Would the Bucs Pursue Pujols?
by zogger on Feb 4, 2011 7:50 PM EST
Email
PrintIf negociations broke down between the Cards and Pujols such that he became a FA in 2012 would/should the Bucs try to sign him?
Interesting article covers King Albert's options:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110204&content_id=16567580&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
Assuming the article is right and the Cubs would be pursuing Pujols, why not the Bucs? For Pujols the Bucs might be a more attractive option thna the Cubs. The Bucs would be a younger team with budding stars, a SP staff about ready to get a bunch of good young arms, and a known manager in Hurdle. So if Pujols was interested would/should the Bucs spend $125M+ over 5 years.
Thoughts?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Um . . . . . . . . . . . .
No.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
On a serious note…When the Pirates can fill PNC Park with about 2 or 3 years of sellouts, then they can start thinking about paying someone that kind of money.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 4, 2011 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
It would take the Pirates committing about 50% of their payroll to one player. . .
assuming he would even want to sign with us. Not going to happen, nor should it.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Well
So if Pujols was interested would/should the Bucs spend $125M+ over 5 years.
I realize that that sentence includes the word “if”. That being said, that would be maybe HALF of what he’s going to get in free agency. Or even from the Cards as an extension. If he doesn’t get $25 MM/year for at least 7-8 years, I’ll be stunned. As will the rest of the free world.
COULD the Pirates afford him?? Considering what is/would be paid to the rest of the roster…yes.
WOULD the Pirates ever make an offer to him?? Maybe about a week after hell freezes over.
COULD the Pirates afford him?? Considering what is/would be paid to the rest of the roster…yes.
And you’re basing this on . . . what, exactly?
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Funny, I thought the Pirates were the secret stash keeping the ski resort in business.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Feb 5, 2011 1:48 AM EST up reply actions
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 5, 2011 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
Assuming Doumit and Maholm and Overbay are gone for next season(2012 or whenever there is baseball again)…current payroll isn’t going to be much more than $30M. If the Nuttings cannot or will not pay for a $60-70M payroll (when one figures $25M for Albert and $10-15M to tie up Cutch and/or Pedro)…then they’ve been BSing the Pirates fans for a long time about ponying up when the time is right.
Voodoo economics
No way on earth the Pirates sign Pujols for $25M/yr. Maybe he’ll take that to play for the Cards, but on the open market he’ll get well over $30M, and the Pirates will have to pay well over market price to sign him (of course, realistically there’s no way he’d sign in Pgh.). Ryan Howard, a 3.5 WAR player, is getting $25M. Pujols is an 8.5 WAR player. A-Rod, who’s no longer nearly the player Pujols is, will get $31M this year. $35M is a much more realistic figure.
And you’re assuming Cutch and Pedro are the only players who’ll be worth locking up. The whole team will see its salary escalating every year, unless things just fail and rebuilding starts all over again. A far more realistic approach would be to add $35M for Pujols, plus whatever you think Cutch and Pedro will cost, to the current payroll of a little over $40M. That’ll account for numerous salary increases plus the need to bring in a couple moderately costly pieces every year to fill holes, like every other contending team has to do. If you want to have the faintest hope of contending, then with Pujols you’re talking about a payroll of $80-90M before players like Cutch and Pedro hit the real money. At that point, of course—since Pujols would take a very long-term commitment—Pujols’ contract would start making it impossible for the Pirates to retain any other key players.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Feb 5, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
I won’t argue about the $30-35M for Pujols…that’s reasonable.
Right now…the Pirates Opening Day payroll this season looks to be around $41M…give or take a million. In my scenario above…it was without Doumit and Maholm (traded or non-tendered for next season) or Overbay (no need if Pujols were playing 1st). That kills $16.5M from the payroll…so we are down to $25M. If they were replaced by minor leaguers…that adds $1.3M back…so let’s say $27M just for giggles. There’s no NEED to tie up Alvarez in the next couple of years, although it would be nice. He can’t become a FA until after the 2016 season
You could pay Pujols $30-35M a season…and the payroll isn’t going to be much more than about $65-70M until Pedro and Cutch hit Fort Knox. Unless, of course, you are going to put $8-10M a head on a new SS or starting pitcher.
Wilbur, us disputing whether the Pirates COULD afford him is irrelevant, because the chances of hell freezing over, or the Mayans being right, are both better than the Pirates signing Pujols.
I think the Pirates signing Pujols is in the director’s cut of the movie “2012.”
