Aramis Ramirez signs with Brewers
by bucfaninwa on Dec 12, 2011 1:30 PM EST
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http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7345064/source-ex-chicago-cubs-3b-aramis-ramirez-heads-milwaukee-brewers
Damn. Just when I was starting to like the sound of those weasels being emasculated next season, they have to add a legitimate offensive threat.
Someone needs to explain to me how a market the size of Milwaukee can afford to spend on top-tier free agents while the Pirates have to dumpster dive every single year. Is Milwaukee that much bigger than Pittsburgh? Do the Brewers' owners have deeper pockets? I just don't get it.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Few thoughts on this
1. The Brewers drew more than 1,000,000 more fans than the Pirates did in 2011, and with an average ticket price of $22.10, that’s approximately $22MM more in revenue from ticket sales alone.
2. More fans in the ballpark means more concession revenue.
3. The Brewers are successful and the second-most popular professional team in the state of Wisconsin (out of two), while the Pirates have been bad for two decades and are only the third-most popular professional team in western Pennsylvania alone (ignoring the state as a whole, where they are probably sixth at best, ahead of only the 76ers), so merchandise revenue for the Brewers is likely much higher than it is for the Pirates.
4. The Brewers own the parking lots around Miller Park, which gives them a significant revenue stream that the Pirates do not have at PNC Park.
As for market size, you have to realize that the Brewers are the MLB home team for the entire state of Wisconsin (population of approximately 5.7MM per the 2010 census), so while the metropolitan area of Pittsburgh may be bigger than that of Milwaukee, you need to look at the larger picture of what the actual “market” is to see that the Pirates are in a smaller “market” than the Brewers overall.
It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.
totally agree
add in that the pirates dont own PNC Park and they dont get that much from concessions either. Aramark gets a big chunk of that. Then you gotta talk about revenue from jerseys/caps/collectibles; MLB gets a chunk of that too.
I don't disagree with any of your points
But I would argue that the first is sort of a chicken-and-egg argument. Other than a couple of division titles, the Brewers have never won anything. Or at least they hadn’t when they made the commitment to invest in the product.
I’m not one of these delusional yinzers who thinks the Pirates should have signed Pujols, but I have a hard time believing they couldn’t have come up with a million or so more than what the Brewers offered Ramirez. Maybe the fams would start attending games — and generating revenue — now if the Pirates showed an inclination to seriously improve the Major League product rather than simply finding spare parts to fill out a roster.
As for your point about the Brewers dominating the Wisconsin market, I would argue that half of Pennsylvania, plus all of northern West Virginia and a chunk of eastern Ohio, is a comparable to — if not larger than — all of Wisconsin.
three points
- The Brewers got to .500 with a payroll under $40M. It was after they broke their losing streak that their payroll started to go up (and breaking the losing streak was a huge step forward — they’d finished last the previous three years, in the Pirates’ division). They improved the product before they started spending. Attendance and payroll climbed together, but if anything attendance started creeping up first.
- The Brewers are in win-now mode; they blew out their farm system acquiring Greinke and Marcum.
- Wisconsin has well over twice as many people as the Greater Pittsburgh Metropolitan Statistical Area. Throw in Erie, Altoona, State College, Youngstown, and the mighty juggernaut of Northern West Virginia and you’re still not nearly to the number of people in Wisconsin.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Dec 12, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
for f's sake
I actually wanted that to show up as a list, but is the text markup smart enough to know that when you have three listed paragraphs with blank space in between, you don’t want to start the list over with each one? Noooooooooo.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Dec 12, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
Careful, pilgrim
Did I mention I was raised in Morgantown?
Naww
As a kid currently residing in Morgantown and rooming with a kid from Pittsburgh…… naw…
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 12, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
agreed
Morgantown is more West Jersey than South Burgh.
A LOT more.
by BadAndy on Dec 12, 2011 4:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
nothing against Morgantown
I’m just saying that northern West Virginia doesn’t have a lot of people in it, so it doesn’t add that much to your fan base. Kind of like if someone were to point out that the Yankees have more fans in Vermont than you might think — it’s true, but nobody lives here anyway so it doesn’t really increase the fan base much.
