Should Huntington be fired?
by DejanMustard on Apr 26, 2011 11:13 AM EDT
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PrintI have been back and forth on this issue since all the trades of 2008. The argument can be made either way, but in my opinion it is a very important debate and it is quite simply the most important position in the entire organization (players included). Let's take a look at his body of work....
I was one of the biggest defenders of Huntington after he traded away most of the team he inherited. It was simple. This was the apex of a team created by Littlefield and the team couldn't even break .500. Why keep them together? We needed to have a true firesale and get pieces that would be part of an actual competitive team.
Marte, Nady
This trade was very confusing, because, at first, it was reported as a totally different trade. Karstens and McCutchen were not a part of the trade and were replaced with George Kontos and Phil Coke. I can't say I care which way the trade would have gone. It was Huntington's best trade, as it landed Tabata, but it also foreshadowed what type of players Huntington would covet in trades. He was going to target prospects that, in his opinion, had lost value within the industry for an unfounded reason. That could be that a starting pitcher was now only thought of as a reliever (Ohlendorf), had off/on the field troubles (Tabata, Milledge), or had failed in this first trip to the major leagues (Andy laroche, Jeff Clement, Ronny Cedeno, etc.) It's akin to buying stocks at their 52 week low. The flip side of this is that buying stocks at their 52 week low could be just the beginning of the stock going even lower, while buying at the 52 week high, could be indication that the stock is set to rise higher.
Bay
I was very happy when this trade happened. Bay was are biggest trade chip and was in the middle of a stellar season. We received Laroche, who had raked in the minors and was now going to be our 3b of the future and Morris seemed like a top of the line pitcher. Hansen and Moss seemed like good complimentary players.
It failed miserably. 3 of the players on no longer in the organization and the other doesn't seem to have TOP OF THE LINE stuff.
Bautista, Capps
These were essentially dumps. Capps literally was a dump (and therefore not a trade but stay with me) and Bautista netted us a player who had no future anywhere. These moves reminded me of Littlefield moves. We got rid of average players, because we simply didn't want to pay them the money. Bautista and Capps would have netted about 2-3 million a piece and in the Pirates view this wasn't worth it.
FAIL. These moves were major failures and might be the biggest reason Huntington should be fired. I don't blame Huntington for not seeing the Bautista's future explosion, but he was a great bench guy who could play multiple positions and had average OBP numbers. Capps had one bad season. One. There was no reason to believe he couldn't find his former abilites and excel as an above average late inning pitcher. Huntington has stated that he believes a bullpen can be put together in any given offseason, and I believe he's proven he has a talent for it, but the set-up and closer are harder to find. These were salary dumps, plain and simple.
Draft
Huntington changed the Pirates approach to the draft in a major way. The days of drafting "signable" guys was out the door. It was a welcome change. Hungtington drafted Alvarez, Van Rosenburg, Taillon, Allie, and others who all demanded above slot money. The future of these prospects are unknown. Alvarez is going to be a talent, but the others have not proven much and/or have not had the opportunity. These prospects should have a major impact on the decision on if to keep Huntington.
International
It's simple. He's 1 for 2. The Pirates had an unprecedented opportunity to sign Sano, long story short, Huntington messed it up. You can blame it on Sano's agent, but this was a major disappointment. If it wasn't for the Sano debacle, I'd probably not be writing this, but it happened and here it is. It was nice to see the Pirates sign Heredia, who was also well regarded and gave me confidence that Huntington could actually pull off these type of deals.
Huntington has put forward a totally different strategy from that of Littlefield. He wanted to pay players over-slot, acquire former/current prospects, who's stock was down, and make bigger splashes in the international. It seems like a decent strategy. But at what point does results trump strategy? If Huntington implements the perfect strategy and still acquires talent that fails at the major league level, should he keep his job?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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I absolutely agree he should not be fired . . .
but at least this was not the typical post of the pitch fork crowd.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
But Overbay!
And Correia!
And Wood!
And Pearce getting screwed again!
AAIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
+1
I might expect some staff changes underneath him after this year. Such as in the Major league Scounting deparment and Free Agency Department. I believe they’re trying to find Diamonds in the Rough with a low salary at same time. At some point they’re going to have to pony up some dough for a slightly better player in Free Agency. And I think when you only need to fill one or two holes for the team, that’s when you do it. Right now I think we still have more like 4-5-6 holes for fill. which includes Starting Pitching, 1st Base, OF, Shortstop, Catcher,
During trade deadline, that’s where u see a team make a move for one player (it’s not 5 players typically)
Kinda hard to sign a guy when his agent won't tell you if you are bidding against yourself
because any GM with an ounce of sense isn’t going to bid against themselves
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." Wes Westrum
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
“Dumping Capps” not right words to use. We havent lost anything there. He wanted too much money and as for Joey Bats. I hated him. I am shocked he has turned into the hitter he is. I wish him the very best. NH has done great. Just takes time.
by Joey Mooney on Apr 26, 2011 11:41 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
So we should fire Huntington because one of the scrubs he traded found his swing?
Captain Hindsight, it’s nice to finally meet you.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Captain Hindsight: "What they should have done is installed a backup valve, in case that valve broke."
Worker: "I believe they did install a backup safety valve, Captain Hindsight."
Captain Hindsight: "Hmm. Right. Then they should have had a backup safety valve to THAT backup safety valve!"
Worker: "My God he’s right!"
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on Apr 26, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Huntington has definitely made some mistakes
Some of it is the learning curve of being a new GM and some of it is just the nature of the job – no one wins all their trades. It’s hard for me to see what the upside of firing him now would be, since we’d just have to start the same process over with some other guy that’s never been a GM before.
"If it wasn't for the Sano debacle, I'd probably not be writing this, but it happened and here it is."
Dammit.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
as you have said many times
JFC let it go man
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." Wes Westrum
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Apr 26, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
If only that hadn’t happened, we wouldn’t have to read this.
Not that you have to read it, but I think you know whut I’m sayin’…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 26, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
NH is 1 for 2 in International signings?
guess we gotta forget about all the other ones, like Cayones and the Cuban pitcher for 600K last season…
the major league team is improving and the farm system is better now than the last 2-3 decades. thats my endorsement for NH and FC.
i agree
given we are talking about players 4-6 years away, there’s no reason to ignore the rest of them.
by BurgherKing on Apr 26, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
better than 0 for 0
See Littlefield, David
by VoteforPedro on Apr 26, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
"jason bay was traded during a stellar season"
bay had an OPS of .894 at the time. very good, IMO. it was also the 2nd lowest OPS of his career…
stellar? for a pirate, yes.
HINDSIGHT IS 20/20 WITH CAPPS
CAPPS WAS ABSOLUTELY AWFUL THE YEAR BEFORE AND WAS DUE A BIG RAISE. YOU ALSO HAVE TO CONSIDER THAT CAPPS WAS/IS A FAT PIG WHO WAS STARTING TO LOOK LIKE JIMMY ANDERSON’S TWIN BROTHER. IS THAT SOMEONE YOU WANT TO MAKE HUGE FINANCIAL COMMITMENT TO?
CAPPS RECENT SUCCESS IS NOTHING BUT AN ANOMALY. JUST WAIT UNTIL CAPPS SIGNS A BIG MONEY, LONG TERM CONTRACT BEFORE MAKING ANY JUDGEMENT ON THE PIRATES RELEASING HIM.
by CUNNING STUNTS on Apr 26, 2011 12:21 PM EDT reply actions
First of all, turn off the caps lock
Second, what does Capps’ performance after he signs a “long-term contract” during his free agency years have to do with Huntington’s decision to not re-sign him for one more season during his arbitration years?
"First of all, turn off the caps lock"
Not gonna happen. This poster revels in his role.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 26, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
He was in arbitration
It would have cost 2 million. No long term commitment was necessary. He’s since been traded for Ramos, who has a much brighter future than any catcher on our major league roster.
