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The Pirates' Major-League Payroll: Not Worth Parsing

Question of the day: Why is there so much focus on the Pirates' payroll? That is, why are fans so concerned about the exact number of dollars the Pirates will spend on major-league players in any given year?

Here are the Opening-Day payrolls for the past seven seasons, courtesy of Cot's Contracts.

2011: $ 42,047,000

2010: $ 39,068,000

2009: $ 48,693,000

2008: $ 48,689,783

2007: $ 38,537,823

2006: $ 46,717,750

2005: $ 38,133,000

I'd argue that there's only one meaningful trend to be found here, and it's this: the Pirates tend to have Opening Day payrolls around $40-45 million. Those are low numbers that have tended to correspond pretty well to the amount of talent the Pirates have had available to them.

Since the Aramis Ramirez debacle in 2003, there hasn't been a whole lot of salary-dumping in the pejorative way that fans often mean when they use the term "salary-dumping." The Bucs really never do that anymore because ... well, they just don't have very many good players who ought to be kept. They don't have enough good players, period, and by the time the few good ones get expensive, it usually makes good baseball sense for the Pirates to deal them for youngsters.

Now, true, there have been players the Pirates have dropped so that the Pirates didn't have to pay their salaries anymore, because the Bucs didn't believe those players were worth their salaries. If you want to call that "salary-dumping," that's fine. But if that's what the Pirates are doing, I don't have a problem with it, at least not in theory.

If you ask a certain type of Pirates fan to name a recent example of the Pirates dumping salary, their best possible response is probably Jose Bautista. Now, in hindsight, letting Bautista go was a mistake. And even at the time, it didn't look like the Pirates were getting much in return for him. But I think the key here was that the Pirates thought they were giving up Bautista because he wasn't worth his salary, and because they had a young third baseman they liked better in Andy LaRoche. (Terrible call in hindsight, I know, but that thought process at least sort of made sense back then.) It wasn't as if salary needed to be cleared off the books. If the Pirates genuinely didn't think Jose Bautista was worth his salary, then the trade wasn't a salary dump any more than the recent non-tender of Ross Ohlendorf was a salary dump. I haven't heard anyone complaining that the Pirates are cheap because they didn't offer Ross Ohlendorf a contract. Ohlendorf's likely salary exceeded his likely on-field value to the team, so the Pirates dropped him. I don't think anyone really has a problem with that.

The recent losses of Paul Maholm and Ronny Cedeno might be another example. I didn't agree with either of those decisions at the time, but I think the Pirates' decision to dump those players had to do with the team thinking those players weren't worth the prices of their 2012 options, or maybe that they could get better prices for players of similar or greater value in the free agent market. They could pretty reasonably argue they've been proven right on that last point, since they were able to get Erik Bedard and Clint Barmes for about what they would have paid Maholm and Cedeno.

The Opening Day payrolls did drop between 2009 and 2010, due to the trades of Jack Wilson, Ian Snell, Freddy Sanchez and so on during the 2009 season. But these were (again, whatever you might think of them) primarily baseball trades, in which the Pirates shipped out older players in favor of younger ones in order to increase their chances of contending in the future. As WTM likes to say, the fact that most of the players the Bucs traded in 2008 and 2009 quickly ceased to be useful suggests that the Pirates were right to trade them at that time. It's certainly fair to argue about whether they got enough for them, but the point here is that the Bucs weren't trading these players purely to dump payroll.

This is all fairly knotty, semantic-y stuff. But my point here is that the relationship between the Pirates' payroll and the Pirates' baseball goals has not changed in almost a decade. I'm not saying this to defend the Bucs (the existing pattern is plenty depressing on its own), just pointing out that all the tooth-gnashing over payroll that we as fans do simply isn't worth it. The key issue isn't really the payroll. It's the amount of talent the Pirates have.

Here's what happens in almost every season: the Pirates have a certain number of league-minimum players, and a certain number of guys they think are worth taking to arbitration. They pay those guys. Then, they bring in a bunch of veterans (of varying quality, but mostly mediocre or outright bad) via free agency or trade, and they get the Opening Day payroll to something like $40 million or maybe $50 million. Then the trade deadline comes, and they make a baseball decision to either trade for veterans in order to compete (2011) or trade older players in order to maximize their future value (every other year). The only year since 2005 or so that doesn't really fit this pattern is in 2007, when Dave Littlefield really went bonkers and traded for Matt Morris. Then they do it again.

I mention all this because, at this time of year and others, there's a strong temptation to parse some quote from Frank Coonelly or Bob Nutting to try to figure out whether the Pirates will spend more this year than last. But there hasn't been a meaningful change in the Pirates' payroll for a very long time. Until there is - until there's a case of the Pirates getting a minimal trade return back for an expensive player with significant trade value, say, or a case of the Pirates taking on a significant contract that puts them in a different payroll bracket - there isn't much there to parse.

I've been guilty of plenty of parsing myself, particularly in weeks when there wasn't much going on. But the fact is that the Pirates' major-league payrolls have been very stable since 2004. (Their spending in the draft has risen considerably, and they've rightly received plenty of praise for that, but that's a different issue.) The major-league payroll might go up or down $5 million or $10 million here and there, but that doesn't make much difference. The Pirates aren't the Marlins. Until there's a radical swing in the payroll, worrying too much about a number is a waste of time. And a radical swing is unlikely until the Bucs pull themselves together well enough to establish a playoff-caliber core of young players. Until then, it'll probably be really low. If you want to criticize for that, go for it. It's safe. You don't even have to pay attention, because it's probably going to stay that way for a while.