One thing I think people don’t appreciate is how thoroughly the Pirates are boxed in by other teams’ markets. WV and central PA are really the only plausible places for the Pirates to expand their reach, and there just ain’t that many people living there.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Dec 12, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
Wisconsin
Is heavily populated in the south, and there is a sizeable Chicago-centric fan base there. South of Milwaukee the Bears and Packers split, and thats partially true for the Cubs and Brewers, especially due to WGN. Comparing the whole state population to the greater Pittsburgh area isn’t accurate.
I firmly believe that the Brewers set a realistic comparable payroll limit for the Pirates.
Yep.
And you have Madison about a 1 hour drive away. So there’s the capital of Wisconsin within reasonable driving distance of Milwaukee.
You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu
by IAPiratesFan on Dec 12, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
I went to more games at Miller
than I did at Wrigley this year.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 12, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
Either Coonelly or Huntington compared Pgh and Mil a couple of years ago.
At the time, he did mention that the Brewers had about $50M more in revenue than the Pirates, and made a specific point to mention that the payroll difference was actually less than the extra money the Brewers had coming in.
He said parking revenue for MIL was $10M while PGH had $0. TV contracts for PGH were $10M more than MIL, however, so that cancels out.
The big difference is the attendance, and in my models where I reverse engineered revenue from attendance, it comes to about $40 per patron, not just $22 when you factor in everything. So that comes out to be $45M more in revenue last year, and it has been like that for quite a few years.
The Brewers payroll in 2011 was $40M more than the Pirates.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 12, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Again, attendance is a function of winning on the field
And while you can’t buy a winner, it wouldn’t hurt to prime the pump — especially at a time when Pirate fans are as dispirited as any fan base in Major League history have been.
agreed
just “being in it” filled 330k more seats in 2011 vs. 2010.
But I also look at this another way:
Pittsburgh has THEIR STEELERS.
Milwaukee has THEIR BREWERS.
A lot can be said for that as well.
by insane_sanity on Dec 12, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Milwaukee also has in division rival Cubs fans able to make the trip for guaranteed extra revenue, and the Pirates don’t have anything like that.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 12, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, I don't know
At least in years that the Cubs are bad, I wouldn’t think that Chicagoans would sell out every MIL-CHC game, whereas the Pirates do very, very well whenever the Phils, Mets, Cubs come to town (weekend series, anyway), plus pretty well for Cinci and Detroit. Nats don’t travel yet. Anyway, point being that PNC Park, plus Pittsburgh’s generally better rep as a destination, mean that I think we probably do about as well from visiting fans as the Brewers do just from their particular Cubs rivalry (although, if the Cubs are ever competing the same year as the Brewers, that’s 7-8 extra sellouts).
I ran the numbers on the Brewers/Cubs matchups at Miller a few years ago.
When the Brewers were bad like the Pirates, the Brewers management marketed heavily to Cubs fans, and the Cubs games actually raised the entire season attendance by over 3K per game during that time.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 13, 2011 1:34 AM EST up reply actions
Milwaukee has
their PACKERS you mean.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 12, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
No Packers
When Green Bay played games in Milwaukee, they lost revenue compared to what they would have made in Green Bay. I believe the point is that the Brewers are the dominant sports franchise in Milwaukee, while the Steelers are the dominant sports franchise in Pittsburgh.
Dunno, when I lived in Milwaukee (‘04-’05) there was a hell of a lot of Packerphrenalia around everywhere.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Dec 12, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Of course, yes.
But, winning on the field happens for teams like the Brewers and the Pirates when their 0-3 year players who are cheap excel and win while still cheap. You can’t really prime the pump too much, because then escalating salaries outpace attendance gains.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 12, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
Who cares?
Guys like Ramirez and Bautista haven’t done a freakin thing since the Bucs dumped them.
Ramirez post-Bucs
Dropped like 30 pounds, took a serious approach to the plate, and started trying in the field. Bucs Ramirez and post-Bucs Ramirez are as different as 16-year-old Baes and old-decrepit-man-that-I’ve-become Baes.
I'm Glad
To see the Brewers give him 3 years at $11-12 mm.
My opinion is that it will be a bad contract, that Aramis in on the downhill side and the fall will precipitous this year.
Except when the Brewers play the Pirates.
You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu
by IAPiratesFan on Dec 12, 2011 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
this year
might work out. After this year – i’d say definitely not. His WAR is sinking like a stone and not even counting that he might get even more fat and would be an injury risk.
Love how they just gave up on Casey McGhahahaheeehahahee so easily. Dude put up same WAR (3.6) in 2010 as A Ram did last year in 11 and is also infinitely younger + cheaper.
