Neal Huntington: Pirates Can't Afford 'Everyday Player' On Free Agent Market
by Thunder on Mar 1, 2011 11:16 AM EST
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PrintMany Pirates fans are waiting for the time when the front office spends the extra money to put the Pirates over the top. Guess what, folks? It won't happen. The Pirates cannot afford it. You don't believe me? Maybe you should believe Neal Huntington. A Joe Lemire column on SI.com has a revealing quote or two.
"We have to develop our own core players," general manager Neal Huntington said.
"We can't spend the amount of money it takes to bring in a top-of-the-rotation starter or a middle-of-the-lineup bat. Or, really, a middle-of-the-rotation starter or just an everyday player. We have to develop those from within."
The other option is that the Pirates' front office is shooting itself in the foot by opening its mouth. We knew that the Pirates weren't going to compete for an Albert Pujols or a CC Sabathia, but to hear that the front office cannot even afford to go after a No. 3 starter or an "everyday player" tells me it's time to turn up the heat. The Pirates will NEVER draw three million fans in a season with a 38,000-capacity ballpark. They would have to sell out EVERY game.
So it's either revamp the MLB economic system, or be resigned to the fact that it will take something just short of a miracle for the Pirates to contend consistently.
UPDATE by Charlie: This mostly just strikes me as a really inflammatory quote by Huntington, but not necessarily one that tells us anything new. As WTM suggests in the comments, if Huntington doesn't believe the Pirates can sign a mid-rotation starter or an "everyday player," that suggests they think very little of Kevin Correia (a middle- to back-of-the-rotation starter) and Lyle Overbay (an everyday player). And the Pirates apparently made a competitive offer to Jorge De La Rosa this offseason. So who knows what Huntington was thinking here. But look forward to hearing a lot about this quote in the next few days.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Not exactly an endorsement of Correia and Overbay.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Ties in with Coonelly’s quote pretty well, actually. Don’t have money now, so Coonelly hopes it comes later when players develop.
Another non-story, since people knew this already.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
by ryebr3ad on Mar 1, 2011 11:37 AM EST via mobile reply actions
gah
i think its just NH stressing the importance of building from within, and that’s all. He may have exaggerated it, but I doubt there’s much more to be read into this.
This front office just loves to talk don't they...
Man, how many times has NH shot himself in the foot by being too candid. I really enjoy his honesty but really man when it comes to criticizing players already on the team fucking dial it down a notch. I’m sure Overbay and Correia are thrilled to know they are a platoom player at 5th starter. Especially Overbay who was basically told the starting job was his to lose. And Charlie as you also point out, does that mean they made a serious run JDLR or not. I just don’t get these guys sometimes. And by these guys I mean Coonelly too because he has done his fair share of backing of comments as well.
No point
Do Huntington and Coonely have an objective in making all of these comments just 4 weeks away from the season opener? We’re not entering into a CBA year; we’re not entering into a free agent signing period. Why are they even running their mouths about this?
I don't think he had a point either...
I just think he was talking and saying what he truly believes. I’d love to get this guy out to a bar for a drink or two because if he talks like this sober imagine what secrets we could get out of him after he’s buzzing a bit!
If he left it at not signing a #1 starter or impact bat, it’s the indisputable truth — the Bucs aren’t going to sign a FA of that ilk. The second part of the quote doesn’t make much sense when read on its own. I suppose when viewed in the bigger picture it might… they need to develop the majority of their talent in-house and can’t afford to build the team on the FA market.
don’t see anything wrong here. the show is going to start and at this time you can’t find any everyday player in the market isn’t it? so don’t be overacted.
Here's the reality
Both Correia and Overbay are coming off down years. They could very well perform like a mid-rotation starter and middle order bat.
But…they are not being paid as such.
An average player is 2 WAR, which in today’s dollars would be $10M per year. Overbay is being paid as a 1 WAR player ($5M) and Correia is being paid $4M this year and next, so roughly .4 WAR per year.
So, Huntington isn’t telling these players anything they don’t already know. They couldn’t get contracts from any team that paid them like an average player. They already know they are not considered as such at the moment.
Now, did the Giants last year get above average production from Aubrey Huff, who they were paying like a below average player? Yes, they did. That happens all the time.
But, how often does a team in a market under 4M people sign an above average player and pay him as such?
In 2009, I did a study that year which showed that NO team in a market under 4M people had any player signed as a free agent who both performed as an above average player (over 2.5 WAR) and also was paid like one. And that included players signed at any time, not just before 2009.
by MarkInDallas on Mar 1, 2011 12:08 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I should say...
My study was limited to position players. My guess is it would be similarly rare to find pitchers as well.
by MarkInDallas on Mar 1, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Makes sense.....
Good post.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 1, 2011 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Good points...