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Gosh

Matt Morris. I was at his first start. He hit a HR if I recall correctly, but we still lost. I knew nothing about baseball at the time so I was pumped cause this dude looked awesome, mainly because he hit a homerun.

I was, and still am, so naive.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 30, 2011 10:25 PM EST reply actions  

The number doesn't seem as important to me

As the rank in the league. Even then, it’s hindsight criticism. If the Pirates were winning (which they certainly could if we were to cherry pick players position-by-position who all have very team-friendly or rookie contracts), then we’d say “Wow, they’re winning with 1/5 the payroll of the Yankees!!!” Since they’re losing, it’s “They don’t spend any money!!”

It seems like teams get/stay good in one of three ways:

Draft, develop, keep the most important pieces, keep constantly reloading: This is the varying degrees of success of teams like Tampa, Oakland, Minnesota, and even Atlanta (fundamentally). It’s the hardest to keep up because one or two mistakes put you back at the bottom.

Find a guy and build your team around him: Detroit, Texas, St. Louis. You find one superstar, pay him accordingly, then put pieces around him (including other budding stars). Detroit basically acquired Miggy Cabrera when Florida decided they weren’t going to pay him long-term and they’ve essentially built their lineup around him and found some pitching gems (Verlander is a one-in-a-million shot; but they really seem to have found something with Fister, succeeded in their Kenny Rogers and Jeremy Bonderman gambles, and have gotten some dividends from overslot guys like Porcello and risk guys like Edwin Jackson. Sometimes these teams get high up in payroll, but they usually even out. They compete seriously every few years and are always a threat “if everything breaks the right way,” but aren’t always in the mix.

Buy the best of the best: Yankees, Red Sox, Anaheim. Huge markets buying up huge FA’s. Impossible in Pittsburgh.

I think the bigger issue that the Pirates have is that they haven’t developed an A-list superstar in the past 20 years. Poor management is probably to blame, but some of it is just dumb luck. McCutchen may be that guy, but, as Charlie mentioned, not too many Pirates (besides Ramirez) have left and found a ton of success elsewhere. They could luck into one from another poor franchise looking to unload their best guy (like Detroit did with Cabrera), but that’s a right place/right time as well as a luck thing (Detroit would look terrible if Cabrera were more like Carlos Lee and Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin were perennial all-stars for Florida).

Sorry for the long response, but I think that fans complaining about payroll is the same as any situation (work, domestic) where the money is made to be so central: there’s usually a bigger issue that you’re getting distracted from.

by SuperBaes on Dec 30, 2011 10:31 PM EST reply actions  

Jose Bautista

I agree with you 100%: trading Bautista was a baseball decision that didn’t work out. You can fault the FO for not recognizing Joey Bats’ potential, but that wasn’t a cheapskate move.

by SuperBaes on Dec 30, 2011 10:33 PM EST reply actions  

Bautista

At the time Bautista was dumped I viewed it more as a premature giving up on the player due to lazy thinking (we’ve got A. LaRoche now so there is no room for Bautista) and perhaps bad chemistry between player and management. I did not think finances were significant in the decision.

To be sure, Bautista has easily doubled even wild-dream expectations and I never saw this coming. But at the time I believe my thoughts were along the lines of this seems odd because a super utility player could be valuable on a building team but who cares because it is inconsequential.

Not sure why anybody would care, but there you go.

Good day.

by UncleNate on Dec 31, 2011 7:49 AM EST up reply actions  

chemistry issues

might also have cost them gorzo… although they did get what seemed like a non-terrible return at the time.

by BurgherKing on Dec 31, 2011 8:57 AM EST up reply actions  

of course finances were the main reason

thats why Maholm, Duke, Bay, Sanchez, etc. were all dealt/let go in the first place.

why pay non elite players so much money when you could possibly find young controllable talent to play just as well for much less dough?

by white angus on Dec 31, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Prematurely giving up on a player? When a guy is in his fourth season with you, with more than 1500 plate appearances, while providing a total of -0.4 WAR, I don’t think it’s premature at all to get rid of him.

by thecheeseisblue on Dec 31, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a vicious circle.

At the major league level… from the ownership side…talent doesn’t come in…money doesn’t go out. From the player’s side…Money doesn’t go out…talent doesn’t come in.

