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On Multitasking And The Pirates' Strategy

One of the stranger things about running Bucs Dugout has been that, as it has become a gathering place for Pirates fans with a particular outlook, there are now commenters - lots of them - who, if I saw them arguing with a typical Pirates fan in a bar, I would probably agree with 95 percent of what they were saying. And yet, when we get down to brass tacks in a place like this, where most of the commenters aren't necessarily typical Pirates fans, I wonder if we might be acting a little bit inflexible.

I think I understand where this comes from. In the Dave Littlefield era, it was hard for an informed Pirates fan to not sound single-minded about things like draft picks and the importance of building a team around young players, because neither the Pirates nor most of the fans had any idea how absolutely crucial most of those things are.

But this is a different time. Love him or hate him, Neal Huntington does understand that robust drafts are important. And while the average fan still might be a little hazy on draft strategy, exactly which young players are important, and so on, the overwhelming majority of Bucs Dugout commenters are aware that the only likely path to success for a team like the Pirates runs through the minor leagues (and, more broadly, with players with less than six years of service time).

Now that almost everyone here understands that these things are important, we should acknowledge that the Pirates have to put a team on the field, and that while we don't want Huntington's actions to seriously conflict with his long-term goals, he'll sometimes have to do things to meet other, short-term goals. He can multitask. And that's fine.

For example, if the Pirates have a hole at first base and are in the midst of a pennant race, even one in which their talent level dictates they're a bit of a longshot to win, I want them to be able to trade Aaron Baker for Derrek Lee. Baker is young and Lee is old, but Lee is helpful, and losing Baker will probably turn out to be no big deal. I think most folks here agreed with that when it happened, right? So most of us accept that, while we all want the Pirates to build with youth in the long term, we accept that it's sometimes okay to make small sacrifices towards that long-term goal in order to make the team better in the short term.

Well, actually, maybe that's a bad example, because of the possibility that the Pirates will get a compensation pick for Lee, and will therefore come out ahead in both the long term and the short term. But even if the Bucs don't end up getting a comp pick, I think most of us would agree that it was still a good trade.

I also think that the ultimate goal of building with youth - which, again, I think almost everyone here is down with - is not as simple as 'young players = good, veterans = bad.' As an example, let's take the possibility of adding Ian Stewart. When I write about the possibility of adding Ian Stewart or Wilson Betemit as a contingency plan for a Pedro Alvarez collapse, I'm obviously not suggesting something like the Joe Randa / Freddy Sanchez debacle in 2006, where the mediocre veteran is given a starting job in front of a youngster who's ready to contribute. That would be terrible, and I think almost everyone here understands why.

What I'm talking about is that Alvarez batted .191/.272/.289 last year, and never batted over .229 or had more than one home run in any month of the season. I'm talking about the fact that the Pirates eventually had to send him back to Class AAA to learn to lay off breaking junk in the dirt.

And if Alvarez has a .272 OBP and gets in 0-and-2 counts in every single at-bat next year, I'd like there to be someone around who can step in and start - not only because The Bad Alvarez is thoroughly painful to watch and because he costs the Pirates games, but because it's not at all clear to me that sending him out there every day to do a job for which he's thoroughly unprepared is the best thing for him. Yes, by ignoring third base this offseason you follow the cardinal rule of playing a talented young player whenever possible. But you might not be helping the team in the short term if Alvarez flops, and you might not even be helping the team in the long term if you feel like you have to stick with Alvarez come hell or high water. And you might not be helping anyone if Alvarez plays terribly and you absolutely have to send him to the minors, thus guaranteeing yourself 300 hacktastic at-bats by Josh Harrison or whoever.

I don't want to go after any commenter by name, and I certainly don't intend to freak out too much about comments I don't agree with, because like I said, I think I would agree with a lot of the posters I'm talking about most of the time. I'm just advocating a less rigid approach:

-P- There is no problem with acquiring a Stewart or a Betemit if you understand that those guys shouldn't get in the way. (And if Alvarez tanks and it turns out Josh Harrison is actually better than the veteran you've signed, then Harrison should be ahead of the Stewart or Betemit, too.) If Alvarez plays well, great - Stewart or Betemit might make a good bench player.

-P- Young players are very important, and you don't want to make a habit of trading prospects, but if you're able to trade an Aaron Baker or a Todd Redmond to get something you really like, that's not automatically bad. (And yes, I know Tyler Yates, who the Pirates got for Redmond, was terrible, but losing Redmond was no big deal.)