Huntington paid fair market value for these guys but…
So, Huntington isn’t telling these players anything they don’t already know.
I don’t think Overbay would agree with you from the quotes I’ve read. Apparently Hurdle was very instrumental in recruiting him to Pittsburgh. That would seem to imply there were other offers on the table.
But, how often does a team in a market under 4M people sign an above average player and pay him as such?
Can’t think of many. Cin signed Rolen; turned out to be a great move. I think Tampa thought they were getting one when they signed Burrell. KC signed Meche which turned out to be a waste since they weren’t ready to compete. KC also signed Guillen to a decent contract. Cleveland brought in E. Murray, D. Martinez and O. Hershiser back the 90’s. They also signed Kerry Wood to close a couple of years ago which turned out to be a disaster. I think the teams expected all of these players to be at least average when they acquired them.
So, you think Overbay had a deal he could have taken for $10M this year, but because of Hurdle he chose $5M? Clearly no.
Rolen was acquired in trade, not as a free agent. They negotiated an extension for him which pays $8M/year during 2010-2012. So, he is actually being paid as an average player, not above average.
The fact that you can find many more examples of teams that paid for a good player but didn’t get one as opposed to those that got what they paid for shows just how difficult it is to succeed with that strategy.
I'm not saying Overbay...
was offered more from other teams. I’m saying he reportedly had other offers on the table. I pretty much expected they would be less than Pittsburgh. What I am saying is that it is possible that he had other options on the table in which he could have been the starter.
Rolen was acquired in trade, not as a free agent. They negotiated an extension for him which pays $8M/year during 2010-2012. So, he is actually being paid as an average player, not above average.
I thought the salary was more your point than the actual method of acquisition; I agree that the Rolen extension is pretty favorable to the club.
The fact that you can find many more examples of teams that paid for a good player but didn’t get one as opposed to those that got what they paid for shows just how difficult it is to succeed with that strategy.
Make no mistake I completely agree that you cannot build through free agency. I think you’ve seen me post here enough to know that and know I have been a supporter of the Huntington plan. I am referring to “complimentary pieces.” I get the impression that NH doesn’t feel we can go out and get a mid rotation starter or league average every day player. My question is did Huntington view JDLR has a back end guy or did the reality of that negotiation reinforce what he is saying now because they kind of conflict.
I do think both Overbay and Correia could have chosen other teams to start on this year.
They are both legitimate starting options for some teams. So, obviously, Huntington must not be talking about acquiring starters who are bounce back candidates. He must be referring to finding core starters through free agency and being paid as such.
I take it to mean that as well...
I just think NH could choose his words a little more carefully when talking about players on the roster. That’s all.
And you are correct...
I did say signed Rolen and I was incorrect. The extension does support what you are saying.
I really doubt ...
Overbay had anything close to $5 million.
I don’t care how much he liked Hurdle. If he had $4 million from a contender, he would have gone there.
And the Reds paid a lot in a trade to get Rolen.
i just think its more hate aimed at NH and FC and BN...
yet any other ownership group that would be in charge of the pirates would pretty much run it exactly the same way.
I don't think this is hate...
I think this is well deserved. This is just like NH coming out and saying that Wilson had a good glove but below league average bat. Yeah this may be something a lot of people are aware of but saying it in public sucks. You know it’s one thing for your wive to think your a shitty lover it’s another thing for her to write about you being a shitty lover on her Facebook wall. Man that sucked!!!
it’s one thing for your wive to think your a shitty lover it’s another thing for her to write about you being a shitty lover on her Facebook wall
:-o !!!! Also, were you genuinely confused between the use of singular and plural for wife/wives? :P
So sexting is pretty much a worse case scenario for you
by Wizard of Woz on Mar 1, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Man talking about great lovers....
my wife is the best……..if you don’t believe me just ask anybody!
by oldfrothingslosh on Mar 1, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Sank you! I Vill be here all ze veek!
During sex my wife always wants to talk to me. Just the other night she called me from a hotel.
One night I went to the bar to have a few drinks. The bartender asked me, “What’ll you have?” I said, “Surprise me.” He showed me a naked picture of my wife.
One day as I came home early from work, I saw a guy jogging naked. I said to the guy, “Hey buddy…why are you doing that for?” He said, “Because you came home early.”
Last night my wife met me at the front door. She was wearing a sexy negligee. The only trouble was, she was coming home.
My wife only has sex with me for a purpose. Last night she used me to time an egg.
One time I went to a hotel. I asked the bellhop to handle my bag. He felt up my wife!
One night I came home. I figured, let my wife come on. I’ll play it cool. Let her make the first move. She went to Florida.
My wife and I were happy for twenty years. Then we met.