To put it easier…management won’t pay until the team gets better…but the team won’t get better until management pays. We are a minimum of 3 years away from having more than one young pitcher make the majors. Anyone seriously think that any of our current starting pitchers will be here at that point? At that point…Cutch will either have a long term extension, or he’ll be long gone. Offensively, the only help coming in those 3 years is likely to be Marte and possibly Grossman, but likely not both, as one will likely get traded.

by Thunder on Dec 30, 2011 10:47 PM EST reply actions  

but the team won’t get better until management pays

This is the false assumption that Dejan keeps peddling. The pattern with successful lower revenue teams has been very consistent: The team gets better first with a low payroll, then spends more, not the other way around. But the myth that you can’t win without spending a lot of money first just won’t die, despite being contradicted by all the evidence.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Dec 30, 2011 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly correct

milwaukee and minnesota being perfect examples of this

by white angus on Dec 31, 2011 6:50 AM EST up reply actions  

cincinnati didnt have a huge jump in payroll, but yes you are correct

but the Rays are still winning yet cut their payroll by nearly in half for this coming season, which is why i didnt include them

by white angus on Dec 31, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

The only issue I have with their whole theory of not signing or retaining a player unless the market dictates he is worth that much. . .

is that it is much sounder in the 2 following scenarios: 1. The team is at their spending limit so they need to maximize each dollar or 2. the term of the contract i longer than one year. However, when you make your team worse simply because a player who will make your team better (and who you could afford without skimping elsewhere and who your were only obligated to pay one year) requires more money than the market suggests he is worth, it is stupid in my opinion to not sign that player. Let’s say Maholm was the Pirates best opiton (this is a hypo). Let’s also say thne Bucs had budgeted 55 million for payroll this year. Now, if the Bucs refused his 9 million dollar, one year option because they thought he was only worth 5 million on the market and they nend up with a 50 million dollar payroll, they just hurt themselves because of a market set by the needs of other teams.

I guess what I’m saying is this market value stuff only works if we assume a player of equal value of the one discarded is available at the price the Pirates determined the discarded player was worth, or one of the two scenarios I outlined above exist.

Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you

by Scranton on Dec 30, 2011 11:54 PM EST reply actions  

This is the problem I have, not the overall payroll. When the Pirates decide Maholm isn’t worth $9M or whatever it was, it’s not like they go out and get a guy who really is worth $9M. Instead they add a couple $4M guys who don’t bring the team appreciably closer to being good. Instead they’re just guys to mark time with. The bottom line is that they don’t add Erik Bedard to a staff that still includes Maholm. Instead they add him to a staff that still includes Correia, whom a competitive team would have been looking to replace. Now, instead of a truly upgraded staff, they have a staff that will be about the same unless Bedard miraculously pitches a whole season. If every player has to be worth what you’re paying him, you can never fit it all together in a way that adds up to a good team.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Dec 31, 2011 12:22 AM EST up reply actions  

""The key issue isn't really the payroll. It's the amount of talent the Pirates have.""

I just can’t help but feel that those two sentences are directly proportional. Or, put another way, You Get What You Pay For.

Maybe it’s me. Maybe I’M the naive one.

Still I look a little deeper, and I see….

2011: $ 42,047,000 72-90

2010: $ 39,068,000 57-105

2009: $ 48,693,000 62-99

2008: $ 48,689,783 67-95

2007: $ 38,537,823 68-94

2006: $ 46,717,750 67-95

2005: $ 38,133,000 67-95

Now, if you don’t think the column on the left has anything to do with the column on the right, then maybe YOU’RE the naive one.

by Midnight Moose on Dec 31, 2011 1:49 AM EST reply actions  

I could just as easily list the Mets’ and Mariners’ payrolls and their records in recent years to show that high payrolls produce losing, or the Rays’ to show that low payrolls produce winning. Looks to me like the real correlation is between identifying talent and winning or losing.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Dec 31, 2011 2:09 AM EST up reply actions  

The Rays are an outlier.

They are what we all wish the Pirates were. What we all hope the Pirates will be, somday. They’re able to accumulate beaucoup draft picks, pick wisely (for the most part), then combine those draft picks with smart trades, and the occasional FA pick-up. And win.

Of course, though, i consider Andrew Friedman to be a genius. Neal Huntington – not so much.

And a big part of the Mariners and Mets problems is giving too many expensive, long-term contracts, to too many pitchers. That’s rarely a good idea, for any team.

by Midnight Moose on Dec 31, 2011 4:13 AM EST up reply actions  

many of the Rays first winning team players were aquired before Friedman even got there

friedman is doing a great job, dont get me wrong. but labeling him a genius is like calling Donald Trump a self made man, which he absolutely is not

by white angus on Dec 31, 2011 6:54 AM EST up reply actions  

The Pirates are also an outlier

In fact, they’re the biggest outlier in the history of sports.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Dec 31, 2011 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know about that...

The Athletics (1934-1967) were pretty pitiful with 4 winning records in about 34 years (and 3 of those were in a row).

by Thunder on Dec 31, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

if you're willing to consider interrupted streaks

then the prize has to go to the Phillies (1918-1948) who had one winning season in 31 years, and that year they were only 78-76.

For that matter the Royals’ current futility is almost as bad as the Pirates’, though not consecutive; they’ve only had one winning season since the strike.

