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The Pirate Problem

As part of their 2011 Cardinals preview, the St. Louis Post Dispatch wrote a 2011 preview for the other teams in the NL Central.   Rick Hummel of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch wrote their Pirates' preview, titled "The Pirate Problem."  His article was reasonably well-informed up until this sentence:

Just a few years ago, the Pirates had an All-Star caliber outfield of Jason Bay, Xavier Nady and Nate McLouth, but they, too, were dealt away for financial reasons, as were second baseman Freddy Sanchez and shortstop Jack Wilson.

 

(emphasis added)

Mr. Hummel did not cite a source for this claim.  In fairness, it isn't Hummel's job to cover the Pirates, but there's no excuse for such lazy "journalism".  (more after the jump)

Star-divide

First, it should be acknowledged that the Pirates have made trades for financial reasons, notably in 2003 when the Pirates were de facto forced to trade Aramis Ramirez to the Cubs.  The trade of Jason Kendall and most of his contract to Oakland in November 2004 also smelled like a salary dump, with the curious distinction that Kendall was the Pirates' second-highest paid player in 2007, even though he played for the A's.  However, given Kendall's precipitous decline after age and injuries caught up to him, that trade is defensible.  Under previous management, the Pirates have also agreed to questionable contracts, including the deferred money paid to Kendall and that owed to Brian Giles, who re-appears on the Pirates' payroll in 2011 despite retiring from the Padres last year.

But the Pirates broke up that "All-Star caliber outfield" (which somehow includes Nady, who has never been named an All-Star), for "financial reasons"???

The problem with Mr. Hummel's argument is that it ignores the fact that under Huntington and Coonelly, the Pirates have committed themselves to the first genuine ground-up rebuilding project since the streak of losing seasons began.

The trades of Nady, Bay, McLouth, Sanchez, and Wilson were clearly for baseball reasons.  Nady, Sanchez, and Wilson were all free agents (or would be free agents if their option was declined) at the end of the season they were traded, although the Pirates did offer Sanchez and Wilson extensions before deciding to trade them.  Jason Bay (by far the biggest trade chip in this group despite his noodle of an arm) wasn't in a contract year, but when even the Red Sox couldn't re-sign him, there was zero chance he would have stayed in Pittsburgh.  And centerfielder Nate McLouth was blocking a better player in Andrew McCutchen, and didn't want to move to LF.  One can fault Huntington for the (major-league) return of these trades so far, but given the number of games missed by those players after being traded, and their combined offensive output (just one All-Star caliber year, Jason Bay's 2009 season for Boston), he clearly traded them at peak value.

If the trades were made strictly for financial reasons, then why would the Pirates spend more than any other team, on the draft, over $30M, from 2008-2010?  Sure, they had low draft picks in those drafts, which would cost more money, but why would they offer later-round draftees over-slot bonuses in these drafts?  Why would the Pirates spend more than $3.2M in Latin America alone in 2010?  Mr. Hummel acknowledges some of the Pirates' expenditures on amateur talent in the article, including the new baseball academy in the Dominican Republic, but still failed to recognize that the Pirates had committed to rebuilding from the ground up.

Finally, focusing on the Pirates' major league payroll is a poor indicator of a team's finances. Half of the Pirates' starting eight graduated from the minors in the last two years; these players by definition will be cheap, as they are all pre-arbitration eligible.  A large percentage of their pitching staff is also pre-arbitration eligible, or went to arbitration for the first time in the offseason.  The bigger test will be when the current "core" becomes eligible for arbitration and/or free agency, and who is signed to extensions.  Until then, I'm willing to give the current Pirates managment the benefit of the doubt.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

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Evidently...

the point has skipped past people that the only reason the Pirates were able to spend money on the draft the last few years was to get rid of the big contracts.

If that’s not financial…what is?? The trades had very little to do with what was acquired in return.

by Thunder on Mar 28, 2011 6:44 PM EDT reply actions  

"The trades had very little to do with what was acquired in return."

There’s no evidence for this.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Mar 28, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Which "big contracts" should the Pirates have kept?

Jason Bay had one more good season in him before free agency (and contract demands that even the Red Sox didn’t want to meet). Everyone else has been injured or fallen off the proverbial cliff, or both. So who shouldn’t have been traded? And if Huntington merely wanted to get rid of the big contracts, then why did he offer Jack and Freddy big contracts before deciding to trading them?

