So Much For Pedro Alvarez Getting Fatter
by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 22, 2011 12:59 AM EDT
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Pat notices something about Pedro Alvarez that I also noticed while I was at McKechnie:
Every time I see Pedro, he seems nice and respectful and he seems to always be working hard (I don't know if it's apparent from any of my pictures, but he's not bigger than he was last year and if anything, he's maybe a bit trimmer with some more muscle), and Pirate fans act like he's Jabba the Hutt. I don't get it.
Right. Now, I admit that my ability to assess someone's weight and level of fitness by just looking at them might not be perfect, but Pat's description of Alvarez as actually looking a little better, physically, than he looked last year seems about right to me.
The backstory here, of course, is that before Spring Training started, Paul Ladewski reported that Alvarez had gained "at least 15 pounds" in the offseason. I asked Neal Huntington about it at PirateFest, and he indicated that although Alvarez had not gained 15 pounds, Alvarez had gained weight, enough that the Pirates "had concerns."
By all appearances, if Alvarez has gained weight, it appears to be muscle. If he gained a bunch of flab this offseason, he's gotten rid of it. So we should probably put this issue to bed. He looks great.
If there's any concern here, it's that he has 19 strikeouts and one walk so far in Spring Training. (He put in some extra time with Clint Hurdle yesterday.) But Alvarez has a history of starting slowly, so hopefully he's just getting that out of his system now.
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He is the real deal
I think that the weight thing is a somewhat legit concern, however I sort of think it is just something that the more pessimistic fans like to dwell on. He is never going to be thin but he also isn’t Pablo Sandoval.
twitter.com/iandavidjackson
by omar moreno on Mar 22, 2011 1:22 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
It’s certainly a legit concern if he’s actually gained it. It just doesn’t appear that he has.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 22, 2011 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Thats wat I'm saying
Sorry if I wasn’t clear
twitter.com/iandavidjackson
by omar moreno on Mar 22, 2011 12:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Actually...
Pablo Sandoval has lost a lot of flab over the winter. He actually LOOKS like a thirdbaseman now. However, his interviews are still the same unintelligible rattlings that make you say “Que?!”
by Larry Harrell on Mar 22, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Me neither.
he’s maybe a bit trimmer with some more muscle), and Pirate fans act like he’s Jabba the Hutt. I don’t get it.
And most of us probably have some nerve complaining about his weight. I mean have me go stand next to Pedro and you’ll probably say “Hey, Pedro’s really skinny and stuff.”
And most of us probably have some nerve complaining about his weight. I mean have me go stand next to Pedro and you’ll probably say "Hey, Pedro’s really skinny and stuff."
In equal fairness, though, most of us probably don’t have jobs where our degree of physical fitness substantially alters our ability to perform the work.
Alvarez's weight
It is my understanding that the concern with Alvarez is that when he puts on weight, it hits him more in his bottom half — legs and butt — and affects his mobility.
This is not a “Hey Pedro, you’re looking fat this year!” situation — it is his weight, and corresponding mobility, that could either keep him at 3B or force him over to 1B. So this isn’t a matter of us picking on him because he’s overweight, it is a matter of his weight directly affecting his ability to play 3B, and thus perform his job at what the Pirates feel is an optimal level.
Some of these posts almost make this weight talk a personal thing.
That's becaue reporters are irresponsible...
That idiot Anup Sinah who pretends to be a scout on another website made mention of the fact that Tabata put on weight this off season; meaning that he looked fat and that was the implication in his writing. When a commenter called him on it by saying many Pittsburgh beat reporters had stated that Tabata had put on almost 10 -15 lbs of muscle and didn’t have any fat on him at all Sinah replied something to the effect of “I guess that’s possible I didn’t get a look at him up close.” This guy is supposed to be a scout and publishes that Tabata is fat. Tabata’s game relies on speed so that is a pretty bold statement to make from a far and was the final nail in the coffin for me on the idiot’s scouting ability. It’s apparent to me why he is not employed by anyone in major league baseball. Point is, it is a slam to be taken personally when you come into camp having put on muscle (which takes a lot of hard work) and some douchebag reports that you are 15 lbs over weight and this asshole has never seen you up close, or maybe even in person because I believe the original report was all heresay.
I like Anup Sinha alot.
He didn’t say Tabata was fat, he said he looked like he put on some weight, which was true. He is not going to check under Jose’s shirt to see what type of mass.