-P- Comp picks are great to have, but the compensation round only produces a couple genuinely good players most years, so those picks really aren't worth fetishizing. I think we've probably had more discussion about the comp pick the Pirates might get for Derrek Lee than about Derrek Lee himself. I'm not saying it wasn't a huge problem that some teams were picking 10 times before the Pirates made their second pick, only that a single comp pick is really just a nifty bonus to have, and that's all, particularly now that the Pirates' draft will have to abide by the rules of the new CBA.

-P- If you think the Pirates are mostly being run well, I think rooting for the team to lose in order to get a higher draft pick is pretty silly, unless the Pirates are in contention for the top overall pick.

The Pirates need to build with youth. I've been saying that for years, and I'll keep saying it. But that shouldn't preclude the Pirates from trying to do some basic things to put a competent team on the field. There's no need to be rigid about it. The Bucs can build for the future and do basic housekeeping at the same time.

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"I don't want to go after any commenter by name..."

Are you calling me a drunk, Charlie?

All kidding aside – I agree that people dig their heels in to defend their position, when we’re all talking about the same thing – the success of the Pirates.

We just have different ideas of how to achieve that success – and that’s okay, provided we try to see the other’s POV.

This is getting all Christmassy, isn’t it?

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 5, 2011 8:50 PM EST reply actions  

That does it!

You and me, outside. Let’s finish this, cocktails. If that is your real name.

by JRoth95 on Dec 6, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

FINE!

Meet me out by the bike racks after study hall, kid.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 6, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

No bottles.

I saw what you did to NuHo.

by JRoth95 on Dec 6, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

No bottles?

I suppose I’ll hafta bring a flask…

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 6, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

real nice post Charlie

I think this will appeal to front-office homers and sale-the-teamers alike.

by theatrain on Dec 5, 2011 8:54 PM EST reply actions  

I'm in full agreement...

that you make your gains with youth…and use veterans as a temporary patch while waiting for the youth to arrive and still be able to put a competitive team on the field. However, NH hasn’t done a great job of selecting the correct patches, at least with position players. A move like Lee WAS the right move to make at the time, but the August/September swan dive likely killed any true chance of him coming back.

Most of the names we’ve heard so far are just filler, while waiting for the kids. And with Ian Stewart, we found one of the few players with 2011 major league numbers worse than Pedro’s. Dumpster diving can work out OK, but going after someone that is worse than the piece you already have is counter productive.

by Thunder on Dec 5, 2011 9:17 PM EST reply actions  

when

still waiting on nh draft picks, seen 2 last year and they floped. I think both hit under .200. and his free agent signing have been bad for years, maybe nh and his 97 losses a year is the problem, this is his 5th year in 2012 and it looks like another 90 plus losing team is going to be put on the field.

"please buy the team mr. cuban"

by sweetleb on Dec 6, 2011 8:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I feel like this is about me

But I’m okay with that. I’d rather be all in and conserve what few resources we have, thats all.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Dec 5, 2011 9:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

It’s definitely not only about you. Thanks for being a good sport about it.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 5, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

guilty

I’m admittedly inflexible on the young-versus-old topic. The 35-year-olds are fine for the bench, but I want the starting eight to be either in their primes or heading into their primes (or named Pujols).

I feel moves such as the Lyle Overbay signing go beyond basic housekeeping, and represent the least creative solution to filling an important hole in the lineup. The Barmes and Barajas signings continue this pattern. I certainly hope they lead the Pirates to 90 wins, but I’m against spending that much money on second-division starters with low OBPs. But, yeah, I agree with Charlie’s main point that we all want the team to build with youth. I presume even the most ardent Barmes supporter wishes the Pirates had a home-grown candidate.

by bolton on Dec 5, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

We'd all like our starting 8 to be in their prime

but sometimes it doesn’t work out that way.

Overbay is also a way different topic from Barmes and Barajas. We had like 4 AAAA candidates for 1B last year. We have 0 combined C/SS candidates with success at the AAA level.

by Mr. E on Dec 6, 2011 7:36 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s difficult to argue with your rationalization when I don’t know what steps NH took to find younger alternatives. The speed with which he signed Barmes and Barajas indicates he considered them important targets, and that concerns me because I see them as reserve players. I do hope they work out better than Aki, Overbay etc.

by bolton on Dec 6, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

there was a huge dropoff of SSs after Rollins and Reyes, and Barmes was going to be in demand... you could say the same about the catching situation

its either NH signs two guys in demand, like Barmes/Barajas, or wait around/get turned down by everyone else and sign another Overbay

thats exactly what happened in 2011. Overbay was probably on the bottom of the xmas list for 1B

by white angus on Dec 6, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking trade or minor league FA. I’m a real Dumpster diver.

by bolton on Dec 6, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well just look at which SS and Cs have been moved this offseason

I guess we could have gotten Ianetta or Teagarden instead of just paying $4m. I don’t think any interesting short stops have been moved, maybe the guy the Blue Jays claimed from Cleveland, if his D is good enough for a full-time spot.