I tell ya, I don’t get no respect … Last week, my wife told me that she was going to cut me down to twice a month. But I thought about it, and I figured that it wasn’t too bad. I know a couple of guys that she cut out completely
The other day, I got back from a business trip. I got in a cab and said to the driver, “Hey! Take me to where the action is!” So ya know where he took me? He took me to my house!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Mar 1, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
This was a stupid thing to say
I think too much has been made of Coonelly’s recent comments on Pirates Prospects about attendance needing to increase. Taken with any context whatsoever his meaning is clear (though he could’ve chosen his words better).
This quote from Huntington, however, offers no benefit (at best it looks like whining) while disheartening the fan base and simultaneously disparaging your squad. There are too many unfavorable implications to the quote to discuss. A resulting uproar among the general public is understandable in this case.
While I’ve been fully on board with the approach taken since the current management team came aboard, I’ve maintained my doubts about ownership’s ability to make the financial commitment necessary to win. This statement only furthers those concerns.
Baseball needs to be fixed, but nobody is holding their breath on that. As such, I think it is entirely reasonable for people to further question the appropriateness of Nutting’s ownership. I’m not predicting anything, but NH could really come to regret that statement.
That’s my initial reaction anyway.
Good day.
Smizik and Cook are salivating right now.
by BadAndy on Mar 1, 2011 12:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I’m all geared up to not read their columns!
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Mar 1, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
A lot of people on here saying it was a stupid thing to say.
I’m sorry, I don’t think honesty is stupid. I’m very glad we have a GM and President that tell it like it is. Why should it be necessary to lie to Pirate fans? What purpose does that serve? How about these guys just be honest and eventually the public will be educated and get behind them when the Pirates start winning again?
I’m telling you, here in Dallas it was an amazing turnaround of opinion when the fans realized that the way to create good teams was through the minor league system. Instead of people calling for a name player to be signed from outside, people were calling for X player in minors to be given a chance.
and look at how many of the current rangers came up through their system...
even their list of failed prospects is impressive.
We will have to agree to disagree...
I don’t think giving your players a reality check through the media is the best way to motivate them.
It surely wasn't intended to motivate them.....
It was intended to be honest about our financial situation and our strategy going forward.
I’m with Dallas – I prefer to be told the truth and spoken to as an informed fan. If NH was avoiding questions and outright lying to the public about the situation, he would be getting criticized by some of the same people who are now on his case. You can’t win in that position – GM of the Pirates – so I presume he intends on simply telling the truth.
I applaud that….
If Smizik and Cook and Collier are getting hard, fine. No one (with any sense) listens to a word they say – not because they are assholes (which they are) but rather because they are uninformed assholes. The latter is much, much worse.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 1, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
You can still tell the truth...
without being too candid. He could use a little more tact when he is talking about the players on his team. I’m 100% sure that you as a fan appreciate his candor; I’m just not so sure the players do. There is a lot of room between being tactful and outright lying to the fans wouldn’t you agree? He could simply say we will never be big players in free agency and we are always going to have to grow our own talent. That pretty much says the same thing and does not call Overbay a platoon player or Correia a 5th starter.
I don't think he was referring to Overbay as a Platoon/nor Correia a 5th Starter
As Dallas pointed out, one is being paid a value of a 1 WAR, the other – slightly less than 1 WAR. These aren’t Jayson Werth-type signings (everday guys that will be an impact bat) or Cliff Lee signings (top-of-the-rotations starters) that will become your anchor and aces of the staff. These guys are useful parts, at a pretty good value for our finances, that will aid and fit nicely into our core players team for a year or two. I presume NH is discussing the ability to get the Overbays/Correias while not being able to get the Werths/Lees (to say nothing about whether we should be going after them – which, imo, we should not).
I do agree his wording here (as it relates to mid-rotation and everyday players) is different from the 100 interviews he has given in the past and these new statements could be interpreted the way you are choosing to interpret them. I see that.
However, I will judge his statements in their entirety…..and the overwhelming sentiment consistently expressed by this FO is that we will pay the money for complementary players (perhaps in between Correia and Lee or Overbay and Werth) when the time is right. Today’s comments haven’t shaken my belief in the aforementioned being true.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 1, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
The big issue isn't about the veracity of what NH said...
it is about the new information: the team cannot afford to sign an average everyday player or starting pitcher.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but until now the issue wasn’t so much whether the team could afford such a signing but whether it made sense for baseball purposes. The overwhelming majority of regulars at Bucs Dugout (myself included) have generally agreed that such an acquisition would be counter productive or of nominal baseball value. That, however, is changing as the pedigreed prospects are reaching the big leagues. Now the team is saying that it cannot afford to sign ordinary complementary pieces. That is a problem.
All of that said, I’m not sure where NH is coming from. Surely themoneys pent on Correia, Diaz and Overbay when combined would have been enough for such a more impactful signing. Bottom line, what he said was not only stupid and is cause for legitimate consternation and doubt among the fans regarding the viability of current ownership, but I’m not sure that it is accurate.
