SB Nation Pittsburgh Editor's Pick
The Jose Bautista Trade And An Implicit Criticism Of The Front Office
by epoc on May 16, 2011 3:11 PM EDT
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PrintCharlie's earlier post about the Bautista trade was good, and I generally agree with everything he wrote. However, I think his post contains an implicit criticism that I'd like to make explicit here.
Charlie asks, in the title of his post, whether the decision to trade Jose Bautista was "defensible." He concludes that it was, but I'd like to point out that "defensible" is not the same as "good." Yeah, trading Bautista was defensible, but as Charlie points out (and as Dejan Kovacevic has been at pains to point out via Twitter) the return for Bautista wasn't very good. Maybe trading Bautista was okay, and maybe they couldn't have gotten much more than they did at the time, but that doesn't make it a good trade.
I think that it's worth noting after three and a half years that too many of Huntington's decisions and deals have been "defensible," while an alarming few of them have been actually "good." The Bautista trade, the Jason Bay trade, the Ryan Church signing, the Ramon Vazquez signing, the Lyle Overbay signing, the failure to sign Tanner Scheppers, the failure to sign Miguel Sano, the pick of Tony Sanchez, the non-tender of Matt Capps, etc., etc. Yeah, you can mount intelligent defenses of all these deals, but none of them were really "good" moves. None of them really improved the talent level or future outlook of the organization in any meaningful way. You can argue that no one could have seen Bautista's breakout coming, or that Sanchez allowed us to take more overslot players later in that draft, but the fact that you have to mount arguments in favor of these moves is already an implicit admission that these aren't great moves. They're defensible, but that's about all you can say for them.
The moves Huntington has made that have been genuinely good are few and far between: the Octavio Dotel trade, the Chris Snyder trade, drafting Stetson Allie, the Xavier Nady deal. Maybe a few others. I guess you could add drafting Pedro Alvarez and Jameson Taillon, though taking the best player available in the draft should be too normal to be praiseworthy. I don't think Huntington has done too many things that were downright bad, either. But when you have a track record of "defensible" moves and 100-loss seasons, I think some criticism is warranted.
All that said, I'm not anti-front office by any means. I think Huntington has the right plan for this organization and I think he's a fairly smart guy. I'm not sure there are many guys who could do a whole lot better with the Pirates than he has, given his financial constraints and the state of the organization when he took over. I don't necessarily think he should be fired; but I don't necessarily think he should be retained. I don't want this to come off as a broad post about Huntington's ability as a GM. Too often these discussions get bogged down by pro- vs. anti-front office rhetoric, with the stupid #alltradesweregood hash tags and crap like that. I don't know whether Huntington is ultimately a good or bad GM. But I do think that at some point, defensiveness has to become evidence to the contrary of the position defended.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Thanks, epoc. I took out your reference to the McLouth deal, because I figured everybody would jump all over you for that one and it would distract from your overall point, which I think is a reasonable one. Feel free to add an addendum if you feel really passionate about it, but my thought is that everyone would just be like, “What are you talking about? McLouth is terrible and that trade was obviously good.”
by Charlie Wilmoth on May 16, 2011 3:36 PM EDT reply actions
By the way, that #alltradesaregood thing Dejan does really is annoying. I wonder how defensively he’d react if someone created a simplistic and insulting Twitter hashtag about him.
by Charlie Wilmoth on May 16, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
DK on Twitter
I actually unfollowed DK a few months ago because I found most of his tweets snarky and thought that any really valuable ones would be retweeted by others. I decided to refollow him just so I can see any twitter beefs that he might be having with bloggers.
by PSUJim on May 16, 2011 3:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm pretty snarky too.
Will you follow me for the soul purpose of unfollowing me later?
There is no love in the World. There's only pain.
by IAPiratesFan on May 16, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t go as far as to say that drafting Sanchez wasn’t a good move. Some may have seen it as a reach but if he was really the top player on their board and becomes an above average catcher or better it will definitely be a good move. I’m not saying it couldn’t turn out to be bad but I think it’s still a little early to judge that one.
by thefutureisnear on May 16, 2011 3:38 PM EDT reply actions
Its like a garage sale
On one hand, you can hold a garage sale, and squeeze every last penny out of teh junk you don’t want anymore. On the other hand, you can just pack it all up and take it to your local GoodWill. Either way, you just got rid of a painting that had an original copy of the Declaration of Independence behind the canvas. Sure, you lost out, but best case scenario, you were only going to get 5 bucks for that velvet Elvis anyway.
by Wizard of Woz on May 16, 2011 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Pantheon of bad analogies
The idea of having a velvet Elvis is kind of funny, but otherwise that comment goes down in the pantheon of bad analogies.
by Fat Jimmy on May 16, 2011 5:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
not rec'd
time to have a cat scan, the tumor is as big as an egg….
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on May 17, 2011 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Tom Waits?
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on May 17, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
premature postulation
meant to say, I’d rec that ten times if I could.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on May 17, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
yep
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on May 17, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup...
although the odds of finding the copy of the Declaration are probably better than the odds of Bautista becoming a 50+ HR hitter !
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
I sure as hell hope so
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Rec'd
Awesome.
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on May 17, 2011 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Good post
I was thinking of posting something along these lines myself, but you’ve done it much better than I would have.
Even picking Alvarez is starting to look not so hot right now.
In my opinion, the majority of the moves he’s made have been not only defensible, but eminently reasonable, and yet here we are three years later and almost none of them have really panned out. Is he bad or just unlucky?
How much longer does he get?
I don’t know…3 years of moves is a pretty decent sample size when it comes to moves made by GMs. Drafting…yes, it’ll take a few more years.
by Thunder on May 16, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
very small sample size
Like Bobby Cox says 5-7 to rebuild, yes that 5 year time is coming up… but with this team its defiantly the upper.
Problem is....
not all transactions are weighed equally. Having 3/4’s of the Jason Bay trade bust is hurting this organization much more than the Snyder deal helped it. Losing Bautista hurt this organization much more than the Jack Wilson/Ian Snell trade helped it. You can’t just place all transactions on one side of the ledger and see which side has more check marks.
