Talent Gap: Pirates vs. Cubs
by zogger on Apr 3, 2011 1:18 PM EDT
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Maybe those who have watched the two games with the Cubs can please add their comments. My goal is to appraise how the Pirate’s talent stacks up to various teams. I think the team we fielded last year at the beginning of the year had less talent than most teams we faced. However this year is different, at least in position players. So gauging the Pirate’s against other teams seems like an interesting exercise.
It looks like to me that the Pirate’s position player talent is equal and younger than the Cubs. With the exception of Sterling Castro, I think the Pirate’s have at least equal talent to the Cubs. The Cubs have more experience but no more talent. In fact while Castro is way better than anything we have, McCutchen is way better than any OF the Cubs have.
As for pitchers, I’d give the edge to the Cub’s SP. However I like our bullpen better (assuming the blow game by Meek yesterday was an aberration). Again we have talent and youth which (we hope) will prove out.
Comments?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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i agree mostly
i think the Pirates position talent is better than the Cubs- Castro and Soto are the 2 guys I’d love to have, they are better here and there, but I can do with what we have…
They have a huge edge in SP, and Marmol is phenomenal. I dont know much about the rest except Smardzija who is awful.
I'd generally agree with what you said.
We win position players but lose on pitching. I’m still holding out hope our rotation can be competent, and we haven’t seen the 2 most talented guys yet.
Are you saying..
Castro is way better than Cutch? If so, I disagree.
1B- Cubs
C – Cubs
SP – Cubs
Pen – Push
2B – Pirates
SS – Cubs
3B – Pirates
LF / CF – Pirates
RF – Cubs
This season, Cubs.. next 5? Pirates.
We sure looked like the better team this weekend.
Manager – Pirates
calling Pedro better than Aram is questionable at this point. Our defense certainly does not inspire confidence either.
Pedro and Aramis
Aramis defense doesnt look to good the past couple years, from what i have seen, and also last year aramis hit what? like .243 and 20 hrs? and pedro was what like .260 16 hrs, so i would say they are about even at this point in there careers
age of last winning season: 5
Aramis
Ramirez was hurt the beginning of last year.
Through June 30 he hit .179. July 1 through the end of the year he hit .288 (almost .900 OPS) with 19 HR.
Right now, I’d say his bat has an edge on Alvarez…because he’s got some polish. Alvarez will surpass him — Alvarez is on his way up, Ramirez has plateaued and will be on his way down. Defensively they are a push — neither is very good.
by insane_sanity on Apr 4, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Is Pena better than Overbay?
At least not last year.
If he is I’d say marginally.
by BlindSquirrel on Apr 3, 2011 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd agree with you there
Pena’s living off his two big homer years at this point. He’s still a decent power guy, but at what cost? A .196 average last year. Yeesh.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly
Even with that .196 average...
Pena had a .732 OPS last season. Our first basemen had a .648 OPS.
im not so sure that Pena is better than Overbay, that could be a push. and i believe our RF platoon is better than the cubs
that Castro kid, though; whew, thats some talent there. Hanny’s gas didnt phase him at all.
No
I was saying that while Castro is way better than Cedeno, McCutchen is way better than anyone in their OF.
cubs roster
I think they are gunna suck in a year or two, this is probibly there last ok year and i still think we will pass them in the standings, they are old.
there starting pitching is far from great,,,,,, besides Garza….
Zambrano- Head case never know what youll get
Dempster- old and as we saw on friday his stuff has gone down hill in recent years
Randy wells- nothing special to see here
Andrew Cashner- making first career start this week, doesnt look like anything that great either.
i’d say our starting pitching campares decent, besides garza being far ahead of anything we got
age of last winning season: 5
I think you're really underselling their rotation
Zambrano and Dempster are a decent amount better than anyone on the Pirates.
really
Zambrano? the dudes a super head case…… i would take him over Ohlly thats about all…….. im not a homer but take out garza and i would take the pirates rotation over the cubs anyday…
dempster is 35 this year not old for a pitcher but still ageing and the 4th and 5th starters are average at best, its not like there rotation is that much better
age of last winning season: 5
wish we had him
I personally think it’s a GOOD thing when the hitters think you’re not taking your meds.
by insane_sanity on Apr 4, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Dempster is 33…will be 34 in a month. Zambrano is a head-case, but thats not what I’m talking about. He looks bad because of his contract, but you really think Charlie Morton is better than he is? Correia too? I agree with you on Wells…Cashner has some serious gas, but the question is whether he’d be better suited to the bullpen.
