So Now What?

by KentuckyPirate on Dec 10, 2011 2:51 PM EST

With the Winter Meetings over, the Pirates have made some pretty substantial roster moves already. Having said that, I think most people would agree that if the Bucs did nothing else the rest of this offseason, they would go into Spring Training with a lot of holes. On various threads, people have thrown around all kinds of names, proposals and rumors. So I'm going to ask you to play GM. If you were running the Pirates, what would you do to make this offseason as successful as possible. Your solution could be standing pat and going with a Jones/Hague platoon at first. You could also suggest signing Prince Fielder and Yu Darvish if you were willing to spend $300M but I'd be interested in hearing how you justify a crazy shopping spree like that. Whatever move(s) you suggest, include the terms as well. While I realize there is no way to know for sure what trades or contract offers would be accepted, try to make it realistic. Not to sound like a prick but don't suggest trading Dan Grovatt for Brandon Belt or signing Yu Darvish to a 1 year/800K deal.

I'll get it started. Step one is signing Cutch to an extension. I know this might sound overly simplistic and I can't imagine anybody out there who wouldn't want McCutchen to stay in Pittsburgh but I really think the Bucs need to make this a priority over the next few months. I would offer him a 5 year/$50M deal ($5M, $7M, $10M, $13M, $15M) with a mutual option for a 6th year at $18M. My next move would be signing Wei-Yin Chen. Obviously, there are some concerns about his health but if everything checks out and his velocity is back to the 91-92 range, I think he could be a valuable starter for the next few years. I'd go with 4 years and $22M (this seems to be in the middle of the offers I've seen suggested for Chen). I'd also try to address 1B...who wouldn't? I think my target would be Billy Butler. I've posted before that I don't think Butler is worth the price but I think there's a way to make it work. If you assume Butler's good for about 3 WAR a year, his total trade value is about $23.5M. I think the best way to get this done is trying to work out a 3-way deal. I know it can be tough trying to predict 3-team deals but I'm going to try. The market for closers has been absolutely crazy this offseason. I'd call up Boston and offer them Joel Hanrahan if they would send Xander Bogaerts to Kansas City. Bogaerts is a 19 year old SS that just had a season that was very similar to Jurickson Profar's. His K:BB rate is a little scary but he can hit, especially for a SS. If I had to guess, I'll bet he winds up as a 51-75 hitting prospect which would be worth $14.2M. Since Hanrahan's value is about $20.8M, the Pirates might be able to get a little bit more out of the deal. This might seem crazy but I'd ask Boston to include Jose Iglesias in the deal as well. He had a ton of trouble hitting this season so I have a hard time believing he'd rate better than B-prospect despite his glove. That gives him a value of $5.5M and the total package a value of $19.7M. It's at least conceivable they'd go for it. To complete the deal with KC, we'd have to come up with another $9.3M in value. I'd try to get this done by sending Brad Lincoln to the Royals. With 5 years of control left, Lincoln would only have to come up with about 4 total WAR to be worth it and I don't think that's much of a stretch. The Pirates would be adding about $17.5M in payroll with Cutch's extension, Butler and Chen but they would be saving about $4M by dealing Hammer. This means they'll have an opening day payroll around $56M which isn't out of the question.

So there's my proposal. Yeah, it's probably nothing more than a pipedream but I also don't think it's completely out of the question either. Go ahead comment on my proposal or make your own if you want. Either way, it's fun to think about...

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

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McCutchen. Don’t trade any prospects inside our top 10. Play baseball games.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 10, 2011 9:24 PM EST reply actions

Gonna get flamed to hell and gone for this...

….but what fun is the internet if people don’t mock your ideas & make you feel stupid, AMIRITE?!

Since it’s late and I’m doing nothing more exciting than letting the chinchilla hop around, I took the time to sketch out this quick thumbnail of possible moves. This (or something like it) would be what I’d try to do if I were NH

-Sign Carlos Pena to a 3 year/$25MM deal ($8.5MM in 2012, $8MM in 2013, $7.5MM in 2014, $7.25MM team option for 2015 with a $1MM buyout)

-Sign Edwin Jackson to a 3 year/$31.5MM deal ($9MM in 2012, $10MM in 2013, $11MM in 2014, team option for $11.5MM in 2015, $1.5MM buyout)

-Option Daniel McCutchen to AAA. Option Brad Lincoln back to AAA after Morton returns to duty; use him as 5th starter in the rotation until then. Non-tender Jose Veras. Send Gustavo Nunez back to Detroit.