What’s with the CAPS lock? We’re all friends here.
by DejanMustard on Apr 26, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
incorrect
It would have cost 2 million.
I believe the general expectation was it would have cost 3.5-4M
by BurgherKing on Apr 26, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
EXACTLY
CONSIDERING THE PIRATES BAD LUCK WITH PAYING GOOD MONEY TO PLAYERS DESPITE SUBPAR PERFORMANCES YOU CAN’T BLAME HUNTINGTON’S APPREHENSION TO SIGNING CAPPS TO $3.5 MIL.
CAPPS PERFORMANCE WAS ON A DOWNWARD SLOPE FOR A SEASON AND HALF, ALONG WITH HIS BURGEONING POT BELLY.
by CUNNING STUNTS on Apr 26, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the whole idea -
see also his other screen names:
C U oN Tour
melikie yung tang
and one other 12-year-old’s joke name"" that I can’t remember right now.
funny, funny stuff.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 27, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
ESPN HAS LISTED AT 245 (pleeeeeeeeeze!)
LOOKING AT THE BEEFY BULL RIDER’s STATS HE’S NOT EXACTLY BLOWING AWAY THE A.L. HITTERS. WITH A 1-1 RECORD, 3.75 era, AND WHOPPING 5 Ks.
ALL THIS PRODUCTION FOR THE BARGAIN BASEMENT PRICE OF $7.15 MIL.(sarcasm mode:engaged)
by CUNNING STUNTS on Apr 26, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, at least we now know that your caps lock can be turned off...
now, how about it? Wanna grow up?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 27, 2011 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Your right, but..
It wouldn’t have to be long term and had the strong possibility of being a future trade candidate. You can’t really say that about Lyle Overbay.
its almost impossible to fill your starting roster with stellar young talent at every position
NH believed he had to fill a couple of positions externally and did such. now in RF, we have both Lambo and Marte nearly ready to compete for a spot. We dont have that luxury for 1B unless we move Alvarez over there and find a temp fix at 3B.
Even by making these moves, the FO will have to find cheap, temp fixes at other positions.
It wouldn’t have to be long term and had the strong possibility of being a future trade candidate.
If we keep Capps, we probably aren’t able to sign Dotel (the closer’s job was a big part of why he picked us), and thus aren’t able to flip Dotel for McDonald and Lambo. As such, we didn’t really lose any trade value by cutting Capps loose.
Exactly. I have no earthly idea why people like DejanMustard don't understand this.
It wasn’t a dump. It was basically trading Capps for Dotel. Pretty much the same salary, and we got pretty much the same value as the Nats did from Capps.
by MarkInDallas on Apr 26, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s akin to buying stocks at their 52 week low.
Actually, it’s more like the investment manager who specializes in finding undervalued companies. More risk (albeit at a discount), but also more potential reward. But I guess I understand your point.
As to your question: Nope.
Good call.
Billly Beane employed a similar tactic. And he got a best seller written about him… and Brad Pitt to play him in a movie. Badass.
by TheLizardKing on Apr 26, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 26, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nope, NH is doing a great job. Yeah, he’s lost of few trades but the farm system is better than ever.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
you had me until you started talking about Sano
it was not huntingdon’s fault that Sano got away.
it's not huntington's fault for anything?
he blew that signing, no agent is going to tell you that you are the only bidder, that’s not what agents are paid to do. that plus t was all over the press that Minn was in the game.
Lambo close to a starting MLB gig? He hasn’t done anything for a couple of years including this year.
The beginning of the year in AA and AAA aren’t looking like a dynasty in the making,
by jackiegleason on Apr 26, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Good thing the entire roster of AAA and AA won’t be called up to the majors then, eh?
Thank you Ned Colletti.
While the Agent was retarded
Neal should’ve played ball and Gayo, should’ve backed off accordingly… That being said, it’s worth noting that the Heredia thing happened because we’ve known about the kid since he was 8
by VoteforPedro on Apr 26, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
he blew that signing, no agent is going to tell you that you are the only bidder, that’s not what agents are paid to do. that plus t was all over the press that Minn was in the game.
