MLB Rumors: Pirates Reportedly Could Target Clint Barmes
by Charlie Wilmoth on Nov 6, 2011 4:38 PM EST
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Via Tim, Troy Renck writes that he suspects the Pirates will go after shortstop Clint Barmes this winter. Clint Hurdle managed Barmes in Colorado, so it's possible that Barmes would be the rare veteran who might actually be willing to come to Pittsburgh. Barmes has been a very good defensive shortstop for the past several years, so he'd have the potential to help the Pirates even if he didn't hit much.
With that said, I'm not sure he'd hit much. He has a career .637 OPS on the road and has spent his career hitting in the favorable environments of Colorado and Houston. He actually posted a better OPS on the road than at home in 2011, but he's had some pretty huge home-road splits over his career. He'll also be 33 in March, which is a scary age for a middle infielder with a history of trouble hitting for average. Barmes was a full three wins above replacement last season, so it would be a little silly to complain if the Pirates got him, but that depends on the price, and I think the likelihood of him not hitting at all is relatively high.
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I would still rather trade
for players who are younger with more upside. I have recently been considering Tallion for Montero and Nunez. I also have been thinking about Hanrahan to Bos. for Iglacias and dare I say… Anyway, any insight on some possible deals? With the long term control over the OF, I think Marte and Grossman are both expendable for the Oakland pitchers. Thoughts?
no way on earth
the yanks make that trade, sorry.
by pineapplepete on Nov 6, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Why Barmes???
I would much rather see the Pirates go after someone like Jamey Carrol or Alex Gonzalez. Carrol is just about a lock to have an OBP at or above .350 and an OPS around .700. He can also play 2B and 3B in a pinch and is a pretty good gloveman. Just offer him a competent salary and the starting SS job and he would sign with us. Probably would not cost that much. Gonzalez is more experienced playing SS full-time and has a great glove. Does not have impressive on base skills and can not take a walk. However, he offers plus power at a relatively weak hitting position. The extra dozen or so homeruns he would supply could help us out quite a bit. Would not cost that much. I think both of these players are realistic free agent targets.
Im just curious
who would we be happy with? Not every move that can/should be made is going to be perfect. We spend a lot of time looking at the negatives of signing players and rightfully so, but in seriousness, who do we think would realistically be a good FA signing?
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
I ask
because just about every name that is linked with the pirates gets shut down very quickly as to why they would be a bad fit.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
That’s because most of them ARE bad fits.
by Vlad on Nov 6, 2011 8:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
so then who would be a right fit? Lets try to stay away from the guys they just declined options to. Im on the side that they should have exercised some of those options. But for those of you that really number crunch around here and pick players down to the core, can i PLEASE get a list of names of who would make sense or be acceptable by “your” standards. (“your” not just applying to you vlad)
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
so then who would be a right fit?
Well, Paul Maholm on a one-year deal for $9M would’ve been pretty good, I think…
Well, Paul Maholm on a one-year deal for $9M would’ve been pretty good, I think…
I wont disagree, I want Maholm, Cedeno, and Lee back. Whether you agree with the last two is not the point right now, I asked for you to leave the guys out that whose options were not picked up (In Lee’s case not offered arb? Though I think he is….).
Anyways my question still stands, who of the available FAs would you like to see the Pirates sign that is realistically possible, not counting those who were just on this team in 2011 and are now FAs. Thats all I want to know at this point.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Anyways my question still stands, who of the available FAs would you like to see the Pirates sign that is realistically possible, not counting those who were just on this team in 2011 and are now FAs.
It’s difficult to say, since we don’t know what kind of market is going to develop for these guys.
On a talent basis, Barmes is probably the best SS who might be open to signing with us, so if we could get him for something approximating fair market value that’d be a reasonable signing (though not necessarily any better than picking up Cedeno’s option would’ve been). Ramon Santiago would be a similar option. Hiroyuki Nakajima would be interesting, if he gets posted, and if you think he’s a shortstop.
All the 3Bs suck. Best we could do I think is to give a NRI to DeRosa and hope for health and a dead-cat bounce on his numbers. Actually, that’s not true. The best we could do is move Walker to 3B and sign a respectable 2B to replace him (or give D’Arnaud a look at the position). But we won’t. (Note: I think Walker’s at least tolerable at 2B, but it’s a lot easier right now to find a 2B than a 3B.)