This doesn’t mean the Pirates could get a lot better by blowing up their payroll. That’s how they wound up being forced to sell off Aramis Ramirez.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Dec 31, 2011 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

And the Pirates front office hasn’t shown clearly that they can identify talent.

by Thunder on Dec 31, 2011 8:19 AM EST up reply actions  

If that’s the case, spending more won’t help, will it?

by maguro on Dec 31, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

This, and not payroll, is and always has been the real problem.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Dec 31, 2011 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

So in other words, you’re saying that this correlation implies some kind of causation.

by thecheeseisblue on Dec 31, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Well put

Look, I’m not trying to say the the Pirates chronically low payroll is the sole cause for the continued losing. Of course, there are myriad other factors involved. All I’m saying is the annual low payroll is part of the problem. It certainly isn’t part of the solution.

by Midnight Moose on Dec 31, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

My beef isn't with the payroll so much

I don’t see a coherent plan here that makes the team better. The thing about payroll is it needs to increase this year. Yes we over performed last season, but we built momentum with the fan base and attendance. Also factor in the increased ticket prices. If the team takes a back step as it certainly will do and that momentum is gone. Now you have to start again. Imagine how much better it would have been if things were moving forward when the stud prospects started showing up instead of moving backward. They started as a scrappy team with decent pitching that couldn’t produce runs. Every move this offseason has made an anemic offense worse, and downgraded the rotation…probably the bullpen as well. They had enough money to pick a few options and also add some helpful players without breaking the bank. Thats why people pay attention to the number because it never adds up.

by no1hedberg on Dec 31, 2011 3:17 AM EST reply actions  

you dont see a coherant plan?

building from within was the plan since day one of NH’s term and he has STUCK TO IT.
the only prospect, sorta, that he has dealt is Brooks Pounders. He has said from the beginning that he wanted to flood the system with more and more talent which he has absolutely done.
the problem is that there are still holes in the MLB lineup and no one in the minor leagues to snatch the position.

IMO, i wish NH wouldnt value his prospects so highly, but then again a few of them could have nice breakouts this upcoming season.

by white angus on Dec 31, 2011 6:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Think about that for a second, Angus.

NH has had 4+ years to “flood the system with talent”, and yet, there is “no one in the minor leagues to snatch the position”.

If there is no one in the minors to snatch the position, Neal hasn’t done a very good job of flooding the system with talent.

by Thunder on Dec 31, 2011 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Flooding the system

means starting with Rookie ball. And A. And A+ .

Takes time to move up the ranks, Thunder, old chap.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 31, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

And in 4+ years…there should be quite a bit more talent in AA and AAA than there actually is.

by Thunder on Dec 31, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t know about “quite a bit,” but I think there should be more.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Dec 31, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

How many guys

can you draft and trade for in that time?

Yes, there should be more – but do you think that the FO is not doing the best they can?

I find myself being an apologist – and so I’m just not going to bother any more, I think.

I hope you have a lovely New Year’s Eve, Thunder.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 31, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

The best they can, doesn’t seem to be as good as a lot of other teams have drafted and traded in the last 4 years. When the bar is set as low as the Littlefield gang did, improvement is inevitable. Success, is a different story.

You don’t need to apologize for the front office, Tails. A most prosperous New Year to you.

by Thunder on Dec 31, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

i thunk about it for 3 seconds, and youre absolutely wrong

just like cocktails said below, it starts off in A ball or even lower. the average major leaguer spends about 5 seasons in the minors before he “sticks” in the majors, and the average age for the callup is 24 years old…

if you look at the roster, most pirate “prospects” are not 24 years of age

its nearly impossible for a team to have starters at every position that was brought up through their own system. you cant judge NH for this. it happens for every team.
flooding the system means talent at every level. thats all. if we need a SS, we should be able to trade for one if we have a glut somewhere else.

NH’s biggest issue is possibly holding onto the prospects too long. we’ll find out just how this works out this season… season #5

and by the way, season #4 was the best season we’ve had in 7 years. if the pirates regress this year and fail to win less than 73 games, then you have a right to say NH’s plan isnt working. so far it IS working and the improvement of last season shows this.

by white angus on Dec 31, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

You're right...

we can’t have starters at every position that come entirely through the Pirates system. We have…two…Cutch and Walker. Three if you assume Pedro is going to start at 3B. And zero starting pitchers…unless Lincoln makes the rotation.

Actually…EVERY pitcher that is considered even a slight chance of making the Pirates above West Virginia has already celebrated their 24th birthday except one…Alderson. Unless you are expecting Beckman, Black or Cumpton at Bradenton to make the team at some point. Every player on the Indy roster at the end of the season has already turned 24. There are only a few players on the Altoona roster that are younger than 24 other than Alderson, and most of those turn 24 this season (Marte, Sanchez, Curry, Lambo and Holt). And all of those guys are more than a year away with the possible exception of Marte.

by Thunder on Dec 31, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

and almost everyone of those pitchers you mention were here before NH took over

owens, mcpherson, lincoln… morris and wilson are now bullpen guys. the 2008 draft produced more position players than pitchers in the early rounds, except for schnepper who didnt sign, wilson and colla.

only 31 of those 50 signed, and i believe half of them are even in the organization any longer. and they are not failed signings either; most were filler.

by white angus on Jan 2, 2012 7:57 AM EST up reply actions  

our top pitching talent, aquired by NH, are also the most talented arms this franchise has assembled in the last 3 decades

expecting a few of them, or in your case MOST of them to be in the majors sounds like more NH hate piled on to me.

your arguments against NH for assembling talent on the major league roster is justified, but the ones against his production in the minors is way off base

by white angus on Jan 2, 2012 8:00 AM EST up reply actions  

So you are OK...

with after 4 years of drafting, there are basically no starting pitching prospects above West Virginia?

I don’t expect a bunch of them in the majors at this point…but I DO expect there to be some above low A ball.

by Thunder on Jan 2, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

look at the 2008 draft, Thunder

most were position players, and most of them have knocked on the door in Pittsburgh

by white angus on Jan 2, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Most?? Really??

