1965-9 Bucs
by MazHOF on Dec 7, 2011 4:31 PM EST
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Willie Stargell
Many people remember the “Pops” of the 70’s but, what was Willie like during those years? The video of Willie during the ’71 series shows a very chiseled athlete. How was he in the clubhouse, surrounded by all those other great players? Were there glimpses of the player he was to become? One more question, please. Who was your favorite player, during that time, on a personal level?
Re Stargell
Willie was playing LF in those years, but his power was obvious. I recall one shot hit just to the right field side of dead center that just missed hitting the batting cage on the fly. If you know anything about Forbes Field, you’ll realize what a shot that was. I was never at a game when he cleared the right field roof, though.
Re “in the clubhouse,” I guess “not at all friendly” pretty much summed him up. Now recall this was in the mid-late ’60s and there was a lot of tension between blacks and whites throughout the country. Stargell hung with Clendenon & Bob Veale – all three real big guys and I knew enough to leave them alone. Clendenon was the leader of the group. Always had the rep as a “clubhouse lawyer” which followed him to the Mets.
By far, the guy on the team i was friendliest with was Jerry Lynch, who I recall wasn’t there after the 1966 season. What a super-nice guy! He helped me get an autographed ball from that team which I still have. Jerry May (catcher) was also real cool. Gene Alley was also. And Harry Walker who was the manager for some of my time there was also a good guy and loved to talk, especially about the “old days.”
My favorite player was always Clemente. He could be moody, and when he was even the other players left him alone. Other times, I had a good relationship with him. You could tell right away whether to chat with him or let him alone. Other than Bob Prince who he really liked, he was suspicious of pretty much all media members. He saw me as a kid he’d met several years ago and didn’t really regard me as any “media threat” (which was quite correct.)
I hope that was informative. feel free to ask more questions.
by MazHOF on Dec 8, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, so much
I reviewed Willie’s stats and saw a lot of inconsistency. I’m sure some of that came from him being such a “late bloomer”, getting taller and bigger after high school. Growing into such a frame took years, apparently. I became a Pirates fan when my favorite player on my brother’s Dodgers team, Maury Wills, came over in ’66. It is sad that the media had to be the way they were, with Clemente. As a kid, I had always wondered why his baseball card said “Bob”, when I knew that Hispanics preferred “Roberto”. I cannot imagine growing up and following a losing Pirates ball club. Some of us had a blessed childhood, with real heroes to follow on the baseball diamond.
Let’s do that again, me Buccos!!!
by Larry Harrell on Dec 8, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
Maury Wills
Funny you mention him. I spoke with him in the clubhouse several times and saw him a lot driving around Oakland in a BRG Triumph.
He actually opened a bar downtown while he waswith the Bucs called “The Stolen Base.” He’d sometimes show up there and play banjo. I brought a date there once and he sent over drinks, which was REAL nice. In those years, downtown was basically a ghost town after dark.
I ran into Maury during the K.C. – Phillies World Series at Vetern’s Stadium. A buddy of mine worked in the media and had game tickets and tickets to the NBC tent party in the parking lot before the game. Wills was at the party and remembered me.
thanks, MazHOF!
regarding Bob Veale, I know next to nothing about him (except for what’s on his baseball cards)… but as far as I can tell he’s the closest to a Nolan Ryan-type of hurler that the Pirates have ever had.
so, just how good was his stuff? What did he throw, and what did it sound like when his fastball hit the catcher’s glove? How was Veale as a competitor… did he glare at opposing hitters, or brush them back? (as you might already know, lately the Pirates have had a bunch of nibblers in the starting rotation, so the idea of a consistently hard-throwing Pirates starting pitcher like Veale is almost unheard of, at least until Cole/Tallion get here.) thanks!
Veale
His best pitch by far was his fastball, which was quite good. He’d brush guys back for sure.
He was real tough on lefties. His main issue was that his control would desert him at times. And he’d occasionally seem to lose his concentration.
by MazHOF on Dec 11, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Stargell
Your comments are the first time I have seen anything in print to suggest that he was anything but the kindly old patriarch Pops of the Pirates clubhouse. I have however talked to some people who had contact with him and the “Pops” image was at odds with what I heard. That said, your comment about the times is well taken though. I have heard stories of some of the crap Stargell experienced while playing minor league ball in the South. I think you have to view people actions and attitudes within the context of their experiences and background.
Funny thing, I’m pretty sure that he came out of Oakland CA with Joe Morgan and they both had very distinctive mannerisms at the plate – Stargell windmilling the bat and Morgan with that “chicken wing thing” with his elbow.
JM was one of the best ballplayers I have ever seen and I still think he is fairly underrated.
"Don Mossi was the complete five-tool ugly player. He could run ugly, hit ugly, throw ugly, field ugly and ugly for power.
Time and place
The few black guys on the team would be expected to stick together and maybe keep a lower profile. As they became more accepted, and even embraced, that paved the way for the enlightened 70’s in Pittsburgh. Even though Alameda, California wasn’t the most cultured of places, compared to inner city slums, Stargell and Morgan didn’t see all the hatred while growing up. I can certainly understand the mistrust of the 60’s, having to be on the road, playing minor league ball in the Deep South. Some of those great black players of the 60’s transcended race issues, and the game took a big philosophical leap forward. I’d like to think that Stargell’s ’79 Pirates were the first full embodiment of a diverse “family”.
by Larry Harrell on Dec 10, 2011 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
Then there was this lineup
against the Phils, Sept 1, 1971 at Three Rivers Stadium. Bruce Markusen at Baseball Guru has a nice writeup about the game.