The catching situation sucks, and I don’t like any of the realistic options. I guess Shoppach might be a slight upgrade on a time share, if he came cheaply enough. But if we don’t want to totally punt the position next year, we’re looking at a trade.
For the outfield, I’d think about Crisp, DeJesus, Fukudome, and maybe Pagan if the Mets drop him. Norichika Aoki too, if he ends up being posted. It’d be nice to get a big bat rather than a glove-first guy, but that just ain’t what’s out there, so we go where the value is and make do and mend later. Willingham’s going to get too much money from somebody, Kubel’s basically the same player as Jones, and that’s pretty much all she wrote. I could maybe see a cheap one-year deal for Thames as a platoon partner for Jones if the scouts sign off on him (since he’s old and looked bad last year) and if we can’t get an actual starter.
As far as SP, we’re fucked. The absolutely best-case scenario for us at this point is too much money and too many years for Joel Pineiro, or maybe a trade. There are a few decent minor league FA SPs out there this year (like Chuck James) so maybe we bag a few of those and stage a cattle call for the rotation. Or maybe we pay for a second-tier Japanese starter like Wada or Chen Wei-Yin.
quoted for truth
“Note: I think Walker’s at least tolerable at 2B, but it’s a lot easier right now to find a 2B than a 3B.”
A lot of people say like to say his bat won’t play as well at 3B, but if you look at the available options 3B may be as much of a premium spot as 2B.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 7, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
ummmmmm, no?
i consider Kubel quite easily the better hitter. you move him to 1B and the Legend’s new nickname is the Forgotten.
i consider Kubel quite easily the better hitter.
Jones, 2009-2011: 111 OPS+
Kubel, 2009-2011: 118 OPS+
Doesn’t seem like that big a difference to me. And of the two, Jones is the better runner and the better fielder, which closes the gap even further.
(Not that he’s particularly good at running or fielding – just better than Kubel.)
kubel has nearly 100 more OPS against LHP than Jones
since Jones is looked upon as a platoon option at best, that pretty much eliminates the comparison.
He's a minus runner, no question.
But Kubel is worse. Ever since he blew out his knee, he moves like grim death.
...or a Molina.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 8, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
As opposed to joyful death?
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Nov 8, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
As opposed to joyful death?
Not sure exactly how joyful death moves, but it’s probably something high-energy. I’m kind of imagining it skipping, or hopping, or running around wildly like a two-year-old…
joyful death
I’m imagining the execution scene from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life. Still only something like a 40 for speed, I’d guess.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 8, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
I have asked this before
No one ever gives a very good answer. Sadly, most Pirate fans have become so jaded that only players with mystical powers who will play for peanuts are the only players they want. I’m not gonna run out and buy season tickets if we sign Clint Barmes, but he certainly seems like a better option that what we have got. Jamey Carroll defensively is not an everyday shortstop, but would be a great utility guy to have. I’d be OK with Gonzalez at SS if (and the same goes for Barmes) it’s a short deal at the right price.
It’s just a function of the fact that the FA market doesn’t work for the Pirates, especially not with a FO that’s dead set against overpaying, which of course is the only way the PIrates have a chance to sign a useful player. Aside from a reliever or two, the Pirates’ FA signings not only haven’t helped, but have almost always made things worse. So it’s not hard to see why people are pretty sour on the whole process.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Nov 6, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
"who would we be happy with?"
Ronny Cedeno
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 6, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
i wont disagree
with that, but its not happening now, so who can i hear some names of some other players we would be happy with. and by happy with i mean who makes sense to sign
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Yeah, I was just sayin'
P.S. – I think there’s a chance Ronny returns.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 6, 2011 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
That's because
they all seem to be over the hill!
Just Ducky
Signing Ducky Schofield fornext year will do the trick. SS is taken care of.