There are 6 Huntington draftees in 2008 that have had any significant time at AA or above.

1) Alvarez
2) Mercer
3) d’Arnaud
4) Wilson
5) Farrell
6) Hague

I’ll even give you Curry, who didn’t sign until 2009. Curry and Farrell aren’t anywhere near knocking on the door, and there doesn’t seem to be any real interest in Mercer or Hague making the 25 man roster any time soon. Alvarez and d’Arnaud may start 2012 in AAA (if Pedro hasn’t learned how to hit breaking stuff). Wilson got changed from starter to reliever.

Common thread…ALL of those players were drafted out of college. Everybody else…is either unsigned, out of the system or at A ball or below…after at least 3 full seasons of experience.

There are ZERO players that the Pirates have drafted out of high school in the Neal Huntington era that are above A ball.

by Thunder on Jan 2, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

I looked at the Cardinals’ 2008 draft (just picked them randomly, as a team in our division that’s supposed to have an excellent farm system). Exactly one of their high-school draftees has seen time above AA, fourth-rounder Niko Vasquez, and his numbers there are terrible. I’d much rather have d’Arnaud or Wilson.

The Cards have more 2008 draftees above A-ball because they drafted more college players, especially after the first dozen rounds.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 2, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

whoops, Vasquez was a third-rounder

Fourth draft pick, but the Cardinals had a sandwich pick (Lance Lynn, who looks to be the only guy from the draft who will help their team other than by being traded). This doesn’t change my point.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 2, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally not my point.

Every apologist including me swerves a discussion about the MLB team to the recent build up of the system. The discussion here has to do with the MLB payroll, and nothing to do with the system. By no coherant plan I mean for the MLB team. Every off season move with the possible exception of not picking up Cedeno’s option has made this team worse. Year after year we are told there will be a moderate increase in payroll that never really comes. If they had retained some of their better options and built on it with modest free agents, as long as they don’t block a promising prospect, there would be much less complaint about payroll. Especially this year when some progress was made, and fans did their part in the form of increasing attendance. When you have momentum you have to build on it. Instead we are scrounging through the bargain bin. Lets face it there is no way this team isn’t worse this year than last. There is no wonder they aren’t making progress signing an extension with McCutchen. In that way they are sacrificing the future with inaction today.

by no1hedberg on Dec 31, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

My views on the Pirates tend to be pessimistic...

But even my pessimistic projections have the Pirates scoring 45 more runs in 2012, than in 2011. Which should equate to 4 more wins, providing the pitching stays the same in 2012, than it was in 2011.

And considering that the Pirates pitching staff finished 11th in the NL in ERA in 2011, that’s not asking for much.

The Pirates finished with 72 wins in 2011. So, assuming no further adds to the team from it’s present state, the Pirates should win 76 in 2012.

And that’s the root cause of my present frustration. Plus, my interest in team payroll. IMO, the addtion of another solid starting pitcher (Oswalt, Jackson, Saunders, even Maholm redux) might just be enough to kick the 2012 win total into the low 80’s.

And, depending on how healthy the Cards stay in 2012, a win total in the low 80’s might make 2012 a fun summer. It might not win the NLCD, but it would keep the Pirates in the race for more than 100 games.

by Midnight Moose on Dec 31, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

"Instead we are scrounging through the bargain bin. "

Please advise us as to whom you, as GM, would have signed.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 31, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I will get buried for what I'm about to say but you asked.

I would advocate keeping Maholm and Doumit. Maholm is a dependable work horse in the rotation and picking up his option should have been given serious consideration, however I know that was never considered. Adding Bedard would have been a good gamble had you been adding him, but you are essentially swapping Maholm for Bedard to get a discount.. So in review we loose Ohlendorf and Maholm, and pick up Bedard. Common sense tells you that Bedard, and Correia won’t last so that leaves Morton, McDonald, Lincoln, and maybe Karstens. We all know how shaky Morton and Lincoln are. Karstens has never pitched an extended length of time as a starter, and McDonald is a 4th guy at best. Trading Veras was ok since Maghee could be insurance for Alvarez although you already have that in Josh Harrison, and your relying heavily on Meek who’s shoulder injury last year is probably serious. Cedeno/Barmes is a wash. Barmes is better defensively and terrible offensively. Nate McClouth was an absolute waste of money. Picking up Doumit’s option should have been considered too, but never was. The only reason it wasn’t is because the option was for 2 years, but honestly who is he blocking? He is a 2-3 position player who switch hits with good power, which we sorely lack. Besides the catching situation is a total joke now. McHenry can catch defensively, but is totally incompetent at bat. I could go on, but I’d say that’s enough ammo for you guys to thoroughly rip my @ss.

by no1hedberg on Jan 1, 2012 1:39 AM EST up reply actions  

So, you would have kept laet year's team intact...

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 1, 2012 8:51 AM EST up reply actions  

No again not what I said.

I would have kept some of the players that were discarded for financial reasons instead of wasting it on Barajas an McClouth. I also gave reasons why I would keep them. Including the fact that Doumit was one of the younger FA catching options. You can’t start from scratch every year.

by no1hedberg on Jan 1, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Not what you said...?
I would advocate keeping Maholm and Doumit.