This is a bad deal overall and good news for we intelligent Bucco fans
on McGeehee
overall – as former NHL coaching great Michele Therrien used to say “I am not impress”
however, he would be a nice backup plan with upside plus nice RH bat counter for Pedro and our bench if they’re just going to GIVE HIM AWAY (which i doubt they will). he doesn’t walk nearly enough for my personal liking and also seems to be a buffoon. On the positive side, he doesn’t strike out a TON but strikes out a bit. He’s prob somewhere in the middle of his very good 2009-2010 and his awful last year.
dont know how his defensive WAR shot up so much last year after being very negative and also looking very negative to me
Yep
Don’t know about McGehee, but there’s little doubt in my mind that this contract will hurt by the end. Wouldn’t shock me to see him squeeze out 6+ WAR for ~$33M, but if he does, it’ll be 3, 2, 1, with a big, fat overpay in 2014.
It doesn’t seem like the Brewers are concerned with the long-term right now, and rightfully so. They traded the farm for Greinke and Marcum last offseason and are making a similarly short-sighted move here. It’s not a great long-term strategy, but right now is definitely their window, so going for it makes some sense.
I also don’t think ARam’s going to age too poorly. He’s not one of those sluggers who strikes out 1/4 of the time. He’s going to have offensive value for the next three years. He might be a bit overpaid by the end of this deal, but it won’t be too bad. (And the negative value in the end is more than canceled out by the positive value now – $12M for a 3-win player is quite a deal.)
with Fat Prince leaving Milwaukee
And Douche suspended for 1/3 of the season their swag is gone.
Signing a saggin A-RAM will not bring it back.
by BadAndy on Dec 12, 2011 4:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Not sure how interested
A-Ram would have been in coming back hear unless the Pirates offered significantly more money than the Brewers. His career is winding down and the Brewers are still (despite the loss of Fielder) contenders. By the time the Pirates are legitimately able to compete he will be ready to retire. Don’t get me wrong. I would have loved to seen him back in a Pirates uni. I still get pissed when I think about presenting him as a gift to the Cubs.
"Don Mossi was the complete five-tool ugly player. He could run ugly, hit ugly, throw ugly, field ugly and ugly for power.
I skimmed all of the above, and is it just me or...
Did nobody offer a reasonable explanation for why the Pirates did not go after Ramirez or some similar player. Regardless of what one expects for Aram in the future, $12m a year for 3 years seems reasonable. If you are not going to play in that world you probably shouldn’t own/run a MLB team.
I would fully understand if Aram refused to come to Pittsburgh or would only do so for a lot more money, but I’m more and more frustrated that we are not being linked to similar players.
I don’t actively dislike what the moves that have been made so far, but I think I expected more. There is still time, but I’m pessimistic.
Good day.
Ramirez
He’s only played 3B in his career as a MLB’er; his only non-3B professional game was one time in the minors in 1998 when he went to SS (did not make a play on a ball). Pittsburgh wants Alvarez to succeed at 3B, but wants a cheap backup plan in case that doesn’t work. $4 million/year isn’t superstar money, but it’s what they’re paying their starters (more than most). He’s also going to be 34 next season and a decline in skills seems certain.
Conversely, McGehee has seen some action at C, 1B, 2B, 3B, and OF during his professional career. This versatility will allow him to move around the diamond if Alvarez succeeds or fill in for him if he fails. He’s also cheaper (estimated $3.1 million in arbitration this year, two more years of arbitration after) and younger (he just turned 29). A-Ram was much better last year, but it seems more likely that McGehee will be better going forward.
I’m with you: I want to see a big name. I’ve been railing (and being made fun of) for Jose Reyes all offseason (basically arguing that I’d rather have Reyes for $20 million than a stack of Clint Barmes/Rod Barajas/etc.) I want to see a successful Pirates team as much as anybody. This is NH’s way, though; and the proven model for how a small market can build a winning team… and if nothing else, it’s much better than it’s been for a long, long time.
$12m/year for Ramirez
If he’d been available for $4m/year, I’d have wanted NH to sign him and figure out what to do with all his players later.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Dec 13, 2011 7:15 AM EST up reply actions
IIRC,
Pittsburgh was one of the teams in the no-trade clause of his contract.
I suspect he had no interest whatsoever in playing for the Pirates again.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 13, 2011 7:30 AM EST up reply actions
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