Good day.
i agree with what you are saying
but again, i think NH and co are just bad at this PR thing, and that’s not the intent of what NH wanted to say. He prolly wanted to re-emphasize that the farm is important, and ended up with this one.
Timing is everything
I’m not in favor of the front office lying, Mark (though they’ve done some of that, too). But the timing sucks. What is the point in bringing this up now, just four weeks from the opener? It isn’t relevant in any way, and only serves to (possibly) bring down the fan base or disparage your players.
If a specific question was asked of him: when will you sign more players? Then a guy in his position should be able to skillfully dodge the question. Or just answer part of it.
If he’s asked that question in, say, November, then fine … answer it like he did. If he’s asked that question in the context of a collective bargaining negotiation story, then fine.
But Lemire ostensibly was interviewing him on the team’s prospects for 2011. Really doesn’t seem like there was any reason to take the interview where he took it.
Maybe Neal and Frank are big trolls, and just love to say things to stir the pot. I mean, if I were in that position, I would feed the media idiots everything to appease their blessed little hearts.
What has media speculation ever done for anyone, besides paint people as worse off than they actually are?
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Regardless...
the media has been around longer than Hutington and it’s not going to change. So what’s more likely, the media changing to appease Huntingon or Huntington being more careful with what he says? It’s comical to me when he says shit like this than blames the media for killing Capps’ trade value!
Once again, I don't see it as disparaging any of the players.
I just think he is talking about impact starting players. "Core" players, if you will. Complementary players can always be signed. That’s what Overbay is this year after all. If he were talking about that kind of player, why would he say the PIrates can’t sign them if they just did?
Obviously, there is a disparity in the literal interpretation of the words "everyday player" and reality. Overbay has always been an everyday player and will be one with Pittsburgh (at least until he is platooned with Pearce). So, literally, Overbay is an everyday player.
So, either Huntington just signed a player to be a everyday player that he doesn’t think can do the job (doubtful), or he is talking about "core" everyday players. The kind you sign to multiyear deals and expect to be a solid part of the team for years to come.
The reality of the Pirates‘ situation right now is that they just can’t sign those types of players in free agency.
This has been my point this entire thread, Dallas....
Either NH completely contradicted 3 years of statements and his own numerous signings (such as Overbay and Correia) or people are misinterpreting what he means by everyday players.
It is a stretch to believe the former in lieu of the latter.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 1, 2011 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
I can't tell what the Pirate's angle is on these recent comments.
What are they trying to gain? They won’t convince anyone they aren’t cheap by making comments. They will convince people by winning, paying their players, and winning some more. Half of Pittsburgh legitimately thinks Bob Nutting “steals” millions upon millions each year, and that Mark Cuban is a savior. It does no good to come out and say stuff like this. It just gets the masses riled up over something they don’t understand. And it makes the Pirates an easy target to snipe at by the national media.
As far as the messengers, I don’t dislike FC, but I can never tell if he is extremely confident or a snake oil salesmen when he makes some comments. Maybe it is the lawyer speak in him, but watching his body language he either looks deliriously happy or like someone trying to sell vacation rentals.
With NH it seems like everything is said for a purpose. He sugarcoats a lot, but I always feel like he is being straight up with the general message he is conveying.
Of course, I know neither man, but just the way I feel when seeing/hearing them speak.
Also, the fact that they are echoing similar statements probably means that this is truly “how it is.” And if this is the truth, I doubt most educated Pirates fans thought much differently.
We knew this was pretty much their position.
Nothing new here…
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 1, 2011 1:07 PM EST via mobile reply actions
You mean...
other than the fact it states that the Pirates won’t go out and get players on the market when the time comes that one player could put them over the top.
Granted, that wouldn’t happen this year anyway. But it’s the first time that they have acknowledged that acquiring even a middle of the road player will be beyond their their financial means. In other words…they’ve been talking out the side of their mouths about spending the money when the time comes.
I thought they were just talking about this year. The big problem now is that most middle-tier guys don’t want to come here. De La Rosa, Pavano, Lee, Berkman didn’t want to play here even though we showed interest. Meanwhile, the Rays have built a good reputation, and they can bring in a Damon and a Manny.
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 1, 2011 1:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
read the whole article...
I don’t see NH said “the Pirates can’t afford ‘everyday player’ on free agent market”, why does it lead you to this conclusion?
I rewrote the headline when I put this on the font page. It’s a restatement of part of the quote Thunder used.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 1, 2011 1:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Nowhere does it say that they aren't going to spend the money when it is worth it......
I can see Thunder still mistakenly holds the point of view that the only way to win is spend money.
At least that explains why you are upset at the FO, a group that obviously knows otherwise.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 1, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
No…it’s not a mistake.
