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Larry Silverman, Pirates General Counsel, Reveals Details Of Ross Ohlendorf's Arbitration

Today, Larry Silverman visited the WVU College of Law, which I attend, and gave a presentation on the baseball arbitration process, specifically using Ross Ohlendorf's arbitration case as an example.  Below are a few notes on what I learned.

  • In arbitration, a common misconception is that statistics are the major deciding factor between which number the arbitration panel picks.  That, according to Mr. Silverman, is incorrect.  The major factor used to determine a player's salary is comparable players.  While obviously statistics determine which players are comparable, it is largely dependent upon historical precedent, similar to the everyday legal system.  Statistics are only used to determine comparable players, not in a vacuum to determine a number.
  • The Pirates cited five comparable players for Ohlendorf: Anibal Sanchez, Kyle Davies, Josh Johnson, Francisco Liriano, and Edison Volquez. 
  • In citing those players the Pirates focused the most on comparing one major statistic, IP/G.  Wins were not a large issue, because, according to Mr. Silverman, even arbitration panels have begun to recognize the problems with the win statistic.
  • On his side, Ohlendorf largely argued that (and I didn't know this until he pointed it out, had anyone done research on this?) he had gotten the lowest run support/9 innings for the innings Ross Ohlendorf was in the game (since those stats have been complied) in '10.
  • According to Mr. Silverman, he believes the panel picked Ohlendorf's number (the panels never give their reasoning for their decision) based upon the comparison to Edison Volquez.  Interestingly, he believes it was because of Volquez's drug suspension, calling into question his character, which was contrasted to Ohlendorf's character highlighted by him interning at the White House.  Essentially, he said the decision may (I emphasize may, because no one knows; this is only Mr. Silverman's theory) have had more to do with the person Ross Ohlendorf and less about the player Ross Ohlendorf.
  • Mr. Silverman believes (and he is an avid baseball fan and understands advanced sabermetrics, etc.) that despite the lack of advanced baseball knowledge a arbitrator typically possesses, that a professional arbitrator (panel members are generally commercial labor judges, since technically this is a labor issue tied to the CBA) would be better than a more knowledgeable baseball person with a lack of legal training.  In addition, as part of my inference, it seemed it was legally necessarily this way because of the issues I outlined above.  He likened it to a judge taking a case on intellectual property who did not know the difference between a copyright and a trademark, which does happen.  The difference is that in that case, expert testimony is allowed, and arbitration this does not exist, a legitimate flaw.  He went on to say that obviously the best-case scenario would be a legal expert who also was well-versed in baseball, especially sabremetrics.

Additional notes not concerning arbitration:

  • Mr. Silverman was asked about the general direction of the team (he is a legitimate Pirates fan and not just an employee - born and raised in Pittsburgh, etc.).  He said that he's frustrated as any fan but that he legitimately believes the talent is in the major leagues and minor leagues (he mentioned the lack of pitching depth on the major league squad that hopefully will be fixed by way of the depth of the pitching in the minor leagues) is there for the Pirates to contend.  However, he did express concerns that the positional talent would be gone before the pitching talent could be assembled.
  • Finally, maybe offering hope to his concern (and all of ours) he said (and I can't get into specifics due to confidentiality) that the Pirates are actively trying to sign players through their free agency years as a general plan.  He did mention the realistic goal was only a one to two years of free agency, hopefully in the form of club options, so that may dampen any hopes of signing Andrew McCutchen for the next 10 years, but it is good news nonetheless.

Edited : I Fixed the part about Ross Ohlendorf's run support to reflect the correct statistic (I believe),

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

Comment 39 comments  |  24 recs  | 

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Great stuff

It’s always nice to hear exactly how certain processes go in practice. We read a lot about players facing off in arbitration against the team and most people really don’t understand all that entails. This is interesting.

by OctaShields on Mar 10, 2011 12:01 PM EST reply actions  

Haha

3 rec’s in 20 minutes. I win.