Just my opinion.
But the Pirates are more talented overall than the Cubs are, and have way more on the farm as well. The Garza trade really hit them hard.
Ramirez, Soriano, Fukudome, and Pena are all very expensive players on the downside of their careers. That’s the heart of their lineup right there. Soto has had one excellent season and one rough one, so who knows there. The other guys are scrubs with the very notable exception of Starlin Castro. He’s going to be an absolute superstar.
Cubs starting pitching is better than the Pirates, but I also think it’s overrated. Dempster is a finesse guy who’s very hittable. Zambrano is a head-case, and the Pirates just got about 12 hits off of Garza without having Cutch or Doumit in their lineup, each of whom hammer fastballs.
The Pirates are young and cheap. If they could spend money this offseason to the point where they were dead even with the Cubs payroll-wise, the teams wouldn’t even be close. The Cubs are just terrible at allocating money.
Dempster
isn’t really a finesse pitcher…struck out over 200 guys last year. Garza, Dempster and Zambrano aren’t aces by any means, but I think they are substantially better than anyone the Pirates have at this moment.
Going forward…I like the Bucs with Allie, Taillon, Heredia, and Sanchez better than what they have. They have some intriguing guys though (McNutt and Chris Carpenter) but it doesn’t look good with guys like Vitters. Bucs system looks better by a decent bit.
Referring more to velocity
Although I didn’t believe his K’s were nearly that high until I checked. Good call.
And they're not aces
But they’re certainly paid like them. Dempster, Zambrano, and Garza add up to over 36 million this season alone if you take the average of their deals.
On the Pirates staff...
all 3 of them would be aces.
I know you’re a bastion of negativity here, but you do know they’re also aces on the Cubs staff, right?
The point he’s trying to make is that they aren’t aces with respect to the league.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
by ryebr3ad on Apr 4, 2011 8:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
sorry
But after Zambrano got counseling, he came back the ace he was before a bout with the crazies.
He came back and went 8-0 with a 1.58 ERA (opponents held to a .547 OPS) — taking his season ERA from 5.59 down to 3.33. While he only struck out 60 in 74 IP during that run, he still has the ability (at 30) to be an ace.
by insane_sanity on Apr 4, 2011 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
very true. yet you have to admit his "stuff" is way down from just a couple years ago
we’re talking almost a 10MPH swing here. usually when the guys on BD talk about this, its almost a death sentence for a pitcher.
where are you getting the 10 MPH from?
Isn’t it fangraphs that shows the average velocity? It looks like he’s down from 91-92 (going back a couple of years) down to 89…but he’s throwing more cutters now than ever before. As the percentage of cutters thrown has increased, year by year, his average velocity has decreased — this could account for a lot of his decrease in velocity.
I’d agree it is a death sentence if his 4-seamer went from 99 to 89. That’s not what we’re seeing here, at least not on average.
by insane_sanity on Apr 4, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
He's definitely more of a pitcher now...
and less of a thrower. The good pitchers can make the transition when they start losing their stuff.
correct me if im not wrong, but he, on occassion would top off in the upper 90's at one time
or am i mixing him up with someone else. he was known for his power, yes?
He could run a 4-seamer up there…but I was thinking 94-96 on occasion.
But the numbers just don’t dictate the 10mph loss — and as Slick said, he pitches now more than he throws.
by insane_sanity on Apr 4, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
i can see your point, but if any other pitcher drops in velocity, he becomes a waste of mediocrity
at least he does in a pirates uni
Early in his career he would have been considered a power pitcher...
definitely. He could hit mid 90’s regularly.
Actually...
for most of their careers…Zambrano and Dempster would be aces on at least half of the staffs in the majors…especially Zambrano. While the Pirates haven’t had an ace in about 17 years. All 3 of them are much more talented than anyone we’ve had in a long time. And we probably could have gotten Zambrano at a discount last season, if money were forthcoming.
I’m not apologizing for being negative here. When there are actually things to be positive about, I give credit. When I give a pitching staff credit for having a 5.00 staff ERA is the time I quit watching baseball altogether.
