Tim Alderson article on ESPN

by pskell02 on Feb 9, 2011 11:52 PM EST

Just read a pretty good article on ESPN (imagine that) regarding top prep pitchers losing velocity and overall "stuff," specifically speaking to Tim Alderson's forgettable 2010 season. The piece focuses on teams throwing programs and how the 60, 90, and 120 foot 10 minute sessions are potentially causing players to lose velocity. Many of these players grew into their ability level by long-tossing regularly, up to 350'. The article also mentions Brewers farm hand Mark Rodgers who was topping out at 100 mph as a prep pitcher. When switching from the long-tossing program he was accustomed to to the 120 program, he ended up having 2 major arm surgeries and upon returning was topping out at roughly 87 mph. He requested to go back to the long-tossing program and since has regained his "zip" and is a top prospect in the system again.

The Pirates have employed the 120 system, or something similar to it, for the last decade+ and the results with our pitching prospects has been less than to be desired. Texas and various other teams have relaxed on their strict 120 system for all pitching prospects and it appears to have been successful with their young arms performing well through the minors and into the majors.

This all got me wondering and concerned with the future of the young guys entering the system and those coming up from the low A levels. I don't know what kind of throwing program that Taillon, Allie, ZVR, Cain, etc. have come from, but is this something that you all feel could be a negative effect on them and ultimately hamper their success as they grow into prospective top tier MLB pitchers?

Sorry for the long read. First Fanpost and I could feel myself rambling a bit, not knowing entirely what I was wanting to say. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts regarding the subject.

Link requires ESPN Insider.

Alderson

-Patrick

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

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That’s a serious concern. The Pirates had a series of prep pitchers see drops in their velocity in the early years under DL (they mostly stopped drafting prep players about midway through his tenure). Haven’t seen that happen yet under NH (Alderson’s velocity was already down when they acquired him), but not many pitchers have been put to the test yet.

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.

by WTM on Feb 10, 2011 12:17 AM EST reply actions

This is totally foreign to me, but very interesting

I’ve never heard specifics on the standard long toss programs in HS, College, or MILB. Could some one please elaborate on what each is, and why they use different ones?

RIP NATE. RIP TONY PLUSH.

"I'D BE A CHEF"

-TONY PLUSH

by GTrain on Feb 10, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions

loss of velocity

A lot of people attribute the loss of velocity prep pitchers experience when they first get into the pros to the rigors of throwing more often over a longer period of time. It’s basically the same reason that pitchers throw harder in relief than as starters. I don’t really know anything about the whole long-toss debate, but increased workload is the standard reason for loss of velocity by preps.

The article is fine, I guess, but I don’t take much away from it. Maybe lack of long-tossing is the reason pitchers lose velocity and get hurt in the pros, or maybe it’s just increased workload. Maybe Mark Rogers needed two surgeries not because he stopped long-tossing but because he spent his teenage years trying to throw a ball 350 feet all the time. Who knows?

I do hope Alderson figures things out, though.

by epoc on Feb 10, 2011 1:07 AM EST up reply actions

Agreed

Interesting post. I knew that a few teams were analyzing the issue.

But this is something, I would hope, teams study seriously.

With the investments the Pirates have made in top young arms, you’d think they’d be basing a throwing program on a sound scientific approach.

And I suspect the Pirates are.

by Bernie6 on Feb 10, 2011 1:09 AM EST reply actions

The whole article seems to paint

a gloom and doom picture in general of the way pitching is taught at the pro level, specifically the minor league level. However, this needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Not accusing the author of anything, but its so easy to choose specific facts that support your theory or hypothesis and that’s what he’s done here. It’s the equivalent of a very small sample-size.

He redeemed himself with this section, which best summarizes the article

But evidence suggests that rather than being dogmatic about one method over the other, throwing programs should be as individual as the pitchers themselves.

The best part of the article was the possibility that Alderson regains his velocity. If he can actually sit in the low 90’s again and top out at 94, hes a very legit prospect, with a potential plus plus curve. He’s still fairly young, so (not trying to bash) I’m saying it would be foolish to give up on him like many on here gave up on Neil Walker.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 10, 2011 2:42 AM EST reply actions 1 recs

Neil who? >:P

by white angus on Feb 10, 2011 8:25 AM EST up reply actions

I'd disagree with the section on throwing method

I think it needs to be studied carefully.

I think teams need to implement the program that is safest while allowing them to develop velocity.

So I wouldn’t allow too many “individual” programs.

Finally, I had a friend (a physicist) who said he could predict future injuries based on pitching mechanics. I’d certainly see if that were true first. How much stress is the pitching putting on his shoulder?

I suspect you can do it to a certain extent. I’d consult a guy like that before putting millions into any arm.

by Bernie6 on Feb 10, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions

Wasn't Alderson's mechanics changed for this very reason?

by titanlord91 on Feb 10, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions

I thought they were changed ...

because they were so ridiculously complex.

I didn’t think it had anything to do with injury risk.

by Bernie6 on Feb 10, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions

But you are right ...

you need more data. I suspect the teams have it.

by Bernie6 on Feb 10, 2011 9:18 AM EST up reply actions

Right

I’m not saying that the hypothesis put forth by the author isn’t true or factual. I’m just saying he writes in a way and puts forth facts that make it sound like a breakthrough that can’t be disputed. It’s just basic persuasive writing.

