Poll: Should Huntington Be Retained?
by Kosstic518 on May 16, 2011 5:24 PM EDT
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I'm curious after all the fighting today to see what the best Pirate community online believes. Simple question, simple answers, no middle ground. The poll is for 2012 only, if you want to retain him longer vote yes. Feel free to explain you choice if you want but it is not mandatory.
I'm honestly shocked this did not occur earlier.
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This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Can't answer as written
Depends on what happens the rest of the year.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
That's tough to do..
if he pulls off another Dotel like deal that helps out the big club that’s a plus. But If the big club finishes with the worst record again because of poor defense and shit performance out of Overbay, Diaz, Cedeno, Jones and Correia than I think his time may be up.
I wouldn’t base a decision like this just on transactions. People place way, way, way too much emphasis on trades and FA signings in judging GMs.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
All transactions.
Trades, FA signings, draft picks, draft signings, international signings, minor league promotions, waiver claims, the way he shifts the outfield, etc.. Literally everything he touches, consider that in your decision.
If not I can understand how hard it is to vote on a topic anonymously on an internet blog, no problem.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
i believe NH should be here forever.
i havent been a fan of the pirates for as long as most of you, and his hiring and also FC’s has brought a brighter future to the Burgh.
for anyone who doesnt see this, ive had Lasik eye surgery. i see everything.
what arguments? did i miss something? i wasnt going near that Bautista thread if thats where this all went down
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
You missed out on a party.
If everyone was in the same room there would have undoubtedly been a fist fight.
Thank
God. I don’t even start to read those type of threads anymore. It’s idle speculation. I’d much rather read useful news about the Pirates rather than opinions. My two cents.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on May 16, 2011 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with angus
NH has put something in place that was a long time coming, obviously the results were not going to show in years one or two. year three was pretty rough to watch, but it appears year 4 is going smoothly (except for the Brewers again).
We’ve all heard it takes a solid 7yrs to turn things as bad as ours around, I’m on board with at least giving him 5 of those 7 years. If improvement is made this year and next and the minor league system continues to develop, then give the man years 6 and 7 to see this thing through.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
I voted to fire him
But only on the assumption that FC is retained. This FO is pointed in the right direction, I just think someone else (with a similar philosophy) might be more effective at the helm. It’s not that I don’t like NH, I just would have liked to have seen more. The trades I don’t really factor at all. I am mostly disappointed in the lack of development in the farm system as a whole. There is just too little impact talent, especially on the hitting side. Perhaps it would be best to judge at the end of this season, but at this moment, I think there’s probably someone better out there.
If FC would be let go as well, though, I would just as soon stand pat. To much of a chance Nutting would hire Ned Colletti or his ilk.
It's a good day to be a Pirate
What makes you think there’s too much of a chance Nutting will hire someone bad? The current front office is the only front office he’s hired, so it’s not like there’s precedent.
by thecheeseisblue on May 16, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
No real reason
Just a bad feeling.
I feel like he might be inclined to say, “Well, that didn’t work, let’s go the other direction.”
It's a good day to be a Pirate
Similar situation PSU is facing every year with JoePa. A lot of people want to push him out because they think that anything can be an improvement. Not necessarily the case. There are more people in these types of jobs that would mess it up royally than there are people who could do a better job.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 16, 2011 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't even get me started on Penn State football.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Something tells me we’re on opposite ends of the spectrum
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 16, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I appreciate everything Joe has done for the school, but its time.
He’s lost completely control of the kids. While I was there I had a number of friends on the team and had been around a number of other players. The literally do whatever they want and have no respect for him or the school because of the generational gap.
They also recruit terribly for having the second most football net income of any school and more alumni than any school in the nation.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on May 16, 2011 11:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Does anyone really "have control of the kids" these days?
Other than the service academies and maybe BYU?
