16, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Tyler Cox
I haven’t followed him that closely, but if he throws in the low 90’s from the left side and averages a K per IP, he’s a pretty easy guy to stick in the pen. Of course he was old for his level. But I think he’ll get drafted if he’s not protected.
Moreno and Pribanic
if left unprotected (just had a really weird image) , these are the type of players i can see being selected by others.
Moreno has alot of possible upside as a backend type reliever who you can hide in mop up duty and Pribanic could get the Adcock treatment.
With that said i think they’ll protect Pribanic and leave Moreno out there.
i think it needs to be reversed
or better yet, protect neither.
i seriously doubt the pirates would lose very much talent in this rule5 thing.
not every team is going to waste a 40 man spot for what we leave available.
its not like we’re leaving someone like d’Arnaud or McPherson out in the cold.
hey, remember last year when NH rostered McPherson and fans were like “wtf???”!!!
hahaaaa!!!
yeah, is Moreno really any better than Jose Ascanio? And Ascanio actually comes with upper level experience
yeah, is Moreno really any better than Jose Ascanio?
I think he is. He has better secondary stuff, and doesn’t have a recent shoulder surgery in his past, and has his full set of options left.
why is he still hanging in AA? hes not getting any younger
and yes, his stuff is better overall. doesnt make him a better pitcher overall.
why is he still hanging in AA? hes not getting any younger
Hard to say. The team just seems to be down on him, for whatever reason.
I kind of suspect that if we don’t add him to the roster, he’ll get chosen by somebody.
I can answer that
Because he can’t throw strikes. Hard to be high on a guy that can’t hit the side of a friggin barn. Even if he throws 98.
Huh?
His BB rate at AA is only 2.9, and at A+ it’s even lower, 2.5.
It’s possible that he might be inaccurate within the zone, or something like that, but he’s throwing a reasonable number of strikes.
I Haven't Read All The Comments ...
but it looks like we now have 35 ‘men’ on the 40 man roster, and it looks like WTM is adding as many as seven more. There is a fair amount of ‘dreck’ on the current roster, and I am not real excited about the seven possible add-ons. Obviously, NH is going to work his magic again at the winter meetings and find us some more Rule 5 ‘wonders’!
So exactly when do all of the phenoms that the Pirates drafted in the past four or five years start to work their way to Pittsburgh? What is the timetable?
Players typically become eligible for the R5 draft either four or five years after they are drafted (or signed as amateur FAs). Thus, the players becoming R5 eligible for the first time this year are high school players from Littlefield’s 2007 draft and college players from Huntington’s 2008 draft.
Next year is when Huntington’s players start arriving on the roster in earnest: Some combination of Grossman and Cunningham from the 2008 high school class; Sanchez, Black, Baker, Holt, and Irwin from the 2009 college class, and Ramon Cabrera and Elvys Gonzalez from the international signing class; plus any unexpected breakouts.
Forecasting a prospect's rise through the ranks is like picking lottery numbers
Yeah, you might get it right through sheer luck, but it’s almost impossible to do.
I’m not sure if they’ve officially announced their plans for Cole, but it wouldn’t shock me to see them start him in high-A with a quick bump to Altoona if he does well in his first 3-4 starts there. And if he keeps doing well in Altoona, they might even let him throw a big league game or two in September just to get his feet wet. Then he could start in AAA in 2013 with a June callup if he does well there.
That’s a SUPER fast track and only if everything about Cole goes PERFECTLY, though. So the best case scenario is a season and a half away for the Bucs’s #1 prospect.
Even the one who’s the most pro-ready right now, Starling Marte, won’t get a callup before September 2012 and a full time shot in June 2013 barring a series of catastrophic injuries, per Huntington’s recent appearance at the Vermont fundraiser.
Barring an outright miracle, Taillon won’t pitch an MLB game til September 2013.
And so on. It’s going to be at least another 2 seasons before they start bobbing up to the 25 man in any number sto count. But hey, it’s been 20 years, what’s 2 or 3 more?
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Langosch's Take
Over at the Pirates’ page at MLB.com, Jenifer Langosch has posted an article on the Pirates’ rule 5 situation:
It appears that the much anticipated 40-man roster crunch has not occurred after all. Hopefully, the Pirates will not screw it up.
Other Teams with rule 5 exposure (guys not on 40 man that would look great in black and gold)
Mets – Reese Havens
Diamondbacks – Wade Miley
Dodgers – Michael Antonini
Cubs – Josh Vitters
I was really hoping Scott Van Slyke wouldn’t get added by dodgers
Bees Bees Everywhere
The Dodgers have a lot of interesting guys up in the air this year.