Nothing wrong with it, just take it with a grain of salt.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 10, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions

Different things work for different guys. Zito, for example, changed his long toss regiment when he went to SF, and expereienced poor results. He has since reverted to what he was doing when with the A’s, and credits that to his resurgence. Good article by Jonah Keri.

by Wizard of Woz on Feb 10, 2011 8:46 AM EST reply actions

nolan ryan used to toss footballs in-between starts back in the day

by white angus on Feb 10, 2011 9:26 AM EST reply actions

Using Rogers as an example is kind of disingenuous.

At the time he was drafted, he was seen as something of a surgery risk, due to some mechanical flaws. Those probably had more to do with his subsequent arm problems than his long toss program did.

by Vlad on Feb 10, 2011 9:32 AM EST reply actions

… and the second surgery was a clean up of scar tissue from the first.

by ol Pete on Feb 10, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions

Interesting read, I don't know much about pitching mechanics....

…but I know that after having arm troubles early in high school, long toss is what helped me regain my arm strength. Anytime I throw now, it is long toss.

by element1286 on Feb 10, 2011 10:08 AM EST reply actions

Good article on long toss

Here. Zito and others are in this program. Also touches on the 120-foot phenomenon.

by azibuck on Feb 10, 2011 10:44 AM EST reply actions

There isn't any reason why a player should have a chronically sore, weak, or injury prone arm. If the arm would get the same kind of attention that our hitting, defense or pitching gets than it too would have a chance to thrive on a daily basis.

this was from that jaegersports article… the reason why i dont agree with this is because throwing overhand is not a normal action for your arm/shoulder to take.

sometimes it doesnt matter how much you baby it, or how much you take care of it. sometimes, its going to break down.

long tossing has shown to be a good way at building arm strength but any kind of throwing “overhand” can cause damage.

by white angus on Feb 10, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions

I think that point is valid

But I also think some deliveries place much more pressure on elbows and shoulders.

As a result, they are more likely to break down.

I suspect that teams have computer models on this.

by Bernie6 on Feb 10, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions

The motion of throwing a baseball is unnatural and taxes the body

It really is pretty awkward if you think about it. It’s amazing so many people keep their arms healthy for so long, because it’s really not the most efficient and comfortable use of the the shoulder and elbow joints.
There are so many muscles used and so much strain on those two joints, that even the cleanest mechanics will result in soreness and inflammation. There are so many things that can go wrong when whipping your arm overhead as hard as you can and trying to slow it down on the follow through. All you can really do is strengthen and try to maximize the cleanliness of your mechanics, but you can never be guaranteed that it’ll stay healthy or strong just by the nature of the beast.

by OctaShields on Feb 10, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions

I agree with this and know this is redundant on my part but I

feel that there are many surgeries done to arms that the player has no pain but has lost a couple mph and the consensus is that the arm is dead.
Although 75% (just a guess) of young arms can be stretched out to major league level some 95 mph throwers are doomed to lose it because throwing overhand is so unnatural.
I suspect that if Alderson doesn’t get back to a consistent 90-91 mph and doesn’t drop off the face of the earth surgery will be tried, pain or no pain.

by Lomez969 on Feb 10, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions

One concern from here...

it seems that Alderson feels that the changes that were made by the Pirates actually made things worse…and going back to his HS coach seems to have straightened him out.

Is this going to get him crossways with the Pirates braintrust…because he’s not doing things “The Pirate Way”?

by Thunder on Feb 10, 2011 12:59 PM EST reply actions

I believe he got permission to do this if I'm not mistaken...

by Slick1 on Feb 10, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions

If I remember correctly

There was a quote from Alderson in an article a while back about how he had now accepted the changes and was embracing the way the Pirates did things after initially rejecting them. I can’t remember the link though.

by tsbulldawgs64 on Feb 10, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions

Actually

Found it

by tsbulldawgs64 on Feb 10, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions

So...where does the credit go??

His HS coaches…per the ESPN article…or the Pirates…per T-R article? Sounds like 2 completely different stories.

The important part, to fans, of course, is him getting the problem solved, and returning to his prospect status. We DO know of at least 1 pitcher that got messed up by the Pirates changing stuff that worked (Lincoln).

by Thunder on Feb 10, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions

When was this?

I don’t remember this. In fact, I thought his arm injury was possibly before he even started throwing for the pirates?

by titanlord91 on Feb 10, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions

He's talking about Kerrigan...

he screwed with Lincoln’s delivery and ended up throwning his mechanics out of whack which resulted in loss of velo and command. Huntington was quoted of saying something to the extent of we have to send Lincoln back to AAA to get his mechanics straightened out.

by Slick1 on Feb 10, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions

Alderson

I could care less whether he uses his old mechanics or the Pirates’ recommendations.

I just want him to throw more than 85 mph heat.

by Bernie6 on Feb 10, 2011 1:55 PM EST reply actions

Pushing

It seemed he had no idea he was pushing the ball (as eluded to at the end of the article)… I’m no scout/coach/player, but that would seem an obvious pick-up.

Wondering what Allie/Taillon use… 120 or long toss… or some combination.

by Cheap Beer on Feb 10, 2011 3:33 PM EST reply actions

Thanks for the heads up on the article

Good read. It’s definitely something to watch for as more people study it. Hopefully Alderson has actually discovered something to put him back on track.

by MarkInDallas on Feb 10, 2011 7:27 PM EST reply actions