Thats a fair point
But I would counter with if you are going to have a bunch of gangsters at least have gangsters that win and are productive in the NFL instead of underachieving ones. Some of the worst behaving players I have met are second and third teamers which literally makes no sense to me.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Hand over my ears...
and I’m yelling “Lalalalalalalalal!” I don’t want to hear any of this. This is blasphemy to me. Say it aint so Joe!
If I told you some stories about players I saw first hand
You might throw up.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on May 17, 2011 10:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Heh, please don't.
It probably is time for him to move on though if he really has lost of control of the team to that defree. Where the heall are all of the asst coaches?
The problem is Larry Johnson Sr. has recruited most of the bad kids.
So they are in on it as well.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on May 17, 2011 11:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Just because Joe is replaced doesn’t mean the next guy is going to come in and suddenly recruit upstanding men that are going to win NCs. And that’s all I’m going to say, this is a Pirates blog, not Black Shoe Diaries (which I recommend).
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 17, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say judging any GM on his draft picks after 3 years is very poor reasoning but maybe that’s just me. Come back in 3 more and we’ll see.
Probably true
There’s no way to deny that the minor league system has been vastly improved over what it was, but that’s not really saying that much. I can’t deny that there is at least a little bit of knee-jerk reaction to a 6 game losing streak that affected my judgment. If Cutch, Tabata, and Alvarez were all hitting, I might not might not be as nervous.
However, taking a snapshot of the team and minor leagues at this particular moment, I just don’t have a lot of confidence that things are going to get better anytime soon. In 2009, I thought we’d be watching playoff baseball in 2012 or 2013. Now, that seems like pipe dreams; 2015 or 2016 seems much more reasonable. That’s a long time, and I don’t think it needs to take that long.
It's a good day to be a Pirate
I don't think Huntington has earned three more years at this point...
If anything I’d throw him another year and revisit the issue next season. We are still in a situation where he hasn’t picked up one position player at the major league level that has done any good. It’s still very early and both Diaz and Overbay have time to turn things around, which is why I’d wait til the end of the year to evaluate him, but his track record has been spotty at best and shitty if you flat out just want to call a spade a spade.
IMO,
extending him one year only puts more pressure on him as a “lame-duck” to make mistakes in the plan by trying to “win now.”
If you’re going to extend him, make it 2 or 3 years. You can always fire him before the contract’s up. Happens alla time.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on May 17, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
That's still up to Coonelly...
to make sure Huntington sticks to the plan. I don’t think FC would be fooled by a Matt Morris type of move.
No, but...
a couple more minor types of those things would be bad…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on May 17, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It is a concern
but he is a lame duck this year and so far we haven’t seen any of that line of thinking from him.
I was speaking more...
free agent acquisition and trades for major league ready players. There are a couple of winners like Hanrahan and McDonald but there are far more losers, even the players were signed to role players: Crosby, Vasquez, Gomez, Rivas, Church, Aki, Laroche, Milledge, Clement, Moss, Eveland, etc. Verdict is still out on Overbay, Diaz and Correia though KC is looking good for the money right now.
i haveta mention that at least we dont go pull an Orioles by going after costlier players
and have them fail miserably… Lee- nothing really left. Hardy- always hurt and not a good hitter. Reynolds- nuff said.
i know Overbay makes $5MM, but it still cheaper than guys like Pena. I cant blame guys like Lyle or Matt Diaz when our young core players are not playing up to their capabilities.
by white angus on May 17, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Why not blame them?
They said Overbay was supposed to be a leader in the clubhouse, not the leader in errors by a 1B man.
Overbay’s production was pretty predictable coming in, an aging .242 in a hitters park. What’s been terrible is his glove.
Huntington does have the correct plan in rebuilding the team but his execution has been pretty dismal.