-Trade Kevin Correia and $3MM in salary for a PTBNL

“everyday” Starting lineup

C: Rod Barajas – $4MM

1B: Carlos Pena – $8.5MM

2B: Neil Walker – $480K

SS: Clint Barmes – $5MM

3B: Pedro Alvarez – $700K

LF: Alex Presley – $480K

CF: Andrew McCutchen – $500K

RF: Jose Tabata – $750K

Total cost: $20,410,000

Bench

Mike McKenry – $97,500

Garrett Jones – $2.4MM

Nate McLouth – $1.75MM

Josh Harrison – $480K

Yamaico Navarro $480K

Total Cost: $5,207,500

Starting Rotation

Edwin Jackson – $9MM

Erik Bedard – $4.5MM

Charlie Morton – $2.1MM

Jeff Karstens – $2.8MM

James McDonald – $480K

Total Cost: $18,880,000

Bullpen

Joel Hanrahan – $4MM

Evan Meek – $900K

Chris Resop – $1.1MM

Jason Grilli – $800K

Chris Leroux – $480K

Tony Watson – $480K

Daniel Moskos – $78,250

Total Cost: $7,838,250

Total salary costs: $52,335,750

Total buyout and salary relief costs: $5,200,000

Total Major League costs: $57,535,750

Batting order:

Presley
Tabata
McCutchen
Pena
Walker
Alvarez
Barajas
Barmes
Pitcher

All current salary/projected arb salaries taken from Pirates Prospects.

In a follow up comment to this I’ll type out my rationale for everything

Jose Tabata is the truth

The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.

by Raybin on Dec 10, 2011 11:03 PM EST reply actions

Reasoning

1) Trading Correia gets him off the roster and you’re going to have to eat salary to get anyone to take him. Someone will take him on under those terms I have to believe.

2) The bullpen is a little crowded so someone’s going to get squeezed out. Veras was good last year, but looking at our other options vis a vis cost, I’d rather pay Chris Leroux $480K to see what he can do than Veras $1.3MM. Moskos is an in-house LOOGY option for less than $100K. Cheap and might as well get some consistent use out of him. DCutch is the other casualty; he has 1 option left, so sending him back to AAA to bake a little more could be the best thing for him. Not as high on him as some others were. Grilli, Leroux and Watson are all more than capable of working some innings in long relief.

3) The free agent signings: I think these guys could make the Pirates competitive at a reasonable price while bridging the gap to Cole, Taillon, et al. None of those contracts are crippling in either the short or long term; in fact both would be up before Cutch hit free agency, so you wouldn’t have to sacrifice him out of concern for paying them. We’ve been ‘round and ’round about Pena, but look at the Bucs’s other 1B options and tell me who there is. Pena has the glove to not hurt us and the lefty power that can fall in love with the Clemente Wall. Go to Hit Tracker and see what I mean.

Jackson is the closest thing the Bucs can get to a front-of-the-rotation starter on the free agent market and can be gone by the time the kids arrive.

Plus; this way they don’t give up any prospects to fill those holes, only money. Money can be replaced; prospects are gone forever. Those contracts are also pretty tradeable if it comes to it. I think Pena would take that deal because I"m not sure he’s likely to get many other 3 year offers.

Management has said they can spend money somewhere in the $50MM+ range and this certainly falls within that.

If the chips fall right—Cutch and Tabata break out for good, Alvarez finds his stroke, Presley turns out to really be the kind of hitter we all hope he is—this is a team that can compete the next three seasons without mortgaging one whit of the future and keeping things within a realistic cost.

Jose Tabata is the truth

The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.

by Raybin on Dec 10, 2011 11:13 PM EST up reply actions

Hit tracker?