Do you really believe the loss of Bautista with nothing in return hasn’t hurt this organization? Do you really believe having only one oft injured and unspectalar pitcher who has yet to pitch above AA to show for the Pirates best trading chip hasn’t hurt this organization? Just because those two were part of losing teams, doesn’t excuse the fact they were flipped for almost nothing.
I agree with your Jason Bay point...
to the extent that he was NH’s best trading chip, and having nothing but Morris to show for it is less than ideal. I won’t agree with Bautista though, because if he stays with the Pirates, there is no guarentee that he makes the same adjustment and takes off. The Blue Jays caught lightning in a bottle, and if we could get this version of Joey Bats back, yes, we would be better off…but I would say it is way more than highly likely that he never becomes this version of himself if he stays with the Pirates
Even had he performed at the level he did when the Pirates had him...
he’d have been more productive than most of the guys we’ve had on the bench since then.
On the bench?
How about playing 3B in place of Andy and RF in place of Moss, Church, and Diaz?
If NH had signed even 2 decent bench players in the 2.5 years since JB left, I’d be more open to the idea that he offered no value to this org.
For crying out loud, 1/3 of the jokes on this blog are about Doug Mientkiewicz, but suddenly he becomes an obviously preferable choice over Bautista so that we can defend the precious NH (who, PS, signed Dougie) against suggestions that his trade record is less than A++.
whoa, whoa, whoa, little fella
thunder said “he’d have been more productive than most of the guys weve had on the bench”, as in keeping Bautista as a utility guy. which means his numbers would have gone DOWN with less PA’s.
thats all im sayin.
Less productive
“How about playing 3B in place of Andy and RF in place of Moss, Church, and Diaz?”
Well, the hypothetical is “even had he performed at the level he did when the Pirates had him.” According to fangraphs he was worth less a a Pirate than Andy LaRoche was, by WAR. So yes, if he had performed at the level he did with the Pirates, he would have been less productive playing 3B in place of Andy.
(I know that WAR is imprecise, especially because of the problems with UZR, and I hate to use it as a conversation-ender. But it’s important to note that it’s by no means obvious that Pirate-Bautista was better than Pirate-Andy, and that’s with Luigi turning out to be a massive bust.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on May 16, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
forget the bench
the level of performance he had with the Pirates would be better Overbay right now.
no, what would hurt the franchise more is standing pat with those "allstars"
the loss of Bautista has NOT hurt this organization at all, for the simple fact that you have no idea if Joeybats would have put those numbers up while playing for the pirates.
its hard to get back something of value when no one thinks much of what youre selling.
If you don’t believe losing one of the best hitters in the game for a third string catcher hurt a rebuilding team, I don’t know what to tell you. I honestly can’t believe anyone actually thinks this way. Unbelievable.
by BillMadlock on May 16, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I want to break your idiot teeth, but I agree with this. I’d rather have Bautista than not have him.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Tone it way down, please, ryebr3ad.
by Charlie Wilmoth on May 16, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
The point he is making is that he wasn’t one of the best hitters in the game when they lost him and that it is highly doubtful that he would have become one of the best hitters in the game if they had not lost him.
As Charlie pointed out in his post, Bautista had been approached about “fixing” his swing previously in his career. For whatever reason, he was unable to make the correction. Maybe he didn’t want to while with the Pirates, I have no idea.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 16, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Bautista was not one of the best hitters in the game
if you guessed he would become what he is today, you should sign off and go play Lotto, cuz we are all beneath your intelligence… oh wise one.
Why should I have predicted he become of the best hitters in the game. Isn’t that the job of…..I don’t know…..the general manager.
by BillMadlock on May 16, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And the general managers of 22 other MLB teams that passed on him in waivers? I guess they all need to be fired, since they could have had one of the best hitters in the game for a PTBNL.
Did Jose Bautista play 7 years in those other organizations and amass more than 1300 at bats?
How good Bautista became is only salt on the wound. He was good enough to keep in 2008 or at least good enough to not throw away for Robinzon Diaz. The fact he was and Pirates didn’t have a clue what they had in him is inexcusable. The fact other teams also missed this from a distance doesn’t change that fact. Add in how the trade was primarily done because of financial reasons and how the Pirates didnt’ like his attitude, I’m shocked anyone with a brain would defend it.
I’m shocked anyone with a brain can’t see our point of view. But, as mentioned below, you just seem to derive into being an ill-talker of the Pittsburgh Pirates. No wonder you accuse everyone here of being apologists — you exist to be the exact opposite, and can’t fathom any in-between.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
And in those 1300 at bats
he put up an OPS+ of 91 and a cumulative (across 5 MLB seasons) WAR of 0.4 (if you like Fangraphs) or -1.1 (if you like B-R). He was the very definition of a replacement-level player.
If you want to argue that the Pirates should have persevered more than seven years to unlock his hidden potential, fine. I may not agree, but at least there’s an argument to be made.
But you can’t say that his play to that point merited keeping him any more than it merited keeping any other replacement-level player the Pirates had kicking around. And you can’t say they should have gotten something better than Robinzon Diaz – 22 other MLB GMs had the opportunity to claim him and make an offer, and didn’t.
BULLSHIT
If you have to include his disastrous Rule 5 year to make your point, then your point is wrong.
DG Lewis = somebody whose evidence shouldn’t be trusted, because he’ll manipulate it to make his point. Noted.
'Scuse?
If BillMadlock can refer to “seven years in the Pirates’ organization and 1300 MLB at-bats” to make his point that the Pirates should have known better, I’m going to include the same data to make my point that he was replacement-level for the portion of that time he spent in the majors.
“Manipulating data” would be if I were to exclude some of the data to try to make my point.
If you want, I could manipulate the data and exclude that “disastrous Rule 5” year. In which case in his six years and 1260 at bats in the Pirates organization, he accumulated 0.8 WAR (Fangraphs) or -0.9 WAR (B-R).
Or I could exclude 2005 as well, giving him the same 0.8 WAR (Fangraphs) or -0.7 WAR (B-R).
It’s still replacement-level to me.
by DG Lewis on May 16, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you don't
As I say upthread, in Bautista’s years as a Pirate (not his rule 5 year), by fangraphs WAR he was worse than Andy LaRoche in his years as a Pirate.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on May 16, 2011 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree...