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 12:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
+1
Here’s Sinha’s comment:
“I thought Jose Tabata also came in a little heavy and not as fast-twitched as he was last year. The 5’11" righthanded hitting outfielder has a thick build to begin with and as a speed-oriented player, it’s crucial he works rigorously to keep the weight off his hips. Like Alvarez, he can still get himself in playing shape but again you’d like to have seen better off-season preparation from a second-year player.”
When confronted about it, he clarifies:
“You have a point, and I wasn’t close enough to see how much was muscle and how much was "the other kind" through his uniform.
My point was simply that he’s bulkier than before and that his body-type makes him vulnerable to thickness around his hips and legs. That kind of weight gain will slow him down and being a speed-oriented player, he can’t afford it."
Seems pretty reasonable to me. I’m sure I’m in the minority on this, but I don’t think that Tabata putting on 15 pounds of muscle is a good thing. He and the Pirates and everybody else need to give up on him being a power hitter and embrace the player he is. More muscle isn’t going to help him hit fewer groundballs, and it’s not going to help him leg out more grounders or snag more flies in the OF. Even if his weight gain is all muscle, the fast-twitch actions that Sinha references are more important for him than strength, and it would be a concern if he’s bulking up in an attempt to be something he’s just not.
i think 15lbs of muscle on an athlete helps unless youre a wrestler who dominated in a lower class
i dont think it will affect the kind of game that tabata plays. he still uses his speed as always.
anup only clarified his statement after yours truly brought it up. the reason why i brought it up in the first place is due to pedro being slammed for a weight gain that didnt exist. in fact, a reporter claimed that pedro could possibly be 30lbs heavier than last season… wish i had the link for this, but i dont.
anup sounded to me like he was just quoting what he had been gossiped around the water cooler
by white angus on Mar 22, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
from what i've seen
anup sounded to me like he was just quoting what he had been gossiped around the water cooler
Anup def doesnt sound like a guy who does this. His point is reasonable, imo. He feels that the weight gain may affect his speed, and/or range (my interpretation), as epoc also said above. If he does hit for more power, it will be justified. If not, he could lose value, esp in the SB area, and in terms of the possibility of being traded as a legit CF.
by BurgherKing on Mar 22, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope...
he went directly to assuming it was fat without checking or even picking up a friggin newspaper to find out what Biertempfel, Dunlap and Langosh had been reporting everywhere: Tabata put on 15 lbs of muscle. Tabata slowing down is important but Sinnah only goes that route after Angus called him out. Besides, it was reported that Tabata has put on 15 lbs of muscle; has been reported anywhere that he is 15 lbs heavier than last years playing weight? If this gain in lean muscle mass comes at the expense of dropping some more kid fat than this is a win-win. I do know this; don’t look for Sinah to clear it up.
from epoc's quote above
i dont see him saying it was fat anywhere. Simply that putting on weight may not be a good thing. The implication is different from it being 15 lbs of pure muscle, but I have a hard time disagreeing with the possibility Sinha is putting out there…
Like Alvarez, he can still get himself in playing shape but again you’d like to have seen better off-season preparation from a second-year player.
What do you assume “you’d like to have seen better off-season preparation” means?
by insane_sanity on Mar 22, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
the implication is negative
but its not like saying, he’s a lazy bum who got fat- its saying that the weight may affect the thing that his game is based off – speed.
I guess I am saying that there are degrees to negative comments, and this is not particularly terrible or indefensible.
I think you're being too generous
That same quote says Tabata will have to “get himself in playing shape”. That doesn’t fit well with an interpretation that he meant Tabata put on too much muscle.
no he doesnt (and maybe i m being too generous...)
(…since I usually enjoy Sinha’s perspective)
But nor is it as blatant a calling-out as people seem to be thinking it is.
I said elsewhere I think, that not all of the 20 lbs added is likely to be muscle, its hard to maintain it, and its entirely possible it will have some effect on Tabata’s game. Equally, it may not affect Tabata’s speed at all, and give him more power.
Sinha is coming from the pt of view that speed is crucial to Tabata’s game, and if he loses some by virtue of the weight, his game will suffer. That’s fine by me. He could be wrong, of course, but I can see how he got there.
the comment about speed is irrelevant
Sinha’s larger point about how Tabata’s game is dependent on speed is irrelevant to this line of discussion. His statement was singled out because it’s been interpreted as meaning Tabata got fat. You can interpret his comments any way you like but when most people read things like “get himself into playing shape”, “better off-season preparation” and “it’s crucial he works rigorously to keep the weight off his hips”, they think the writer is saying the guy got fat. Who bulks up with muscle on their hips?