Rennie Stennett 2B
Gene Clines CF
Roberto Clemente RF
Willie Stargell LF
Manny Sanguillen C
Dave Cash 3B
Al Oliver 1B
Jackie Hernandez SS
Dock Ellis P
No big deal according to the players, and Manager Danny Murtaugh. That team, with Bob Robertson, Gene Alley and Richie Hebner playing most of the games at 1B, SS and 3B, finished 97-65, First in the NL East.
I’ve always thought Al Oliver was vastly underrated as a member of the Pirates and a baseball player generally. In an 18-year career mostly split between the Pirates and Rangers, he posted a .795 OPS with 2743 hits and 219 HR.
Lino Donoso
Agree about Oliver
Scoop was the type of Pirate you wished could have been a part of the 1979 World Champs, even though the club needed to bolster the pitching staff. He was known for those scorching line drives, and I also recall Oliver winning a batting title with Montreal, didn’t he wear the uniform number zero with Texas and Montreal? Three reasons why I think Oliver’s career is underrated: First, he wasn’t a big home run hitter. Second, most of his career was with smaller market teams. Third, as you posted, he fell only 257 hits shy of 3000.
Fitting to see the 9/1/71 lineup produce a 10-7 win over Philadelphia. Look at this unusual pitching box score: Dock Ellis 1.1, Bob Moose 1.1, Bob Veale 1.1, and Luke Walker 6.0.
Regarding 1971, Bruce Markusen wrote a fine book recently called “The Team That Changed The Game”. Has a shot of Clemente swinging on the cover.
by SteelStealth on Dec 10, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
This thread just keeps getting better and better!
Thanks to MazHOF for starting it. Think I’ll rec it again.
Lino Donoso
by Lino Donoso on Dec 10, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Stargell
I could be mistaken, but I think Willie grew up in the L.A. area. Yes, he played in the South in the minors and I’m sure he did experience quite a lot of ’crap."
As i said in an earlier post, Stargell seemed to follow the lead of veale and especially Clendenon. I guess after they left, he became more of a leader.
Morgan was an excellent player – probably the best overall 2B I’ve seen.
Welcome aboard!
I look forward to reading your posts.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
Hey MAZ
I was also on the staff at WPGH in ’64-65. Do we know each other?
PSrunning out to do a little work. Will check back later.
Lino Donoso
WPGH
It sounds like you graduated just before I arrived at Pitt (fall of ’1965).
We might know some of the same guys from the station, though.
Jim Smith, Art Feller, Duffy Taylor, Jim Godfrey – all should have been there when you were.
After 46 years it's starting to blur
Funny, though, that our memories of the Pirates not only stay sharp, they get better with age. I got married in ’65 and had to focus on finishing my degree and getting a job. I remember Jim Smyth: Great voice and loved Rock & Roll. His ambition was to become a Program Director for a Rock Station. Majored in Latin for the scholarship. Scott Reeder and Carl Blatchley were the engineers who did a heroic job of keeping us on the air. Bob Kaplan. Lamar Lemont: what a set of pipes! Was Art Feller the Tackle on the Football team?
Hey, wait. This is supposed to be a Pirates blog. OK, one of my favorite memories from that period was walking across Forbes Ave after an evening class and through the open bleacher gate. I could usually count on a good two innings, and if the game went into extra innings, great!
Bob Prince sometimes strolled through the stands pre-game, wearing some of the loudest plaid sports coats in creation. Every time I saw him I’d yell “Hey, Prince, Who’s Your Tailor?” Prince, Jim Woods and Don Hoak made up the greatest Pirates broadcast team ever, IMO. I have to add, I got on the corporate merry-go-round by the early ‘70s and didn’t hear many Bucs broadcasts thereafter.
My favorite baseball memories from that era are of Roberto swinging violently at a pitch. When he connected, which wasn’t necessarily that often, he could send the ball to the batting cage, or over the iron gate in Right Center. I saw both. For sheer power, though, I once saw Willie McCovey hit a ball on a line to the screen down the right field line. Recall, it was 319 ft, falling away rapidly to right center with a 30-40 ft screen (IIRC). The ball was still rising when it hit the screen and stuck there for a moment before falling to the base of the wall. Clemente ran to the wall, picked up the ball, wheeled and threw on a line to second base, where McCovey was by now standing. I’ve never again seen a ball hit so hard, or get back to the infield so fast.
Lino Donoso
WPGH
Jim Smyth was the Program Manager my 1st three years there. Let’s just say we didn’t get along! Art Feller was an engineer – worked with me a lot on Pitt basketball games. Jim Godfrey was the Sports Director during my first 2 years – really super guy who taught me a lot. Duffy Taylor was the Program Director who took over from Smyth in my senior year.
Yep, I also made a couple of late game strolls across Forbes to the bleachers. One night, we got there in the 7th inning and I think the game lasted 13 innings. I remember a buddy of mine and I talking with Fergie Jenkins in the bullpen most of the time. he was a real cool dude!