Bautista never even had a full year in AAA. If I remember correctly, the Rule 5 debacle was 2004 (no minor leage ABs), 2005 he put up a great line in AA (.503 SLG) and then the Pirates moved him to the majors in 2006. He basically went from AA to the majors while taking a year off developmentally. Bautista’s performance before he was traded was not the end of the story AND like BillMadlock said, just because other teams missed Bautista’s evaluation in no one exonerates NH.
Did Jose Bautista play 7 years in those other organizations and amass more than 1300 at bats?
…During which time he hit .240/.329/.395. He wasn’t good, let alone great.
Oh, but
by including his disastrous Rule 5 year, you’re manipulating evidence to make your point. If you exclude that, his slash line is an overwhelming .242/.326/.408. Those 13 points of ISO clearly should have indicated to the FO that he was poised to break out in another two years.
Neal’s done that…he kept Walker around, gave him chances to keep hitting in AAA, and he’s slowly becoming one of the best offensive second basemen in the game due to him finally figuring out the virtues of plate patience.
Granted, he was already in the system, but he was a guy out of favors that found his abilities.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
And if Iwamura would have hit .240, Walker would likely have spent all of last season in Indianapolis playing 4 different positions.
Fortunately for Walker, Iwamura hit .160.
by Thunder on May 16, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m sure a guy with 1.000+ OPS in AAA at the time would be blocked from the major league roster in any instance.
Nice try.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Whats your point?
If Iwamura was succesful, why would it be bad to have NFWs bat in the OF?
its unbelievable, really
I mean, you keep talking as if Bautista figuring it out wasn’t random chance, and as if every FO wouldn’t have let a Bautista player go at that point, or in a year. Either you should be warned now that the world isn’t as simple as you seem to think, or you display extreme intellectual dishonesty.
And if Bautista figuring it out wasn’t random chance, then obv it was TBJ’s coaches. In that case, too, he wouldnt have figured it out in Pitt. You need it laid out for you? Really?
"Random chance"?
Do you know what that phrase means? Finding the Declaration of Independence in a garage sale frame is random chance. Identifying transcendent talent in your own organization shouldn’t be random chance. Dave Littlefield’s circus of clowns figured out that Bautista was worth having because he was more talented at baseball than all but ~300 humans on earth. NH decided to trade him for someone who’s not even in the top 1,000.
by JRoth95 on May 16, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yes, i know what random chance means
I find it funny that you brought this up- “Finding the Declaration of Independence in a garage sale frame is random chance.” – something someone used earlier to say how unlikely JB’s performance was. I agree.
i have no idea why think that the value of talent stays constant over time. Bautista was talented in 2004, when a few OK years would have been acceptable, while we waited for the talent to blossom. If you’ve been out there 3 years, show no signs of improving, then it’d be pretty stupid to not acknowledge that the chances of not reaching the potential have significantly increased. In 2008, after 3 years of replacement level performance, it’s certainly fair to consider cutting bait. If you want to think of JB v.2008 as transcendent talent, go ahead, but the probability that any fixes would have made him a 2.5+ WAR player suddenly would have been pretty close to random.
Wasn't it Littlefields clowns...
that let Batista go in the Rule 5 in the first place? The problem I see isn’t the return Huntington received because obviously that was his market value at the time but rather why he felt he had to trade him. Huntington demoted him to AAA for reportedly saying he thought he was an everydday player. I can’t help but think there was more going on behind the scenes but I have no evidence to support that. I felt at the time that Batista would have made a decent utility player so I didn’t feel he needed to be traded. So I do think it was a bad trade in that respect. I also knew nothing of Diaz at the time other than he was a catcher and that the Pirates needed catching help. That’s probably one reason I wasn’t that upset with the deal. But to make the trade out to be some kind of disaster is going over the top imo. 75% of the talent evaluators misjudged Batista’s ceiling. I would hardly categorize this as some epic fail on Huntington’s part. A fail? yes. Anything more than that is hyperbole.
Seriously
what return were the Bucs gonna get for Bautista AT THAT TIME ? Absolutely noone wanted him !
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
It's simple
Then you don’t trade him. You let him become a super sub and you don’t sign garbage like Eric Hinske, Ramon Vazquez, Craig Monroe, Ryan Church and Bobby Crosby. Who knows, maybe Bautista figures out whatever he needed to figure out as a Pirates. But instead, he did it as a Blue Jay and we all now have the wonderful memmory of guys like Ryan Church. Yay!!!!
It’s been settled! Don’t dump replacement level players, because one of every 50,000 might become great! And if you do dump a replacement level player, don’t replace him with other replacement level players!
You have no idea what you’re talking about, so thanks for clearing that up.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
If the odds are truly 1 in every 50,000, you got that right. Because every single player I mentioned that the Pirates did bring in offered 0% chance.
By the way, you’re kinda cute when you get all angry.
I’m actually lounging with my feet up at work typing this, but I do tend to do that when I’m angry.
Also, the players the Pirates brought in offer a 0% chance to blossom because they didn’t blossom when they were here. Granted, no one expected any of them to blossom into anything, but there was still a chance that Ryan Church would put it together.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
can we all agree...
that until the Blue Jays staff fixed his swing there was nothing ‘super’ about Bautista’s game?
I would argue he excelled at being super frustrating.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 16, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
its hard to be a super sub when your manager wants to take YOU out of the game for a defensive replacement
and not the other way around.
The point is, he could have had a role with the Pirates and possibly discovered whatever it was he needed to discover in becoming a great hitter as a Pirate. Unfortunately he wasn’t given that opporntunity and we had two wonderfull months of Robinzon Diaz and you get to hear me complan about it.
How’s that working out?
You could say that about absolutely every player in the Majors.
But the a roster limit
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
No, you can say it about young players who have shown a hint of talent. You can’t say it about aging vets like Overbay, Diaz, Church, Crosby, Iwamura, Vazquez, Chris Gomez, Craig Monroe, Luis Rivas and Jason Michaels.
But it can be argued that Bautista wasn’t that young, and really didn’t show much talent (and he still can’t hit for average). And then there’s the whole steroids question, which is a different matter altogether
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
You’re right the steriod question is a different matter entirely.