But seriously, another thing he mentioned that has been outlined on this blog before of how impersonal the process is. Essentially, the team is tearing down and degrading their player as much as possible, and then after the arbitration they have to deal with a potential fallout. Mr. Silverman said he had went to the actual arbitration hearing 3 times (Jeff King, Jack Wilson, and Ross) and had never had a real issue. He actually gave credit to the agents for informing their clients that essentially he (Mr. Silverman) was simply doing his job and it isn’t personal.

The professor in the class (I’m not actually in the class but attended the discussion) mentioned how when he had represented players in the NFL that it would have been a major issue in his eyes, making baseball very unique.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 10, 2011 12:16 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

3 rec’s in 20 minutes.

Here, have another.

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.

by WTM on Mar 10, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

Very, VERY interesting commentary — in MANY of the arbitration articles I have read, the authors have made it a point to say the team’s try to NOT bash the player much…as it could have a negative impact on the hearing.

Great to hear it from someone in the know!

Great post!

by insane_sanity on Mar 10, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Dude

they bashed the crap out of him.

One of the pages (and probably more, but from what I saw) was based solely upon how the Pirates were worse with Ross Ohlendorf on the field, citing record while he was on the DL vs. record while he was active, and also citing a myriad of offensive and defensive stats.

Mr. Silverman admitted many of those things weren’t completely in his control, but it literally said something close to “The Pirates were worse when Ross Ohlendorf was active.”

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 10, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Sounds like that might be why Ross won the arb. If he’s so worthless, why are we at this hearing.

by Seven_Patch on Mar 11, 2011 9:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

By the way, great article!

by Seven_Patch on Mar 11, 2011 9:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Good post

This is one of the more interesting articles I’ve read in a while.

And I learned a lot.

by Bernie6 on Mar 10, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

"recommended"

Just a little way for folks to give props to each other, and let other readers know which posts are especially worthy of their time.

by Garrett122 on Mar 10, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

The run support thing is weird

ESPN says Ohlie had the 19th lowest run support of any pitcher with a minimum of 100 innings in 2010. ESPN also says Ohlie had a run support per 9 innings of 5.07. I do not believe that for one second. They must have made a programming error.

BB-Ref says Ohlie got 2.0 runs per nine innings while he was in the game. I believe that, and it’d be pretty low. But I can’t tell how to find the single-season leaders/trailers or even the leaders/trailers for that season. (FWIW, it has Felix Hernandez at 3.1; ESPN had Hernandez as the lowest RS for any starting pitcher.)

This piece from the stats.com page says that the lowest run support in 2010 was Ted Lilly with 2.88. Ohlie (with just over 100 IP) presumably didn’t have enough IP to count; having 0.88 RS below the worst qualified pitcher seems pretty extreme.

In Jose DeLeon’s 2-19 season with a 4.70 ERA, he had run support of 2.3. (That was actually a pretty terrible ERA given the offensive environment; it was an ERA+ of 77, which is the same ERA+ as Jeff Karstens’ 5.42 ERA in 2009.)

…so yeah, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if that was the worst run support ever for someone who pitched 100 innings as a starter, adjusted for offensive environment.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Mar 10, 2011 12:52 PM EST reply actions  

Fangraphs has a sortable list where you can set the minimum innings. It’s listed under the Batted Ball section for some reason.

They have Ohlendorf at 2.24 last year, not 2.0. Just looking back at the last several seasons that does seem like it could be historically low. They only go back to 2002 with that stat, but the next lowest is Zach Day (2004 Expos) at 2.47.

by ElDuce on Mar 10, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I missed the exact stat

as Mr. Silverman was moving quickly (he showed the actual powerpoint used at the hearing which was 140 pages long! but this info came from opposing council’s powerpoint), but that sounds about right because I remember a number in the low 2’s.

I believe it was run support per nine innings that Ross Ohlendorf was in the game what I missed in my original write-up.

No matter the statistic, it was clear last year he got no help and actually looking at the stats prove its true.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 10, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

"In history"? I call BS

I can’t imagine there we’re entire terrible teams back in the (first) deadball era that had trouble scoring two runs a game, but I’ll look anyway.

by bucdaddy on Mar 10, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Just randomly picked 1905 NL

where Boston went 51-103 and scored 3.0 runs/game.