1964-69
Mazhof…You are fortunate to have witnessed the Bucs building the foundation for the sucess they had during the 70s…during the late 60s the bucs were bringing up the likes of hebner,oliver,robertson,sangy,clines,cash…combined with the great one(clemente), stargell,blass,ellis,guisti, and managed by the litt;e leprechan(murtagh) the bucs gave their fans one of the greatest decades of baseball…
Did you know Joe L. Brown? He had some interesting observations in the book “Out of Left Field,” and I’d be curious to know what he was like.
Joe L. Brown
No, I never met him. The only guy in management I knew was their P.R. guy, Jack Berger. He was a real good guy!
MazHOF
I believe Danny Murtaugh managed one season during the dates you mentioned, what are your memories of the Whistling Irishman? Do you feel his reserved nature, managing style, four different stints as managers, and death in 1976 have damaged his Hall of Fame chances?
Lastly, what kind of manager was Harry Walker?
Murtaugh
Honest answer – I had very little contact with Murtaugh. I guess he usually stayed in his office most of the time before games. I probably exchanged greetings with him a couple of times but we never really talked.
Walker seemed like a pretty low-key guy who let the players play. He was originally from Alabama and still had a real Southern accent. I always wondered if that hurt him with the black players on the team. His brother (Dixie) led the boycott of Jackie Robinson when he joined the Dodgers. Dixie eventually backed down, bit Branch Rickey ended up trading him to the Pirates.
One thing I didn’t mention in my original post – RIP to Jose Pagan & Matty Alou. Pagan was a very nice guy who always seemed to be in a good mood. Alou was real shy (his english was pretty limited) but I got him to talk with me a few times and his sense of humor would come out at times.
Have to add
Prince always said that Harry Walker loved talking hitting more than anything else. Prince credited Walker with turning Matty Alou into a .300 hitter when he took over CF from Virdon in 1966. Alou had been a lightly regarded-and seldom used slap hitter in six years previously with the Giants. After Walker got ahold of him, Alou hit .342, .338, .332, .331 and .297 in almost 2900 AB between 1966 and 1970.
Lino Donoso
Walker & Alou
That’s a very true story. Walker showed Alou how to use Forbes to his advantage. As I posted before, he really liked to talk about anything baseball-related. He was a damn good hitter in his day!
Thanks so much
for the wonderful memories. Do you recall any feelings in the clubhouse regarding the move to a new stadium? I can remember being all exited about the idea of no pillars, big scoreboard, etc. Was there anyone who wanted to stay in Forbes? The idea of the DH was starting around then. Do you recall any conversations as to its merits/drawbacks? All my life I’ve had a recurring dream that Forbes Field is still there and the Bucs play some of their games there. Thanks to your post it looks like I’ll have it again.
Sorry
I left Pittsburgh in early June of 1969 after graduation. I don’t recall ever discussing the move to 3 Rivers with any of the players. However, I’m sure they all loved it. The clubhouses at Forbes were REALLY small and basically had no amerities. I have to believe they were much nicer at 3 Rivers. Plus, the stadium itself was in pretty bad shape by then. And of course there was next to no parking near Forbes, which of course was no problem for me but did really hurt their attendance.
Forbes Field
was built in 1909, so it’s normal to expect the facility would be aging by the 1960s, odd to see the move to Three Rivers occurred halfway in the 1970 season. Also unusual to see a team debut new uniforms in the middle of the season.
As we know, the additions of Montreal and San Diego brought about the two division league format beginning in 1969. Had there been an East-West format a few years earlier, the Bucs would have been Eastern Champs in both 1965 and 1966.
by SteelStealth on Dec 11, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Welcome!
It’s great to have someone on the board with your perspective. 65 -69 were the years that I learned to love th Bucs so I really enjoyed your comments.
"Don Mossi was the complete five-tool ugly player. He could run ugly, hit ugly, throw ugly, field ugly and ugly for power.
This great historical post
about the Bucs is the type of subject I wish we could see on the main page, so more of the younger fans could learn about the rich tradition of this franchise. History does matter, and baseball has such a strong historical fabric, it should be recalled and shared with everyone.
Not sure if you were gone
by the time the whole “Chicken on the Hill with Will” thing started. Stargell had a chicken restaurant in Pittsburgh and anyone who was in the store at the time he hit a home run got free chicken. If I recall correctly they had to stop doing it because people would stand outside of the store and rush in when he came up to bat. I guess it ended up costing a lot. If I close my eyes I can almost hear Bob Prince (in that gravelly cigarette and bourbon voice) saying “Spread some chicken on the hill with Will”
"Don Mossi was the complete five-tool ugly player. He could run ugly, hit ugly, throw ugly, field ugly and ugly for power.
Interesting
I sure remember KDKA and Prince with that phrase, but had no idea how it originated. Even to this day, some of Stargell’s tape measure shots have yet to be equaled.
by SteelStealth on Dec 12, 2011 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
Bob Prince
I knew him pretty well. He was really a character! Maybe I’ll post some of the stories in the future.
I do recommend a book about him called “We Has Em All The Way” (another of his pet phrases) by Jim O’Brien. I also knew Jim real well when I was in Pittsburgh. He does tend to repeat himself at times in the book, but it’s a good read.