The Pirates are clearly rebuilding from the ground up. You can fault the major league return of the trades Huntington made in blowing up the team, but until Bryan Morris, Jeff Locke, et al. make their debuts, it’s kind of early to draw conclusions on everything that was acquired in return.

by gonfalon on Mar 29, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t say they should have kept the big contracts. What I said was that getting rid of the big contracts was what was allowed the Pirates to spend the $10M per on the draft.

However…NH did NOT offer Wilson and Sanchez big contracts. The offers were actually LESS than the contracts they were playing under at the time. And, yes, I fault the major league return in the deals NH has made…and there are very few minor league pieces of those trades that look like they may contribute, other than Tabata and Ohlendorf, it looks like it’s down pretty much to Morris and Locke.

T’aint much to show for blowing up 80% of your roster.

by Thunder on Mar 29, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

One too many was in that first para

by Thunder on Mar 29, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

However…NH did NOT offer Wilson and Sanchez big contracts. The offers were actually LESS than the contracts they were playing under at the time.

An elephant is smaller than a blue whale. Is an elephant big?

T’aint much to show for blowing up 80% of your roster.

‘T wasn’t much of a roster to blow up.

by Vlad on Mar 29, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

THIS!

i’d blow dat bitch up all over again.

by white angus on Mar 29, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

And we all should be happy to take pay cuts at our jobs.

by Thunder on Mar 29, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

What? So any player that has a decrease in salary isn’t in the same boat?

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Mar 29, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

And we all should be happy to take pay cuts at our jobs.

Just like our bosses should be happy paying us the same amount for lower-quality work?

by Vlad on Mar 29, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

a baseball player is not a typical job, dude. enough with that.

i understand your dislike of the management, and your frustration from years of losing. but you CANT compare a baseball player to a bricklayer or a waitress.

getting paid to play a game aint the same shit. its a godamn priveledge.

by white angus on Mar 29, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

getting paid to play a game aint the same shit. its a godamn priveledge.

Yes and no. It’s a privilige, but at the same time, it’s also a recognition of the scarcity of the skills involved. Being a waitress or a bricklayer is hard work, but there are a lot more people capable of being good waitresses or bricklayers than there are who are capable of hitting .275 with doubles power against MLB pitching.

As such, given Jack and Freddy’s declining skills, a pay cut was inevitable. Their skills weren’t as rare anymore, and thus weren’t worth as much.

by Vlad on Mar 29, 2011 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I prefer to think of it...

…as a really, really good job.

The NASCAR thing is pretty much indisputable, though. Keep turnin’ left, boys!

by Vlad on Mar 30, 2011 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can you imagine if baseball players worked for tips?

maybe we would have seen some hustle from folks like Joggin’ Ronny Paulino

by gonfalon on Mar 30, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

“What I said was that getting rid of the big contracts was what was allowed the Pirates to spend the $10M per on the draft.”

And, again, you’ve provided no evidence for this.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Mar 29, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting...

the players were not shuffled off for financial reasons. They were not shuffled off for the major league return…and the minor league return has been overall disappointing. Then, why were they sent elsewhere?

So, you’d have been good with the Pirates just releasing them?? 80% of the roster gone, and you’re good with Ohlendorf, Tabata, Hanrahan and possibly 2 minor leaguers for all that shuffling. I’m not naive enough to think that the Pirates would be spending $10M a year on the draft if Bay, LaRoche, etc remained on the payroll. Do I have evidence one way or the other? Of course not. Just as you don’t have any evidence that they would have.

by Thunder on Mar 29, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

what?

Who besides you said they weren’t traded for the major/minor league return? Where do you get the idea that I’d have been good with just releasing them? For that matter, how would Bay and LaRoche still be on the payroll, given that the contracts they had at the time have expired?

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Mar 29, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

They were not shuffled off for the major league return…and the minor league return has been overall disappointing.

The players who were shuffled off have, by and large, also been disappointing, which is the main reason we were only able to extract a disappointing return in exchange for them.

Do I have evidence one way or the other? Of course not.

If you have no evidence to support your hypothesis, then why should we believe you?

by Vlad on Mar 29, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

The players were shuffled off because THAT'S HOW A GROUND-UP REBUILDING WORKS

I like you, Thunder, but you’re being rather obtuse here. You can’t be baffled by Huntington’s trades, because you (and every other Pirates fan) has seen the same thing at least once before.