OK, great. that proves that if you pitch around Pena or jam him inside with everything he’ll be even more worthless than he was. Noooo, nobody in MLB is going to think of that. let’s just take a chance at $8.5 million for at least 2 years and hope everyone else is in MLB is stupid.

by Brakeman8 on Dec 11, 2011 2:05 AM EST up reply actions

It just like

How everyone figured out that if you throw Pedro Alvarez low and away, you may walk him, but most likely he will swing and miss. Either way, you have eliminated the power threat. At least Pedro is young and can adjust. Pena is old and set in his ways.

by Brakeman8 on Dec 11, 2011 2:06 AM EST up reply actions

To be fair

you are essentially saying that its super easy to make Carlos Pena a worthless hitter because he has an open and obvious weakness. However, over the past five years, Pena has averaged 34 HRs/year, has a .366 OBP, a .269 ISO and 132 OPS+. So you might think that it’s really easy to make him “even more worthless than he was” but people seem to have a pretty tough time actually doing it. I’ll admit signing Pena for three years would make me a little nervous too but I don’t get the hatred some people seem to have for him.

by KentuckyPirate on Dec 11, 2011 9:08 AM EST up reply actions

I love how everyone who supports wasting money on Pena looks at the last 5 years. let’s look at the last two years of an older declining player who struggles to hit over .200 and 28 HRs.

by Brakeman8 on Dec 11, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions

I'm not sure

why it’s more fair to limit it to the last two years just because that will amplify the bad 2010 season Pena had. But, ok let’s just look at the last two years. Pena has averaged 28 HRs/year, has a .341 OBP, a .224 ISO and a 113 OPS+ (he’s also coming off a year where those numbers were even higher, .357/.237/123). Garrett Jones has averaged 18 HRs, has a .312 OBP, a .177 ISO and a 100 OPS+ over the past two years. Nick Evans, in a career with fewer than 400 ABs has 8 HRs, a .305 OBP, a .151 ISO and a 92 OPS+.

I have never seen a single person suggesting that Pena is a superstar or that he will match his incredible 2007 production (although it is at least possible that Pena could have a career resurgence and put up an OPS near 1.000 and there’s no way the Pirates could get that kind of production out of a Jones/Evans platoon unless the league decides to let them use metal bats). All anybody has said about Pena is that he would be an upgrade for the Pirates over what they currently have and I don’t think that is especially debatable. Pena would, obviously be more expensive but he is not going to cost so much that he would prevent the team from spending money elsewhere. Giving $8M/year to Carlos Pena is not going to be the reason the Pirates don’t sign Player X if the team determines that the new player is worth the money.

by KentuckyPirate on Dec 11, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions

Really???

You think it’s more likely he will play like he did at 29 – 31 years old at age 34 than he did at ages 32-33? Or the 5 years prior to his glory days?

I’m not saying that Pena won’t produce a high WAR than Jones/Evans would, but I don’t think it would be enough to warrant a 3 – 4 year agreement with him at 8 mill+ per season. I mean your suggestion has us giving him guaranteed money for ages 35 and 36 as well plus and option at 37….seriously? The reality is his production is more than likely never getting back to the levels of ’07 – ’09 and more likely to even decline from his two most recent seasons….or at least remain at those lower levels.

I am not a big fan of going with Jones/Evans at 1B, but unless the production increase is substantial, I’m not willing to hand over 6 or 7 million more per season.

Using your logic we should go sign Jason Bay. I mean, he could come and produce like he did in ’08 and ’09, but the reality is he is more likely the guy who has been a dud the last two seasons.

by Brakeman8 on Dec 11, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions

I didn't say he was more likely

to match his 29-31 season (although he has a better chance at putting up those numbers than Jones/Evans). I also didn’t suggest that we sign Pena, especially to a four year deal. My preference would be trading for Billy Butler. I just think your classification of Pena as a “worthless” player is inaccurate and unfair. If we did decide to pursue Pena, I would be most comfortable with a two year deal but I could be persuaded into a 3rd year if the price was right. Bay is also not a reasonable comparison because (1) he’s due to make $16M/season, not $8M and (2) he’s been awful over the past two season whereas Pena has still been productive-see numbers above.