What I asked:

Please advise us as to whom you, as GM, would have signed.

You did not say who you would have signed, just commented on the moves that were made.

Please note – I am not trying to “thoroughly rip my [your] @ss.” I am asking who you would sign as GM.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 1, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Yu Darvish...

Pujols, Prince (teach him 3B and DH him when available), Jose Reyes, Beltran, Ramon Hernandez, C.J. Wilson, Buehrle, re-sign Maholm, Papelbon, Madson.

Lineup:
Reyes
Cutch
Pujols
Fielder
Beltran
Walker
Tabata/Presley
Hernandez

Rotation:
Darvish
Wilson
Buehrle
Bedard
Maholm/Morton/Karstens

With Hammer and Madson setting up Papelbon. This team could TOTALLY win the NL Central!!!! And who cares… it’s not our money!!!

by SuperBaes on Jan 1, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Maholm

But I’ve been reading a lot about how “versatile” Doumit is in the field. His catching skills are pretty much mediocre, and watching him play anywhere else is painful.

I think that Maholm’s option was a bit pricey, but not horrible if he ended up pitching even as well as last year. Now that he’s going to cost less, I say go after him. He’s likely to sop up 200 innings at slightly above replacement level; that’s not worth $7 million (or less) to a team rebuilding a bullpen?

I agree that McLouth was a waste of money. There’s a chance that he comes alive and “rekindles that magic;” but I think he’s most likely a Jeff Clement all-star.

I couldn’t disagree more about the Veras-McGahee swap. As best shown by Rafael Soriano, Brandon Lyon, and the long list of other non-elite-closer relievers signed to big deals: the bullpen is a fickle thing and the guys who live there are inconsistent. Veras may have a lights-out Jonny Venters season… but could just as easily be Evan Meek 2011. McGahee was awful last year, but all signs point to that as an outlier. Even if it’s a trend, Pittsburgh acquired a lottery ticket bat for a completely unreliable commodity. I think that’s some of NH’s finest work.

by SuperBaes on Jan 1, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually I don't know who I'd sign.

I don’t think the market will be set unti high profile guys like Fielder are settled. Especially since we better be in the market for a first baseman. After that the picture should clear somewhat. I just feel that if you are going to let these guys walk you should be planning to improve at those positions. I agree with you guys. Doumit is a mediocre catcher, but compared to Barajas he’s practically an all star. I guess that’s my issue. The moves that have been done aren’t improvements. They aren’t even comparable replacements. The rotation is weaker. The offense is much weaker. This could change depending on the remaining moves, but we all know too well that’s very unlikely.

by no1hedberg on Jan 1, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Not clear

We won’t know until April whether or not the rotation will be weaker. I think we know what Correija is, but if Morton’s transformation into mini-Halladay continues to improve, Bedard could stay healthy, and the team could re-sign Maholm… that might be a drastic improvement over 2011 (especially if there are significant contributions from Karstens or if a guy like McPherson goes nuts and forces his way into the MLB rotation). Doumit had some nice blips with his bat, but I think Barajas is slightly better overall because of his defensive non-liability (0.3 dWAR in 98 games vs. Doumit’s -0.3 dWAR in 77 games last year).

I’m not sure how much weaker the offense is. Ronny Cedeno wasn’t good in an above-average year for him (although his worst since coming to Pittsburgh); they replaced him with an equally underwhelming bat. Barajas is mediocre, but I mentioned his defense, and he’s not replacing Doumit; he’s replacing Mike McKenry’s limp bat. I love Fort, but he couldn’t hit to save his life last year. D-Lee could come back, Pena could sign; pretty much anything would improve on Lyle Overbay at 1B. A full year of Presley (if he can keep hitting) is an improvement over Jones; same with healthy Tabata vs. injury-riddled Tabata.

I don’t think the FO has any major moves left, but the few little moves I mentioned could be big improvements. I’m optimistic for this season; it’ll be telling whether or not the Pirates are actually improving or last year’s “improvement” was just random.

by SuperBaes on Jan 1, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with you mostly

Except our expectations for the players we’ve acquired which is to be expected. Any moves made from here on out drastically change this whole discussion. That being said I’m fairly sure no attempt will be made to bring back maholm, or any other pitcher that would make more than 1 mil. You might see a marginal first baseman at most. Even D Lee is a pipe dream at this point. I see value in Doumit’s bat particularly if McHenry can handle a lot of the catching, however I understand why you don’t. I don’t love Doumit but given the options out there it should have at least been considered. BTW I hope your projections are right and I’m totally wrong.

by no1hedberg on Jan 1, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

.

The recent losses of Paul Maholm and Ronny Cedeno might be another example. I didn’t agree with either of those decisions at the time, but I think the Pirates’ decision to dump those players had to do with the team thinking those players weren’t worth the prices of their 2012 options, or maybe that they could get better prices for players of similar or greater value in the free agent market. They could pretty reasonably argue they’ve been proven right on that last point, since they were able to get Erik Bedard and Clint Barmes for about what they would have paid Maholm and Cedeno.

