Neal Huntington: Arbitration Decisions Will Be Surprising
Yep. It sounds like Garrett Jones won't be back.
"We're going to non-tender some players that people don't want us to non-tender," Huntington said. "We're going to tender some players that probably surprise some people. But those are the business decisions that we have to make. Every year, arbitration is going to organically drive up payroll higher."
My sense is that this isn't just a stock line, but it's also worth pointing out here that when the bloggers spoke to Huntington last summer, he said virtually the same thing with regard to his valuation of prospects - that they might trade some players who would be surprising, and roster others who would be surprising.
102 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
More worrisome than a GFJ non-tender....
…is this:
We’re going to tender some players that probably surprise some people
Dear God, PLEASE don’t let that mean the return of Ross Ohlendorf.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
I think the only four who would really qualify as “surprising” tenders at this point would be Ludwick, Ohlendorf, Pearce, and Wood.
Any of those 4 brought back...
…and it’ll be time for me to start drinking heavily
I could actually live with Wood on the bench, I suppose. But that’s it.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
I would be happy if they tendered Wood
and Ludwick wouldn’t make my stomach acid flare up. Pearce would kill my BP.
Ludwick would give me chronic acid reflux
For a team with the finances of the Pirates to give 7MM+ to a guy who, barring an Old Testament style miracle, will hit .245/.350/.375 with 11 HR AT THE ABSOLUTE ROSE COLORED OPTIMISTIC BEST would be beyond reckless and stupid.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
And I think I was too optimistic about Ludwick's best
.240/.330/.350 is probably his ceiling these days.
That said, I don’t expect it. Ludwick would be as crazy to tender as to non-tender Hanrahan.
I just fear it’s hello Ross again, here’s the 5th starter job.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Being that non-tender doesn't relate to him
yes, it would be surprising.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 9, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
I was thinking of offering you arbitration too...
This is your first year, right?
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.
by gorillakilla34 on Nov 9, 2011 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
Correct me if I'm wrong...
Pearce and Wood were outrighted and became free agents? Do we still have to tender them?
Upon reflection, I think you’re right about them already being FAs. My bad.
by Vlad on Nov 9, 2011 10:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ridiculous....
If that is how it plays out. Certainly not encouraging words, but I’ll do my best to withhold judgment until we have more info.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
by David Todd on Nov 9, 2011 3:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I agree
And This is just about the weirdest begining to an offseason ever. Also Dtodd whats the deal with Pirate fest being in december? Whats the reasoning behind that? Just curious, if you knew anything about it.
age of last winning season: 5
The Piratefest thing does strike me as odd. At this rate they might not have half a roster at that point in the offseason.
Guess that...
Cutch, Walker, Karstens, Hanrahan and McDonald are gonna be busy during Piratefest. Aren’t too many players to send that aren’t tied up in winter ball.
Am I the only one wondering if.....
I’m the one who’s been drinking the Kool-aid? Have Bob and the Smizikians been right all along?
Is it possible management does something to redeem itself? Signing Ramon Hernandez, Derrek Lee, Clint Barmes, and Chris Capuano would not go very far towards their redemption in my world. It’s been very strange lately as a Pirates and Penn State fan.
What other sports could I follow in the summer? NASCAR? Soccer? WNBA? Wait…I hate all three of those things. I’ve got it… women’s beach volleyball! Plus I like the way women’s beach volleyball players jiggle better than the way Prince Fielder jiggles, especially when doing a HR trot around the PNC base paths!
Or you could at least petition for a skimpier outfit for Fielder’s HR trot…
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.
by gorillakilla34 on Nov 9, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
I find it increasingly hard to buy into the view...
….that this is payroll being cleared out for a run at some superstar free agent. More and more I think it’s about banking cash in advance of spending dough when Cole/Taillon arrive full time in 2014*.
In other words, it’s looking more and more like those who believed the declining of the options signaled that 2012 would be a 68-94 punt were exactly correct
*-Assuming all goes well and they make it to the bigs by then
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
I wonder...
…could they be thinking about offering Ludwick arbitration and using Presley as 4th OF?