Do you give him another year? Do you give stark another year? If the minor leaguers continue underperforming for most part, how can you?
by jackiegleason on May 17, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
id argue the minors has been great this year. not in the win-loss column but player development and individual accomplishments have been good to this point. Marte, Sanchez, Taillon, Cunningham, Holt, Curry. Owens hasnt been so great at AAA but its still early.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
Agree, I think Kyle Stark is for the most part decent. Most of the interesting prospects were injured last year and might just be slow out of the gate, it’s not Stark.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 17, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Curry is quite old for a ball, hopefully AA soon
not sure what he has left to prove playing against younger kids.
I felt the same way with Sanchez though. I wouldn’t say he’s had an encouraging year in my opinion, his error totals and SB% are startling but a .280’s avg is OK, not a ton of power though.
Never heard of Cunningham prior to this year but he has hit for power.
by jackiegleason on May 17, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah Curry needs to be moved up, i think everyone agrees on this. As for Sanchez, he said his SB% is down bcuz they arent having the pitchers really hold runners on or something like that, there was a post about it. 280avg is good, and he was never expected to have a ton of power, moderate 10-15HRs i believe
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
and he’s still drawing a lot of walks which is very encouraging. Doumit’s bat with Snyder’s plate discipline and D I would not complain.
Curry really isnt that old.
below is a link to the average ages for each level of ball. granted, this link is 4 years old, but i believe still holds true.
curry is playing with guys around his age, some guys older, and some guys younger.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5765
It may be average...
but most prospects his age don’t stay there long. College players that make that league most likely aren’t making your team’s top 30. If he hadn’t spent 4 years in college I’d agree with you. That extra year does make a difference in terms of development. He has no business being in low A right now.
that may be true, but its out of his hands
Curry is proving that he belongs in a higher league, he cant move up a rung himself.
most people say he SHOULD be dominating his league just because of age. im sayin, nuh uhhhhh. old guys can stink in A ball too.
I believe and this is without looking it up, that Curry only spent 3 years in college. turned 22 last year while with the team or what-have-you (not sure when his bday is exactly)
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
Curry spent 4 seasons in college, and was drafted twice by the pirates
went to Howard Univ then TCU
by white angus on May 17, 2011 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Pena is starting to turn it around
and if there was ever a year when you didnt need to find the cheaper guys, it was this one. Our payroll is low enough that it can afford the cost of Pena over Overbay.
Hardy: I really wish we had gotten him. Of the offseason SS available, he’s the only one I really wanted (as I’ve said before).
I cant blame guys like Lyle or Matt Diaz when our young core players are not playing up to their capabilities.
Perhaps. But especially when things are not going well, sparks from veterans can be good, both in terms of pulling out a game that you shouldnt have won coz u didnt play well, as well as for morale.
you can probably still get Hardy
he will be a free agent next year. maybe NH can make a trade to the O’s or just wait until next year
Unless Cedeno has turned the corner!
by Joey Mooney on May 17, 2011 1:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Since there's no middle ground,
you get a yes from me.
Thank you
I’m looking for people to make the tough decision, since you know how hard it is to make a tough decision in a poll on an internet blog anonymously.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on May 16, 2011 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kosstic
What happened between you and DK that resulted in all the hate?
Every time I see any reference to an article of his that has even the smallest opinion...
…he is writing something that puts the front office in the worst possible light regardless of the situation. I’d rather not see the best hope the Pirates have had to be competitive in two decades get run out of town by a band of yinz demanding change for the sake of change, led by a man who knows nothing about how to run a baseball team.
He also doesn’t believe that sabrmetrics are useful, which to me is a tell tale sign of low intellect.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
+1
He’s been exposed. Should have stuck to simply covering the team and not offering opinions. He makes himself sound stupid, especially in his evaluation of players.
Jason Bay, Superstar
by CabreraKilledMyChildhood on May 17, 2011 1:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Keep him.
All things considered, 4 years isn’t enough time to judge him. It could be long enough for him to have totally tanked (same ML records with way less talent in the minors) or totally succeeded (Andy LaRoche turned into Ryan Zimmerman) but not long enough given the situation he’s in.