If you gave me the choice
of one guy who, in the entire history of the world I would like to party with, it would have to be Bob Prince. Probably the best baseball announcer I ever heard but probably one of the worst hockey announcers I ever heard: “they got it, we got it, they got it”. That was after his gig with the Bucs. For you “young uns” who never heard him, for the passion and exceitement he brought to the game, the best parallel I can draw would be Mike Lange.
"Don Mossi was the complete five-tool ugly player. He could run ugly, hit ugly, throw ugly, field ugly and ugly for power.
Prince and Clemente
had a special bond. In fact, Roberto gave Prince his first Silver Bat(won for the batting crown), as a gift many years ago. Prince accepted, and became very emotional, and said the bat would be returned to Roberto’s family after his death.
I believe this incident happened in 70 or 71. It’s described in greater detail on the Bob Prince CD, think it’s available on the team website.
by SteelStealth on Dec 14, 2011 1:34 AM EST up reply actions
Announcing
I never heard Prince announce a hockey game, but I can believe he really struggled with it. I’ve done basketball and football and both are much easier than baseball or hockey. For Baseball, you need to be good at filling in the numerous dead spots during games in addition to calling the action. The Gunner was great at that. Hockey is REALLY tough. You have to know the players and be able to QUICKLY describe the flow of play. Mike “Doc” Emrick seems to do it so effortlessly – really amazing!
Penguins
On the CD, there is a short cut of Prince announcing a Pens game after the Bucs let him go. Prince did return to do a couple Pirate games on cable in the 80s, before passing away, think it was cancer.
by SteelStealth on Dec 14, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Prince
The main reason he was originally fired by the Bucs was because he POd one of the big sponsors of the broadcasts.
I did see him on a few occasions after I left Pittsburgh in 1969. The last time was a year or two before he died. Ironically it was at a Pitt-Army game at West Point. I was taking a leak at halftime and Prince was a couple of uninals down. He just looked over at me and said something like, “What the hell are you doing here?” I laughed and said I lived only about an hour away. I wish we could have talked a little more!
The baseball biography project
has an absolutely wonderful biographical sketch of The Gunner by James Forr.
Lino Donoso
Even as a kid,
I knew that we had something special in Bob Prince. His distinctive style set us apart from the other teams and made the Bucs our own. When he was fired and generic announcers were brought in it white washed the whole thing and made us like any other game you’d find on the radio dial. I’d love to have someone make us unique again but I think it was a once in a lifetime era.
Distinctive Style
is a good way to describe The Gunner. I still have the 1971 Season LP, and it’s fun listening to Prince after all these years.
by SteelStealth on Dec 14, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
Today's Broadcasters
All sound like they were made from the same mold. Really no more colorful characters like Prince, Harry Caray, Mel Allen. I guess teams don’t want them to be more popular than the players.
Vin Scully is the last of that breed.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
Very short-sighted of them
Prince was “The Voice of the Pirates” for almost 30 years. A lot of players came and went in that time, and although we treasure the memories of a few; most are forgotten, like “the little lefty, Lino Donoso,” as Prince called him. Prince was the emotional connection between the club and the fans, as both The Pirates and KDKA learned after he was fired.
Same goes, I’m sure, for Ernie Harwell of The Tigers, Byron Saam of The Phillies, Caray, Mel Allen, Red Barber, etc.
Incidentally, my mother graduated from Schenley High School with Prince.
Lino Donoso
Maz, what are your memories of Gene Alley?
Alley was a promising shortstop whose name may be unknown to younger Bucs fans. A shoulder injury short-circuited his career, or else he would have been a starter deep into the 1970s.
Gene Alley
He was one of the more approachable guys on the team. Kind of a quiet guy, though.
He was a very underrated defensive SS. He and Maz were a great double play combo.
He was an OK hitter, but not much power. Pretty typical for a SS in those days.
Quite underrated by fans outside of Pittsburgh,
but I remember reading (back in the day) about how much respect he had from other players.
He and Don Kessinger were of the same mold as players. Always liked ’em both.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2011 8:23 AM EST up reply actions
FYI
I still have the Gene Alley bat I received on “Bat Day” (remember those!) proudly displayed in my house. Bat day was one of the highlights of the baseball year in those days.
"Don Mossi was the complete five-tool ugly player. He could run ugly, hit ugly, throw ugly, field ugly and ugly for power.
Sandy Koufax
Did you ever see Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson pitch? If so, how did the Pirates handle them?
Thanks sooo much for sharing your memories.
Wow!
I did see Gibson in person. Not sure about Koufax. I recall the 1966 season when the Bucs were fighting for the pennent with the Dodgers & Giants. They both came to Forbes in September for 3 game series. I’m almost positive Drysdale pitched one of the games for L.A. and Koufax may have pitched another. I do recall Juan Marichal pitching one of the games for the G- Men. He was damn good also.
I recall one year (either ’68 or ’69) I was in the Bucs dugout before a Saturday afternoon game with the Dodgers. It was the NBC Game of the Week telecast and Curt Gowdy did an interview with Koufax and Drysdale almost directly in front of me. That was cool.