If I had to guess, I’d say if Pena came to Pittsburgh, we could count on him for about 25 HRs/year, an OBP above .350 and an OPS over .800. These are not elite numbers but for a 1B with a decent glove, it’s worth $8M/year.

by KentuckyPirate on Dec 11, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions

Well, ye…yes you did. You asked why I looked at only the last two years rather than the last 5. That’s exactly why. And I would say Jones/Evans have the same chance of hitting those levels that Pena did…because neither option will do that.

The Bay reference was to performance only, not $$$.

If Pena is going to K 165 times a season, he needs to hit 35-40 HR to be worth it to make up for all of those unproductive outs. He’s not going to do that.

Heck, you could spend less and sign Michael Cuddyer or another similar player and get the kind of production you describe (25 HR and 800 OPS) and NOT whiff 165 times. (remember, Jones gave you 16 HR and a .753 OPS in 130 fewer PAs, so again…the improvement you suggest is not much and certainly not going to make the team want to spend an additional 6-8 million a season to make it happen.

Again, I am not saying he isn’t better…but it is marginal and the cost is NOT worth it. It’s NOT gonna happen.

As for Butler,Time Dierkes says “The Royals view Billy Butler and Eric Hosmer as their 3-4 hitters long-term, so don’t look for Butler on the trade market this winter.”

by Brakeman8 on Dec 11, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions

Your last paragraph

is spot on. My thinking exactly.

Jose Tabata is the truth

The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.

by Raybin on Dec 11, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions

But your current 1B already posts those kind of numbers vs RHP. And at FAR less than 8 mill+ per season.

by Brakeman8 on Dec 12, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions

Truth be told

I’m a little nervous about Edwin Jackson. I don’t actually see that much difference between him and Paul Maholm. From ‘07-’10, Maholm averaged 191 innings, had a 4.54 ERA, a 1.424 WHIP and had a 1.99 K:BB ratio. Over the same span, Jackson averaged 192 innings with a 4.49 ERA, a 1.460 WHIP and a 1.85 K:BB ratio. Jackson is 28 and Maholm is 29. Both players stepped up a little bit last season by posting ERAs in the mid-3’s. If the Pirates didn’t want to give Maholm $9.5M for one year, I can’t see them wanting to give Jackson $10.5M/year for the next three.

Having said that, if the Pirates do wind up signing Pena and Jackson before the season starts, you probably won’t hear me complaining.

by KentuckyPirate on Dec 11, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions

8.5 million for who? Carlos Pena?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha . I wouldn’t give him more than about $20 over what Jones/Evans are expected to make because that’s about of value he provides over sticking with what we have.

Did I mention I find this very funny?

by Brakeman8 on Dec 11, 2011 2:02 AM EST up reply actions

Okay....

New Pirates Blog: Buried Treasure

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 11, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions

Thanks

I try to offer a positive vision instead of bitching and it gets laughed at. Awesome.

So tempted to throw up my hands and say “Screw it” sometimes.

Jose Tabata is the truth

The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.

by Raybin on Dec 11, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions

nope

you gotta use the F word on this one

by white angus on Dec 12, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions

Hah

Let’s me try again then using the F word

“Fudge it!”

Jose Tabata is the truth

The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.

by Raybin on Dec 12, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions

I have no problems with the rest of it, but I just don’t get the love for Pena. I really don’t. The guy is going to give you 25 HRs and 170Ks. And he is going to be followed by Pedro in the line up?

by Brakeman8 on Dec 12, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions

Pena has a...

…better glove, better OBP, better power and was able put up 2.6 fWAR last year despite hitting .225. Even if he’d regress to 2 fWAR, 8 million is a fair price. And in the scenario I’d presented, Walker is slotted between him & Alvarez to help to some degree.

I don’t “love” Pena either, but what I was trying to do was maximize competitiveness over the next 3 seasons while not giving up any prospects. Looking at their other options, I’m not sure they could do better than Pena for a while. It comes with risk—the 3 year deal would cover his age 34, 35, and 36 seasons, during any one of which he’s apt to fall off a cliff—but the potential rewards are greater than any other scenario I see outside of a trade.

Jose Tabata is the truth

The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.

by Raybin on Dec 12, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions

But he fell off a cliff two years ago…and only manged to climb back up the foothills last year. I’d say he’s as likely to become Overbay part II as he is to become Carlos Pena from 3 – 5 years ago.