But he was young as he was only 27 years old when they traded him. That’s only one year older than Brandon Wood, who they shouldn’t dismiss either.
if wood keeps dropping that right elbow on his swing and having his number inflated because of bloop singles
then he shall be gone too
Wood has a lot to prove as he hasn’t been remotely as productive as Bautista was as a Pirate. However, if Wood does show some flashes, I’d be pissed as hell if they dump him next year and sign someone like Mark DeRosa.
if wood is NOT a starter next year, why does it matter?
replacing a young and actually GOOD starter i agree with, like the aramis debacle. but if wood isnt good enough to start over cedeno, then why lose any sleep if hes let go?
upside is only worth it if the dude is playing, IMO. upside doesnt mean shat if your on the bench spittin seeds at the back of Ritchie’s nogin
I disagree...
I think the bench is exactly where you need the upside types. There’s no risk having them there. I’d much rather have a bench of Wood’s, Milledge’s, Clement’s and Batista’s over Gomez, Rivas, Hinske or Mientjdslvic types (stil can’t spell his name). This way you at least have an opportunity for a player to have that surprise breakthrough season. They always get opportunity to play whether through injury or a starter struggling. If they don’t break through no harm done. Cut them and pick someone else up next season.
upside guys need to play
i see no reason for guys like Presley or d’arnaud to sit on the bench in Pittsburgh when they can be working on their game and waiting for their chance in Indy.
Our pitchers do it. Do we put Owens, Wilson or Morris in our bullpen or do we keep them ready in the minors?
and i prefer the spelling “Mint-k-witch”
Generally agree, but
I’d point to the McLouth trade as a clear win. Also the Scheppers non-signing is looking like a smart decision, based both on the process (not overpaying for risk) and the results (he’s 24, injured, and has a limited track record). Talent is good, but only when priced appropriately for the given risk.
charity standing orders
Yeah, but who did we sign instead of Scheppers?
Victor Black, and he’s injured and done even less in the minors than Scheppers to boot.
But, Black...
is a separate case. You didn’t know who you were going to get when you had to make the decision on Scheppers so you have to look at it independently. It looks like a good decision.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
I can't agree
If the decision not to sign Scheppers looks good because of his subsequent injuries, you have to question whether it was a good decision to draft him in the first place.
The only way I could look at the Scheppers sequence of events as a positive is if they’d signed someone more promising with the 09 comp pick.
I could be mistaken, but I believe the general consensus is to take someone safe with a comp pick since they wouldn’t have gotten a second comp pick if they failed to sign Black. Regardless, he was taken with something like the 50th pick and was the 51st rated prospect by BA. He was taken almost exactly where he was rated.
Sure
That is just another of the very reasonable, defensible moves he’s made that just haven’t worked out.
Not that the return rate on 2nd round draft choices is particularly high, but the whole Scheppers – Black sequence of events isn’t really anything that the front office can point to as a success.
I’d say drafting him was a reasonable, defensible move that just didn’t work out.
Not signing him based on the information available at the deadline was a reasonable, defensible move that now seems like a good decision. The main thing I’m trying to point out is that the fact that we let a prospect with his upside slip away is NOT a failure in any way, as epoc seems to be implying.
Maybe I’m looking for victories that are too small. Ultimately, I think NH is doing about as good a job as can be expected and that we’re reading too much into a couple outcomes from stochastic processes and black swans like Bautista.
Hey, is anyone else excited about Charlie Morton?
charity standing orders
Problem....
is they couldn’t give him a physical before the draft as I understand it, so they took a risk.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
that may not be true
Scheppers replacement isnt a funtion of draft slot only, its also a function of money. Maybe we used the money for Black + Cunningham?
My recollection is that they took some of Scheppers money and spent it on Quinton Miller. This could be wrong, though, my memory ain’t what it used to be.
in any event
I dont think Cunningham’s bonus was that high anyway. But my point really relates to the fact that maybe they spent the money elsewhere, and talent came out of it. If you want to be optimistic, look back 5 years later, and say it went to Black + most successful guy in 08+09. If you want to be pessimistic, say it went to Black + some expensive bust. All I’m saying is you can’t just trade Scheppers for Black, and close the book on it.
Is there a beat writer that you guys like?
Also, I don’t want to get myself to bogged down in this one, but, “[T]he fact that you have to mount arguments in favor of these moves is already an implicit admission that these aren’t great moves,” and, “But I do think that at some point, defensiveness has to become evidence to the contrary of the position defended,” are about the most on the nose words I’ve ever read when it comes to defining my opinion of this team. Thank you epoc, may I subscribe to your newsletter?
Is there a beat writer that you guys like?
I think the general consensus on this site was that DK was a good beat writer. He should have stuck to it.
I love his writing...
I’m just not sure how “thoughtful” his opinions are lately. They seem to more driven out of personal feeling than objective thought imo. Either way I don’t care it’s his blog. He can post what he wants. I just don’t like his general tone lately. He’s way too quick to label people that don’t agree with him. That said his writing, especially his player pieces, is top notch.
That said...
I don’t think he is known front office hater like some say he is. I do think he dislikes Huntington on a personal level. It would seem that Huntington feels the same way about Dejan.
I think NH’s greatest characteristic so far has been his lack of concern for public opinion when making moves. The organization needed to be completely torn down and rebuilt from scratch and no one prior to NH seemed to have the cojones to deal with the public fallout associated with actually doing it. Many fans over the years have complained about how horribly run the franchise has been, but few actually seem to have the stomach for what a full tear down entails.
Many of his acquisitions at the ML level have given cause for concern, and it remains to be seen how successful his drafts have actually been, but for now, i’m really glad NH has the job. I think NH should have at least 2-3 more years on the job when some of his draftees have had a realistic shot of making it to the majors. The homegrown talent is who will ultimately determine the success of the franchise.
by McGreal on May 16, 2011 4:13 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd
Well said.
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on May 16, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
+50
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on May 16, 2011 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent post
I don’t agree with your assessment of some of the moves you cite, but I think the overall point is excellent and I say that as generally a fan of Huntington.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
Re: the draft
As thefutureisnear said above, the Pirates viewed Sanchez as the BPA during that spot in the draft. Further down your post, you mention that taking the BPA in the draft should be a normal occurrence and as such, not worthy of praise. I agree with the latter part completely. It’s hard for us to sit here and speculate what the front office was thinking during a given draft, but if they thought Sanchez was the BPA, should we give them a hard time for taking him? Also, I think it says something about the previous FO that Pirate fans DO get excited about taking the BPA. At least we can count on that.