I recall that Clemente always hit well against Gibson. Other than that, those guys were tough on everyone!
according to baseball-reference.com
Koufax only pitched twice at Forbes in 1966, on May 14 and on August 1.
Drysdale likewise pitched only twice at Forbes in 1966, on August 2 and August 31.
1966 Season
Thanks for the reference! That’s a great tool.
My memory was a bit off. The Bucs played a 2 game series with L.A. On August 31st and Sept. 1st. They were tied for 1st place when the series began but lost both games. Drysdale won the first game. They actually were still tied for 1st after the 2 losses and then opened up a 1.5 lead after beating Atlanta on 9/6.
The 3 game series with the Giants took place on October 1st and 2nd. Marichal won the first game of the doubleheader on 10/1. They were 1.5 games back heading into that series and ended up in 3rd place 3 games back.
Clemente broke Gibson's leg
in 1967 with a rocket line drive, I heard about. In 1971, Gibson no-hit the Bucs, 11-0 at TRS, I don’t know how many other no-hitters have ever been pitched versus Pittsburgh.
Oh, the memories
I listened to the game Clemente broke Gibson’s leg. Watched on TV the night of May 15, 1967 when Clemente homered to left, center and right and drove in all seven runs in an extra inning loss to the Reds at Crosley Field. We saw them all during that magical five year period, the start of my own personal favorite period of 1965-1975. Alley is a real gentleman still today, Maz a delight of a human being. Bob Veale is tough, intense, competitive and a very wise and highly intelligent man. I never spoke to Clemente or Stargell, but watching them play was one of the treasures of my childhood. The talent in that league—Clemente, Stargell, Mazeroski, Law, Matty Alou, Gibson, Carlton, Brock, Cepeda, Richie Allen, Callison, Bunning, Santo, Ernie Banks, Billy Williams, Jenkins, Seaver, Rose, Perez, Aaron, Carty, Niekro, Mays, McCovey, Marichal, Felipe Alou, Joe Morgan, Koufax, Drysdale, Wills and dozens of others I overlooked. I still remember listening to holiday doubleheaders that always seemed to involve the Cubs, and how every other team lineup was embedded in our memories: Kessinger, Beckert, Williams, Santo, Banks, Hickman, Hundley, Phillips. I still have dozens of audiotapes of Gunner called games from that period that I am going to digitize. Can’t wait to see Maz, Virdon, Veale and a few others at Fantasy Camp next month (my second year running—this one will be themed for the 1992 team). Van Slyke, Lavalliere, Drabek, Walk, Bell and others will be there. Thanks so much for this delightful thread, and for sharing your memories.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
Ooooh, I wonder if any "Pirate copies" of those tapes
might become available?
Lino Donoso
My exact thought.
Richie, PLEASE let us know if those become available. You’ll bring back the front porch days!
Link to where I purchased the Gunner cassettes
This is a treasure trove. It will take a hell of a lot of time to work through these, and I will be cursed for the money some of you will spend, but buy a few, flip on a cassette player and pop open an Iron:
http://www.baseballtapes.com/baseball-game-page—1
This takes you to the first page of several. To get to the main page, just cut off everything after.com
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
It's good to be young,
but not much fun being a Pirates fan since 1992. This is the fun stuff, and more accurately represents what the franchise is all about. While the 1965-69 Bucs did not reach a World Series, they set the stage for the golden decade of the 70s.
Good times, and worth recalling. Wish MLB would wake up, and produce a dvd on the history of the franchise. They released a VHS version back in the mid 80s, called “The Battling Bucs”.
by SteelStealth on Dec 18, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
Haha
my dad and granddad have told me plenty of stories.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 18, 2011 1:44 AM EST up reply actions
Great story
People used to make fun of Murtaugh, say he was dim and such. The guy was shrewd as hell. He’d corner young pitchers from the other team, conveniently while the Pirates were taking batting practice. Somehow, he’d engage them in prolonged conversations, while they got an eyeful and an earful of Stargell, Clemente, Oliver, Hebner, Zisk, Robertson, Sanguillen, Cash and others hammering balls all over te place. One kid, a Cub rookie, ran into the visiting clubhouse and puked after seeing Stargell destroy something or other that you’d need binoculars to see. You lived with years of that, and this @&)! gets really depressing after nearly twenty years.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
No doubt, if the streak
reaches the round number of 20 this upcoming season, it will be even more depressing. Expect more coverage and piling on, basically the same stories which have been written since 2000.
Getting back to Murtaugh, I think dying back in 1976, has hurt his Hall of Fame chances. With any living candidate for Cooperstown, there are opportunities for interviews, and contacts with other people in the game. Had Murtaugh lived 10-15 years longer, that opportunity for more recognition would have existed. He does have a strong case for Cooperstown if you look at the data.
by SteelStealth on Dec 18, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
Oops, should have mentioned
Murtaugh died at the age of 59.
by SteelStealth on Dec 18, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
I started following the Pirates in 1950.....
…..at age 7, after discovering Rosie Roswell (pronounced Rose-well) and Bob Prince describing Pirate games on the radio. Roswell was as much of a character as Prince….. and as Roswell’s protege, Prince owed some of his inimitable style to Rosie.