Also, “we’re” should be “weren’t.”

by bucdaddy on Mar 10, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Since the specific stat

of runs support/9 innings when was pitcher was in the game was compiled. I would imagine the deadball era wasn’t included in that time period.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 10, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't know why it wouldn't be.

The pitcher was ALWAYS in the game in the deadball era. In any case, if they don’t mean “in all of recorded history” history they should qualify it, though of course “lowest since 1960” doesn’t sound as impressive, and I’m sure all is fair in love, war and arbitration. And now that I think about it, the third is a weird combination of the first two. “We love ya, Ross, baby, we want you to go out there and win 25 this year with a 250 ERA+, but we’ll take your sorry ass to the mat for a few hundred thousand dollars.”

by bucdaddy on Mar 10, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow. I wish I’d known about this.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 10, 2011 1:28 PM EST reply actions  

Dang

I had meant to make an announcement on here a few days leading up to it, but it slipped my mind. I only learned about it last week and I’ve been super busy with classes.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 10, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh well. I was literally like a two-minute drive away.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 10, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Me too.

So’s GoldNeck. Give us all a heads-up next gig, Charlie, and we can make it a BD get-together.

by bucdaddy on Mar 10, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol

just make sure you figure out how to blend in with all the students…

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 10, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I stay up until five in the morning just like they do, so it’s no problem. :)

by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 10, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

You're in

Are you going to be here this weekend? If so I haven’t played cards with your brothers in a while.. just saying.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 10, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m actually going to be in town for a few months. Have we talked about this before? How do you know my brothers again?

by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 11, 2011 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

A brief discussion

I’m friends with the Faini’s through a friend. I’ve played poker with them probably a half dozens times.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 11, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, cool. I have your name from when you registered – I’ll tell him to call you next time we play. Tony’s one of the best players I’ve played with live – you check-raise him on the turn, he knows what’s up.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 11, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Ya, he's a really good player

Definitely has taken my money one more than one occasion. I’ll be looking forward to it.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 12, 2011 1:22 AM EST up reply actions  

He just finished grad school…might be able to pull it off.

"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto

by blackjackfishtaco on Mar 10, 2011 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Professor Silverson teaches Sports Law at Pitt Law

I took that class, it was great. We focused on the CBAs of the four major sports. He is a really nice guy, and the class was interesting enough to take at 8:30 in the morning – usually not my thing.

by Pghfan987 on Mar 10, 2011 3:04 PM EST reply actions  

Who's

Professor Silverson lol?

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 10, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Hope

everyone enjoyed.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 10, 2011 4:29 PM EST reply actions  

Great write-up!

Read it at work, but waited until I got home to log-in & rec’cy. Well done. As an aside, if Olga Marie Anderson, a WVU Law School alum ever speaks at your school, you should attend. She has some great stories.

"Who is John Galt?"

by Trogluddite on Mar 10, 2011 9:10 PM EST reply actions  

Two more factoids

The first is primarily legally themed, so it may hold little interest to the baseball fan.

At the hearing is the first time each side receives any indication of what the opposing side will argue (in the form of the same packet given to the arbitrators and then explained orally). This is amazing for two reasons, both in its process and its impact. First, its process; in legal proceedings before a court, a large chunk of the procedure is dedicated to discovery (interrogatories, depositions, evidence etc.), providing each side an opportunity to contemplate and develop counter-arguments to present. In fact, if information isn’t submitted to the court (and therefore opposing council) it cannot be used at trial. Which leads to the second point, impact. The impact means in two hours (1 hour for each side to argue their position) each side has to develop a counter-argument. That is, from a legal prospective, insane and very unique.

The second tidbit of information regards leverage. A student asked if the recent signing of Johnny Cueto could be used as leverage by either side and Mr. Silverman explicitly said that other contracts or contract negotiations could not be used as evidence at the hearing.

An extra bonus regarding Cueto. Mr. Silverman said that he believes Cueto’s contract is terrible, mainly because they will be (in his opinion) paying Cueto significantly more during this final three arbitration years (than if they had just taken him to arbitration or settled yearly) to buy out only one year of free agency. He seemed genuinely shocked the Reds agreed to such terms.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Mar 12, 2011 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

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