Do you recall the last time the Pirates sucked this bad, back in 1985? The next year wasn’t much better, but Barry Bonds and John Smiley made their debuts, and they got back Bobby Bonilla. After the 1986 season, the Pirates under Syd Thrift committed to a youth movement (a ground-up rebuilding) by trading away every veteran that had value — Rick Rhoden, Tony Pena, Rick Reuschel, Don Robinson, Johnny Ray (not necessarily in that order) — over the next year.

At the time, I understood the Rhoden trade, but I really fucking hated the Pena trade (especially given its timing, on April Fools day). However, those two trades worked out pretty well for the Pirates… the other trades, not so much. Sometimes, trades for young players don’t work out!!!

Finally, the Pirates must have cleared a sh!tload of payroll (considering the era) in those trades, money that was used to … sign draft picks? increase Leyland’s smoke budget? make improvements to their minor league facilities??? Who knows what it was used for, some 25 years later. But you know what? Clearing payroll wasn’t the point, they were REBUILDING!

by gonfalon on Mar 29, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Johnny Ray trade broke my heart.

I’d been a fan for about a year and a half at that point, and he was my first-ever favorite player.

In retrospect, I understand what they were doing, but it was still a bitter pill for nine-year-old me to swallow.

by Vlad on Mar 29, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

That one hurt...

but the Tony Pena broke mine. I loved Tony Pena. Thankfully he was traded for my next favorite player. And honestly, I was too young too fully understand so that didn’t help.

by Slick1 on Mar 29, 2011 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Their team is cheaplt signed as you say

So why bring in cheap bullshit garbage to ruin the team every year?

Neil Huntington is a dunce who could not judge a ballplayer from an accountant.

Correia? Olsen? Overbay? And that is not even going into last years disaster on the river he single handedly put together.

by daddioyeah on Mar 28, 2011 7:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Thank you, he whom is intellectually superior to us all; ye who takes a rebuild by major league record only; he who looks at advanced statistics like ERA, batting average and the mother of them all, home runs, and scoffs at their ineffectiveness.

Translation: I know you’re a troll, but the best trolls are subtle. If you aren’t a troll, humanity ain’t ever gonna make it.

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Mar 28, 2011 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, please.

Rewind youself, n00b.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Mar 28, 2011 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look here steakhead,

I didn’t ask for your 2 bit opinion of what was easier or harder and I am not complaining, (Believe me you’d know it if I was complaining) I asked a simple question. I didn’t ask for a lecture on how you or anyone else does things.

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Mar 28, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

In fairness, Huntington tried to sign guys like Jose de los Santos and Carl Pavano, but they declined

and I’m pretty confident Huntington can judge a ballplayer better than Dave Littlefield.

But since you brought it up, who should Huntington have signed this year? Were guys like Cliff Lee, Derek Jeter, and Carl Crawford ever realistic options? Please, do tell.

by gonfalon on Mar 29, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

You DO know, of course,

that you’ll get no answer…

Trolls do not reply, they just incite.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Mar 29, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

bottom line is the record

and that is better than the actual signings and trading for the likes of Eveland and Aki.

This bozo is a clown who cant judge talent

by daddioyeah on Mar 29, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

bozo is a clown

It’s also a traditional Kyrgyz drink made from fermented millet:

The more you know!

by Vlad on Mar 29, 2011 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

no one

including you saw Aki’s implosion coming. at the time, that trade filled a big hole at 2B pretty well.

by theatrain on Mar 30, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Only idiots thing of everything in black and white.

Prove that you aren’t an idiot please.

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Mar 30, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

thing?

only dumbasses feel all numbers are bad representation of production and performance.

The make believe fairy tell you it’s good to lose an extra 5 or 10 games yearly?

The magic 8 ball tell you it’s just a bunch of bad luck that the numbers are this bad?

Does your dumbass mind tell you that play has improved over the past 3 years despite more losses?

This team’s play would make them lucky to play .500 in AAA.

The GM is a joke, he is either the dumbest ass in baseball or part of a reality show to see how poor he can make a team and still have a handful of assholes kissing his ass as a savior

by daddioyeah on Mar 31, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

that is funny

daddio, please try and clean up the foul language.

by the way, the reality show idea is funny subtract the language.

by jackiegleason on Apr 1, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

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