I think NH identified that the trade market was even weaker than the FA market for those particular positions. He probably knew that from failing to get a SS or C for the last 18 months.

by Mr. E on Dec 6, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point

I think it’s safe to say that, by last July, NH knew the OPS+, birthday, and SS # of pretty much every pro catcher above A-ball. If he thinks Barajas was the best plausible guy out there, I’ll trust him on it.

Barmes was a special case, in that he was (presumably) someone we had a better than usual chance at due to Hurdle, but only if we moved quickly – it’s one thing to come to Pittsburgh at market value because you like the manager, it’s another thing to ignore offers waiting to be the Pirates’ last choice.

by JRoth95 on Dec 6, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Is

it about me? Cause I will root for the Pirates to get a better draft picks if they don’t have a realistic shot to make the playoffs? Yes I agree that’s probably silly, and I don’t want that to happen at the expense of the progress of important individual players (If you offer me the choice between seeing major progress out of Pedro Alvarez next year and the 12th pick overall, and seeing him have a repeat of 2011, and the 3rd pick, I’ll certainly take the former)

The thing is, I’m okay with other people feeling its silly. It’s not that I’m aloof or anything like that, it’s just I respect the ability and right of others to have a different opinion than mine, and I might not always be right. In that vein, as long as a poster respects me and my opinion and at least makes an effort to offer real input in a moderately coherent manner (my standard really isn’t that strict; I live in West Virginia), I will certainly respect their opinion as well as listen to it and rationally consider its impact on my own opinions.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 5, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

winning breeds winning. losing breeds losing. I think that is the #1 argument against your position of tanking. We’ll never draw fans or sign free agents coming off a bunch of 60-65 win seasons.

by Mr. E on Dec 6, 2011 7:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I understand

and see the logic for your counter-argument. It’s a very good one. My simple counter argument to that is in 2008, we won 8 more games than the Nationals and more games than two other teams.

By doing so, we have Tony Sanchez, a solid prospect, in our farm system, instead of Stephen Strasburg ready to take the ball on opening day next year after coming back very successfully from TJ surgery.

With the FO’s propensity to spend evident, I feel like draft position is very important if we aren’t making a run to playoffs, moreso than any PR considerations.

In the same vein, had we managed to lose one more game last year (we won 3 of our last 6 last year, all "meaningless wins), the Pirates would be drafting 4th instead of 8th, which also would have resulted in an extra allotment of 1.3 million dollars. Dropping all three of those games would have had us drafting third and adding an extra million to the allotment.

Anyway, I think we did it “perfect” last year. We contended, made some moves to try and keep contending, and then we fell off we did so in catastrophic fashion, “vaulting” us to 8th in the draft.

All that being said, I’d much rather prefect us contending into next July again and drafting 15th than not contend and draft 5th. But if we are out of it clearly by the end of May, I’ll keep in the back of my mind who could be drafted with the first pick in 2014.

But again, I realize I’m crazy, in the minority, and probably an idiot.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 6, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

fetishizing

awesome word to use in a sports context, but I disagree with your opinion on rooting for them to lose. I think they are run well but also think there are only 2 spots you wanna draft from and if u can’t get the last pick then getting the first is next best. Worst or first, I think that in all sports, while it’s somewhat theoretical because making the playoffs and having that chance is worth something too, so I guess it’s more of if your bad then be really bad and be the worst. But atleast for the Bucs, that’s the best chance at the best player with the earlier the pick and that can make a huge difference, losing a few more games is the difference Strasburg and Sanchez remember, so it can be a big deal.

by SteelCity G on Dec 5, 2011 9:25 PM EST reply actions  

Certainly

possible, and it will always be possible to find good players later in the draft, but the best players come from the very top of the draft year and in and year out, and you also always risk another team taking a great player off the board first when they draft ahead of you, ala Strasubrg.

Plus, see above.