And a general question, but I seem to remember some issues with Bautista (he was being a jerk, unhappy, something like that) immediately prior to his trade. Does anyone remember this? If so, it might have played a role in his being traded for a bag of moldy donuts.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 16, 2011 4:16 PM EDT reply actions
He expressed...
his dissatisfaction with his playing time and eventually got sent down before being traded. I don’t think that it is much of a leap to suggest, particularly because it was post-trade deadline, that this was the driving event behind the trade.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
Should ANYONE be happy about being benched and then sent down?? One thing that has been made clear is that if you don’t toe the company line, you pay for it. It’s just a question of how much. Sometimes it is a benching for a game or two…sometimes it’s a lot more than that.
bowker wasnt pleased...
and after 29 other teams said no thanks, john is back in Indy hoping for another chance
so it's kinda' like having a job in the real world?
bautista and torres were both causing problems for mgt. at that time and there for were effectively fire from the Pirates. I however saw Bautista doing this because Mrs Cleo told me when I called her mearly three years ago.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
epoc, how could you be so wrong in the Alvarez thread, but so right on this one?
Well written and reasoned.
Really good post
I don’t think the Overbay and Capps moves were defensible, but that’s a minor quibble.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
So a question
that I really don’t have the energy to research myself:
What percentage of deals, decisions, or trades made by an MLB front office are “good”? And how does the Pirates FO compare to that yardstick?
excellent post
I stayed out of the Batista thread for the most part because I couldn’t quite settle on what I wanted to say.. thankfully you did it for me. Recd.
How do you plan on holding the front office accountable?
I agree that a defense can be mounted for most of the moves mentioned in Epoc’s post. However, at a certain point either your front office can make good moves that improve the club or they can’t. I haven’t seen improvement at all, in fact I see a team that is destined for 95 losses and no impact talent in the upper levels of the minors.
At what point do we determine that Huntington is merely re-shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic and doesn’t have the ability to improve the team? I haven’t seen anything that distinguishes this group positively in the Front Office whatsoever, all they have done is proven they aren’t the embarassment Littlefield was previously.
Is it just me or is “hold accountable” so overused these days that it’s almost completely devoid of meaning? Seriously, unless you’re in a position to fire NH, how else could you possibly hold him accountable? Does talking tough on the internet count? If so I hope that’s the worst accountability I have to face if I ever screw up at my job.
By accountable, I mean that he gets fired
On this board you would be hard pressed sometimes to get anyone to acknowledge that the major league product absolutely stinks. Huntington didn’t invent rebuilding through the draft and international signings and the evidence would indicate that he and his staff are incapable of pulling it off successfully. As the general manager he is responsible for bringing in an Aki who is grotesquely overweight or giving away Bautista for a less valuable player and in my opinion this has more to do with bad scouting and poss decision making than bad luck.
Why can’t we get someone in the GM position who has built a winning team or who has made decisions that have improved teams? Huntington may have doen some things well but unless I see improvement, we can get a guy who does his job a lot better.
3 years of drafts, dack!!! 3 f-ing years!!!
whats the average amount of time a drafted player spends in the minor leagues?
even MVP’s spend a great deal of time, like Rollins and Howard on the phillies.
granted, some players like Pujols jump out at ya, but that is so rare.
It would seem that Coonelly...
feels Huntington is doing a good job. Or at least he thinks he is doing a better job than you do. Most likely Coonelly realizes that rebuilds don’t happen over night, realizes that good and bad moves have been made but likes the overall direction of the organization and is content to give Huntington an appropriate amouint of time to see his plan through. For the record, Coonelly has not extended Huntington so it would seem that he is being held accountable. It looks like this is an important year for him. I would expect that if the team, particularly the Core 4, don’t take significant steps forward this year that Huntington will not be back. Oh and just so you know, accountability is not makirng a move like terminating a GM because that’s what the public wants. Thank God for that too because most of the general public is stupid (don’t mean you dack); why else do you think the electoral college exists?
Interestingly...
the one of the Core 4 that is actually performing is the one that NH couldn’t find a position for, until one of his acquisitions crashed and burned spectacularly.
and it WAS mr huntington who had Walker move to 2B permanently in Indy more than 2 weeks before he got the call to the show
all hale NH!!!
Wow…an entire 2 weeks. More like a desperation move when Iwamura was well below the Mendoza line and fielding like a statue.
holyshitball, batman
how can you have sarcasm at that??? they let walker get accustomed to 2B as much as they possibly could and then promoted him.
so what the hell is wrong with that?
What were they supposed to do?
Start Walker at 2B just in case Iwamura failed, despite the fact that Walker had showed no signs of being capable of handling an every-day role until that time? I see you criticize things a lot. I rarely see you offer a suggestion of what should have been done instead.
given that half of the core 4
were people NH couldnt find a position for, when he came in, it seems even chances that that half would be actually performing at any given point in time.
ehh...
unlike you I think NH should get credit for his handling of Walker. When he showed he was ready they gave him an opportunity and unlike Laroche, Milledge, Clement, etc, Walker took advantage of it. I have no problem with that.
Gave him an opportunity....
is probably rewriting history a bit. When he was called up, NH said he would be a corner guy with spot starts all over the diamond. Aki’s spectacular failure adn injuries and Walker’s good production got him the starting job within 2 weeks.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
That's the opportunity I was speaking of...
I don’t think that’s a rewrite. Aki’s complete flame out accelerated the process. Fact is NH brought up Walker when it appeared Walker was ready. He was finding a spot for him to get at bats in the majors by making him a utility player. Nothing wrong with that. I don’t understand how people don’t credit Huntington for this. DK doesn’t either. If Huntington would have given up on Walker he would have been a bench player when Pedro reached in Indy, or traded. But he was given the opportunity to play every day. The mere fact that Walker was called up at all shows Huntington had not given up on him. I don’t get it. Walker did start the beginning of the year in Pittsburgh because at the point in his career he hadn’t earned it.