I mean, it’s insanity to fork over 7MM to a guy who put up a .671 OPS in 38 games with the team last season, but it would certainly be surprising.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
maybe a platoon
Ludwick can still hit lefties
~7MM for a platoon player?
No thanks.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
It’s “not about the money” except when it IS “about the money”. [/snark]
Certainly, Neil wouldn’t be stupid enough to non-tender Karstens and/or Hanrahan? Or would he? Those are the two other than Jones that might run up a little money. I’m not sure that Meek and Bad Veras are going to break the bank.
There is no chance Huntington will non-tender Hanrahan. None. I haven’t agreed with a lot of his moves recently, but that one would be absolutely senseless.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Nov 9, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
No chance of non-tendering Hanrahan...
…but don’t be surprised if they wind up trading him before next season.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
For the appropriate return.....
That’s what they should do.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
by David Todd on Nov 9, 2011 4:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
For the appropriate return…..
That’s what they should do.
Actually, for an appropriate return, they should have moved him at last year’s trade deadline. There are tons of FA RPs available right now, which cuts into his value. Why trade top prospects for Hanrahan when you can get Papelbon for nothing but money?
when you can get Papelbon for nothing but money
… and a 1st round draft pick.
One of the thing I’ve never understood is the GM’s love for established closers. When you look at what the A’s, Angels and Astros were ready to give up for respectively Fuentes, Rodney and Lyons, you have to wonder how they can value a bad closer twice as much as a good setup guy.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this
Having an “elite” closer on the Pirates is like putting a $10K stereo in an ’89 Yugo.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
Non-Tender Hanrahan?
lol, if people think that the Pirates should tender a guy a contract, AND THEY DONT, doesn’t that usually mean that they are throwing away a guy with some trade value?
Why get nothing for something, and give something for nothing? NH isn’t having a good offseason so far.
They aren't
Going to non-tender Hanrahan. Let’s just end that conversation now.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
by David Todd on Nov 9, 2011 4:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Then again...
I never thought they’d non-tender Capps.
Except that Capps was sub-replacement level the season he got non-tendered, while Hanrahan was one of the ten most valuable relievers in baseball this year, per fWAR.
Again, not happening.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
If the Pirates...
non-tendered any player that had a bad year…they’d have a difficult time filling a roster the last few years.
I'm not saying that non-tendering Capps was a good idea.
But it doesn’t even approach the epic, monumental level of insanity that a Hanrahan non-tender would involve.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
Who are the surpising
non tender candidates? Garret Jones? Am I missing anyone else?
Other than Jones...
…most of the non-tender surprises (if in fact there are any) will come from the bullpen: you’d expect Meek, Resop, Veras and Grilli to all be tendered. And they should be. If they aren’t, NH has a lot of ’splaining to do.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Maybe not all of them
I could live with pretty much any one of those guys being non-tendered. Not saying I’d advocate it, but I’d chalk it up to more of a scouting decision than pointless cash-saving. If they non-tendered more than one, I’d want a serious explanation.
Why do I get the feeling...
…Resop will be non-tendered & Jon Rauch signed?
Big. Pitcher. Throw. hard. ACTIVATE NEAL HUNTINGTON CAVEMAN BRAIN
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
if they Resop go, I'm gonna be pissed
I know he had his ups and downs but I still think he’s going to be a solid 7th/8th inning guy for us.
Really?
I thought resop was going to step up this year and be a dominate bullpen guy. I was pretty dissapointed. The dude throws nothing but 95 mph fast balls over the plate, and at times seems like he has no other pitch and looked very very hittable for stretches.
age of last winning season: 5
yeah, I'm fully aware I'm in the minority
and very willing to admit I’m probably wrong. Can’t back up my position with stats whatsoever. He’s just one of those guys I get a good vibe from.
Can’t back up my position with stats whatsoever.
Well then, here you go. Resop had a K/9 rate over 10 last year, and posted an xFIP of 3.53. He’s not a brilliant option, because his walk rate and GB/FB ratio are a bit ugly, but he’s certainly worth the amount he’d get in arb (which can’t be more than $1.5M, though I’m not an expert in these matters).
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
thanks!