In the same vein, had we managed to lose one more game last year (we won 3 of our last 6 last year, all "meaningless wins), the Pirates would be drafting 4th instead of 8th, which also would have resulted in an extra allotment of 1.3 million dollars. Dropping all three of those games would have had us drafting third and adding an extra million to the allotment.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 6, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

and Sanchez was an overdraft to in many people’s opinion. You’d have a much harder time arguing if we had Shelby Miller or Jake Turner.

Strasburg and Harper’s aside, the MLB draft seems more about scouting and development than draft position. We can win 90 games and then still get Matt Moore in the 20th round and be fine.

by Mr. E on Dec 6, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Well said Charlie

I think this is a fair description of much of the debate on the site so far this offseason…

by KentuckyPirate on Dec 5, 2011 10:04 PM EST reply actions  

And you might not be helping anyone if Alvarez plays terribly and you absolutely have to send him to the minors

Alvarez is out of options, unless they can get another one.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Dec 5, 2011 10:11 PM EST reply actions  

Guess we will need to wait on the hard copy of the new CBA to see what the rules are on options. I thought I had seen somewhere that there was going to be some “fine tuning” of the option rules.

by Thunder on Dec 5, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Charlie

bit me!

Great writeup….LET’S DO THIS!

by Danatural08 on Dec 5, 2011 10:17 PM EST reply actions  

I feel

Like I want to give y’all a big, goddamn hug.

by Fat Jimmy on Dec 5, 2011 10:44 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

I agree in full...

but to the extent I’m one of the “targeted” posters, my point in the thread earlier today is that NH needs to add to the “core” of this team in an intelligent but significant way that has short term benefits at the major league level.

Barmes & Barajas are probably okay if they are part of a bigger picture. If, however, they are the main off season acquisitions along with bench players – particularly bench players backing up the “core” (including Pedro), then the off season is another in a long line of passive, let the future come to us off seasons. In the past that was defensable. I’m not sure it is entering the fifth year of the new regime with a rock bottom payroll.

Regardless of the particular players, I’m frustrated by the concept that the Pirates are not linked to Mark Buerhle, or Jair Jurrgens, or any of the A’s players. Why isn’t Hanrahan being discussed in trade rumors? The level the Nats are apparently willing to go to for CJ Wilson is not something that I want a part of, but what about what the Royals are doing now – why aren’t we being intelligently aggressive?

Good day.

by UncleNate on Dec 5, 2011 11:43 PM EST reply actions  

"I’m frustrated by the concept that the Pirates are not linked to Mark Buerhle, or Jair Jurrgens, or any of the A’s players. Why isn’t Hanrahan being discussed in trade rumors? "

Buehrle is in no way, shape or form coming to Pittsburgh.

And I’d wait until the Winter Meetings are over before worrying as to whether NH is going after any of the A’s players (Beane was quoted yesterday to the effect of “I feel like the most popular girl at the dance.”), or showing Hammer to be available.

I understand you trepidation, UncleNate, but let’s see how this and Rule 4 play out first.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 6, 2011 7:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Everything you said is reasonable, except...

I’ve been of the opinion for some time now (which I have posted previously) that the team needs to be aggressively looking to add major league talent and that the best way strategy for a team in the Bucs’ situation is to move aggressively early in the offseason.

That ain’t happening, which I view as a sign that we are in for a repeat of last off season.

Good day.

by Uncle Nate on Dec 6, 2011 8:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Ain't happening?

They signed Barajas & Barmes within days of FA eligibility, didn’t they?

I mean, they are “major league talent,” right?

I am confused.

Surely you didn’t mean Pujols Fielder Reyes

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 6, 2011 8:23 AM EST up reply actions  

They need to add to the core.

Pujols and Fielder aside, a creative, smart aggressive GM can do that. The current group has some decent pieces at the big league level and is doing little to add to it at that level.