They already added Van Slyke and Alfredo Silveiro, but they still have more coming. Here’s my pull list for them:
Pedro Baez, 3B
Nick Buss, CF
Alex Castellanos, RF
Tony Delmonico, 3B/C
Gorman "Griff" Erickson, C
Stephen Fife, RHSP
Austin Gallagher, 1B
Jaime Pedroza, 2B
Jon Michael Redding, RHSP (projects as RP)
Kyle Russell, RF
Cole St. Clair, LHRP
Matt Wallach, C, LAD
Josh Wall, RHRP, LAD
Chris Witherow, RHSP, LAD
(Ethan Martin gets mentioned as a potentially eligible guy sometimes, but to the best of my knowledge, he’s not. His birthday is June 6, and the cutoff for determining a player’s age for the draft’s purposes is June 5, so he’s treated as an 18-year-old rather than a 19-year-old in 2008, and therefore should have one more year remaining before he becomes eligible. Unless I’m misunderstanding something, which is certainly possible.)
I think that all of those guys are, to one degree or another. That’s why I put ’em on the list. Not all are created equal, of course, and some will end up getting rostered at the deadline. But there should still be a few interesting talents left.
It all depends what you’re looking for. Baez is very toolsy (made the Futures Game roster twice already), but his track record on the field is undistinguished, and he missed almost all of 2011. Buss is a speed- and contact-oriented CF, a little old for his level, and maybe a better fit for someone else’s roster than for ours since we have so much CF depth already. Scouts don’t like Castellanos at all, but he’s hit well enough that he could see time as a bench bat or fill-in starter, and he’s pretty close to ready right now. Delmonico has a good (but not great) offensive track record, some good (but not great) tools… and three different primary defensive positions in four pro seasons. Etc.
Taking guys in the R5 is mostly about finding the right guy for your particular situation. A flawed player whose strengths you need and whose flaws you can ignore, correct, or work around.
Actually
" Buss is a speed- and contact-oriented CF"
sounds like a perfect upgrade over XPaul. If he’s a natural CF, he would presumably be an acceptable defensive replacement at all positions; if he’s speedy, he works as a PR; and if he’s contact-oriented, he could be non-useless as PH (at bare minimum, he should be able to advance runners, lay down bunts, etc.).
He obviously wouldn’t have a long-term future here (well, maybe as a permanent 5th OF), but if he sticks and turns out OK, he’s a nice, free trade chip – the lesser piece in any significant deal, but a nice throw-in to a team without a lot of OF depth (and/or defense – pair him with a couple of sluggish mashers in the corners, and you’ve got a solid OF, even if he never wOBAs north of .300).
There are a couple of other potential negatives to keep in mind with Buss. He was a 24-year-old playing in A+, so he was older than his competition, and the Dodgers’ affiliate is in Rancho Cucamonga, which is a very robust offensive context. His power was also very limited until last year, and since everybody hits for power at Rancho, it’s hard to know how much to see as improvement and how much to see as park/league effects.
Defensively, he can play CF, but he’s more toward the adequate/tolerable end of the spectrum than the Gold Glove end. His speed is pretty good: 28/10 SB/CS last year, along with eight triples. The contact rate is legit. It’d be nice if he walked more, to take better advantage of his speed.
Still, he’s worth following, and maybe worth taking. It also depends on which other CF types end up being made available.
miley would be interesting. lefty, throws in the low 90s and had good numbers at AAA last year before being called up and starting 7 games for arizona. he profiles as a back of the rotation guy due to a subpar strikeout rate and control, but you don’t find aces in the R5.
If there are any roster deletions in the pipeline...
the process is all over but the announcement. To drop anyone, they’d have to clear waivers, which takes 48 hours and is only M-F. To have them off the roster tomorrow (to add Rule 5 eligible players before the deadline), they’d have to have requested waivers yesterday at the latest.
Having heard nothing…it would be a little surprising to me if more than 5 are added.
don't have to clear
the player comes off the roster when he’s Designated for Assignment. The team then has 10 days to to pass the player through waivers, trade him, or release him.
by dirtyfrank on Nov 17, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Free up anopther spot -
Rosenthal tweets BWood signs with Colorado.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
I don't recall
seeing that posted anywhere?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 17, 2011 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
Minor league signing
This has nothing to do with the 40-man roster, but it’s not worth its own post. The Pirates signed minor league RHP Jose R. Diaz. He’s been the closer at Bowie for a while. I’ve seen him pitch a number of times. He’s 6’4" and weighs about 350 pounds. Throws in the mid-90s. Zero prospect potential (he’s 27 and has pitched only briefly and badly above AA), but he should have some entertainment value.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Just to piss you off,
apparently.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 18, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Lots of teams haven’t gone yet.
Well, six others to be exact.
I think Nutting makes them do this stuff late so fewer reporters will call and they’ll use up fewer of their anytime minutes.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
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