What is a mistake…is to assume that the Pirates FO will be able to fill EVERY position with an average or above average player WITHOUT going outside the system. There are 29 other teams looking for above average players. Eventually, you are going to need to acquire a piece from outside. If the financial restraints indicated by the statement NH made has any validity, then the Pirates will not be able to go out and get that piece. That doesn’t mean that the FO should throw money at everyone.
If you would like to believe every statement that the Pirates Front Office makes is gospel, and that they have every answer, be my guest. Even though results have shown that they don’t have all the answers.
is to assume that the Pirates FO will be able to fill EVERY position with an average or above average player WITHOUT going outside the system
other than the yanks and sox, not many teams can do this either
The FO doesn't think they can totally fill positions from inside the system....
No FO would think that. What they do believe, and which is correct, is that for teams in our financial situation, the core of the team must be developed through the minors and come from our system. The zero-3 players, as well as the arbitration-eligible players, have to be the best players on our team because we can’t afford to go out and sign other team’s best players because we are priced out of the market. That is what they are saying.
Every statement that NH and this FO has made (arguably until today’s inartful language) has indicated that they will put the necessary expenses in to building a team (including via free agency and trades) that will push our ‘core’ over the top at the right time. Does that mean they are going to get Cliff Lee? No, but it means they may get someone like Matt Garza or another decent #2-#3 Pitcher that will take us over the top.
You are choosing to harp on this new language in spite of the other.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 1, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
After the current statement…it means that they WILL NOT get someone like a Matt Garza on the market. It means they will get a Kevin Correia or Zach Duke.
What it really means
Is that in the Pirates’ current financial situation, ie. low attendance caused by poor teams, no free agent who would be better than Overbay or Correia will sign with the Pirates for the dollars they can afford to pay them.
Once that situation changes, then things can change. Once the Pirates are fielding competitive teams and knocking on the door of the division, then free agents will find the Pirates a more attractive option, and the Pirates will not have to pay an extreme premium to obtain them.
However, the Pirates will never be able to afford to pay a multiyear deal like Werth or Beltre got. They could, however, make a trade to get someone like Greinke.
What to take from these quotes
I think many people fail to realize/acknowledge that the front office’s main emphasis on making a better team is through development of its own players. Why do we keep analyzing these so called negative parts, like lack of signing middling free agents, and ignore the important message?
Its plain and simple the Front Office is finally implementing a plan that can sustain success for a long period of time in a small market. The Pirates are now bigger players in the two areas (international free agents and the Draft) that matter the most for running a small market club. I understand it is frustrating that we don’t have a good MLB team but the Front Office is on the right path. As far as I am concerned, I could care less about what they say as long as they promise to continue to develop from within. Follow the Rays, Twins and Brewers.
Develop from within...
is a good idea…IF you are having well rounded drafts. When you draft 8,000 pitchers and 6 position players (yes, just a bit of an exaggeration)…you are going to be a little short on the position player side. And with the exception of possibly Sanchez, there isn’t much coming anytime soon on the position player side. And by the time the pitchers get here, they are going to have to have done something positive about a few of the position players that are already here.
you grow the arms, buy the bats
what makes you think the FO wont move any of these young and HOPEFUL phenoms for some impact bats in the future?
I don't see why they are mutually exclusive
Particularly with the burnout rate of pitchers.
Another month till the season begins, then the focus will finally be off the OUTRAGEOUS! quotes.
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 1, 2011 2:13 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I am outraged at your ridicule.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Mar 1, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
You’re no fun.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Mar 1, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
To jest śmiesznie skandaliczne
In the mother language
by Wizard of Woz on Mar 2, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
On the positive side . . .
Maybe this means Overbay won’t be playing every day.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Yeah
There are 2-3 days per month without a game…
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 1, 2011 2:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Too bad he won't be seeing many lefties...
because Hunitngton has already said he isn’t an every day player.
Well, shit. God for Neal, telling it like it is.
That’s how I see it, anyway.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
I know.
It’s like the end of the world and stuff.
I read that quote and decided that I would resupply my bunker.
Not really...
I didn’t the Bucs wouldn’t be able to acquire everday players. That’s definitely news to me. I assumed all along the complimentary pieces would be everyday players.
That is...
I thought the Bucs would be able to acquire at least one every day player as needed, as a complimentary piece, when they were ready to contend. I didn’t, and don’t, expect a major signing but I didn’t think signing a league average starter was out of range either. Hopefully this is a semantics thing.
All of his other interviews would point to it being a 'semantics thing'.....
Yet, you and many others, are choosing to harp on this rather than the overwhelming amount of stories to the contrary.
I am sure someone can do the research, whether it be google search or whatever, that will show many, many, many quotes that says exactly what you think should happen.