Good day.

by Uncle Nate on Dec 6, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

takes 2 to tango, bruthah

i love how everyone assumes that any GM can get any player to sign for any team.
this is usually when they throw the Overbay signing in my face, like he was the first and only choice to play 1B

the marlins are signing these players only because they are offering huge sums of money… period. the pirates, no matter how rich you think they are, dont have the monetary means.

and yes, they need to add to the core, just like Nate said. but signing a Fielder or a Reyes would hurt this club more than help.

by white angus on Dec 6, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

remember guys playing for Florida get extra incentives due to tax-exemption.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 6, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

the royals have had great success at FAs

meche, guillen… they got lucky with Cabrera and arguably Francouer. but the best thing about signing Melky is that it got them Sanchez and Verdugo a year later.

royals will only go as far as their prospects will take them. their top pitching prospects are struggling or hurt which is why they aquired Sanchez. if the pitching finally arrives then you will see them jump. until then, the free agents they sign will more than likely not help so mucn.

by white angus on Dec 6, 2011 8:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn’t say they got lucky with Melky; it was a smart signing. People focused on Melky’s negatives — and believe me I know there were/are flaws — but he had at least held his own (No Pedroesque disasters) in MLB from ages 21-to-25 and was heading into his age 26 season. That’s precisely the type of player I want to see Huntington target, rather than blowing millions on mediocre players in their mid-30s. And for probably the fourth time, I’ll bring up Blake Dewitt’s name as a contingency plan for Pedro. He’s a former 1st-round pick, he’s got a pretty swing, he’s never totally sucked and he’s going into his age 26 season.

by bolton on Dec 6, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

but they did get lucky with Melky

they got him for cheap and also before his “career” year. thats lucky. now it gained them two LHP in return which they desperately need.

by white angus on Dec 6, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right. I was trying (poorly, I guess) to say they probably didn’t just pull his name out of a hat. A scout saw potential when it appeared he was heading toward 4A status.

by bolton on Dec 6, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

No, you made your point

Picking up GFJ was “luck” – some scout saw something, and NH was smart enough to grab him, but getting that half season out of him was lucky. Melky worked out as well as KC might have hoped, but I don’t think they were just taking a flier on him – some X percent of the time, a guy with Melky’s profile and age will have a career year.

It’s the difference between hoping for luck and playing the odds. Playing the odds doesn’t pay off every time, but it tends to over the long run, and you have better chances at a really good outcome.

by JRoth95 on Dec 6, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd add two things, Charlie

(1) The Pirates have the money to spend on the players you’re talking about, particularly now with the new CBA restricting what they can spend on amateurs. Their payroll is too low. There are real benefits to competing in the short run—e.g., a spike in attendance—but I don’t see any evidence that thaey buy that.

(2) If they don’t succeed in competing, a judiciously picked FA can bring back value. NH hasn’t been very good at finding these kind of guys.

Btw, do you realize that the Pirates may end up paying more for Barajas ($ 4 million, plus club option for another $3.5 million) than the Rockies pay for Ramon Hernandez ($6.4 million for 2 years)?

by rogero on Dec 6, 2011 12:04 AM EST reply actions  

On

the last point, yes, there was a fanshot on it. It is questionable to say the least. The only way to really defend it is the Pirates wanted to get a decent starting catcher option locked up early rather than being left out in the cold. I don’t think that pardons NH, but that’s the only thing I can come up with.

On your other points, I politely disagree with (1). Yes, a spike in attendance would be nice and beneficial, but its a crapshoot really until we have a core that looks good on paper.

On (2) I totally agree. I think that has been where NH has fallen short. We did turn Dotel into a decent return, but for example, the Rays picked up Brad Hawpe and signed him to a minor league deal, presumably got a handshake agreement with him in which he wouldn’t accept arb, and turned into a draft pick the following year.

We’ve seen none of that and it is kinda dismaying. That’s why, the more I think about it, if Lee doesn’t accept arb, I’d love to go after Carlos Pena, and if he does well, offer him the minimum amount that would grant us draft picks in the offseason after 2012.

Get a good free agent that’s within our price range (I believe), who can help now, and could turn into something later.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 6, 2011 12:40 AM EST up reply actions  

This makes two..

Hernandez > Barajas
Santiago >= Barmes

Both of the formers making significantly less than the guys that will be putting on Pirates uniforms next year. I just hope at least one turns out to be the better signing.

by jlk9697 on Dec 6, 2011 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Eh

I’m fairly confident Barmes will be.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 6, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow, hindsight is 20/20 with you people lately.

The Pirates looked at players they wanted. They went and got those players. So, looking back, they might not have gotten the best deal on the market, but there are no promises either of those players would have signed here for that money, if at all. If they had waited, and tried to get the perfect deal, people would have bitched like they did before the offseason started about how the Pirates always wait and try to find good deals instead of just signing quality players.