I generally...
agree. My main point is it wasn’t planned. The Pirates didn’t have a plan if Aki failed. They got lucky. LaRoche never took groundballs at second even though everyone in the world knew Pedro was coming up. That still amazes me. I don’t know if you blame NH, JR or LaRoche himself for that, but that was just dumb.
You are right that NH kept him around and his performance has been solid, but a week or two before being called up he was getting starts at third, first, left. If they thought he was going to be the guy he would have been playing second everyday in Indy. He wasn’t
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
Agreed...
though I remember him getting a couple weeks of everyday reps. I’m nitpicking though, I get your general point. He wasn’t a backup plan coming into the season.
just like no one saw Bautista explode, no one saw Iwamura plummeting as he did
Walker was a man obsessed last April. He took advantage of Aki’s fat assedness and now he has a chance to be an allstar in 2011.
i don't know...
that nobody saw Aki plummet ahead of time…
Drafted players take time to develop, I agree
However, I have seen a lot of indications that lead me to believe that the current regime don’t have what it takes to put together a winning major league team. it takes a lot more than drafting well. I don’t say fire today but unless there is some improvement in the near future, lets take these “good” drafts and find a GM who has track record of building major league teams with major league talent instead of settling for weak defenses of poor major league roster management.
You’re right, NH DIDN’T invent rebuilding through the draft and international signings. However, he IS the first Pirates GM who has done it in a long, long time. Sometimes I wonder if I support NH more than I would in another situation just because it’s so refreshing to finally have someone with a logical plan in place in the FO.
That’s also what should be in the balance whether NH is resigned for 2012 and beyond. He’s the first of our last 3 GM ready to blow up an under-performing team and start from scratch. That needed to be done.
Now, if he’s let go after 2011, maybe our future GM can follow the same plan, but get better results in FA signings and trades. Problem is : you can never be sure of that !
So, do you want to take the risk to replace a decent/good GM with another guy who has a 50% chance to be better, but also a 50% chance to be worse ? (rhetorical question)
I don't see how we can just evaluate NH's draft choices from the standpoint of #1s.
To rebuild the organization, they’ve made big investments in a lot of guys we may not know much about for 3-5 years.
Sanchez and Alvarez may be good, maybe not. We need a good deal more time to see.
Dave Littlefield looks O.K. right now to some extent with his #1s, with Walker, Cutch and Moskos contributing, and perhaps Lincoln just about to return.
There have been a number of questionable-to-bad trades and FA moves by Neal Huntington, and getting nothing for Capps doesn’t look good at all.
In the end, I don’t really care if NH is gone at the end of the year. The most important thing has been to rebuild the organization the only way it can be done so the Pirates can have some winning seasons, and I think the drafts and international signings, along with a renewed commitment to player development, has a chance to get the organization somewhere other than perpetual losing.
patt, its amazing to me that people either forget and dont realize that it takes years for drafted players to make an impact in the major leagues
Pedro’s time frame is out of the norm; most take up to 5 or 6 years to make a dent. but NH should have had more MLB success with drafts after only 3 years?
insanity.
Then why is almost everyone (except me and a few others) counting on Rendon being in Pittsburgh by 2013??
Because coming into the year Rendon...
was supposed to be better than Pedro. With Rendon’s fielding and contact skills I think he is still on the Pedro timeline meaning a June/July call to the big team in 2013.
So we should expect our #1 pick this season to be in the majors in 2013?? Because if it isn’t Rendon, it’s supposedly someone better. Or are we not taking the best player available??
It depends on the pick...
if it’s Hultzen or Cole than yeah, maybe if all goes according to plan. If it’s a HS player than no.
Thunder, really
you are one of the few reasonably sane completely-critical-of-FO guys around. Please don’t make bullshit arguments to be contrary, we get enough trolls as it is.
(bullshit as used above was not meant to be offensive)
See...BK...I have a bit of a problem.
I’m told that we can’t assess a draft until after 5 or 6 years of waiting. I’m told we cannot assess a GM until his draft classes develop.
So I am expected to ignore the very poor player acquisition record of NH, and ignore the lack of success of a large segment of Neal’s draft classes to this point.
Should I recommend NH be extended because he’s better than Dave Littlefield?? Because the system is improved since Littlefield left?? That would be a pretty vague reason for recommending a contract extension.
well, anyway, since it looks like a snarky response, i won't bother
But in general, you are not expected to ignore stuff. Valid criticism is valid. Having read your stuff before, I know you make good arguments, and understand plenty. Hence, I am sure even you know there isnt a ton of validity to comments like this: “So we should expect our #1 pick this season to be in the majors in 2013?? Because if it isn’t Rendon, it’s supposedly someone better.”
But, in general, I think if I had to grade the FO, I would give them a pass, but not by much. I think there’s plenty they do wrong. But anyway, if you want to make meaningless arguments, be my guest.
Depends if a HS or
college guy. If Rendon, Hultzen or Cole, yea they should be up by the end of 2013.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
The same reason that Straus was in Washington the year after he was drafted — some are more advanced than others, you see.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
But we can’t expect Neal’s other high picks to have success after 3 or 4 years in the minors?? At least to the point of being somewhat successful at AAA??
Like who?
Most of Neal’s interesting picks have been HS players that require a lot of development time. Wilson is performing well this year. Who exactly are you referring to.
slick, i just dont get Thunder...
hes one of the smartest guys on here, and he knows that NH has drafted guys in their late teens for the most part. only some of them have even made it up to Altoona thus far.
yet he actually thinks they should be in the majors by now?
the Reds called, they want Mike Leake to start back in doubleA now.
right now
Justin Wilson is exhibit A
Jarek Cunningham is lower down and with plenty of qn marks, but doing quite well.
those are from the oldest draft, and Cunningham missed a bunch of time.
mercer, d'arnaud, grossman, hague, benji gonzalez, ferrell and matt curry
were also drafted in 2008. and yes, matt curry liked the pirates and NH enough to allow us to draft him once again.
And how many of the 2008 class...
do you see in the Pirates top 20 prospects?? Wilson and D’Arnaud. D’Arnaud is near the bottom of the list…and I see a LOT of people here doubting both of them. And Wilson is a college player drafted early who SHOULD be close to the majors.
i m guessing
if a list was made now, Jarek would be on it. The list was relevant in the offseason, not anymore.