Much ado about nothing. If NH has decided that he won’t complement the team with pieces when it is worth it, I will be the first to disagree and say so. But, that isn’t his plan, as enunciated by him.
Plus, by signing Overbay and Correia, he is in effect, contradicting his own statements today – if you are of the belief that Overbay and Correia are ‘everyday’ and middle-of the rotation, respectively. So, by your own argument, his words are not consistent with everything he has said in the past, nor are they consistent with his actions this past offseason.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 1, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
I certainly don’t consider Correia a middle of the rotation pitcher. And I wouldn’t consider Overbay a league average 1B. So Neal hasn’t contradicted anything yet.
Statistics would not support your conclusion
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 1, 2011 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
Actually...they wouldn't support yours.
An average 1B would have had an OPS around .790 last season. Overbay only missed that by about 30 points. And he has reached that level once in the last 4 years. The only offensive stat he’s league average in is doubles.
When a middle of the rotation pitcher has a 4.66 ERA and a 1.440 WHIP…it means he pitches for the Rockies. And those are Correia’s career numbers…as a starter…in Pac Bell and Petco…two pitchers parks.
Check their WAR, Thunder
And, by you showing off your stats knowledge by citing ERA and WHIP as your two benchmarks for judging a pitcher, not to mention by only listing his latest year, you’ve proven my point already.
What about Overbay’s year two years ago? What about Correia’s year two years ago?
Stats are a tough thing to use as misleading information when I have just as much access to them as you do.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 2, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
As you may have noticed…or maybe not. Overbay has had one good year of the last 4…the season you mention two years ago. Because I didn’t specify the year…that makes me misleading…even though his 2007…2008 and 2010 seasons sucked.
And…because I mentioned his career numbers…and didn’t specify his 2009 numbers…again, I’m misleading, although his 2008 and 2010 numbers sucked.
You want to compare numbers…OK…let’s look at WAR for the last 3 seasons. We’ll compare Correia…to the guy he replaced…Zach Duke. We’ll use baseball reference.com
2008… Correia -1.4….Duke +0.2
2009… Correia +1.7…Duke +2.4
2010… Correia -1.8…Duke -0.6
Fangraphs has Duke at 2.0…2.5 and 0.4 for the last 3 seasons. Correia clocks in at +0.6…2.5 and +0.1. Correia can’t even out-perform Zach Duke.
And that’s with Correia performing in much better pitching parks than Duke. Care to try again??
Fangraphs has Overbay at 2.0…2.4 and 1.5…Baseball-reference has him at +1.6…1.3…and +0.7 the last 3 seasons. Just as an aside…a league average player is considered to be 2 wins above replacement…also known as WAR. One (Fangraphs) says he’s right at league average over the last 3 season…an average of 1.97. B-R has him below league average at +1.2.
Again…shall we try again??
I agree OVerbay isn't a league average 1B, but I wouldn't say his 2008 sucked.
.342 wOBA is a bit below average for a 1B, but it’s not like he was terrible that year.
He got hurt in 2007 with a hand injury, and struggled to regain form after that. He was better in 2008, then pretty good in 2009. He was horrendous for the first 2 months of 2010, then was pretty good for the last 4 months, hitting .267/.355/.483 after May 28.
Is Overbay a league average 1B? No, so I’m agreeing with you there. But I would say his $5M salary this year should not be wasted as Aki’s was last year. I think they’ll get 1+ WAR from him this year.
by MarkInDallas on Mar 3, 2011 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough.
I’m not choosing to harp on anything. My larger point is Huntington needs to choose his words more carefully. I’m still more prone to lean in the direction you are referrring but I do find his comments about an “every day player” to be very curious. It would be nice to have a follow up question to that comment.
Plus, by signing Overbay and Correia, he is in effect, contradicting his own statements today – if you are of the belief that Overbay and Correia are ‘everyday’ and middle-of the rotation, respectively. So, by your own argument, his words are not consistent with everything he has said in the past, nor are they consistent with his actions this past offseason.
I guess I have two issues to clarify:
1) Huntington has a knack, and history, for being for candid when speaking about his players to the media. My first issue isn’t whether or not I think Correia is a mid rotation starter or Overbay is an everyday player; it;s that I’m sure that “they” believe they are. Huntington’s commenst, if taken literally by those two players, could be offensive. I think Huntington needs to use a little more tact when talking about players currently in the organization.
2) I tend to agree that this is a semantics issue but I am a little curious with the “every day” player comment. I would like a chance to ask him exactly what he means when talking about an every day player. I suppose you are correct in that every day player is somewhere between Overbay and Prince Fielder. I would hate to think though that Overbay and Correia are what we can expect as complimentary type pieces.
Most of that sounds about right, Slick....
While I am probably less sensitive to the players ‘feelings’, I think there is always room for improvement in handling the media and discussing some things via the media. I think NH would agree with that.