I just don’t see the Pirates making him their highest paid player for the small increase he gives them over the proposed Jones/Evans platoon.

by Brakeman8 on Dec 12, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions

I don't think there is a lot of "love" for Pena

but rather a belief that if he plays no better than expected, he provides 25 HRs, he will get on base 35% of the time (this is more important than his batting average) and he will put up an OPS north of .800. He will do all of this even if he struggles against LHP. He also has a track record that shows that, while he clearly hits righties better, he is usually not a complete black hole vs southpaws. If he plays above expectations (not especially likely but not completely impossible) he could put up a .240/.360/.540 line with 35 HRs. The Pirates do have to get a surprising Berkman-esque free agent sooner or later don’t they? He is also a decent fielder.

The in-house option, Jones, might be good for 20 HRs if he plays every day. He can’t though because he is totally inept vs LHP (his ‘11 OPS vs LHP and his career OPS vs LHP are both .134 points lower than Pena’s) so he’s more likely to hit 15-18 HRs. Because you can’t completely avoid LHP, his OPS will likely be in the .750+ range. If the Pirates get really lucky, maybe he puts together a year with 25 bombs and an .810 OPS…which is what would essentially be the expectation for Pena. He is a below-average defender.

Would I want to give Pena a 4 year/$40M contract? No, of course not but I wouldn’t hate 2/$20M or 3/$24M because that is the going rate for an above average starting 1B. The Pirates have said they have money to spend and $8M on a starting position player is not going to cripple them financially or make them unable to make other, more important moves (like a McCutchen extension or signing draft picks).

Maybe the jump in production isn’t enormous and maybe it’s not even quite worth every extra penny that you paid for it. However sometimes, getting a better product is worth overspending a bit. Think about it this way: if you were hungry and wanted a burger, you might have two options. You could (1) go to the Sunoco and get one of those smashed, day-old burgers under a heat lamp for 99 cents or (2) you could go to Red Robin and get some big, gourmet burger for $7. Truth be told, both will get the job done and fill you up. Both probably cost less than a dollar to make so the burger at Red Robin is admittedly a little overpriced. But you’ve got 10 bucks in your pocket and going to Red Robin won’t make it so you can’t afford groceries next week like if you, instead, went to the LeMont or something (in this example let’s say Albert Pujols is the LeMont). Sometimes, it’s worth it to spend more for something that you’d actually like to have…it’s lunchtime and now I’m hungry.

by KentuckyPirate on Dec 12, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions

Absolutely, all of this

Pena, despite his flaws, is an everyday first baseman and Jones is half of a platoon. A power hitting 1B with a good glove is going to cost in the 8 million-ish range.

Or to look at it another way….Lyle Overbay cost 5 million. Pena is worth 8.

Jose Tabata is the truth

The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.

by Raybin on Dec 12, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions

You are making my point for me.

Everyone hated Overbay at 5 mill. 8 mill or more for Pena is just crazy. It’s not going to happen.

by Brakeman8 on Dec 12, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions

We agree on one thing

It’s worth it to spend more fro something that you’d actually like to have. I see very few people here (and in MLB) wanting to spend 8 – 10 million as season for two or more years of Carlos Pena.

by Brakeman8 on Dec 12, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions

Since it’s late and I’m doing nothing more exciting than letting the chinchilla hop around

Is that what you kids are calling it these days?

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

Follow @cocktailsfor2

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 11, 2011 8:45 AM EST up reply actions

hhahahahahahaha

For real, though! I’ve got a chinchilla and he needs let out of his cage every day to exercise.

Jose Tabata is the truth

The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.

by Raybin on Dec 11, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Uh-huh...Yeah. Me, too.

“Chinchilla.”

My wife is gonna love this one.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

Follow @cocktailsfor2

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 11, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions

Have you seen...

this?

“Dear diary, chinchilla sure are nocturnal!”

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Dec 11, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

REC

weebl and bob are the bomb, yo.

PIE

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

Follow @cocktailsfor2

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 12, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions

Lo

by BlindSquirrel on Dec 12, 2011 8:00 PM EST up reply actions

By the way, KP, I rec'd this

I like your call for constructive ideas rather than simple bitching, so I thought I’d put my virtual money where my electronic mouth was. Or something.