I'd argue
Benson, in 2000, was an ace.
by insane_sanity on Apr 4, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
He’s had a really bizarre career…elbow surgery, Marlins moved him to the pen, and then the Cubs move him back to the rotation.
I really DO
hate that flippy-flappy thing he does with his glove, though.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 4, 2011 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Overall
I’d probably take the Pirates offensively (long-term if nothing else, although this year could be nice) from the position players. Defensively? Well….
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Garza, Z, AND Dempster..
..would each become the instant ace of the Pirates rotation..
That’s not even debatable, is it?
When their #3 is better than our #1, they clearly have the edge in rotation. We can argue about age, money, etc., but that’s pretty much fact I’d think.
by jlk9697 on Apr 3, 2011 11:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
well said.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 3, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
They may not be “aces” in the true sense of the word (Halladay, CC, Felix) but they’re pretty good pitchers who are better than anyone the Bucs have.
I guess that boils down to your definition of an Ace
If you say that an ace would be the #1 pitcher in a rotation if all talent was distributed evenly across all teams, then we are looking at the to 30 Starting pitchers. Also, some durability would be nice. From ‘08-10, Dempster ranks #14 in fWAR. The others don’t qualify. So Dempster would be an Ace, I guess, with the others as just pretty good pitchers with an issue or 2.
by Wizard of Woz on Apr 4, 2011 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Zambrano has averaged close to 4 WAR a season over the last 8 years. Just guessing…there aren’t but 4 or 5 pitchers who have done that for that long a period.
In the last 8 years
Big Z is 13th in overall fWAR for pitchers.
Not top 5, but still pretty good. Some of those guys may not have had much early on, but have been so good in recent years that thier 0 years still give them a better average then Z’s overall average.
by Wizard of Woz on Apr 4, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
That's starting pitchers
I’m not sure if any RP would get up there, but that is outside of this discussions anyway. Just clarifying.
by Wizard of Woz on Apr 4, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m assuming Z didn’t qualify due to counseling?
As I posted above: He came back and went 8-0 with a 1.58 ERA (opponents held to a .547 OPS) — taking his season ERA from 5.59 down to 3.33.
by insane_sanity on Apr 4, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess I think of aces as the type of guys I mentioned…or how pitchers are viewed as aces. On the other hand, how far back do you go? Is Lester an “ace” because he’s been outstanding the last two years?
I’m not really sure…in the scouting community, what is the big difference between a #1 and #2 starter? Is there one big factor (command, a #1 has a better slider, etc.) that separates them?
I would guess that scouts would refer to Z, Dempster, and Garza as #2 starters in that sense of the word. Which…is a pretty good thing, I’d say.
It is almost like there are two seperate categories, in my mind. There are #1 starters, and a subset of that group is the “Aces”, or the truly elite
by Wizard of Woz on Apr 5, 2011 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
someone should make a list of teams lacking a true ace. fine, i'll do it... sheeesh
Nats, Pirates, Stros, Reds, Cubs?, Orioles, Jays, Royals, Indians, Twins, Rangers, D’Backs… kinda’ torn on the Tigers, WhiteSox and Angels.
dang, seems like alot of teams out there DO HAVE ace(s)
Good list
Tigers DEFINITELY have one in Verlander. White Sox (especially them in this case), Angels, Twins, and Cubs seem to have the same thing: several above average pitchers who aren’t quite aces, but are definitely pretty good. The rest…well, I guess thats why there aren’t so many aces.
If all talent was distributed evenly..
The Phillies wouldn’t have 13.3% of the league’s 30 best starters lol.
Agreed
Which means that they actually have more then 1 “Ace”. Which is where we get into a discussion about a “real Ace”. Technically every team has an ace, just like every team has a clean up hitter. Where we run into issues is…
Sorry, just saw the lol, and realized your weren’t disputing me. I guess I could erase this, but documenting my dumbass-ness just seems more fitting.
by Wizard of Woz on Apr 4, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Moving this discussion to the Cards...
1B Cards by a smidge
2B Burgh
SS Push
3B Us
C Bad guys
LF Them
CF Us but close
RF I’ll say them but could easily be a push
Rotation is probably them just on the strength of Carpenter and Garcia but could easily implode
Bullpen us
4-5-1 final tally with a 40% chance to swing in our favor or even up.
I would probably say LF us
As of right now, just because Holliday is on the DL
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
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