Actually, the 50’s were a pretty rough decade to be a Pirate fan (but I was too young to know any better). If anything, those teams were worse than recent teams. In fact, for the 8 seasons from 1950 through 1957, the Pirates finished last or next-to-last in the 8-team National League EVERY YEAR..
The only good news was that the bad spell didn’t last as long as the current one. The Pirates had assembled a pretty decent core (e.g., Roberto Clemente, Bill Virdon, Bob Skinner, Dick Groat, Bill Mazeroski, Bob Friend, Vern Law, Roy Face) and surprised the baseball world by finishing 2nd in 1958. After dropping back to 4th in 1959, we all know what happened with the Bucs in that magical 1960 season…… even if only 2nd or 3rd hand. I was a freshman at Carnegie Tech, actually in Chemistry Lab, when Mazeroski hit his historic home run….. and later joined a celebratory trek all the way from the Oakland section of Pittsburgh down Forbes Avenue to the Golden Triangle and back….. on foot, no less. Actually, walking was faster than trying to drive or take a street car, with wall-to-wall people along the entire route.
At any rate, those years from September 1960 through June 1964 at Carnegie Tech were golden for me as a Pirate fan….. since I was able to attend almost all home night games while at school. Forbes Field was a less-than-10-minute walk from campus, and it cost only $1 to sit in the LF bleachers, which started just past 3B and extended to the LF wall. (Seats located similarly in most of today’s ballparks are called box seats.) I managed the pop concession in my fraternity house (a Coke machine and a Pepsi machine)….. and the profits off those machines financed my bleacher seats.
At any rate, many of my favorite moments during those years consisted of watching Clemente and Mazeroski play baseball. In one game, an opposing hitter lined a “tweener” into right center. Clemente tracked the ball down at the wall in deep right center….. then whirled and threw toward 3B as the hitter tried for a triple. While I saw Clemente throw out many a baserunner, in this case he OVERTHREW the third baseman (probably Don Hoak, don’t remember for sure) and his throw sailed into the 3rd base box seats ON THE FLY.
More than once, I saw Clemente swing and miss….. swinging so hard that he made more than a full revolution and fell down in the batter’s box. Clemente was so great to watch because even some of his failures were spectacular. And it’s still hard to believe that a guy that small could hit a baseball as far as he did sometimes.
On another occasion, I was at a game with several friends when Clemente hit a gap shot….. and was moving so fast while turning so sharply and leaning so much at first base that his left hand momentarily touched down (in the dirt). I looked at my friends and asked, “Did I just see what I think I saw?” A couple of the other guys saw the same thing. Remarkable! Another interesting thing about Clemente was that he wore his batting helmet (no ear flaps in those days) while playing RF.
And Maz….. so good (perhaps the right word is “magical”) on defense that I’ve never seen another infielder who could match him. Ozzie Smith was outstanding, but in my opinion, not Mazeroski’s equal. Maz’s signature move was his “no-touch” pivot on the DP. The ball was in and out of his hands so quickly that Prince nicknamed him “No-touch.”
I remember many other wonderful plays and players from those years, but Clemente and Maz were tops.
by magnumo on Dec 18, 2011 11:36 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Sounds like we're about the same age
70 last Thursday. . .and have a lot of the same memories.
My earliest memories of the Pirates start with Hank Greenberg(!) in 1947. I was too young to understand much, other than that he was a big deal. I remember being a little confused around World Series time in the early ‘50s when broadcasters referred to Brooklyn as “The Bums.” from hanging around my Dad, Grandfather and Uncles when they listened to broadcasts of Pirate games, I thought the Pirates were the bums. My family’s critical faculties were highly developed.
If you google Branch Rickey Pirates, the top links will show a six-part Hardball Times series on Rickey’s history with the Pirates. I’m trying to remember also a story by — I think — Gene Wojchiechowski on Rickey’s drafts, trades and other player moves in that period. Talk about throwing things against the wall to see if they’ll stick!
Lino Donoso
Wow!
You’re the 2nd guy I’ve run across on Pirate discussion boards who actually is older than me. I’ll be 69 in May….. so you have about a year-and-a-half of seniority.
I remember hearing about Hank Greenberg, mostly in the form of the “Greenberg Gardens” installed in LF at Forbes Field as an inviting target for him and Ralph Kiner. Unfortunately, both Greenberg Gardens and Hank Greenberg (and Ralph Kiner, too) were gone before I saw my first game in person in Pittsburgh. In fact, Greenberg was gone several years before I discovered the team on the radio….. but Kiner was still there, hitting a lot of home runs.
I hate to admit it, but the only major league game I saw in person before age 15 or so was in Philadelphia. My grandparents lived in Philly, and my grandfather was an AVID Phillies fan. My grandparents had very little money, so he rarely went to a game in person….. rather, he sat by the radio in his living room, chewing tobacco, smoking cigars and frequently cussing away when something didn’t go well for the Phillies. But that one game (when I was about 10, plus or minus) was a special one. Robin Roberts pitched against Don Newcombe. If I remember it right, both pitched complete games, struck out a bunch of hitters, and gave up only 3 or 4 hits each. I remember that the Dodgers won the game, 1-0. But my clearest memory was from warm-ups before the game. We were in the outfield stands well over an hour before game time, and one of the Dodger coaches was hitting high flies across the outfield to the Brooklyn outfielders, who were in a group right in front of us. Duke Snider was putting on a show for the fans. When it was his turn, he’d camp under a fly ball, and at the last second, he’d quickly bend forward at the waist and catch the ball in his glove behind his back. I was a typical kid at the time, and his performance “wowed” me completely….. but I remember thinking that he could have gotten seriously hurt if he misjudged and the ball hit him in the head. Never happened though….. he must have done it 5 or 6 times, slick as could be.