I, for one, am pleased the Pirates went out and paid market rate for decent players that they wanted. It’s better than waiting for a perfect deal and getting the scraps when it doesn’t come. I don’t care if another team made a great deal. Good for them. They’re not the Pirates, I don’t know if the Pirates could have made that deal. But the Pirates still got one of the few legitimate options at catcher and at shortstop, and I’m not going to whine every time somebody else makes a decent move.

by thecheeseisblue on Dec 6, 2011 1:39 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

This

is what I was trying to say above.. kinda.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 6, 2011 3:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Well said.

+1

As either FC or NH said (paraphrasing) “We saw players we wanted, and didn’t wait until all the other teams had passed through the buffet line before grabbing a plate this time.”

As far as anyone knows, we did make offers to Hernandez & Santiago. Nothing was said, nor will it likely be in the near future.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 6, 2011 7:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Which is why...

the Barajas and Barmes signings are probably fine IF THEY ARE PART OF A LARGER STRATEGY to improve the big league club. While there are other ways to complete the puzzle, the most plausible is via trade and the most plausible, responsible option would be to trade Hanrahan.

I’ll try to stop harping on this but, damnit, I really believe that NH needs to make a bold but intelligent move to upgrade this team at the big league level in the short term. There is still time, but it is discouraging to not see any hints that such a move is forthcoming. And know this in a proactive response to the anticipated retort that I’m being unrealistic: I think it is reasonable to expect a GM to make a really good trade to improve the big league team at least once during the 4th or 5th year of a rebuilding plan.

Good day.

by Uncle Nate on Dec 6, 2011 8:16 AM EST up reply actions  

My above response was made

without seeing this comment.

Personally, I’ve never found you to be unrealistic, to the best of my recollection.

I do think, however, that you’re being a skinch pessimistic (of course, given the Pirates’ past, this is not totally unreasonable), considering that “not seeing any hints” is how the trade market usually happens. F’rinstance – who saw the McLouth trade coming?

Anyway, I think you dig what I’m sayin’ and where I’m comin’ from.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 6, 2011 8:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Devil Rays model

“Never trade prospects”

Our farm system has just been a couple years behind the Rays the last couple years but I honestly think that is the model we are going for. The closest thing to a prospect Friedman has dealt (that i can think of) might be Delmon Young, which probably resembles the Mclouth deal the most but Young was better so he got Garza instead of Morton.

by Mr. E on Dec 6, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

but with the new CBA shit, i think the Rays will be dealing more than usual in the future

i dont see them holding onto all of their prospects in the minors when most of their roster is filled with guys with years of control left

by white angus on Dec 6, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

which part of the cba changed that?

by Mr. E on Dec 6, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

how do you figure santiago is better than Barmes?

when he hasnt been a full time starter in YEARS?!?!

by white angus on Dec 6, 2011 8:34 AM EST up reply actions  

i don’t think #1 really hits home. That was the whole beauty of the draft, $5m more got us Josh Bell, or Grossman, Miller, Holmes, Glassnow, Hafner, and Maggi. $5m more to spend on the FA market gets us Correia or Overbay for 1 year.

by Mr. E on Dec 6, 2011 7:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Good, logical post Charlie.

I tend to think that suffering through the shitty tenures of Bonifay/Littlefield we’ve really taken the whole.. “Young = Good, Old = Bad” thing to an entirely new level here.

The clamoring for Matt Hague to be “given a chance” is a very scary proposition. Sometimes, stop gap players are valuable if you have no one else to play.

An older, better player increases the product on the field, can provide trade value, make the starting pitching better, and the small, insignificant cherry on top “mentor the young guys”.

by jlk9697 on Dec 6, 2011 1:16 AM EST reply actions  

Aaron Baker‽

How absurd!

#31 All Day...

by SmokyB on Dec 6, 2011 3:30 AM EST reply actions  

Horrible article

Once again no mention of Lars.

by pineapplepete on Dec 6, 2011 6:37 AM EST reply actions  

Now that everyone is in group-hug mode...

…after this post, I have a feeling this place is going to get mighty boring save for the occasional LARS reference. Might as well go over to Sideshow Bob’s blog and stir the pot there.

Seriously though, you are as thoughtful and insightful as usual, Charlie. I tend to support the front office’s moves and wish they would lay off the Clint Barmeses and Rod Barajases of the world, but they do have to field a team, so better to spend some money and put legitimate (semi-legitimate?) major-leaguers out there instead of staring Michael McKenry and Chase d’Arnaud 100+ times.

The Bucs can build for the future and do basic housekeeping at the same time.

Agreed, agreed, 1000 times agreed.

It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.

by Bishop1973 on Dec 6, 2011 7:27 AM EST reply actions  

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