You see, this is what I and CShint were saying before Maholm/Cedeno/Doumit were dropped, but the team was actually “punting”… hopefully now everyone can at least understand why the FO did what they did.

you dont have to agree with it, but you can see why they did.

by white angus on Dec 31, 2011 7:06 AM EST reply actions  

I’ve always known why they did it, but to me that just made things worse because the reasoning doesn’t lead the team to getting better. If you analyze it as Maholm-for-Bedard, it’s a slight upgrade, but only slight given that Bedard will probably pitch somewhere around half a season. But it didn’t have to be Maholm-for-Bedard. Bedard should be replacing Correia. That would be a real upgrade. They supposedly remain interested in Derrek Lee, which means they’re ready to spend another $10M or so. There’s little realistic chance of that happening. For that money they could have kept Maholm and had a clear upgrade to the rotation.

Their view that every single contract has to fit some theoretical estimate of the player’s value effectively limits them to marginal upgrades, since players who’d be real upgrades are rarely available within this FO’s “internal value.” A 90-loss team needs more than marginal upgrades.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Dec 31, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Bedard replacing Correia would be a bigger upgrade

And it may still happen if the Pirates sign another FA starter to replace Maholm and move Correia (to the bullpen or another team),

But with Maholm and Bedard (plus paying the bulk of Correia’s salary) you’re on the hook for $17.75 million with pretty limited upside potential. Doesn’t sound like a plan to make the playoffs to me.

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Dec 31, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

None of what they’ve done this off-season has anything to do with making the playoffs. Do you think Barmes, Barajas or Bedard will ever be on a Pirate playoff team? These are short-term band-aids, not long-term moves. Upside potential isn’t the point. And Maholm would be off the books after another year, or less if he pitched well enough to be dealt in July.

The point of all these moves is nothing more than just trying to be a little better in 2012, and they’d have gotten more improvement with Maholm.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Dec 31, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

me know charlie

Pirate lose lot charlie. that why me want know payroll. they lose and lose and lose. don’t look like tehy try to get better for next year. they lose in 2012 . maybe win 2013 or 2014.

by Quahog on Dec 31, 2011 10:34 AM EST reply actions  

Good Analysis

Your comments are spot on. As much as I get tired of all of Bob Smizik’s attacks on the Pirates because of his dislike of the front office guys, he always says that “the Pirates payroll will rise when they have players worthy of those salaries”. It is absolutely about the talent.

by Batavia on Dec 31, 2011 10:40 AM EST reply actions  

Smizik has said that the pirates HAD that talent but failed to add to it

theres a good chance that the pirates go through the same thing with the cutch/tabata/cole/taillon crew as well

by white angus on Dec 31, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Why spend money for the sake of spending money?

Reinvest in the draft amd internationally and pay down debt until you have a good team.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Dec 31, 2011 11:04 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

They can still invest up to the max in both each year

And they have a ton of debt to pay down.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Dec 31, 2011 10:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Why would they pay the debt down? They can just sell it along with the team when the time comes. Most MLB teams stay heavily leveraged all the time.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Dec 31, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point

As long as your expectations for inflation and interest rates remain low, and you haven’t been investing with Bernie Madoff. But I’m not a financial expert.

Lino Donoso

by Lino Donoso on Jan 1, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

The Pirates rate is not that low

And interest rates wont remain at record lows forever. You might as well pay it off while the principal is not compounding quickly rather then spend the extra $1M-$15M on a season in which that money has 0% chance of helping you make the playoffs.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 1, 2012 1:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

What is their interest rate?

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 1, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't say exactly because I would lose my licenses and charter

But they are between L+225 and L+625.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 1, 2012 7:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

What does that mean?

I’ve never seen it expressed that way, and when I google it I get nothing relevant.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 1, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I have absolutely no idea

but the L makes me think of Libor (London Interbank Offered Rate) which, depending on the term, could range from 3 mos at 0.29% to 1 yr @ 1.12% currently; then 225 to 625 probably means basis points which in this case would equate to a 2.25% to 6.25% range.

If you took the highest case 1.12% plus 6.25% = 7.37% then Kosstics statement that the Pirates’ interest rate is not that low makes sense.

Keep in mind, they’re not borrowing at current 30-yr mortgage rates. But why not? And again, I have absolutely no idea if this is correct, so why doesn’t someone enlighten us?

Lino Donoso

by Lino Donoso on Jan 1, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

If mortgage rates are very low now—which they are—why would commercial loan rates be bad? I’m paying almost nothing on a home equity line right now and I have no intention of paying it off, since we’re hoping to retire and sell the house in 1-3 years. Why would I be able to get a better deal than Bob Nutting?

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 1, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

L stands for Libor, the numbers are basis points or 0.01% each. Quoting rates like that is very common financially.

You may be able to get a better rate than Nutting because you probably have more collateral, less leverage, and better cash flow. The bank can take your house, they can’t take the stadium and what he owns is very intangible (at least on the Pirates side).

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 1, 2012 8:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I didn’t say “better rate,” I said “better deal.” Obviously, they’re two different financial markets.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 1, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Collateral is the main reason.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 2, 2012 8:14 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Yes, I know that. You’re missing the point.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 2, 2012 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Which is what

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 2, 2012 11:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The point is that if I can get a good deal in the context of the home loan market, surely Nutting can get a good deal in the context of the commercial loan market.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 2, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Depends how much debt and equity you have relative to him proportionally speaking.