you know who i have personally wanted the pirates to acquire via trade for like the past year now? rangers SS prospect Jurickson Profar. i’ve actually followed the progress of him since I saw him play in the 2005 Little League World Series (i went to Williamsport and watched a few days worth of games when I was 12) since I was the same age as him at the time. he dominated the LLWS that year and actually showed some skills that made him stand out unlike anyone else. granted I know he was 12 at the time, but I could tell that he was very fundamentally sound at short for a 12 year old and had a great swing. and if he kept at it for those 4 years after, he could for sure be signed at age16 by a major league club. and what do you know, he’s like the rangers top prospect now and a top 20 prospect in the MLB. played in the futures game this year in AZ with an amazing performance, only 18 years old, some say he’s the top SS prospect over machado too. in addition, i’ve heard his name multiple times as a trade chip since the rangers already have a young SS in andrus
MLB.com scouting report of Profar
“Just 18, the Curacao native has the potential to do a little bit of everything while playing a premium position. He’s got all the tools to be a plus defensive shortstop, especially a plus arm that had some thinking of him as a pitcher after he starred in the Little League World Series. He’s not a burner, but he runs well and is an excellent baserunner. A switch-hitter, he has the chance to hit for average and some power and already shows an advanced knowledge of the strike zone, especially for his age. He works hard and gets very good grades for his makeup. His upside is potentially a terrific all-around shortstop who plays up the middle at an All-Star-caliber level.”
Expensive price
I can think of about 3 teams that wouldn’t want him. And that’s assuming the Marlins sign a long term deal with Hanley Ramirez.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
Honestly, I have no problem with this
Sure, he could implode at the plate in 2012, but then again you can say the same about Cedeno. I still would’ve kept Cedeno around as a utility guy, but that’s water under the bridge.
Barmes
I think Barmes is a pretty good option, assuming a fair price (not necessarily a good assumption for the Pirates, though maybe Hurdle can have some influence here).
One thing to note about him is that TZ and +/- like his defense even more than UZR does. FSR loves him, too. He looks like a +10 defender, give or take. His baserunning is also very good, according to fangraphs. His offense is bad, but it’s not Cedeno-bad or (heaven forbid) Ciriaco-bad. Overall, he looks like a 2-3 WAR player, which I would be very happy with at SS. He seems like the kind of guy who might be underrated by the market, and if he could be had for two years and $10M or so I would be very satisfied.
Cedeno
Weren’t there issues this year and last with Cedeno not listening and having those mental lapses? We don’t know what’s been going on in the clubhouse the last couple years, and that may play a role in whether Cedeno is brought back or not. Intangibles like attitude do play a role in terms of a winning player/organization.
Question on Barmes...
is will he fit into Pirates price range? He made almost $4M last season. They didn’t want to hold on to Cedeno for $3M.
The consistent pattern in the past has always been that if any other team is interested, the Pirates won’t sign him.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Do you see a rival for Barmes as a starting SS?
Cedeno didn’t have a clear rival, but they still declined his option.
Doesn’t matter anyway. There’ll probably be some other team interested in Barmes, so the Pirates won’t sign him. When you’re a traditional doormat team in a small market and you’re not willing to pay one dime over your “internal value,” all you get are the players nobody else wants. Which is why it was a bad idea to let Cedeno and Maholm go. They had no choice about staying.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Nov 7, 2011 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for this
Which is why it was a bad idea to let Cedeno and Maholm go. They had no choice about staying.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
From whom?
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Nov 7, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
According to MLBTR
everybody and their uncle was linked to him at some point, but the only one that’s mentioned as having made an actual offer were the D-backs.
Between him and Ramon Vazquez, I hope the D-backs have sent the Bucs a nice “Thanks for saving us from ourselves” card.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 7, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think you misunderstood Roberto's question
The question is, would any other team sign Barmes and give him the starting job? If not, he has added incentive to sign with us, the way Dotel did.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 7, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
The question is, would any other team sign Barmes and give him the starting job?
Sure, lots. He’s no worse than the third or fourth best option at the position on the FA market, and there are at least that many teams looking for new SSs.
OK, then
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 7, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Clint Barmes
Good utilityman for a contending team. As a regular SS for the Pirates, chalk up another sub-.500 season next year.
Barmes has almost 0 effect on the Pirates 2012 season
This season was decided years ago. Blaming it on Barmes or Cedeno or anyone else is a scapegoat.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Nov 7, 2011 7:40 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The thing is, even if Barmes doesn’t hit at all, he’s probably their best option for next year. Mercer’s too far away from being ready, and d’Arnaud is terrible both offensively and defensively. Barmes is the least worst option I see for a reasonable price.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
Absolutely correct.
Rather than being terrible, I’d argue that d’Arnaud is horrific, based on the sample thus far.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
by Bishop1973 on Nov 7, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yup
these crazy kids who don’t overvalue players just because they wear Black and Gold. Probably the same ones who think Overbay was washed up.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 7, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
the same ones who keep saying we had a winning record with Overbay.