Do you remember Teddy Beard? He was a reserve outfielder for the Pirates for several years in the late 40’s and early 50’s. I remember that he was a little guy who never amounted to much….. hit under .200 for his career and hit less than 10 home runs total….. but his claim to fame was that one of those home runs cleared the RF roof at Forbes Field. At that time, very few hitters had accomplished that. I believe Babe Ruth did it once, as did Mickey Mantle. Seems that Bob Skinner did it once or twice (after Beard). A bit later, Willie Stargell did it several times. (I was at a game when Wally Moon did it.) At any rate, Beard was in elite company for that one home run.
Billy Meyer
For those who followed the Bucs during the 1940s and 1950s, I have to ask the question about why the organization retired Billy Meyer’s number #1? Meyer managed only five seasons, compiling a 317-452 career record, along with winning Manager of the Year honors in 1948. I understand he was a popular figure, and can’t be blamed for the lack of talent in the 50s, but it still feels like a strange choice. 1948 was not a pennant-winning year.
Trying to look at this from the context of the 1950s, the Pirates already were a very accomplished NL franchise, so it’s not like they were hunting for numbers to be retired. I wonder if this was just a knee-jerk reaction to Meyer’s death by ownership at the time.
by SteelStealth on Dec 18, 2011 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe because he suffered so much as Manager of the Pirates
Of course, Fred Haney, who succeeded him, suffered even more; two 100-loss seasons in succession, and three eighth-place finishes in a row, before he was replaced by Bobby Bragan.
Lino Donoso
by Lino Donoso on Dec 18, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
I contacted the Pirates about that
In general, I’m against the idea of retiring uniform numbers. (If the practice persists….. and MLB survives long enough, it’s pretty obvious that teams eventually will need 3-digit uniform numbers. But that’s the subject for a different discussion.)
At any rate, as a Pirate fan, I was frequently reminded of the uniform numbers retired by the team. I remembered Billy Meyer as manager and knew that his teams had not performed well. Finally, a number of years ago, I contacted the Pirates and asked why his uniform #1 had been retired. The person on the phone didn’t know….. but said she would have someone call me back. The next day, a guy from the Pirates’ PR department did indeed call me back. His answer was that Meyer was one of the nicest people in the history of the game and was universally loved by everyone associated with the Pirates franchise. I politely challenged that answer, and told the guy that all other retired uniform numbers of which I was aware involved outstanding lifetime performance for the home team. (My inquiry took place before MLB retired Jackie Robinson’s #42 for all teams.) The guy responded that Billy Meyer was a special case. He had checked around in the archives and with a couple of long-term employees, and the answer he gave was the best he could do.
Note: Meyer’s 5-year record (1948-1952) as Pirates’ manager was 317-452 (.412). He never managed another major league team….. and his performance as a major league catcher (almost a century ago) was no better. I’ve never heard a stranger story about a team retiring a uniform number. Can’t imagine something similar happening today.
Don't remember Ted Beard
Selective memory, maybe, because I remember Stan Rojek, Dino Restelli, Clyde McCullough, Pete Castiglione, Catfish Metkovich, Clem Koshorek and, of course Lino Donoso and Curt Roberts. For HRs, nothing beat Dale Long’s eight HRs in eight consecutive games, a record not equaled for years and, after Kiner was traded, the first accomplishment by a Pirates player that drew national attention after years in the wilderness.
The Pirates and (probably) the City had a promotion called The Knothole Club. I signed up at Arsenal Park in Lawrenceville and, w/probably 20-30 other kids got on the old Flying Fraction, the 77/54 Streetcar to ride out to Oakland for the game. All it cost us was carfare both ways, as I recall.
I remember Robin Roberts well, and Curt Simmons, his left-handed counterpart. They killed us.
Lino Donoso
by Lino Donoso on Dec 18, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
Yes indeed.....
…..those names bring back a lot of memories. It was before I discovered the team, but I remember my dad telling me about when Restelli came up and hit a bunch of home runs in his first few games….. and Pirate fans thought they had another Ralph Kiner on their hands. Unfortunately, opposing pitchers discovered that Restelli couldn’t hit a curve ball, and it was all over for the guy.
How about Roman Mejias (I think he hit three triples in a game once), the O’Brien twins (who both were utility infielders and relief pitchers), and Gene Freese? And do you remember the time that Cliff Chambers pitched a no-hitter and walked about a dozen guys?
I was never a member of the Knothole Club, but I DO remember PA announcements at the ballpark about bunches of Knothole Club kids attending games from time to time.
Yep
I remember Roman Mejias and that three-triple game; and Johnny and Eddie O’Brien (two of the three outstanding basketball players, along with Dick Groat, the Bucs had on their team at the time); and not only Gene Freese (who tore up his ankle in a horrible accident sliding into second) but his brother George Freese as well.