A lot depends on what you started with...
If NH takes over the Tampa Bay team with a strong farm system in place, then yea you’re right, he’D better be looking good within 3 years. But NH took over an utter distaster of a farm system; that takes a bit more skill (and luck) to turnaround.
I’m not defending NH, just sayin stay a little patient (and NO, it aint easy !)
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
that and the Natinals really needed to sell some tickets
and by having him face the worst team in baseball? priceless.
The decisions and deals this season look decent except for Overbay
And Alvarez looking bad. Other than that, we’ve gotten what we could reasonably expect. There were also really minor moves like Crotta and the Josh Rodriguez rule 5 pick that didn’t go well, but those were so minor.
So again, now doesn’t look as bad as last season, although the corner IF has been a drag.
by Adam Reynolds on May 16, 2011 4:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Matt Diaz and Scott Olsen do not look good. Either does leaving Adcock off the 40 man whille protecting Wil Ledezma. So what offseason moves are we applauding NH for?
lets see...
hiring Hurdle. keeping Searage on. letting Walbeck go. putting Jones in a platoon with diaz.
not dealing doumit yet. not dealing maholm yet. veras. correia. bringing in Wood.
yes, i said bringing in Wood, because at least half the other teams would do the same thing.
only real negative for me so far: Overbay, because his bat has really slowed down.
Kind of the same way a baseball player gets credit for a home run if he also strikes out in the same game.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
by ryebr3ad on May 16, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
its called admitting a mistake and improving on that said mistake
like dumping bautista for laroche, then laroche for alvarez… NH is doing a job that NONE of us can do, at least none of us successfuly
NH has the hardest GM job in baseball, and you guys think its easier than 1st grade fingerpainting. you talk a big game but in the long run, you gont get to $#@! the prom queen!!!
boom… done…
Ned Colletti and Sandy Alderson disagree.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 16, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Correia looks serviceable, Veras (and the pen in general) has been great…
Oh, and do you have anything positive to say about the team, or are you just going to riddle us with these pearls of wisdom?
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Beimel has been surprisingly decent
And I guess if we’re going to knock him for losing Adcock, you’d have to say that keeping Dan McCutchen around has worked out unexpectedly well.
im withya ryebread
and NH did well last year assembling a bullpen, tabata made it to the show along with alvarez, he got Walker to play 2B while in Indy, he fired Dave Kerwin…
there are plusses to go with the negatives.
but im tired of all the signing bashings on here. enough with the church/crosby/diaz/vazquez nonsense. most of NH’s aquisitions are of the temporary sort.
yes, NH missed on Clement, laroche, moss and milledge. but i blame the player more than the GM. those 4 guys were the few who actually were brought in and given jobs.
and not 1 single one kept that job. so i will give the naysayers this one.
Positive?
Lets see, I’m being negative about an organization who owns the sports record for most consecutive losing seasons and is coming off one of the worst single seasons we’ve seen in the last quarter century.
You’re being positive about that same organization.
Who appears to be more grounded in fact and logic?
What the fuck does this have to do with my complaint? Or is your game to attack the straw man whenever posed with a question?
Thank you Ned Colletti.
You asked me if I had anything positive to say. Give me something to be positive about and I’ll chime in. But I find it hilarious how you want to give me crap for not being positive about the single worst professional franchise in sports history yet you can’t remotely be negative or critical.
Morton/McCutchen/Taillon/Allie/Heredia/Sanchez. Unless you want to cherry-pick the few negatives of those players.
Also, I’ve criticized this team plenty of times in the past. All you’ve done since you’ve been here is made black and white statements (well, only black).
Also, if this is the worst franchise in sports history, I feel bad for the other 20 MLB teams that have less World Series titles than us.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
I like the Morton trade. I’m excited to see him pitch this year.
McCutchen looks like he could be a good player, I like him.
Taillion, Allie and Heredia are nice young prospects and I’m glad they are in the Pirate organizations.
Sanchez was a massive reach at 1.4.
World Series
Bucs have more Series wins in the last 55 years than 75% of all ML teams. There: somethin positive !
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
I'd rather have the 3 rings and 18 losing seasons
then zero rings and a bunch of .500% seasons. But that’s just me
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
Not if you’re under 25 and have never really seen a winning team. Or under 35 and haven’t seen them in the World Series.
Understood
I fail to qualify on both counts !
and I remember Mad Dog well !
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
The Phillies had 31 years of losing sandwiching one winning year where they were a couple games over .500. If only the Pirates had such luck…
Thank you Ned Colletti.
So do you disagree with the process or the execution so far? I don’t think I ever asked.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
For the most part I agree with therebuild process, but hate the execution. Way too many red flags suggesting NH isn’t a qualified GM or that he can properly evaluate MLB talent.
I also agree
I’m not ready to jump ship on the FO yet but they are closing in on beginning the discussion. After the series this weekend its clear that this team is not close to competing to be even .500 and a lot of players traded for in the last 3 years have already washed out.
Quantity received in trades is not nearly as important as quality. And NH went for quantity for a long time.
Thunder actually posts here quite frequently and is rather respected (others may disagree). Rather than make baseless claims as some (not a shot at you, at all) do, he presents facts.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 16, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
"... the single worst professional franchise in sports history ..."
I have the 1918 to 1948 Philadelphia Phillies and the Los Angeles Clippers franchises on line two.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on May 16, 2011 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Detroit Lions,….
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 16, 2011 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Diaz has been worth 0.1 WAR. That’s decent for a bench player. Scott Olsen was injured; who knows what he does if healthy.
Adcock has been worth 0.0 WAR this season. Not exactly a loss there. We have enough replacement level relievers in Triple-A.
by Adam Reynolds on May 16, 2011 5:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
eh
Pitching WAR doesn’t mean that much to me (either it’s FIP straight up or it’s some weird bbRef formula), and if Adcock can be replacement level straight out of A ball, he might be even better next year. (Even Meek better. See what I did there?)
OTOH, protecting McPherson looks pretty good now.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on May 16, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Meek had\s a power arm, Adcock doesn’t. Adcock is Daniel McCutchen II.
by Adam Reynolds on May 16, 2011 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
if the current DCutch is what you're talking about
that’s pretty darn valuable.
by BurgherKing on May 16, 2011 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...