Neal has taken us a very long way towards our goal. I say let’s let him see it through. Give him another 1-2 years to see what he can get for Maholm, Doumit, Hanrahan/Meek/Resop/Veras, etc. See if he can get any of the group of Lincoln/Wilson/Locke/Morris/Owens to be successful major leaguers. There have been a lot of ups and downs but there’s no conclusive reason to get rid of him, so let’s let it play out.
The Pirates have had 18 straight losing seasons.
In that time, there is at least one small market team that is on their THIRD successful rebuild in that time. The 3rd rebuild started around the time we signed our GM.
In 1991, this team lost 105 games…in 92-93 they went 76-86 both seasons. By 1995, they won 100 games. They were successful through 2001.
In 2002, they lost 88 games, followed by 94 the next season. They won 93 games in 2005 and 96 in 2007.
In 2009, they lost 97 games, followed by 93 last year. This year…they currently have the best record in the majors at 25-13.
If the Cleveland Indians can do it 3 times…including once since this FO was hired…why can’t the Pirates.
Bigger hole left by DL...
that can’t really be over stated. That’s what makes evaluating Huntington so difficult. I have to say that I am completely on the fence right now. We’ll see what happens this year in the majors, the draft, inetrnationally and in the minors than lets revisit the topic in October.
In October...
the decision will have already been made. Huntington will have either been fired or extended by the time the season ends.
He'll be fired in October
But we won’t find out about it until next July.
Dejan will be steamed. Those are my predictions.
Smizik will be steamed, FTFY
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 17, 2011 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Well I think by the end of the season...
we’ll have a better idea. That’s what I meant. As I said above, I don’t think I would go out and give him a three year extension at this point. I might be attempted to extend him one year but that would be about it if you put a gun to my head right now.
They may have already extended him for the year, we just haven’t been told about it.
There, I saved others from the trouble.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 17, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
plus i believe the Indians got better players in return for trading their star players
including masterson, laporta and knapp. some havent made their stamp yet, but they got a pretty good return on the deal.
this is my opinion: the Indians traded Sabathia, Lee and Martinez. We traded Bay, McLouth,
Nady, Wilson, Sanchez and Gorzo. Their 3 trumps our 6.
by white angus on May 17, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
this is my opinion: the Indians traded Sabathia, Lee and Martinez. We traded Bay, McLouth, Nady, Wilson, Sanchez and Gorzo. Their 3 trumps our 6.
I would rather have their three “stars” than our six. As such, it really shouldn’t be surprising that they got a better return when trading them. They were significantly better players.
Honestly, I might take Sabathia by himself over all six of our guys.
that was kind of my point
everyone expects us to get stellar talent in return for our “stars”, when truth be told our “stars” were only stars on OUR team.
Look what the Indians recieved for Bartolo Colon. Say what you will about his fat butt now, but he was better than anyone we had on our roster.
Absolutely not.
I have no problem when he came in here and getting rid of players to build for the future. It was nice to finally have a guy with a plan and I was all for it. However, the majority of his trades have been dismal. He has failed on a consistent basis to bring in solid talent. The minor league system still is in the middle of the pack according to a majority of baseball publications. His FA signings have been poor though the Pirates were never going to major players in that area. A guy in his fourth year should at least have a reasonable foundation already set in place at the major league level. Four position players and a couple of pitchers players just aren’t enough of a core this far into his tenure.
If this guy gets canned tomorrow does anyone think he will be in line to get another GM job?
Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.
by Black&GoldTrain on May 17, 2011 3:47 AM EDT reply actions
Keep him
I am concerned about the lack of aggressiveness and the uninspiring record of major league talent acquisition. I think that the recent post pointing out that the question should not be whether a trade was defensible versus whether it was good was a more eloquent way of saying something some of us having being trying to say for some time. I would overhaul the pro player scouting staff.