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Feb 5, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Pedro and Cutch are going to hit Fort Knox long before 2016. Cutch will be eligible for arb. by 2013, Pedro by 2014. If they are what we hope they are, they’ll get real money the first year and big money by the second. And a Pujols contract will have to extend well beyond 2016. You’re basically confirming my argument above—no room in the payroll for any other veteran help, no ability to hang onto top players other than Albert, and little leeway to afford anybody else who becomes a good player. Somehow, I don’t think Albert, Pedro, Cutch and a bunch of replacement-level players are going to accomplish much.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Feb 5, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Fort Knox money...
is free agent money…not arby money.
The only ways Pujols goes much past 5 years on his new contract…are resigning with the Cards…or signing with the Yankees.
is free agent money…not arby money.
Either way, the Pirates won’t have it for Petey and Cutch if they sign Pujols.
The only ways Pujols goes much past 5 years on his new contract…are resigning with the Cards…or signing with the Yankees.
Jayson Werth laughs at your five year contract and calls it a silly thing.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Feb 5, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The three greatest mistakes...
1. Never get involved in a land war in Asia.
2. Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line.
3. Never ask if the Pirates have a chance of signing Albert Pujols….
Unfortunately, I couldn’t find a shorter clip, but my reaction is the same as this.
"[T]o hold the body of women in our arms is ... the one ecstasy granted to the race of men."
by Trogluddite on Feb 4, 2011 11:32 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Princess Bride ref's
Will always get a rec from me…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 5, 2011 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
I can hear the St Louis fan base
Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You didn’t sign Pujols. Prepare to die.
well it would be a platoon, of course
duh
by white angus on Feb 5, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The type of platoon
where Albert bats and Lyle plays the field so Albert doesn’t get hurt doing that right?
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 5, 2011 3:38 AM EST up reply actions
If Pujols is willing to accept a five-year deal, he will be a Cardinal. The holdup, as far as I can tell, is he wants an 8-to-10 year contract and he’s already over 30 years old. I don’t envy the Cardinals. It would be tough to lose Pujols, but it might be even tougher to pay him almost $30 million per year when he’s 36-to-41 years old. As historically great as Albert has been, he’s going to decline at some point.
Problem for StL nutshelled.
If you want APu, you need to go 8 years at 30 per, and hope the Cards won’t.
Shouldn't we be rooting for the Cards
to pay him $30 mm/yr for 8-10 years, thus crippling their financial flexibility for that period? I mean, eventually, they HAVE TO run out of other people’s money, right?
Not so worried about the Cubs. They apparently have an inexhaustible supply of money, and an inability to use it to put together a good ball club.
Lino Donoso
i agree
and i think deep down, pujols wants to be the highest paid cardinal, which means holiday’s huge contract is about to be dwarfed.
my boss is a cardinals fan, and he thinks pujols will give them a hometown discount. i didnt realize that he played for the Santa Domingo Cardinale’
He did go to high school in Missouri, actually.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 5, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Excellent idea.
I don’t see how this could possibly go wrong.
On another topic. I’m buying a $90,000 2011 Cadillac Escalade Hybrid 4WD. Never mind that I only make 1/3 of that every year. I’ll just eat nothing but oatmeal, cash in my Roth IRA and sell off everything else I own. Because ya know, if I don’t buy it, I’m just cheap and ruining the economy with my cheapness. I should totally Sale the Car I own right now if i’m not gonna get the best and most expensive one around.
He's right.
It’s him. I hadda send Ms. Cocktailsfor2 back to the hotel after the tailgating rather than go to the game, because she was falling under the influence.
It’s almost fortunate that he won’t be at this year’s Gathering.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 5, 2011 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
"On another topic. I’m buying a $90,000 2011 Cadillac Escalade Hybrid 4WD."
Then you’ll be able to pickup cocktails and his significant other in Chicago on the way to the next Gathering and let him ride in style. IPF might want a ride, too.
I was Sort of Serious
I agree the Cards would nuts to let him walk, but they seem to be doing a good job of doing that right now.
King Albert would be the most premier FA ever and all teams (that could afford him) would make an offer. So he could pick his team.
But assuming he would he consider the Bucs, would giving him a big deal really be that crazy? Sooner or later the Bucs will have to get their payroll above $100M if they are going to contend. Even the Twins had to pay Mauer $12.5M.
I agree that the Bucs will need to draw alot more fans to pay such contracts, but what should come first? Sign big names to plug holes in your team and the fans will come OR hope the fans come and then sign the players?