I read it differently...
but its not like saying, he’s a lazy bum who got fat
I think that’s exactly what he is saying.
Like with the JRod being lazy piece it’s hard to tell how much is true and how much isn’t.
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 3:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Colin Dunlap just wrote to me to point this out:
http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/pbc-blog/108354-rays-at-pirates-2272011
When I chatted with Jose Tabata in the clubhouse before the game, he asked me: “Why does everyone say I put on weight?” He clarified that he is in much better shape right now than last year, but he has added a bunch of muscle to his arms and chest and actually lost weight. He went from what he said about 218 to right around 210. I asked him how he did it in the offseason. His response, “All I did was lift.”
by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 22, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks Charlie...
that clears things up quite a bit. It would also explain why I haven’t noticed him playing “slower” this season.
muscle burns fat but apparently not the fat between the writers' ears
good for Jose. as a weight lifter myself, i know that it doesnt hinder performance as much as some think. it CAN hurt a pitcher way more than a runner though.
I’m not sure whether Tabata’s muscle will hurt his game or help it. I think it will help, but like you, I’m concerned it could go the other way. Ive never viewed Tabata as a 20+ home run guy.
The same concern is with Pedro’s weight. I think at this stage, their condition says.more than a 50 PA slump.
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 12:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i agree entirely
with epoc’s and your take on the subject.
Tabata may actually become a 20 HR guy, in which case, it’ll all be worth it. I was kinda hoping we could trade him for a big haul as a CF who can hit 300, OPS 740 and steal 25-30 bases consistently. If the muscle does affect his speed and ability on the field, then he better start OPSing 840 with solid LF defense!
by BurgherKing on Mar 22, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree (and thanks that was the exchange I was referring too)...
he clearly mentions the weight gain as a negative. He admits to assuming the weight gain was fat and not muscle when called out on the carpet.
But the weight gain (even if muscle) could be negative if you see him entirely as a speed and defense guy. Don’t know if I fully agree, but that’s a legit position.
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 1:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, this was discussed down thread already.
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 1:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We'll have to agree to disagree...
I definitely got from the article that Tabata had put on weight in a negative way.
He is not going to check under Jose’s shirt to see what type of mass.
No but he could get a little closer to find out. Or at least ask around…no wait, at least pick up a paper and read what everybody else was reporting. No excuse in my book. Maybe I’m being too harsh but I don’t think so.
yes
He was negative. But why is that so bad? It’s like some of you read things not to learn new information or gain new insights but just to see whether or not a writer agrees with your preconceptions, and if they don’t you trash him. He’s saying he doesn’t think Tabata’s weight gain, whether it’s muscle or not, is a good thing because bulk is going to negatively affect his speed-oriented game. He may be right or he may be wrong, but it’s unfair to just say “he was being negative so he’s a hack.” Yeah, he was being negative, but it’s still a valid opinion.
It was so bad...
because it was irresponsible. He insinuated, IMO, that Tabata got fat over the winter. He backed off it when called out and led in to what you guys are taking from this, which is that is dangerous for him to gain too much weight if it comes at the expense of speed.
It’s like some of you read things not to learn new information or gain new insights but just to see whether or not a writer agrees with your preconceptions, and if they don’t you trash him.
I guess you’re referring to me but I’ve read that site from the minute it went live because of what it offered, 1st person scouting of Pirate prospects. With this I was hoping to get new insight and information that I can’t get from other publications or from myself since I can’t get to a lot of games. And for the record I did get a lot of good information from the site. I however over time came to the opinion that I don’t really care for Sinnah’s opinion or the way he interprets the things he sees. I don’t like the way he states his opinions about players that he scouted years in the past as if those things he witnessed then still apply today. I don’t like the way he makes assumptions and generalizations; like the case with Tabata. I flat out just don’t think he’s a good scout. I personally like Keith Law (among others) when most on here hate him becasue he has been critical of some Pirates prospects so I don’t think it’s a matter of preconceptions.
He’s saying he doesn’t think Tabata’s weight gain, whether it’s muscle or not, is a good thing because bulk is going to negatively affect his speed-oriented game.
He used his preconeptions of the weight gain to say that Tabata looks slower. That is the first report I’ve read from anyone covering the Bucs that Tabata is slower. I’ve seen a couple of preseason games and he doesn’t look slower to me or appear to have lost any quick twitch movements. Given what I believe about Sinah I question how close even watched Tabata to determine the “loss of quick twitch” comments. Sorry epoc I just don’t like the guy as a scout. I think he is lazy. He brings useful information to his site no doubt but I take everything he says with a grain of salt.