The bottom line is that Plummer told NH that we’d have a chance to match/beat other offers, and then didn’t give us that chance. When the agent flat-out lies to you about that kind of thing, to his client’s detriment, there isn’t much you can do.
maybe the Twins slipped somethin under the table to Plummer?? ya never know.
If so, I have a hard time blaming our FO for not wanting to break the law like that.
nutting is too cheap to buy a table to slip money under
by white angus on Apr 26, 2011 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
he is too cheap to buy a table.
by Wizard of Woz on Apr 29, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Smizik!
Step away from the keyboard and surrender that screen name!!
I hate being at work when the new posts come out – CF2, will Charlie let you start a poll on what EvenMeek is now using for his screen name? This is one of the possibilities.
"Who is John Galt?"
I'm in Indy right now...
went to the game tonite, and going tomorrow if it isn’t rained out.
Getting a stadium tour and trying to chat with a coupla players (if possible) for another article on rumbunter.
Will try to investigate when we get back Weds. nite.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 27, 2011 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t blame Huntington for not seeing the Bautista’s future explosion, but he was a great bench guy who could play multiple positions and had average OBP numbers.
Might be my favorite of the uninformed points!!! Uh, do you know what Jose Bautista’s lifetime numbers are coming off of the bench??? Try this:
.194 avg.
.318 OBP
.323 SLG
which computes to a .641 OPS
Perhaps that is your definition of a “great bench guy”. But let’s be honest. Jose Bautista was not living up to the expectations of him.
And average OBP?!?!?! At the time of the trade, Bautista’s career OBP was .328!!!
Andy LaRoche is considered a complete wash-out and his career OBP is .305. So 23 points must be the difference between a wash-out and a “great bench player”.
Only one problem...
LaRoche was seen as Bautista’s replacement. FAIL.
LaRoche had one solid season as a starting 3B.
Which is one more than Bautista had during his time here.
People tend to forget, but on top of everything else Bautista was a crappy glove, which just killed his value. Over his entire time in black and gold, he was good for a grand total of 0.4 WAR.
Sano....
I was hoping never to hear Sano’s name again, because it is such an overused bashing tool of the Pirates, but let me ask you the very important question:
Why, if Miguel Sano was such a hot commodity, did only TWO teams make him an offer??
I mean, do you really think that the Twins & Pirates were the only teams smart enough to recognize this kid’s talent??
A lot of people have said that they think the Twins invested too much in him and that the Pirates may actually have lucked out in missing out on him, because the investment isn’t all that likely to pan out. Obviously, we won’t know for a while. But, missing out on Sano doesn’t upset me anymore than getting Heredia excites me, which, to be honest, is almost nonexistent.
Didn't both Sano and his agent tell NH to only deal with the agent?
I seem to remember that really ticking them off (whether justified or not) and then they eliminated the Pirates.
If Huntington implements the perfect strategy and still acquires talent that fails at the major league level, should he keep his job?
Long term, of course, the answer is yes. The question is whether the overall everyday decisions that are being made are sound and likely to head us in the right direction.
Sano is one that got away. Whose fault is it? Probably Huntington’s and Gayo’s. It was a mistake. But how big a mistake we’ll not know for years. No team gets every prospect they go after on the IFA market. Obviously. They missed on Sano, but they got Heredia, and that’s very, very good. But how good we also won’t know for years. There are also other Latin prospects coming into the system as well (not just that 1), and we’ll see how they do. We just don’t have enough info right now to say Huntington should be fired because he’s failed. He hasn’t failed. It just takes time to build things.
Bautista
would not have turned into what he is in Toronto here. Stuff like that happens. You just accept it and move on…
I haven't lost hope for the almost 23 years I've been alive...
…but if they fire Huntington this season, or even next, I may lose hope until there is an ownership change. The guy has been nothing but a Godsend for us, the most important piece we have had since 1992.