I posted this so people could start thinking about what the Bucs need to do in a few years when the NH wave of talent starts appearing.
twins have a much better situation than the pirates, better market, and no more pohlad
but they are going to lose morneau and many others because of mauer’s deal.
ive never liked the comparison of the pirates to the twinkies. twins are NOT small market and have considerable wealth. pohlad was NOT known for spreading any wealth around.
Money must come first.
There are no successful examples of a team that significantly raised payroll to a level beyond their current revenue and who then saw attendance rise to make up the difference.
No successful examples.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 5, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
On the other hand...
the Pirates payroll isn’t anywhere near what their revenues COULD allow. When the Pirates are even close to the $50-60M payroll that the current revenues could support without the Nuttings suffering any losses, then I will believe they are serious. And there are NO indications that will happen any time in the reasonable future. I actually anticipate that the 2012 payroll will be lower than this years.
There is absolutely no basis for your belief they are not serious.
Yes, current revenues could support a $50M-$60M payroll, I agree. But, every single team who has followed a building plan like the Pirates are currently doing lowered payroll substantially at the beginning of it.
The Twins, Phillies, Brewers, etc. They all had extremely low payrolls at the beginning of their current run of good teams.
And, of course, 2012 payroll could be lower than 2011 with Doumit and Maholm gone and replaced by first year players. Why would that make the Pirates not serious about raising salary in the future? Do you expect them to spend money just for the sake of spending, rather than spend it where needed?
The best thing that could possibly happen for the long term health of the PIrates is to have a young, cheap and good club for a few years that raises attendance and revenue so that the Pirates can have a cushion built up for the future.
This is exactly what happened with the Brewers, Twins and Phillies, and what has allowed those franchises the ability to gradually raise their payrolls to current levels.
Notice how all of those teams have extremely solid season ticket bases right now because they have had excellent attendance for quite a few years.
DL's philosophy on life
Do you expect them to spend money just for the sake of spending, rather than spend it where needed?
Yes, spend it on old, unproductive veteran players. Avoid spending it on signing young, productive players to extensions.
Avoid spend it on upside draft choices.
The Pirates have 2 of the 3…young and cheap.
You can believe that the Pirates are storing up money for the future…I’m not buying it. And attendance isn’t going to help all that much. Everything I’ve seen indicates that the average Pirate fan puts out about $27 a game. If the Pirates raise their attendance to 2.4M (matching 2001, the team record)…that’s an increase of 800,000 fans. So, we add maybe $22M to revenue.
If the Pirates payroll ever gets above $65M (current payroll, plus increased revenue based on record attendance)…then I will start believing that they will spend above and beyond. Frankly, I don’t anticipate it happening any time in the next 3 or 4 years.
You can believe that the Pirates are storing up money for the future…I’m not buying it.
The leaked documents showed that they’re not doing this in any big way — the profits aren’t large enough for more than a modest amount of retained earnings.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
I wasn't claiming...
they are/could be stashing money. Mark suggested it.
Either they are stashing money for a future high payroll…or they are just barely making ends meet…waiting for attendance to increase. Which is it??
Frankly…if they are barely making ends meet…they should probably shut up about spending the money when the time is right…because they will never build up enough talent to make the time right. We’ve still only got half of a lineup…with no prospects for the other half…and a pitching staff that’s about 4 years away. Just in time for Cutch and Pedro to walk into Fort Knox…and someone else’s dugout.
I was agreeing with you . . . .
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Feb 7, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
If we take a look at 2001 payroll
Then we probably will have a good idea where payroll could be at a future time when attendance and ticket prices will be at 2001 levels.
With revenue sharing and MLB revenue rising and lifting all boats, as the saying goes, the Pirate should be able to maintain the same level of payroll relative to all other teams as they had in 2001, which was just south of the average payroll in the league. They had the 18th highest payroll that year.
In 2010 dollars, that would amount to about $80M. In 2010, the Brewers were 18th with a $81M payroll.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 8, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We wouldn't need Pujols for 2012 because I foresee a Lyle Overbay extension in the works.
If not, we have Steve Pearce!
Maybe if we
Had somebody willing to do what’s best for the team and fans. But no.. BN Is just about worse than this site. Pathetic bums
by Jake The Snake1 on Feb 5, 2011 11:25 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Troll.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 5, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
If you think “what’s best for the team” is to spend money it doesn’t have, then you are truly a delusional person.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 5, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Flagged as Troll.