All of that said, the plan is largely solid and given the particulars of this market with this team, it remains critical to continue to build the minor league system. Huntington clearly understands that and has stuck to guns much moreso than his predecesors.
I think you extend him for two more years and overhaul the pro scouting staff. You then need to start making more impactful moves than Diaz and Overbay.
Good day.
i know we expect more from Overybay with the bat but I think the main cuase for bringing him in was price/defense. when you have an INF of Alvarez, Cedeno, Walker you need someone with a good glove at 1B. For his price tag and for how he normally swings the bat along with solid D, I liked the Overbay signing….it just hasnt worked out, in theory, good move IMO
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
i agree
and for the record, cedeno hasnt committed an error in nearly a month
by white angus on May 17, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
yup i everything everyone is down on overbay bcuz of his bat, granted he should be hitting better but he wasnt brought here for his bat, thats just my thought on his signing so i cant complain about overbay
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
er
Overbay wasnt brought in because his bat would be outstanding. He was brought in because his bat would be average-ish and his fielding outstanding. Nothing else he might do well excuse a 650 OPS.
yes, Overbay's bat is a disappointment. it looks slower than ever.
other than Berkman, the rest of the 1Bmen available last year havent done much of anything.
at least Overbay didnt try to throw a guy out threw his legs. (sarcasm)
Uncle Nate
My sentiments exactly
Lino Donoso
I have to wait until the season is over!
NH signing of free agents and a so- so record on trades should be questioned. The results of his plan of building through the draft will take at least two more years to grade. My biggest disappointment is not signing the elite Latin American players (excluding Heredia). I think at this point he should get extended two years, to see if his draft choices pan out. The key for me on giving him this extension is TY draft, international signings, and his trades at the deadline. Also, I would like him to re- evaluate his pro and LA scouting staffs.
by Krid on May 17, 2011 10:44 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Question for all:
How many years did DL get as GM? Now compare how many years DL got along with his trades/success/signings and then ask yourself, should NH get the same amount of time as DL got? I would say absolutely, comparing him to his predecessor he deserves at least 1-2 more years
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
Excellent point
I never thought of that.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on May 17, 2011 11:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Using one of the worst GM's...
in the history of baseball is not a good benchmark to use though. That shouldn’t be your criteria for success, be better than the worst.
has NH been an improvement over what we had before thats the current benchmark, has he made strides to improve this team compared to DL? thats what im saying here
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
I agree with you..
he is much better than DL. But I’m not sure that he’s been good enough to keep around.
heh also my point. You say DL was the worst, yet he was GM for 6yrs? 01-07? i believe im correct there?
how is it that the worst GM got 6 yrs and a much improved GM cant even get 5?
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
no
i m saying DL was a mistake, that cannot be used as a benchmark for anything. You should therefore consider whether to keep NH or not, based on what a major league average GM can do (or perhaps, ML bottom 5%). In either case, this: “how is it that the worst GM got 6 yrs and a much improved GM cant even get 5?” is not a useful argument.
both have held/hold the exact same position in the exact same franchise. how can i not compare the two. both are required to do the same job under the same circumstances. i think its an argument i can use.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
suit yourself
it doesn’t hold any water with me. As far as I’m concerned, DL was a gigantic mistake. As epoc’s post outlined very nicely yesterday, being better than DL is something everybody should be, and I don’t doubt NH is. But his performance needs to compared to that of his peers.
ok which one of his peers were left a sad story of a franchise when they took over. lets find that comparison first and go from there eh.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
yep
sounds like a start. ALternately, you could compare GMs who traded similar players, and see how their returns ended up. Or GMs who drafted in similar positions and whether they did better or not.
i think weve been through all of NHs trades and drafts 10x over the past year or two. IMO he lost on the Bay, Sanchez, and Gorzo deals. Has won or pushed on all the other deals.
His drafts to date have produced a potential allstar 3b (not looking good now though), a legit C, and pitchers in low A. Not much we can really compare at this point in terms of sucess from the draft….