Good points in the last paragraph. If I would have since a reports based on the first TV game, I would have said Tabata was a touch slower. But is that more due to preconceptions about his bulking up?
What would help up more is home-to-first times between last year and now. Some more evidence would help, admittedly.
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 1:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
he brings a purely scouting perspective
for instance, the touting of greg picart- its silly because Picart isn’t a prospect, but Sinha simply put down what he saw on the field. He didnt see the guy’s age or his stats, because he was watching on the field. Now when you read it, and go look at his age/stats, you can figure its pointless. But the pure scouting has value.
I question how close even watched Tabata to determine the "loss of quick twitch" comments
I don’t think he did. This is his extrapolation to the fact that tabata has put on weight. I’ll give it time to see how it plays out. Also, the fact that Tabata is stronger as a result of the muscle- but its not 15 lbs of pure muscle, is it? There’s proportionate fat in there, likely? Muscle is also hard to maintain, so it’s not a terribly indefensible position in my view.
One point:
I guess you’re referring to me
I agree with epoc’s comment that you’re replying to, and (imo) I dont think he’s referring to you in the general (maybe in this instance). I find your comments measured and thought out. But it is true that it occasionally strikes me that some people are simply validating the FO’s stance, or wanting to see different places say the same thing…
because it was irresponsible. He insinuated, IMO, that Tabata got fat over the winter. He backed off it when called out and led in to what you guys are taking from this, which is that is dangerous for him to gain too much weight if it comes at the expense of speed.
This is the sort of thing that makes me think you aren’t being fair. He clearly says, in his original post, before ever being called out about it, “as a speed-oriented player, it’s crucial he works rigorously to keep the weight off his hips.” He didn’t bring in the speed-oriented position only after being called out on insinuating that Tabata is fat. Not at all. From the beginning, he says that Tabata has put on weight (never even mentions the word “fat”) and explains that this is a concern because it might affect his speed. Obviously the insinuation is that the weight isn’t “good” weight and that he needs better conditioning, but again that is a perfectly defensible position and not at all irresponsible. If you choose to dismiss his opinion because you disagree or because you don’t like him, fine, but don’t keep trashing him just because you don’t like what he says.
Do you honestly think “keeping weight off his hips” could refer to muscle? Seriously, who works out to bulk up their hips? For that matter, what type of exercise would someone do to add muscle mass to their hips?
It’s absolutely a fair reading to assume Sinha intended to say Tabata got fat over the winter. In addition to the hips comment, he said Tabata needed to get into playing shape. He also said Tabata could do a better job with off-season preparation. Those aren’t comments by someone who thinks a guy spent too much time in the gym working out.
Gorillagogo covered what I wanted to say...
Point is that Sinah didn’t have to speculate but he did. He could have picked up a friggin newspaper because it was all over the town how good Tabata looked.
Obviously the insinuation is that the weight isn’t "good" weight and that he needs better conditioning, but again that is a perfectly defensible position and not at all irresponsible.
How is this defensible when it is false? Read Charlie’s post above where Dunlap answers a question about Tabata’s conditioning. Tabata is in terrific physical shape so I would say that he doesn’t need better conditioning at all. This is not a defensible position because it is flat out incorrect.
If you choose to dismiss his opinion because you disagree or because you don’t like him, fine, but don’t keep trashing him just because you don’t like what he says.
I can trash the guy all I want. I think he is a crap scout and in part for the reasons I’ve been listing in this thread. When a scout comes out and offers opinions like “Tabata needs a better off season progragm and needs to get into playing shape” after an offseason where Tabata comes into camp in the best shape of his life, I think it’s more than fair to question his credibility. As far as I’m concerned he’s the Smizik of the scouting word. Just my opinion.
he's a scout
His job is to speculate. But whatever. You don’t like it. Fine.
A scout's job is not to speculate...
on tangible things. They speculate on things like projectability and ceilings. They don’t speculate on things like height or fasbtall velocity or someone’s weight. If I was a GM and my scout reported back to me that player looked like he had put on weight and appeared to lose some of his “quick twitch movements” and it turned out to be completely wrong on all levels I would fire him. But we are obviosly not going to agree on Anup’s scouting skills. I personally don’t trust his opinion in that arena but I will however refrain from being overly critical/harsh when posting in the future. That post on Tabata burned me up since I first read it and this seemed like a relevant thread to bring it up but in hindsight it was unnecessarry and to your point I did go out of my way to trash him. So I won’t do it again unless I feel it is 100% relevant to the post on hand.