I was more trying to say that I can’t support my gut instinct that he’s better than he showed this year. But yeah, good rationale for keeping him.
i was in favor
of trying him at SP before last season, but yes I do agree, resop seems to have value. a non-tender would be slightly surprising
Ranch isn't bad, if he's healthy.
All depends on the price.
by Vlad on Nov 9, 2011 10:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I prefer thousand island
preferably healthy, as well
With NH’s track-record at building a cheap and effective bullpen and how our lineup and rotation look like (especially if Jones is non-tendered), our bullpen is the least of my worries right now.
But I absolutely want those compensation draft picks for Doumit and Lee.
Now that I think about it, do you guys think NH’s weird lack of interest in offering arbitration to our type-B FA means the new CBA will not grant a draft pick for type-B FA ?
IMO, It’s quite unlikely Doumit or Lee would accept arbitration.
But, in the Pirates’ perspective, regardless of what us fans think, if the new CBA actually removes the compensation for type-B FA, offering arbitration to those two goes from “good upside (2 more draft picks) with a potential downside (paying 2 guys you don’t really want)” to “zero upside whatsoever”.
That’s why I’m asking if the CBA may have an impact.
by From France on Nov 10, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe
but I would be surprised if the new CBA changes are go into effect this off season. Teams are already making decisions, and it would seem unfair to change horses midsream.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 10, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
I wish
NH would talk to the media less. He’s not the most polished in that area.
Unfortunately...
if Neal doesn’t talk to the media, Frank will, and that’s just as bad, if not worse.
I think (and hope) Ohlendorf will be a surprise tender. At $2-3 million there is enough potential there based on his 2009 and 2010 to make him a good risk. And some might be surprised if they tender Grilli, but Hurdle seemed to have a lot of confidence in him. Surprise non-tenders might be Resop and Veras, and possibly Meek if they don’t think he can get his velocity back. All three are reasonably affordable so I would be surprised if they let them go, but Huntington probably feels plenty confident that he can rebuild a bullpen.
And I agree on Jones (though I want to see him back).
i wouldnt be surprised to see Meek non tendered... that arm may take alot more time to get back to its old form, if it ever does
Had the same thought
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Rather give Lincoln a chance to "put up or shut up' so to speak..
….at the 5th starter spot for less money than bring Ross back. A glance at Fangraphs shows his ‘09 & ’10 seasons weren’t as great as a lot of people like to make them out to be.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
i say try to bring ohlendorf back on a minor league deal
Stash him at AAA for insurance. If Chrarlie Morton isnt going to be healthy they almost have to bring him back on a major league deal, or we wont have anyone to pitch the first molnth or so.
age of last winning season: 5
Veras & Resop are not going to be NT
….trust me.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 9, 2011 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
Good
Two very solid bullpen options are nice to have around.
before everyone freaks
Remember, FC & NH looked Clint Hurdle in the eyes and told him they were “ALL IN”.
by Danatural08 on Nov 9, 2011 5:34 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Unfortunately
What he meant was that they were all-in on a major poker game, and so they had to strip the team of all resources.
Bob Nutting went ALL-IN with Bodog while betting on the Pirates, and now he has to slash payroll. Whoops!!!
by Charlie Wilmoth on Nov 9, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Has anyone seriously considered the idea that these non-tenders are a lead up to a major offer for one of the big FAs? I don’t necessarily support that strategy, but what other reason is there for all this?
I considered it
And promptly rejected it
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
An offer yes
saying they tried and not signing them, the correct answer
Trouble is
even if it were the case, it would still be a bad idea. They’ve given up so many wins, at so many positions, that even Pujols would barely get them to 72 wins in ‘12. And that’s setting aside the foolishness of putting all your eggs in a basket like that.
I might add that even the idea of banking $$ to buy an FA in a couple years isn’t sustainable. Let’s say they could afford a $60M payroll in ‘12, but spend only $30M. In 2013 revenue will be down and payroll will be up, so they would only bank (say) $20M. Then they go and make a huge splash by signing the best/youngest FA on the market in 2014. They have $50M “extra”, but that kind of FA is going to get at least $30M per year – and Cutch starts getting mighty pricey in ’14. Point being, that $50M fund only pays for a year or two of a game-changing FA, or maybe defrays $10M/year of a 5 year contract (and studs don’t sign for less than 5 years). They’re not really ahead of the game, and it only succeeds at a huge risk (having $50M in the bank doesn’t make a Werth-like contract somehow palatable).
