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Bullpen A Problem?

Some interesting comments by Dejan Kovacevic on his blog:

Before the season, I listed middle relief as one of the Pirates' potential weaknesses, and that was not at all taking into account that Evan Meek would have the couple poor outings he has had. So far, I've seen little to change my mind.

I've given credit the past three years to Neal Huntington for having built reasonably good bullpens by cobbling together veterans at good value with good chemistry. No such credit was given this offseason, and it does not appear any is forthcoming.

That said, I wouldn't invest much energy in doubting Meek. He's way too talented, way too tough to allow this to beat him down.

 Am I missing something? What exactly has been so bad about the current bullpen? Meek's been awful, but I agree that he's not somebody to worry about long-term. Garrett Olson is a problem, but he's just a stopgap. That job was supposed to be Joe Beimel's. Not that I'm a big fan, but Beimel has been a mostly OK reliever for some time and he actually wants to pitch in Pittsburgh. He's also been a durable reliever, so his current issues weren't predictable.  Even if he doesn't make it back, Olson likely will be replaced in the short term by Dan Meyer or Scott Olsen, and in the long term by Dan Moskos or Tony Watson.

Beyond that, the very small sample size we’ve had so far has been encouraging. Chris Resop has been shaky, but he pitched very well late last year and I see no reason not to be optimistic about him. Jose Veras and Jeff Karstens have pitched very well, and Mike Crotta so far has been a very happy surprise. Maybe things will unravel eventually, or maybe not, but once you get beyond Meek, where's the big problem with the results so far? Is it the shortage of Veteran Presence? Are there too few guys with finely tuned tobacco-spittin' techniques that they can teach to the young 'uns? Are there people still, incredibly, wailing about the release of Brendan Donnelly?

I'm also puzzled by the idea that Huntington did well in constructing bullpens his first three years. Last year, sure, but those first two years . . . ? Was I hallucinating? Were Tyler Yates, Denny Bautista, Franquelis Osoria and Chris Bootcheck really not terrible? Wait . . . here it is: The Pirates were last in the NL in bullpen ERA in 2008 and next to last in 2009.

It seems to me that Huntington is finally getting it right. He's searching for guys with good arms who've been overlooked, like Resop, instead of guys with good arms who've simply been terrible long-term, like Bautista and Bootcheck. It'll always make sense to bring in a veteran arm or two, like Veras, but you can't build the bullpen every year strictly out of inexpensive veterans. For one thing, the better, established relievers are getting overpriced. The Pirates can't afford to sink a big chunk of their payroll into the bullpen. It'd be suicide for Huntington to start using Ed Wade as a role model.

For another, that's a very high-risk approach. Relievers by nature are highly erratic. The inexpensive ones are even more erratic.  If your bullpen is full of veterans, you can't juggle it during the season by sending somebody down. One of my criticisms of Huntington in the past was that he waited too long to ditch non-performing veterans like Bautista and Osoria. The problem, no doubt, was that they didn't have options. The erratic nature of relief pitching means that all bullpens should be regarded as works in progress, which requires a team to have talent available that has some roster flexibility. If Crotta struggles, he can be sent down and they can give Chris Leroux a chance. This gets easier if a team has a supply of good arms coming up through the minors. Huntington had little flexibility before because he inherited a farm with all the fertility of Mordor. That's changing now. Aside from Crotta, hopefully guys like Moskos, Watson, Diego Moreno and Brian Leach will provide possibilities, and there should be still more later. I'm encouraged, not discouraged, by the fact that Huntington is no longer set on Proven Veterans as the answer in the bullpen.

Comment 70 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Smizik

had a post up a week or two ago saying pretty much the same thing as DK. Come on, Dejan. You’re better than that.

by ElDuce on Apr 6, 2011 11:03 AM EDT reply actions  

whoa

Dejan’s coming from outta nowhere with this one. actually none of the three phases have been overly weak thus far. a few guys here and there havent come through but you’ll have plenty of that.

by theatrain on Apr 6, 2011 11:04 AM EDT reply actions  

I think this is the piece in question, but I can’t verify it because a page display error cuts off everything below “If there is a company of any kind in this town that is better at that than your favorite hockey team, I am unaware of it.”

Olson and Karstens are both pretty marginal arms to have in a pen, but Olson’s a third-string injury replacement and I’ve long since stopped trying to figure out what strange type of mind control Karstens uses to preserve his roster spot. Other than those two, the pen’s pretty strong – easily the best of the NH era.

Not Dejan’s strongest piece of analysis, IMO. Kind of felt like an argument that made up in vehemence what it lacked in evidentiary support.

by Vlad on Apr 6, 2011 11:11 AM EDT reply actions  

Dejan really seemed to get into the veteran leadership thing, with Donnelly in particular, so all I can think is that he doesn’t see that with this bullpen. Personally, I’d rather have guys who can pitch.

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.

by WTM on Apr 6, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed

Whatever unquantifiable benefit player “leadership” brings to a baseball team, the freaking bullpen is probably the last place you need it.

Plus, Donnelly could have been the Winston Churchill of baseball leadership wise, he still couldn’t get people out, or bring back anything in a trade.

Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly

by CTapps on Apr 6, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Which doesn't even get into the issue...

…of bringing in a “veteran leader” with a history of doctoring the ball, who was outed as a roid user in the Mitchell Report. What kind of stuff is a guy like that going to be teaching his young, impressionable teammates?

by Vlad on Apr 6, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

WTM's Dictionary of What Phrases Really Mean

Veteran Leadership or Veteran Presence — Old enough to have played with or against current manager and hasn’t played well since then.

Can Play a Lot of Positions — Can’t hit and owns several different gloves.

Innings Eater — Will consistently give you five losing innings.

Scrappy — White guy with no tattoos or talent.

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.

by WTM on Apr 6, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ha! Rec'd.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 6, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't recall that about Donnelly

It’s been a year, and he was very forgettable as a Pirate, but I don’t recall DK gushing over him. Link?

To be clear: I don’t know what DK was smoking when he wrote this. This bullpen doesn’t fill me with any confidence, but the only strong bullpen NH has assembled was last year’s (with, granted, one failure in Donnelly, but that’s inevitable). Indeed, NH’s first 2 bullpens were a big part of my doubt about his roster-assembly abilities.

I could see doubting the current pen; I can’t see comparing it unfavorably with NH’s first two. All I can think is that NH seemed weirdly passive with this year’s group, and so maybe it seems more hopeless than it actually is.

by JRoth95 on Apr 6, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Upon review, it looks like it was more of a Chuck Finder thing than a Dejan thing.

by Vlad on Apr 6, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I recall Dejan crediting Donnelly with mentoring Meek and Hanrahan. The comment about wailing in the OP was a reference to people on his blog and elsewhere who, incredibly, screamed and screamed about him getting released.

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.

by WTM on Apr 6, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

I can’t believe anyone cared about him being released. I mean, it would have been nice had he not sucked, but, well, he did.

by JRoth95 on Apr 6, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, for their purposes though

it was spun “smoothly” as the Nuttings releasing him before his incentives kicked in…

by BurgherKing on Apr 6, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 6, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

you weren't hallucinating

Wreck Specs really did suck, hence the fact that he has been out of baseball since the Pirates let him go in 2008

by gonfalon on Apr 6, 2011 11:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Not to mention that he's formally retired.

Even if they’d decided to keep him, he’d still be off planting flowers or buying Deca-Durabolin on the black market or whatever it is that he does in his free time.

by Vlad on Apr 6, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

The bullpen problem

It’s obviously the lack of the GREATEST LEFT-HANDED RELIEVER IN HISTORY who was traded for nothing but MONETARY PURPOSES, Javier Lopez.

Sigh.

http://www.whygavs.com
http://twitter.com/whygavs

by whygavs on Apr 6, 2011 11:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Alternate pointless wail

IF ONLY CRAIG HANSEN HAD TURNED INTO SOMETHING, MAYBE NEAL HUNTINGTON WOULDN’T BE A MORON

Double sigh

http://www.whygavs.com
http://twitter.com/whygavs

by whygavs on Apr 6, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

SALARY DUMP

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 6, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Follow up:

Bucs outright release Craig Hansen – DK’s tweeting that the only player left from the Bay trade is Morris.

Dejan_Kovacevic
  
Other three acquisitions in Bay trade — Hansen, Andy LaRoche, Brandon Moss — all released with no return. #Pirates

He sure dwells on that stuff, don’t he?

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 6, 2011 11:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Bet the Mets would love to release Bay, if they could release his contract with him.

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.

by WTM on Apr 6, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Get aht

Bay, Nady and McLouth were once revered in certain quarters as THE BEST HITTING OUTFIELD IN BASEBALL, the Mets must be thrilled to have part of that legacy.

by maguro on Apr 6, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

OMG

The Pirates could have traded Hansen for Jason Bay instead of releasing him. What were they thinking?

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Apr 6, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Or McLouth . . . .

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.

by WTM on Apr 6, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe both

As long as the Bucs would pick up the salaries.

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Apr 6, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sure the D-bags would trade us Nady too!

We could have the most productive bench in MLB!!

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.

by gorillakilla34 on Apr 6, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not that the Red Sox have anybody left either....

….but that’s not the point, I know.

Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly

by CTapps on Apr 6, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Technically

They have Bryce Brentz and Brandon Workman.

by ElDuce on Apr 6, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

In that case....

Booo Hisssss Boooo

Sale the Team!!

Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly

by CTapps on Apr 6, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of which:

Boy, did Brentz hit like crap last year. I wasn’t expecting that at all. Half of one bad season doesn’t totally bury a prospect, but when a polished bat-first college player puts up a sub-.600 OPS in the NY-P, that’s not a good sign.

by Vlad on Apr 6, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

brandon workman

i think he’s going to be a stud (if only in the pen)… donno much about Brentz

by BurgherKing on Apr 6, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oooh....something else fun

From Charlie’s article on the trade.

He’ll [Andy LaRoche] block Neil Walker, but he’s way better than Walker, so I have no problem with that.

This is nothing against Charlie because everyone in the world thought this at the time….just funny how quickly things change.

Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly

by CTapps on Apr 6, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was 100% on board with that opinion.

One of the reasons I have modified my prospect evaluations to take into consideration scouting reports more seriously, especially in the low minors.

Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you

by Scranton on Apr 6, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

"He sure dwells on that stuff, don’t he?"

For sure.
If he’s that hung up still on the Bay trade, I wonder how many restraining orders he has from ex-girlfriends…

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.

by gorillakilla34 on Apr 6, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well

he doesn’t exactly have a lot of winning baseball to dwell on, does he?

I mean, this is the sort of thing you talk (and think) about when the ML team does nothing but lose. And it’s not like he doesn’t talk about the future or organization-building, as trips to DR and Mexico and Houston show.

BTW, a group of people who are still bitter about Craig Wilson (and are convinced that Steve Pearce is the exact same player) don’t have a whole lot of room for sneering at anyone to get over anything.

by JRoth95 on Apr 6, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW, a group of people who are still bitter about Craig Wilson (and are convinced that Steve Pearce is the exact same player) don’t have a whole lot of room for sneering at anyone to get over anything.

I’ll make room for sneering at whomever I want, thanks.

by Vlad on Apr 6, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's why you bought that house, right?

“And you see, honey, right down the hall is a big room where I can just sneer and sneer.”

by JRoth95 on Apr 6, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's got walls of mirrors.

So I can do the infinite sneer, on occasions when an ordinary sneer just won’t do the trick.

by Vlad on Apr 6, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, JFC...

NOW, he’s re-running this piece from 2009.

…let it go, pal. Let. It. Go.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 6, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

BTW, just checked

Bay’s WAR for the BoSox: 6.1
The collective WAR (so far) for the Pirates: 0.9

So, if Morris produces a mere 5.3 WAR, the trade’s a win (financial considerations aside, since we all agree it wasn’t a salary move). What would that be – 3 seasons as a 3-4 SP? Seems reasonably likely.

by JRoth95 on Apr 6, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is why you get several young players in a deal. You only need to have one success to break even or come out ahead.

by Vlad on Apr 6, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is exactly what Huntington says in that piece: “Are they all going to hit? No.”

http://www.whygavs.com
http://twitter.com/whygavs

by whygavs on Apr 6, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you should probably take into account discount rates, position on the win curve, and things like that — if the WAR you’re trading comes this season and the next, and the WAR you get back comes in a few years, you’d hope to get more WAR back. Ditto if you’re trading WAR to a contender, who needs it more. OTOH the Pirates needed it less, since they weren’t contending those years no matter what Bay did.

By the way, Duke’s 2007-9 produced 5.2 (according to Fangraphs). So that’s what we’re shooting for.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Apr 6, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh sure

There’s the fact of when you want/need WAR (although that’s actually a wash if Morris hits – we want WAR in ‘11-’15, BOS wanted them in ‘08-’09), all sorts of considerations. But as just a raw comparison, it’s not too misleading

Great comp on Duke. That’s certainly not too much to expect/hope for from Morris.

by JRoth95 on Apr 6, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

This explains his hatred of prospects in general, eh?

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Apr 6, 2011 11:45 AM EDT reply actions  

Nothing but a bunch of young punks…

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.

by gorillakilla34 on Apr 6, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, the hatred of prospects was especially obvious

in the special trip that DK made to Mexico to write a glowing story about Heredia.

You people need to get some perspective.

by JRoth95 on Apr 6, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do you mean ‘you people’?

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Apr 6, 2011 12:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Everyone here

who’s piling on DK as if he’s the second coming of Smizik.

He writes a lot of stuff, positive and negative, about this team and this FO. Every time he writes something negative, a dozen or more people here jump on him, not for analytic errors (although WTM covered that in this post, and rightly so), but for “playing to the yinzers” or being in love with McLouth or whatever else. It’s ridiculous.

by JRoth95 on Apr 6, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Yeah, I would agree

I’ve read a ton of DK’s work last year in PBC, and he simply falls on the other side of the fence in that he’s a bit more, would you say cautious towards the Bucs and their personnel moves, but he has anything but a hidden “agenda” or anything else that commenters are suggesting in this thread.

I think it doesn’t help that his comments come sounding like a lot of the piling-on’ers who simply harp about the beaten horse that is the Bay trade, though his intentions and opinions aren’t part of a bigger plan.

We don’t agree, and we’ve known that since he began writing on the subject last year. Let’s just move on.

by mattygabe on Apr 6, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m sure Dejan has many wonderful qualities, but his continuing obsession with Baynadymcclouth Pirates of 07-08 has become kind of embarrassing. At some point, you have to move on.

by maguro on Apr 6, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ehhh

I don’t really buy that. He’s written great prospect pieces and doesn’t seem like a guy who hates prospects getting chances. He pushed Walker etc. last year.

If anything, he just overvalues guys that were here for a bit of time, which perhaps makes you feel that way.

by Slizeezyc on Apr 6, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh, I know. It was sort of tongue-in-cheek considering his stance of our trading veterans for prospects over the past couple of years.

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Apr 6, 2011 12:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.

by WTM on Apr 6, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly

by CTapps on Apr 6, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 6, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

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