A scout’s job is not to speculate… on tangible things.
Sometimes it is. If a scout’s watching a kid and the kid looks bulky, he has to make an informed judgment on how much of the weight is fat and how much of the weight is muscle. It’s not like he can walk up with a probe and stick the kid with it, measuring the depth of his back fat.
If Anup screwed up on his read on Tabata (and it certainly seems like he did), so be it. He should be criticized for that. But he wasn’t going outside the bounds of a scout’s job by saying what he said.
I guess I should be more clear or rephrase...
I don’t think it’s a scout’s job to speculate when their is information readily available nullifying the need for speculation. The example you bring up would require some type of estimation since you can’t check the body fat % of everyone you scout. However in this case, there was plenty of information available so there was no need, IMO, for Sinnah to speculate. It was lazy and irresponsible, IMO, but I’ve already said that so I should probably stop beating the horse.
Well for one...
the were articles and blog entries from all of the major players: Dunlap, Langosh and Biertempfel talking about the muscle Tabata put on. Basically everyone who has been up front and close to him. That should have been enough to make Sinnah question what he saw from a distance. You would think that he would at least talk to other scouts and tried to confirm what he saw. Sinnah’s post came out after all of those articles and blog entries. Then there is the fact that he could have gotten closer to Tabata himself in order to actually determine whether he looked fat or not. Charlie, Pat and WTM were able to get close enough to get some pretty good pics I would think that Sinnah could have. It’s much easier to speculate though.
when they announced his weight gain i was expecting a noticable change
when they DID finally show pictures of Pedro at the beginning of camp, i was like “WTF?!?!?!”…
just another example of a writer posting crap just to get his name out there.
In the writer’s defense, Neal Huntington did confirm that his report was at least partially correct.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 22, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
You know,
Pedro could be fat in December and slim in March.
As a former wrestler I can say for certain that this is probably the case. I easily shed 15 to 20 pounds in the month or so leading up to the season every year. And that was off of a 125-30 pound frame. It would be nothing for an athlete of Alvarez’s caliber to shed that weight before he came to camp.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
There may have even been some kind of causal relationship...
…between the Pittsburgh media calling him a lazy fatass over the winter and him showing up for camp in great shape.
Just speculating here.
i think the team was kinda pissed off that he missed the first mini camp
but you may be right, vlad. could have been a backdoor challenge by the FO.
by white angus on Mar 22, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't say a slow start
for Alvarez, because all I thought of when you say slow start is..
Adam LaRoche
and I have to believe Alvarez is noooo Laroche lol.
The key
for Alvarez is being able to lay off those breaking balls. When he is going good, he lays off the breaking balls out of the zone, he fouls off the ones that are strikes, and he gets more fastballs he can smash. I think we have to accept his inevitable slumps but, his streaks will be truly awesome.
thats my belief as well.
i think of pedro as being as clutch as anyone when hes on. even streaky, he still nearly knocked in 120 runs last year.
yeah, yeah, RBI’s dont mean $@#!
sigh
by white angus on Mar 22, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
On the weight thing....
It is incredibly difficult for anyone to put on 20 lbs. of muscle in 5 months, as may have been suggested about Tabata. I don’t have a view on his weight one way or the other, but unless he was involved in a very rigorous training program and really diet conscious and working out that whole time (all of which I doubt) he didn’t put on 20 lbs. of muscle.
What I don’t understand is why somebody didn’t ask him some of those questions and get his answers rather than blindly speculating. I may be down there this week, and if I am, I will ask if I get the opportunity. I will do likewise with Pedro.
As a side point it just doesn’t seem reasonable to expect these guys to play baseball for seven months and then not take some time totally off. So if they start working out Jan 1 that is enough time to get in shape, but probably not enough to significantly alter their body time.
The Hammer Speaks
Twitter: @hammerspeaks
if done correctly, you CAN put on 20LBS of muscle in just a couple of months
plenty of protein, extra calories, and lots n lots of lifting with MAX weight and few reps…
you can always lean down later.
If there’s any concern here, it’s that he has 19 strikeouts and one walk so far in Spring Training. (He put in some extra time with Clint Hurdle yesterday.) But Alvarez has a history of starting slowly, so hopefully he’s just getting that out of his system now.
…and he has 2 more in his first 2 AB’s against HOU today.
PLEASE let him get them out of his system now…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
He just hit his first bomb, though, too.
In Mondays and todays game, Pedro accounts for the only Ks on the entire team.
by Adam Reynolds on Mar 23, 2011 2:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
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