Seeing as how the FO has said they’re not going to be signing any marquee FAs, I’d have to say no.
What it might be is a prelude to going after a couple second tier FAs. So, after those guys turn them down, there’ll be plenty of money to bring in twice as many Overbays and Correias as last year.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Nov 9, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
Meh.
After the Cedeno flap, isn’t non-tendering Jones pretty much par for the course? Both fringe starters (or, at worst, useful bench guys), both making only a couple million dollars, and both sent packing. If this actually happens, I’d be annoyed, but certainly not surprised.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
frustrating
Aside from the possible tenders and non-tenders, which we can only speculate on, it’s frustrating that NH continues to talk to the media about this stuff. He complained about how word of Capps’s impending non-tender destroyed any hope of trading him. He also had a similar experience with Maholm, where he was apparently searching in vain for a trade partner even after it was clear we were going to decline his option. But here he’s doing it again, letting everyone know that he’s going to let players walk rather than pay them. Guys like Jones and Resop have value; even if you don’t want to pay them to play for you, you can trade them for C prospects or (in Jones’s case) maybe even more. But who’s going to give anything up for Garrett Jones when the Pirate GM is all but saying he’s going to be a free agent in a month?
NH is really starting to piss me off.
It does feel kind of strange to talk about non-tendering Jones in a market where Juan Rivera can get a two-year deal.
by Vlad on Nov 9, 2011 10:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm sure...
if the Pirates non-tender Jones, he’ll land on his feet pretty quickly.
It might be a good idea to wait until we find out who gets non-tendered. It may just be Ohlie and Veras, or something like that.
The part about hanging onto guys people don’t want is actually more ominous. Maybe they’re going to tender XP and Ciriaco, which would be a waste of two roster spots. Three, if they hang onto Pagnohit, too. It’d be an absolute travesty to keep all three, or even two of the three. Or maybe NH thinks people want Ohlie gone and they’re going to keep him. Sometimes NH’s pronouncements sound more momentous than they turn out to be.
Of course, I thought they’d pick up Cedeno’s option.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
The most distressing thing is that he’s talking about it at all. He’s had multiple experiences where speculation about non-tenders and not exercising options has cratered the value of his players, yet he continues to actively fuel such speculation. It’s mind-bogglingly stupid.
Why does he talk about this stuff while on the other hand refusing to state the projected payroll for 2012? He’s said in the past that giving a payroll figure decreases leverage in negotiations, since it lets agents know how much you have to spend. But for some idiotic reason he doesn’t feel the same compulsion to protect the trade value of his players. It’s just another instance of how he (or maybe the organization as a whole under Nutting) seem(s) obsessed with value but unconcerned about talent.
The only way I can see any sense to what they appear to be doing
is if they are planning to use the money saved on the options not exercised and players non tendered to buy out one or more of Cutch’s FA years with a large front-loaded contract. They may figure that 2012 is going to be a bad year regardless of what they do so that it makes more sense to use cash currently available to make them better in years that they might be able to compete – 2016 and possibly 2017.
Nobody ever does front-loaded contracts. Teams hate them because they cost more (due to the miracle of compound interest) and agents hate them because they look smaller than their true value.
by Vlad on Nov 9, 2011 10:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Is it possible he's speaking of Doumit and/or Lee??
He technically can’t “non-tender” them but he could not tender them… (shrug) I dunno
I'm not sure about the rules here : can you "non-tender" a player who's past his arbitration years ?
I thought at that point you could only let him go or offer him arbitration …
That's what I meant by "not tender"
as opposed to “non-tender”
And judging by our signing of Barajas I’d say we are not going to tender Doumit arbitration so this could very well have been what NH meant.
Harsh, very harsh
“Going from Cam Bonifay to Dave Littlefield is like recovering from a raging case of whooping cough only to learn you have leprosy.”
Lino Donoso
Yeah...
I always thought CB/DL should have been in first place in that article.
You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu
by IAPiratesFan on Nov 10, 2011 1:33 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions

by 