Has Huntington made mistakes? Absolutely, but find me one GM that has not. WTMs post was fairly well thought out but I disagree that using the Littlefield fucked us so terribly card is old. Even Huntington’s 2008 draft class has had enough time to prove if he knows what he is doing, and judging him solely on that alone would be ridiculous. I’d say give him 7 years so that his initially draft 18 year olds are 25 and look at the state of the franchise before making a retaining or firing decision.
what I like about NH is that he did what needed to be done: he blew up the entire organization
im not big on his fascination with metrics, but im in the minority these days. it took cahonez to take over the Pirates and do what needed to be done. large brass ones.
by white angus on Apr 26, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Godsend?
Giving a guy 7 years to develop a winning team is ridiculous. So if that’s the case then why didn’t DL get 7 as well? Heck it’s his draftees like Cutch and Walker that are the cornerstones of this team along with Alvarez and Tabata.
To say that he is a Godsend is the biggest overreaction regarding him I’ve ever read. Give me a break.
Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.
by Black&GoldTrain on May 6, 2011 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions
We know his body of work
and no he shouldn’t be fired unless the great Phil Jackson is switching sports. I’m sorry your strip club buddies were traded Dejan, but you have a nice job and paycheck; I’m sure you can find some ketchup and hot dogs elsewhere.
The bottom line for managers and GMs in pro sports is winning
So what are the results? Hard to justify extending his contract. Its tough to be a GM of a team like the Pirates. MLB economics and frugal Pirate ownership leaves little room for error.
On the other hand, it’s pretty easy being a Bucs Dugout user. Any moron can do it.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
and wear pom poms calling himself a genius
and let the world know SF’s FO are idiots and that he hasn’t hasn’t made a mistake in his tenure, it has all been a little bad luck,
Rye = NH
You are right, Bucs dugouts allow you to pretend to be an unbiased fan touting the genius moves the FO has made while all the while, huntington is touting himself, he probably shows Nutting all the nice comments by the fans “see, I am a genius, Rye said I am smarter than SF’s FO”, they know winning dont matter.
Rye = Huntington, shameful really to have to do that for his ego sake
by jackiegleason on Apr 27, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
You can't be that dumb.
You just can’t be.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 28, 2011 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions
And yet he is
It is a paradox of stupidity, wrapped in an enigma of ignorance, topped off with a dollop of idiocy. I think jackiegleason = Brian Sabean
Think about it, he comes on here to bash NH, to make himself look better in the eyes of the fans. This makes perfect sense.
JG=BS… I guess that works any way you look at it.
by Wizard of Woz on Apr 29, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
yes and I won a world series
and Rye won the top pick by having the worse record in baseball.
trading for eveland, aki, and signing an old declining 1B. Trading me Lopez for nothing.
Sure, Rye, I mean Neil is much better at judging talent than me.
Player hating is an ugly trait, the guy has an incredible rotation, bullpen and filled the team with guys who filled the holes adequately. add the managerial hireand the winning atmosphere.
Yeah, Neil has done better. LMAO
by jackiegleason on Apr 29, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Signing Barry Zito and Aaron Rowand to exuberant amounts of money. Yep. And those hole fillers are truly filling holes this year.
Aubrey Huff: .563 OPS
Miguel Tejada: .557 OPS
Aaron Rowand: .746 OPS
Freddy: .742 OPS
Short season so far, but those numbers are more in line with the natural regression of talent due to age.
Lot of money spent for a lot of crap.
But, I mean, don’t let logic dictate anything.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
winning is everything
he put together a winning team, He did!!!
RYE = NH
If he drafts Cole first, he should be fired. He’s getting killed by college kids, killed!!!
by jackiegleason on May 6, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Late to comment
Definately NH should be fired. He’s done a terrible job bringing in talent via trades. The team isn’t going anywhere with him in charge. Where are any position prospects in the minors? Sure there are some pitching prospects but who is the 1B of the future? He’s had four years to find one and all he can do is bring in Overbay. It will be a shame if he is given another secret extension.
Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.
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