I think his minor league track record was better than Adcock’s too but I’m too lazy to look it up right now. Also, fwiw, I remember hearing that Adcock had seen an uptick in velocity this year and was touching 94 mph. Not sure that means a whole lot but it makes Adcock more interesting.
Doesn't look like it's gonna happen...
I think we lose him. Oh well. Put one in the minus column for NH. Took a gamble and lost.
it could
need the Royals to go on a bit of a winning streak, and have Adcock come in and blow a couple of those games.
by BurgherKing on May 17, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont think so
moore knows the Royals wont be in it for long this season. they can afford to keep adcock for the duration then toss him back into the minors next year
The gamble was entirely unnecessary
Chris Leroux was protected in Adcock’s place. Adcock presently is a much better pitcher and he is younger. Leroux presently is finding little success in Double-A and Triple-A. Its not a fireable offense but its still indicative of an inability to evaluate talent, just like the Bautista trade.
He's done well...
with minor league talkent imo. But yeah seems to have missed it with this one. I don’t think this is a big loss at all but it’s still an unnecessary loss. Leroux is garbage.
But the rule 5
isn’t strictly about talent, it’s also about major league readiness. Sometimes you protect a slightly-less talented AA/AAA player over a slightly-more talented A+ player, trusting that the A+ player wouldn’t be able to skip two levels and perform well enough to stick in the majors for a full year.
Not saying it was the right move – I don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other – but I wouldn’t call it an inability to evaluate talent, just a calculated risk that so far hasn’t panned out.
Diaz was quite good against lefty's coming into the season
a platoon with him and Jones makes all the sense in the world. He couldnt foresee that Diaz would suck this bad. although everything the Pirates touch turns to turds so maybe he should have known.
Everyone sucks right now...
I’m sure Diaz will pick it up. Though I still would have preferred they hung on to Milledge for this role but I’m probably in the minority there.
I'm with you on Milledge
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on May 16, 2011 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
One of NH's moves-to get Akinori Iwamura for a year-
doesn’t look as bad on his part anymore. As I said in a FanShot the other day, Iwamura showed up fat and out of shape in Japan this spring, and was just cut from his team’s top roster.
If I had been in NH’s shoes and the scouts had assured me he looked pretty good with his mobility and “D” after returning from injury late in ’09, I might have made the move as well, not expecting a Japanese player to show up completely unprepared to play.
Rare, thunder, rare.
And Irabu, with his American father’s DNA and his love of guzzling beer, had some trouble staying away from fat toad appearance for a number of years.
Rec'd Slick
but i really wish this hadn’t been frontpaged. It’s like going to BD and seeing Bautista fever!
Has Dejan explained his “.360 OBP” comment?
by Adam Reynolds on May 16, 2011 5:20 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I don't know if I would put Scheppers on that list
Reports were that the guy was throwing in the mid 80’s, while coming off of a serious injury. I have no problem with taking a guy like that and seeing if he’ll take less money, but throwing wads of cash his was in the state he was in would have been completely irresponsible.
Now it appears that move would have turned out well, but I don’t want my GM going around making irresponsible moves left and right, like keeping marginal utility players to see if they turn into Joey Bets, or spending large proportions of the draft budget to see if an injured player can regain his stuff.
Moves like that are okay from time to time, but as a whole, those things won’t work out 90% of the time. I would rather not experience all of those failures than experience the successes that are few and far between. Nobody is going to be perfect, and nail every irresponsible decision, so I would rather rule them out altogether, even if it means missing out on the occasional Scheppers or Bautista. It beats having a roster with Bautista, but also with Jeff Clement and Andy Laroche and Milledge still on the roster, since, by following the same logic, those players would be kept as well.
by thecheeseisblue on May 16, 2011 5:32 PM EDT reply actions
Problem is that the 2nd round 2008 pick was very valuable...
more valuable than the supplemental pick in 2009. 2008 was a deep draft class so picking a guy you weren’t positive you were going to sign was maybe too much of a risk for a team in the Pirates position at the time. The Pirates needed talent and they didn’t get it. I think having that on the list is justifiable and a perfect example of what epoc is talking about. When can defend Huntington’s move here but in the end we didn’t get the talent we should have.
Right, but then you spend the pick on a player who isn’t injured and performing poorly. I don’t think he should have been drafted in the first place, but considering where he was I also wouldn’t consider not signing him to be a miss.
Missing on the pick is a different story, I was talking about specifically not signing Scheppers.
by thecheeseisblue on May 16, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
They were expecting to be able to select Scheppers and sign him for much below slot money…and roll the dice that he wasn’t as injured as everybody said he was.
Turns out that 1) he wouldn’t sign for the pittance the Pirates offered him, and 2) his injury WAS as FUBAR’d as people said it was. They lost on the risk both ways. And compounded it by using the compensatory pick in 2009 for someone with very little track record, and an injury risk as well.
2 cents
The issue here isn’t one of strategy. The strategy that Neal has laid out is excellent and the plan is very sound. The issue is with the people who must execute that plan, especially those doing talent evaluation and development. At this point, I think all but the most die-hard optimists would admit there is cause for concern on that front. Part of Neal’s job is being a strategist. But another part is being a leader, selecting good troops to follow him, giving them the tools to succeed, and, generally, managing them (ha!) to execute that strategy. Ultimately, that’s where he will either succeed or fail.
+1
That said it well. And despite concerns, he inherited a train wreck and at a bare minimum deserves until the end of the season before any soul-searching begins. Meanwhile, today’s game was called this morning and two hours past when the first pitch would have been thrown, I’m still looking at partly sunny skies and my unused tickets. No doubt the game will be rescheduled for a day I’m out of town.
Is the L. Nunez
who is 17-for-17 in saves for the Marlins the Leo Nunez we gave away for eight games of Benito Santiago?
yep
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/nunezle01.shtml
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on May 21, 2011 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
As long as hindsight is 20-20
that was a pretty terrible deal too. Difference, I think, is that most of us thought it was a bad deal a the time … didn’t we?
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- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
- Giancarlo Stanton misses cutoff man, and Logan Morrison is thankful he did (Video)
- Snoop Dogg delivers memorable first pitch at U.S. Cellular Field