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
i m not suggesting we restart the transaction history
just pointing out that there are better ways to evaluate him than DL comparisons.
I don't know that he should get a ton of credit for the draft yet.
Sanchez is far from a legit C. He isn’t exactly tearing up AA. He could still very well be nothing but a reserve catcher with a poor bat. And yeah he signed a bunch of overslot guys but only Dodson and Cain have shown any real signs of life (and they are doing ok). Again, no one is dominating except Taillon (which is expected). Now all of this may very well be the Stark development plan (only throwing fastballs) but like I said, still too early too give him credit. Another case of good strategy but unsure of execution.
+1 for BK that is
what happened with DL should have no bearing on NH.
If a mistake was made prior, you dont base another decision on that first mistake
by jackiegleason on May 17, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Correct. you can’t tell me that DL is the standard we are trying to out do.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
right . . .
but consider it this way: DL had 6 years in which he essentially destroyed every asset we had. Shouldn’t we assume it would take even the best GM at least that long to undo the damage?
WAGM?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on May 17, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Because McClatchy was a douchebag...
And two wrongs don’t make a right. And those who ignore our history will be doomed to repeat it. And so on, and so on, and scooby dooby dooby…
The past GM DL
Did he not draft Duke, Maholm, Walker, Cutch, Doumit, and trade for Bay?
I admit I’m not real versed on his moves but the big league club was more competitive and he did draft some guys that atleast had a couple decent years. I know the farm was poor as he left but there was Walker,Cutch sitting down there.
I know he was poor but am not sure what makes NH look head and shoulders better?
He has the correct idea but he certainly hasn’t judged talent well at all.
There is alot of hopes pinned on the Morris,Owens,Loche’s,D’nard along with the Gorky’s and so on but there performances this year are pretty frightening in my opinion when they are to be main clogs here soon.
I know he was poor but am not sure what makes NH look head and shoulders better?
The fact that the farm is no longer poor. The fact that you can look down, and see where you might actually get contributors at most positions from. It’s still to be seen whether the moves can actually improve the ML team, but the fact that the ML team is no worse and the farm has help available is significant.
I guess with Tallion
I’m not sure the is a cutch like player there.
It seems alot of question marks.
Thanks for the reply as I really dont know the whole DL story, just from an outsiders view, there seems a slighter difference than advertised I guess.
by jackiegleason on May 17, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
sure
I’d put Taillon and Heredia as phenom prospects that could be on the level of Cutch.
Aside from that DL got Maholm and Duke, who were OK, and that’s that. If you look at the guys who made the majors, you’ll see the disaster that is DL’s drafting.
OTOH, now we have guys like Sanchez, Morris, Owens, Locke, Wilson, D’Arnaud – who I’d bet will contribute at league average in the bigs for a few years in some role. There’s McPherson, Pribanic, Hague, Mercer, Farrell, who are at AA or above, and look like they have a shot. There’s Jarek Cunningham absolutely killing the ball, and Matt Curry. Gift Ngoepe, Irwin, Baker, ZVR, Cain, Grossman, Stevenson, Pounders, Black all have a chance to put themselves in position to be considered. I’d bet that’s more than there has been in the past decade. And when you have a lot of guys who could become something, hopefully, some of them make that switch that takes you from league average to star level. And I’m sure I’ve forgotten a bunch of names.
and Duke was just as much a surprise as Owens has been
20th round picks usually dont become a team’s top prospect. Duke surprised everyone
that's true
so maybe Owens breakout is in fact in line with the thought that some guys will occasionally just figure it out. Anyway, with more real prospects with a real shot, I m hoping we’ll see a few more break out now than before.
yes lets name draft picks from 1999-2005. its now what 2011. so at most thats 6 yrs of time to see drafted guys come through and contribute. Now you fire NH and in 2-3 yrs his draftees start making an impact are you going to come back on here and say well maybe after all NH wasnt so bad????
the big league club was not competitive under DL. they never finished better than 4th in the divison!!!! Walker was sitting down there as a C/3B. Ill give him McCutchen but even a dog finds a bone sometimes right? Doumit was a 2nd round pick i believe, other than that the rest you name are 1st round selections. Name someone that DL selected in the later rounds to have potential, better yet name a Latin American signing DL has made that could have a significant impact…..