Jose Tabata is the truth

The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.

by Raybin on Dec 10, 2011 11:16 PM EST reply actions

If I were GM...

1. Mets get: OF Starling Marte, 1B/OF Alex Dickerson, RHP Kyle McPherson
Pirates get: 1B Ike Davis, SS/3B Wilmer Flores

Marte becomes expendable because of potential long term deal for McCutchen and Josh Bell on the potential fast track to Pittsburgh. Mets are rebuilding and Davis is their most attractive chip. They’ve basically given up on Flores as a prospect so he basically becomes a throw in and these are the high risk/high rewards Pittsburgh loves going after.

2. Braves get: OF Robbie Grossman, 3B Will Middlebrooks, OF Brandon Jacobs
Red Sox get: CL Joel Hanrahan, LHP Carlos Perez
Pirates get: RHP Jair Jurrjens, SS Jose Iglesias, OF Alex Hassan

Jurrjens is on the market because of Atlantas over abundance of young pitching. Theyre in need of young OF to compliment Heyward and pick up a possible replacement for Chipper Jones in Middlebrooks who becomes expendable along with Iglesias because of younger better prospects (Bogaerts, Cecchini) already in Bostons system. Hassan seems to be under rated as a prospect and fills the void in the system left by Grossman/Marte.

by FusilliJerry88 on Dec 10, 2011 11:25 PM EST reply actions

A couple of problems with the guys the Bucs are getting in those deals

Flores is a guy that many think can’t play SS anymore and also doesn’t hit enough to play 3B. In addition, Jurrjens has injury problems. I’m not sold on Grossman fully yet, especially with the hand injury. But I will tell you I am a big fan of Davis…I think he’s going to be a solid regular for a long time and while people may think thats somewhat negative, I’d be happy with a 1B who can hit 25 dingers a year for the next 4-5 years, wouldn’t you?

by NastyNate82 on Dec 11, 2011 3:12 AM EST up reply actions

I'd love to get Davis

But this is more than I’d want to give up right now. I totally understand giving up prospects when the time is right but dealing four of our Top-15 prospects plus our best realistic ML trade chip is too much. This is what you give up if you KNOW that you’re ready to compete right now and you just need those last couple of pieces. I wouldn’t want to risk this much when I thought the Pirates might be able to compete with a couple of breaks.

by KentuckyPirate on Dec 11, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions

welp

I think adding Jurrjens and Davis to what we already have would make the Pirates a contender as soon as this year. Plus they’re young enough to still be around when the next wave of prospects arrive. I don’t see any down sides…

by FusilliJerry88 on Dec 11, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions

Stop taking away from our bullpen

why is no one calling to add an 8th inning arm? We aren’t dealing Hammer til at least midseason, let’s add an arm so we can make a real run

by Mr. E on Dec 11, 2011 1:05 AM EST reply actions

Xlent point

8th inning was a nightmare last year and some folks want to extend it to the 8th-9th. We should be adding a better setup man to Hanrahan, not subtracting both. Why do folks think Meek is going to come back strong?

by Central*Scrutinizer on Dec 11, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions

Things I'd rather have than Billy Butler

1) Tino Martinez making a comeback to play 1st base.
2) Crabs.
3) Dave Littlefield running the Pirates again.
4) Super-crabs.

Sorry to be negative, but I HATE Billy Butler. He’s like John Lackey in Anaheim: they knew he was awful, but you could talk yourself into him using numbers. Don’t fall for it. Leave Billy Butler on the scrap heap with Jack Cust and Chris Truby.

by SuperBaes on Dec 11, 2011 2:53 AM EST reply actions

Love the ideas

Love that you’re coming up with reasonable ideas, being creative, and being realistic with player values… but we need to nip this Butler thing in the bud.

by SuperBaes on Dec 11, 2011 2:55 AM EST up reply actions

thats odd

Butler would easily become our best “hitter” in years, yet you would rather have Crabs.

what a predicament

by white angus on Dec 11, 2011 8:06 AM EST up reply actions

Crabs has an excellent OBP

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Dec 11, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

but lacks concentration

by white angus on Dec 12, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions

Just curious

Why do you hate Butler so much? He hits .300 every year, has ok power, doesn’t strike out much, has a solid LD% indicating that he makes good contact, he’d be in Pittsburgh from age 26-29, he’s affordable and he plays a position of need?