But, in the larger picture, I hope he retains his candidness as we move forward. I think he could really be entertaining when we eventually get this thing going, as some of his blunt criticism could be morphed into blunt ‘kick their asses, men’ type-of-GM-motivation. I appreciate candor, and, since I am not a player, I am probably less sympathetic to their perspective (considering they are making dickloads of money, that also explains it some).
Anyways, I think he probably misspoke today or at least said it in a manner that was prone to misinterpretation…..but I don’t think his approach, the right one in my eyes of building around the core players (who would be developed by us) with complementary pieces (to be acquired through trade/FA) to be that last ingredient for a championship team, has changed in the least. Both his previous statements and his actions are evidence of the same.
One other thing: If some of our arms eventually pan out – such as Taillon, ZVR, Owens, Morris, Allie, Heredia, etc – guys like Kevin Correia look a lot better as a somplimentary piece. Say Taillon reaches his ceiling as true ace; Allie becomes a strike-out king; and Owens becomes a feared LH presence, a guy like Correia being acquired as a #5 starter (like a Westbrook for the Cardinals-type acquisition) would be a good addition, not something for some to scorn at. Likewise, if a dependable guy like Overbay (at least in my eyes) was brought on as a LH platoon to be teamed with an above-average RH who mashes lefty, that signing looks a lot better.
I just don’t think we are at that point yet which makes Correia and Overbay underwhelming to a lot of people, mainly due to the realization that, with this team at this time, these two aren’t good enough to put us anywhere near the top. That impression changes in a few years if some guys work out…
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 1, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
Uh...
I think I’m missing some sarcasm here but just in case I’m not…
No.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Actually it is
we pay our guys and then go out and get mid-level FA to supplement what is already on the team.
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." Martin Luther King Jr.
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
Noooo
I don’t want to have to read about these comments for weeks now.
This is going to further the Red Sox and Yankees arguments that they are sick of handing money to Nutting for him to put in his pockets. I don’t know any rational person who would argue with them about it. Pirate ownership is pocketing the cash from the Yankees and laughing all the way to the bank. Comments like these from NH are going to get the Pirates eliminated from the MLB with the Royals VERY soon.
Blah...
unless the Yankees only want the MLB to have about 8 teams in it they need STFU about revenue sharing. Major League Baseball is the product not the Yankees. One of the reasons revenue sharing exists in the first place is because the Yankees almost single handedly drove up the market for player salaries to the point where only large markets can afford to be players in free agency or retain their own stars.
On this I agree with Slick
I’ve never understood why the small and medium markets tolerate the imbalance in revenues.
What are the Yankees and Red Sox going to do if the small and medium markets stick together and say we are not signing off on a CBA until local TV revenue is shared fairly?
Nothing. They can’t play each other every game. As much as they think they are the sport, they are not.
Unfortunately, the disgusting alliance between the agents and the large markets has led to a divide and conquer every CBA negotiation.
Yeah....
Steinbrenner said baseball’s revenue sharing and luxury tax programs need changes, and that Selig is open to the idea. Steinbrenner said he doesn’t know what the final figure is, but expects the Yankees’ 2010 payments for the two to total about $130 million.
“We’ve got to do a little something about that, and I know Bud wants to correct it in some way,” Steinbrenner said in February. “Obviously, we’re very much allies with the Red Sox and the Mets, the Dodgers, the Cubs, whoever in that area.”
“At some point, if you don’t want to worry about teams in minor markets, don’t put teams in minor markets, or don’t leave teams in minor markets if they’re truly minor,” Steinbrenner said. “Socialism, communism, whatever you want to call it, is never the answer.”
So yeah, we need only about 10 teams in Major League Baseball and the rest can be minor league teams. Problem solved.
Steinbrenner ...
is truly a moron.
That’s why the NFL is struggling so much. Socialistic revenue sharing.
Revenue sharing hasn’t done anything to benefit the small markets in those leagues, say GB and Pittsburgh.
And where are all these untapped major markets? Put a few more teams in NYC and I wonder if his opinion may change.
No problem
I enjoyed your post.
I’d love in NYC had four teams.
Then, all of a sudden, the Yankees would have to compete like nearly every other market.
Steinbrenner is a greedy douchebag...
but all men with money want more money so I can’t fault him for that. But to suggest that we get rid of minor markets is fucking ridiculous. And the socialism reference is crazy, besides it’s worked out fine so far for the NFL (though not the best time to bring this up probably). If the MLB was serious about fixing this problem they won’t get rid of minor markets; they will expand MLB and add two more teams to New York. That would be a good place to start.
Yeah...
“Minor Markets”? Good bye Pittsburgh Pirates, you’ve been around since 1882, but you’re a minor market and Steinbrenner says you gotta go! By default, the Yankees are now the 1960 World Series champions.