And even if his deal is “good” it doesn’t mean they don’t have too much debt. They have significant non-baseball interests.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 2, 2012 12:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

You’re just speculating here. The fact is, most MLB teams carry a lot of debt and don’t pay it off, and MLB remains hugely profitable. I’m inclined to believe that the Nuttings have some clue how to manage their money.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 2, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Its not really speculating when they haven't been able to increase spending on an overall basis by much

The revenue is going somewhere, and interest payments are part of it.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 2, 2012 3:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

They haven’t increased spending much because their revenue hasn’t increased. Attendance was in a long-term decline until 2011.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 2, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Frank McCourt

Didn’t he basically buy the Dodgers on a credit card?

by SuperBaes on Jan 3, 2012 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Because not paying it down and creates less resources for future years by having your resources partially consumed by interest payments

If you pay it down in a year when you’ve maxed out draft and international spending, youre creating extra resources for future seasons which in the Pirates case are much more important than this season.

A lot if MLB teams are leveraged, but most are run terribly financially which is why literally at least one is in trouble every year.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 1, 2012 1:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Most MLB teams are heavily leveraged. If they’re all poorly run, that’s pretty scary seeing as how they’re all owned by very successful businessmen. But I don’t buy that. The practice in MLB is to buy teams primarily with debt and simply carry it. Because franchise values have skyrocketed, it’s a model that seems to work. A few teams have run into trouble lately, but it’s had mostly to do with Bud’s foolish practices as Commissioner, indulging unsuitable owners because they were his buddies.

There’ve been three franchises get into serious financial straits in recent years, but excessive leveraging was an issue only with the Rangers. (Even then, it was actually Hicks’ other businesses that got into trouble, not the Rangers themselves. They remained profitable.) The Mets ran into trouble because of the Madoff scam and the Dodgers because the McCourts were looting the franchise of tens of millions of dollars per year, as well as running the business poorly.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 1, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Franchise values have gone up 14% for 20 years on average I believe

Which isnt a return that’s highly likely to repeat itself over the next 20, but it could be possible because its a closed system thats heavily subsidized by state governments who throw around sick amounts of money.

The definition of speculation is when only asset appreciation can cover interest payments over the long run, and the definition of ponzi is when only debt refinancing and additional debt can cover interest payments. I’d say a number of franchises fall into that category.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 2, 2012 8:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i think you may be off charlie

In your statement that payroll will basically stay the same. Last year, I believe the Bucs spent around 52 million on the major league roster, spent around 17 mill on the draft, & not sure how much they spent internationally (I’m guessing 1 mill for sake of math). That’s 70 mill they spent last year. This year they are raising ticket prices, which FC has stated the money is going to be put towards the team. No clue how much revenue this will add, but I’ll guess 5 mill. So if we assume that means they have 75 mill to spend, 10 will be allocated towards the draft, 3 towards internationally, there’s still 60 mill available for the mlb team to spend. That would be a considerable increase

by Danatural08 on Dec 31, 2011 3:06 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

$60M would, indeed, be a considerable increase.

A word of advice, though. Don’t hold your breath, waiting for the Pirates to top $60M in team payroll.

by Midnight Moose on Dec 31, 2011 8:28 PM EST reply actions  

$60MM could help us bring back:

Joe Randa
Jeremy Burnitz
Matt Diaz
Lyle Overbay
Sean Casey
Eric Hinske
Aki Iwamura
AAAAANNNNNND
RAMON VAZQUEZ!!!!!

CHAMPIONS!

by H2O on Jan 1, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

The obvious choice is 2 sign Cutch with any available money, but since that doesn’t sound like its going to happen, I’d put the cash toward Cespedes.

by Danatural08 on Jan 1, 2012 12:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The problem for me has never been the payroll numbers...

It’s who the money is going to. Barmes/Barajas? Are they worth 1/4th of your payroll? Roughly 2MM on Nate Freakin McLouth? Instead, they could have kept Maholm, signed Bedard, and approached the trade market for a SS, Catcher, and maybe even a SP.

Gordon Beckham, Starlin Castro, and even Hanley Ramirez are all possible trade candidates for SS. The catcher market isn’t as great, but certainly better than a 36yo .230 hitter. And at SP? Gio Gonzalez, Matt Garza, and possibly Brian Matusz (If the Orioles give up on him). Heck, even Joe Saunders would be a good pickup.

We have prospects to deal, we don’t have to hoard them forever. If NH could at least make a deal for a 1B, this offseason wouldn’t be tooooo bad. But if I have to watch Casey McGehee on a regular basis… not good… not. good.

by H2O on Jan 1, 2012 9:58 AM EST reply actions  

You can definitely wonder about Barmes and Barajas, and certainly McLouth, and I think keeping Maholm would have been a good idea (I’m still holding out hope we can bring him back).

But I don’t think the trade market is filling those holes. At SS, Ramirez and Castro would cost a haul if they’re even available. Beckham is not a SS, and has two full seasons of near-Pedroesque backsliding under his belt.

Among starters, Gio Gonzalez fetched another huge prospect haul, and I expect Garza would too. There’s no rule against trading prospects, but you don’t want to give them all away either. Saunders doesn’t seem that much more exciting than the free-agent pitchers we might be able to get. Matusz — man, the 2008 draft class isn’t looking so hot at the top, is it? In the first half of the first round you have a lot of guys who haven’t produced up to expectations yet.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 1, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

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