And Rafael Belliard has a World Series ring, which makes him a better shortstop than Ernie Banks.
Seriously, dude, give it a rest. It’s possible for a winning team to win in spite of a bad player, just like it’s possible for a losing team to lose in spite of a good one.
by Vlad on Nov 8, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not better
just one you’d rather have on your team. Its not all about stats, Vlad, its about spirit. RBells knew how to win, while Mr. Banks obviously did not. His “stats” cloud the point that he was awful, anyone can see that. I saw him commit an error once, and I never saw RBells do that. Never saw it. Its the Hall of Fame, because Banks was famous, not because he was good, or a winner. Its not the hall of really good, its the hall of FAME!! If they had a hall of super awesome championship players, Banks wouldn’t be in it.
You stat-heads with all your stats make me sick. You depend on numbers, like RBI, and Runs, and HR, while the real fan just watches. You make baseball into a amalgam of numbers and percentages. Just let us real fans watch the game and judge talent by the only thing that counts, our eyes. That’s right, our untrained, biased eyes mixed with selective memories and confirmation bias makes the only formula you really need. Like I said, I never saw RBells make an error.
Runs don’t count, only wins. With Overbay we were inning, no maktter how may “runs” (another stat) that he cost us. Take off the blinders. Your “numbers revolution” is a sham.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 8, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
i never said NOT to replace Overbay, by the way. i said to not replace him with Pena.
i just love watching you guys get all bent out of shape about Lyle.
pretty funny seing how frustrated you get about it.
its kinda like dangling that carrot out in front of that jackass and watching him continue to go on and on, never succeeding on getting the veggie but oh so helplessly drawn to it.
Nothing wrong with Barmes..
..as long as it’s not a significant over-pay, of course.. but that’s pretty much the case with everyone I guess.
Add this to the Christmas List of things that won’t happen, but… Any chance on Jimmy Rollins? I’m sure there will be a million suitors, but he’ll assuredly be cheaper than Reyes, would still fit into a nice 3-4 year window here in Pittsburgh, and has been pretty good even in down years.
Before anyone jumps on my back about this never happening, I know this. Just curious whether we’d like it or not. Seems at his very worst, J-Roll is a 700 OPS player, and at his best (maybe one season left of that?) he’s an 800 815 OPS guy.
3 years / 42 million? Club option for a 4th/56mil?
No and no.
No chance we sign him, and no, I’d not want to pay him 3/42 or 4/56.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 7, 2011 7:52 AM EST up reply actions
PNC would be horrible for his "power"
Left field is the exact opposite of Houston. That said, I love his glove, and unless the Pirates are going to learn to strike people out, I think he’s a good guy to have for 2 years/10mil. Plus the Hurdle factor means it could actually happen, and I don’t think the Pirates’ refusal to pay Ronny $3mil means they won’t pay someone else 5.
I don’t think the Pirates’ refusal to pay Ronny $3mil means they won’t pay someone else 5.
Sure, but is Barmes that much of an upgrade at the position to warrant giving him a 67% raise over what they could have paid Cedeno by just exercising the option?
I have no problem with the Pirates spending money on players provided they are actual upgrades that will materially impact the team’s performance and not just “the grass is greener on the other side of the fence” deals. IMHO, giving Clint Barmes $5MM for one year is the latter rather than the former.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
If Clint can give the team a slight upgrade on both offense and defense, while removing the headcase Cedeno from the lineup, I would say it is well worth the extra $1-2M it is going to cost the team. Remove the ill timed bunts, brainfarts on the bases, and occasional disinterest in the field and you have a pretty decent upgrade. And I was/am on of the bigger Cedeno supporters here.
Barmes is demonstrably better than Ronny and easily worth $2M more. Over the last three years, Barmes has been -11.5 runs per 600 PA on offense (including baserunning) and +13.5 runs on defense (according to UZR; TZ and DRS are even more favorable). Cedeno has been -18.7 on offense and +1.3 on defense during the same time period. That’s almost two full wins of difference between them. Barmes for $5M would be a very good signing.
Barmes for $5M would be a very good signing.
(Assuming that he doesn’t go into decline, of course. He is 33, and at that age, a guy can drop off at any minute.)
At least if he signs here voluntarily, that would make it less likely that he goes into a deep funk over being on the Pirates and eats himself out of playing shape over the offseason.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Nov 8, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
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