I love Hanrahan as much as the next guy. But closers are overvalued in this league right now. Hammer was only worth 2 fWAR last year. First, I don’t think it’s a lock that Hanrahan will match his 2011 production. Not because he isn’t good but because it is really really hard to put up an ERA under 2.00 in the major leagues. Second, even if we could say for sure that Hanrahan was going to put up 2 wins this year, I see no reason to believe that we couldn’t get at least 1 win out of Meek, Resop, Leroux or whoever winds up as our replacement closer. If we can fill our hole at 1B for the next four years and get an interesting SS prospect and it only costs us a maximum of 1 win…I don’t see how we could turn that down.

by KentuckyPirate on Dec 11, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions

Plays

a position of need is pushing it. Butler is definitely more suited to be a DH when it comes to the glove. -4.8 UZR/150 over 2800 innings. It’d be hard to watch and cost Bulter .5 WAR.

New Pirates Blog: Buried Treasure

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 11, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions

Posted on another thread somewhere

Butler makes a buttload of money ($8 million for 2012-2014, $12.5-$14.5 million option for 2015, plus some kind of raise if he’s traded) and is only marginally more useful than me at 1B (Cutch’s post below; played 11 games at 1B last year). Barmes is a fantastic defender, but Alvarez (-1.6 total dWAR the last two seasons) and Walker (-1.5 the last three) would only highlight a subpar defender at 1st. For the money, I’d rather buy Carlos Pena. For the prospects, I’d rather go after one of the Angels’ guys (or Ike Davis, whom I’d love to see).

I also don’t personally overvalue Hammer, but seeing the contracts some of these closers are getting is mind-boggling. I say wait and see if someone loses out on Madson or if Texas sees Nathan in the spring and decides they need more bullpen and maximize Hammer’s value. Barring a disastrous season, he’ll also retain a lot of that value up to the trade deadline.

by SuperBaes on Dec 12, 2011 4:37 AM EST up reply actions

Also

Watching Butler play is painful. He’s built like Mike Fetters and is as slow as Sid Bream. He racks up doubles and maybe he’ll grow that into homerun power, but I’d say he’s more likely to eat his way off the field and the NL has no DH to protect him.

by SuperBaes on Dec 12, 2011 4:41 AM EST up reply actions

coughbullshitcough

sorry, allergies are bad today

by white angus on Dec 12, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions

Hearing more and more that Hanley is on the block

sure’d be nice

Alvarez, Marte, Grossman, and Heredia
for
Hanley and Logan M.

by bmcferren on Dec 11, 2011 2:17 PM EST reply actions

Alvarez and Tabata to the Braves for Heyward

1st and foremost justification is to clear the albatross that is Alvarez once and for all for something worthwhile. I for one, do not want 2012 to be about Alvarez demotions, slumps, weight, adjustments, strikeouts, bad defense, not playing winter ball again. Just give 3B to Walker and fill 2B internally. 2nd, we need a power hitter in the OF. 3rd, this is based on the Braves needing OF and future 3B help? (taking over Chipper’s job…honestly haven’t been following the Braves much).

by Central*Scrutinizer on Dec 11, 2011 3:23 PM EST reply actions

What makes anyone think....

…Alvarez has any legit trade value right now. Anyone picking up Pedro would do it on a buy low deal only.

by Brakeman8 on Dec 12, 2011 11:10 AM EST reply actions

I agree

Hang on to Pedro. If he puts it together, awesome. If not, well, you weren’t going to get anything by trading him anyway

Jose Tabata is the truth

The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.

by Raybin on Dec 12, 2011 11:17 AM EST up reply actions

perfectly said

by white angus on Dec 12, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions

Pirates aren't likely to sign Pena or Jackson.

A more likely possibility would be Luke Scott from the Orioles, who is going to get non-tendered. Probably for about $4M or so…and that takes care of 1B. Pitching-wise, it’s more likely they’d get Maholm at half price than they would Jackson at full price.

by Thunder on Dec 12, 2011 8:08 PM EST reply actions