The Pirates seemed to have a thing for brother acts in the early Fifties. Wonder if Cards 3B David Freese is any kin?
Also, Frank Thomas, 3B, Number 15. Don’t know why I remember that so clearly. He was our big power guy after Kiner was traded. Regularly hit 25-35 HR/yr from about ‘52-’58, and he did it as a RH bat in Forbes Field with its 365’ left field line. Hey, we could use somebody like him today! He was traded to the Reds for, I believe, Smokey Burgess and Harvey Haddix in 1959 — the trade that put us over the top.
Lino Donoso
Brings back more memories
Yes….. I remember brother George as well as Gene….. and I remember Gene Freese’s injury. I always thought that Gene could have been a really good player if not for that injury. I also wondered about whether David Freese is related to Gene and George….. looked it up and determined that he is not.
Frank Thomas was my favorite Pirate, after they traded Ralph Kiner away. (Like most kids at the time, I valued home runs over everything else.) In fact, I wore #15 in Little League due to idolizing Thomas. I remember Thomas playing CF and LF as well as 3B and 1B, and I remember his odd batting stance, holding his hands in very close to his chest. I was shocked and unhappy when Thomas was traded….. but you’re right….. they got Burgess, Haddix, as well as Don Hoak in that deal, and it’s generally credited as being the key to the World Series Championship season in 1960.
Your mention of Haddix reminded me of sitting on my living room floor, listening to his 12 perfect innings on the radio. The opposing pitcher, Lew Burdette, gave up 12 hits but shut out the Pirates. I always despised Burdette because he had a habit of doing that against us….. giving up a lot of hits but somehow managing to beat us. Both pitchers pitched the entire game, 13 innings for Burdette and 12-2/3 innings for Haddix. I wonder what their pitch counts were?
Thinking about that also reminded me of the time that Vernon Law pitched 18 innings in yet another game against the Braves, and he did it on 2 days rest! Unfortunately, Bob Friend relieved Law for inning 19 (Friend also wore uniform #19) and promptly gave up a run….. but the Pirates came back and scored twice in the bottom of the 19th inning, making Friend the winning pitcher! In his next start, Law pitched a 10-inning complete game win.
Beard
I’ve heard that story about Beard hitting one over the RF roof at Forbes. I’m pretty sure Skinner never did it. I recall that Wally Moon was known for hitting cheap opposite field HRs over the screen in left field for the Dodgers when they first moved to L.A. and played in the Coloseum. They were called “Moon Shots.”
Kiner and Prince were very close and in fact went in on some business deals together that never seemed to work out. For many years, Kiner broadcast the Mets games and hosted their post-game show on TV. I’ll never forget after the Bucs killed them, Don Schwall and Jim Pagliaroni came on the show dressed in togas and eating grapes. Prince was with them. Kiner didn’t know whether to be POd or go along with the joke. It was VERY funny!
MazHOF
70-some comments and seven recs on your first post! You’ve struck a gold mine, my friend.
Lino Donoso
by Lino Donoso on Dec 18, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
I'm certainly enjoying it
from lurking and such.
by BlindSquirrel on Dec 18, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
Good job Maz HOF
Bringing back some great memories, as this is also when I learned to love the Bucs. First game June 1, 1965, Bob Veale with 16 Ks though the game was twice delayed by rain. Only thing I remember is a double by Andre Rogers off the screen right in front of us in right. My brothers still say that Johnny Callison flipped the bird to fans who were harassing him in right. You sent me looking for one of the few other games I recall being at, June 5, 1966. Stargell 5-5, which extended his hit streak to about 9 or so, Stargell 2 HRs, Clemente 1. Toy Cannon Jim Wynn lights up Veale for 2 HRs, one to deep left center I’m certain, Bucs win 10-5 with 16 hits.
The 1966 team was as good as or better hitting than the 1970-72 teams, but it was Bob Veale and pray. Vern Law struggled after excellent 1965, Blass was on the team but 1-2 years before he became good. Basically a 3 way tie on Sept. 1 with Dodgers and Giants, but faded.
Clendenon 29 HRs, 2 at Forbes, 27 on road. Clemente hit about 25 HRs to go with aerage, Stargell hit about .315 to go with his power, Gene Alley .299, Maz 16 HRs and supersub Mota about .340. Alou .350 or so…..
Skinner did it twice
I looked it up to be sure. Here’s a complete list of the 10 players who hit a total of 18 home runs over the RF grandstand roof at Forbes Field.
- Babe Ruth (the final home run of his career, #714)
- Ted Beard (one of his 6 lifetime homers)
- Mickey Mantle
- Wally Moon (I attended that game.)
- Bob Skinner (2)
- Eddie Matthews (2)
- Jerry Lynch
- Rusty Staub
- Willie McCovey
- Willie Stargell (7)
Great to get that list!
I never knew the Dog hit two over the roof – and was shocked to see Jerry Lynch’s name on the list. Like I said in my original post, he was super-nice to me. Last I heard, he and another ex-player were running a golf course a couple of hours outside the Burgh.
That would be Dick Groat
Google Champion Lakes GC. it’s near Ligonier. Not a golfer myself, but my Dad would have loved it.
Lino Donoso
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