I would love to hear these reporters start hammering Hank on whether he would allow a free market to exist in creating as many NY teams as the market would allow.
by MarkInDallas on Mar 3, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Did you read my comment about how rare it is for any team in a below 4M market size to sign those kinds of players?
by MarkInDallas on Mar 2, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
I'm old enough.....
to remember what a great,competitive franchise this was in the 60’s ,70’s, late 80’s and early 90’s. To see how they operate now, and how they consistently prevaricate and try to string along and bullshit their fans is both pathetic and disgusting.
Unless there are some drastic changes in the next CBA, the Pirates will never be good,or even competitive with any cosistency, ever again. Count on it.
Let’s be honest,supporting the Pirates right now is an exercise in futility, with massive amounts of hot air being expended on speculatiing about a franchise that has not kept faith with it’s fans for many years, and isn’t terribly likely to do so now.
I suppose that since I do remember how much fun it was to follow and root for the Pirates in the long past………..I cling to some sliver of hope that they will prove me wrong and become truly competitive again at SOME point in the future. Call it a forlorn hope…..
You must not follow any other team in all of baseball.....
Which is fine, but grossly ignorant of what constitutes a good grasp on finances/strategy for smaller-market teams.
Having money and spending money helps withstand mistakes in allocation of funds. But, having money and spending money is not the reason why the Twins have been good for a decade, why the A’s were good for 80% of the 90’s, why the Rays have been good for the last three years in the toughest division and baseball……..nor does it explain why the Mets have been terrible for the last 4-5 years, despite ‘superstars’ and a huge budget, why the Cubs have been bad since 2003, why the Dodgers traded for Dotel and gave us Lambo/MacDonald.
Good decisions can be made without endless supply of funds. Bad decisions can be made with enough money to buy a small country.
Money, at least in baseball, isn’t everything. It surely helps, but the Pirates ‘futility’, to use your words, has been mainly the result of horrible decisions, not because they don’t possess a $100 million dollar payroll.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 2, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
The A's are a good favorite AL team for a Pirates' fan.
The Pirates, on the other hand, are a frustrating favorite NL team for an A’s fan :)
"Hi, SBN readers! Go away."-dm
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 2, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
Salary isn't everything
But when I studied it, salary accounts for half the variance in team wins.
That sounds about right.
Large market teams have an enormous margin of error. They can deal with bad contracts, injured players.
The Rays cannot.
As I stated in my post....
The ability to absorb bad contracts is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, advantage of a high payroll.
However, smart decisions, prudent allocation of expenses, reliance/adhesion to a particular philosophy is more important. The Pirates need more of the latter before they can complain about the lack of the former…..
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 2, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Don't disagree
that’s where the other 50 percent of the variance in the regression analysis showed.
What Huntington's statement means to me
is that the club would be unwilling to risk their profits to win, like the Rays did. The Rays were about even in 2008 and 2009, and lost money in 2010, because they were willing to sacrifice profit in order to maximize a victory window with a homegrown club.
I get the impression that if the Pirates ever built up a good core of players again, they’d just go back to the old model of getting rid of them come arbitration time, rather than taking the plunge and being willing to break even and/or lose a little bit of money in order to maximize a contention window.
Seems like the same old McClatchy-era BS to me, except coming out of the GM’s mouth in order to help Nutting save face. Too bad the Pirates can’t be owned/operated by someone who takes his profits while rebuilding and spends some of them while contending, like the A’s have been doing for well over a decade.
"Hi, SBN readers! Go away."-dm
FIRE these 2 clowns & look @ the class organizations in MLB & overpay to get some of their execs to come fix this team…. i.e. Twins, Yanks, Red Sox,
their negativity & retarded remarks make it even harder to sell PNC Park , Pittsburgh to anyone FA wise not past there primes to come here….
Dude...
let’s play a game. From 1970 to present, name the biggest free agent to be acquired by the Pirates while still in his prime. After you’re done thinking about it, or looking it up, you’ll realize that Huntington is not the reason FA’s, who are in their prime, don’t want to come to Pittsburgh.
How about
naming all the above average free agents by ANY team in ANY market under 4M people in the last 10 years? I would like to see that list. I’ll bet it’s pretty darn small.
That’s like telling your local Best Buy that they should pony up and hire Bill Gates to run them.
their negativity & retarded remarks make it even harder to sell PNC Park , Pittsburgh to anyone FA wise not past there primes to come here….
Wow.
by Wizard of Woz on Mar 2, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Coonely just stated what NH has been saying for 3 years.....
In a chat, he said that NH was referring to building through our core, acquiring FA’s on the margins to supplement that core.
I think NH’s words were misinterpreted and/or stated inartfully.
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on Mar 2, 2011 4:51 PM EST reply actions
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