Jake knows less about baseball than anyone I’ve met or even seen on the internet.
But
in his incarnation as BFD1, he’s … oh, never mind.
I do note, however, that since it’s been pointed out that they could be traced as being the same person via ISP tracking, that Jake has taken to posting from a phone.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 5, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
What is his website again?
I want to check it to see how little traffic it gets and how much traffic from the same sources.
Not that Jake.
I dunno what site it is – I can’t be arsed to remember it because I never read it. WTM knows…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 5, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
That Jake took down his website. Just like he has apparently been known to do in the past. He said he was tired of everyone stealing his good ideas. Ha!
Actually, he’s been stealing Tim’s ideas. He announced his prospect book shortly after Tim did, then immediately after Tim announced the publication date Jake announced that his book would be published on the same date.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Feb 6, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
He has a pretty sweet newsletter now.
This weekends incarnation included comparing the pirates to the steelers, and how much “P#ssies” the pirates are.
Also, “a very high correlation between Spring Training records and regular season records”
He is a savant, we just haven’t figured out what he’s good at yet.
by Wizard of Woz on Feb 7, 2011 8:59 AM EST up reply actions
Also, "a very high correlation between Spring Training records and regular season records"
FWIW, there’s a small correlation between ST and regular season records at the extremes—teams that have extremely good or bad records in ST tend to have good or bad seasons, respectively, although the tendence isn’t overwhelming. Otherwise, there’s no statistical correlation at all.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Feb 7, 2011 9:07 AM EST up reply actions
And even that is to be taken with a grain of salt. SSS, plus teams do not distribute playing time evenly across the board. They are practice games, and then when it comes to split squad…
ST records are, I believe, a poor predictive tool.
by Wizard of Woz on Feb 7, 2011 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
ST records are, I believe, a poor predictive tool.
So is Jake. Do two negatives make a positive?
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Feb 7, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
Not too sure if you need to preface tool with predictive in that statement.
by Wizard of Woz on Feb 7, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
BN Is just about worse than this site.
by theatrain on Feb 7, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well.....
I’m trying to take this topic seriously. So, from a serious perspective, there are a few problems with the Pirates pursuing Pujols. First of all, the Cardinals are going to do everything in their power to keep him, because it would be a disaster to their fanbase to let him walk.
But, beyond that…. I agree 100% with what bolton (and others) have said about the length of the contract. Pujols will want 8-10 years. And the Pirates will be paying him the most, when he’s the least valuable, which would be a major hindrance for the last few years of the contract (hate to see someone paying him 30+ million/year when he’s in his 40’s).
A Pujols contract would destroy the Pirates ability to lock up any young player (McCutchen being the top of that list…followed by Tabata, Taillon, etc).
While Pujols would be a tremendous addition to the Pirates roster, the financial ramifications would destroy this franchise.
Pujols is going to start to decline soon. I’d give him all the money he wants, but for three at the most, because the Pirates can’t afford to have albatross contracts down the line when it comes time to pony up for Cutch, Alvarez, and even later Taillon (and Rendon).
I’d pay out the ass for a few years of the guy, but he’d want more than the three years I’d give him.
Exactly. Which is another reason it won't happen.
The point is that the Pirates probably could afford to pay him that much. It would just turn into a disaster very quickly, even if Pujols stayed a 6 WAR player for the next five years.
by Suffering Buc on Feb 5, 2011 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
you make a very good point, but i dont they they could afford him
i dont think there would be a huge bump in attendance if we signed Pujols. sure, a few thousand more season tickets maybe, then the first few homestands… but if the team stinks, it will quickly go back down to “normal”
I predict...........
………..next December the Pirates acquire Pujols then the apocalypse begins the following day.
If Pujols leaves the Cards via free agency...
….does that mean the Cards will have 18 losing seasons in a row?
That'd be awesome.
Considering that since 1910, they’ve never had more than three straight losing seasons….
However from 1902-1910, they totally sucked. 9 years in a row.
How?
Does this thread have this many replies? Really need pitchers and catchers to report.
The Hallowed Words
“Pitchers and catchers . . . .”
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Feb 5, 2011 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
I was thinkin the same thing
I never thought this post would get over the famous “69 Comment Plateau”
twitter.com/iandavidjackson
by omar moreno on Feb 5, 2011 10:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Just out of curiousity...
anyone know what the season ticket sales numbers have been for the Pirates the last few seasons?? The last numbers I could find were for the 2007 season…around 9 thousand.
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