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
That why I asked
Owens I believe was a late round but I dont know the track record.
I agree the mlb team wasn’t competitive but they looked like the yanks compared to the past couple MLB teams NH put together.
I am not saying NH isn’t better, just trying to see the comparison and if he is head and shoulders better.
by jackiegleason on May 17, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Owens is correct, i do believe he was a DL pick.
Other than Owens i honestly cannot name one interesting late round pick DL made. Granted NH late round picks are fresher in my head but still, I cant think of one DL. And NO Latin American prospects.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
DL made a number of astute later picks like Owens, Presley and Crotta.
No wonder he is such a highly-prized scout for the Cubs these days.
yeah
but i m not sure how much credit i’d give DL for Owens. His breakout could have a lot to do with the new system.
you may be right
they helped Morris, looks to be helping Alderson too. mcpherson was a DL pick i believe, and hes doing awesome.
Yep, ’07 draft
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 18, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I think this is correct as well...
And you could probably add Jared Hughes to that list too; maybe Welker. And let’s not forget about Lincoln.
I dont think any hope is pinned on Gorkys or D’arnaud. Hopes are on Owens, Locke, Morris, Marte, Sanchez, Taillon, Allie, Heredia, Rojas Jr, Holt, Cunningham, etc
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
Tallion, Allie and Heredia for sure
I wish they allowed Allie to start off with Tallion at WV though.
Some of the guys starting there are getting killed, I guess they felt Allie was quite a bit farther behind than his HS numbers suggested
by jackiegleason on May 17, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Allie...
we knew he was raw. It is a bit disappointing that he is more raw than we thought. He also sounds like he’s kind of stubborn. Let’s hope he is not fighting instruction.
well
the guy i wanted is out with a broken something (Brett Eibner), so I dont have much to say. But I don’t think Allie’s not being in WV yet changes any part of my expectations from him. For all you know, maybe they’re trying him out as a hitter!
Eibner would have been cool...
he’s a good ball player though I’m not disappointed with Allie. I liked the pick. He’s just going to require more patience than I thought. I guess those early reports of him starting the year with Taillon in WV got me overly optimisitic.
I don't think anyone should change their opinions about Allie
if you liked him during the draft, it should be the same now. ZVR was more polished than Allie and look where that’s getting him. pro-ball is hard. I dont doubt that Allie may have been able to hold his own in WV, esp if he has some semblance of command. But it may be best for his long term development to make sure he actually has command and isnt getting by on an overpowering FB.
I didnt like Allie as much as others here, but I like him just as much as I did when he was drafted.
Actually
ZVR is really the only guy who’s struggling. Taillon, Cain and Dodson have all been good and even Cumpton has turned in three solid starts in a row. You also have Pounders and Fuesser pitching well in relief, they deserve to get innings, too. Overall, there’s not a lot of room at WV unless they decide to bump ZVR down to State College or something.
ZVR and Crumpton are the two that stood out
Maybe he is getting going though as I hadn’t followed his last 3
by jackiegleason on May 17, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Stevenson hasn't done so well either...
Cain and Dodson have been good but I was hoping for more, long season though. Pounders needs more innings as you pointed out, probably Fuesser too. Brooks was a second round pick and has been real strong in his limited appearances. Crumpton in Waldron should be in Bradenton if they are real prospects.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on May 18, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
it's Cumpton
Cumpton started off real bad, and was mentioned by Stark (IIRC) as being someone they’d like to move up quickly. If he can maintain his current rates (last 4 appearances) for another month or more, I think he’ll be in Bradenton in July.
DL made a few good trades
but overall was terrible. Giles for Perez + Bay worked out. Freddy Sanchez + Mike Gonzalez for Suppan. Todd Ritchie for Fogg, Kip Wells and Sean Lowe. I think he traded for Damaso Marte. An avg. reliever (I think it was Scott Sauerbeck) for Jack Wilson but that might have been the previous GM.
But then you also have things like Chris Young for a soon to be cut Matt Herges. Leo Nunez for Benito Santiago and so on.
Freddy Sanchez + Mike Gonzalez for Suppan
Worth remembering: Gonzo was our property to begin with. DL sent him to Boston in a trade for Brandon Lyon, and the only reason we were able to get him back (or get Freddy at all) is that Lyon showed up with an injured arm and the deal had to be modified a week later.
Is that a success? Maybe, in the same way that dropping a gun, putting a round through your own leg, and accidentally shooting a hostile ninja sneaking up behind you is a success.
Heh,
Even DL’s best trades came about by accident. We can’t forget that he actually wanted Nady over Bay but settled for Bay when San Diego wouldn’t cave.
The past GM DL Did he not draft Duke, Maholm, Walker, Cutch, Doumit, and trade for Bay?
No, he did not. Duke was taken in the 2001 draft, which as everyone knows happens in June, and Littlefield wasn’t hired until July 13 of that year.
It’s also worth remembering that DL only traded for Bay after he was unable to convince the Padres to include Sean Burroughs or Xavier Nady instead.
Recently, Marty Brennenman said that the Bucs don't have good baseball people..
This was not the first time I heard or read this.. You wonder how A broadcaster could make such a statement! Did it come from other GM’s, scouting directors, or other FO staffers. There has to be changes made…. Not based off of talk or heresay, but results! If FC fires NH he will have to let the new GM bring his own people in and clean house….
by Krid on May 17, 2011 1:22 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
worst idea ever. you clean house all the way down you can really screw some things up. stability is key when your rebuilding
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
Meant to say that new GM may want to bring his own people in, and want to clean house.
by Krid on May 17, 2011 6:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
still dont like the idea, you get minor league players and every so many years their approach/mechanics get tinkered with. you want them to find what works and move on with it.
not sure if you mean scouting staff/coaching staff/not player development but i like what Stark and crew are doing as of now
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
well Marty is also a douche bag
that said there was no hope for the org. Then we proceeded to take 3 of 4 from the reds
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." Wes Westrum
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on May 17, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I voted no
I think people are only answering yes because Neal’s predecessor was a complete disaster. Neal has been OK at evaluating amateur talent, horrible at evaluating Major League reclamation projects.
heh you cant even rate him on evaluating amateur talent. He has had one drafted player reach the majors. the rest of his “top picks” are still at AA or lower most of which are doing fairly well. Id rate him as Incomplete or at lease above avg in terms of amateur evaluation.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
Very interesting results.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
77% Keep him.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
That what this topic is about.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Fire Huntington and Kovacevic
and hire Kosstic518 for both jobs.
If the standard is Dave Littlefield, then yes, retain him. If the standard is a league average GM or a slightly above average GM with more experience, etc (is there such thing as a replacement level GM?), then I’m not sure although I’d probably lean yes.
Quick, someone design a metric to determine NH’s GMWAR
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 18, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
You just gave me an idea to kill the last hour of work, and probably a couple tomorrow. Thanks!
by Wizard of Woz on May 18, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
No
I’d have to cast a vote for no.
Too many trades that did not land in our favor, and the minors don’t seem to be as talented as I thought it would be by now.
Sorry.
"... the minors don’t seem to be as talented as I thought it would be by now. Sorry."
How much improvement – realistically – did you you expect in 3 years? What would be an acceptable level to you?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on May 18, 2011 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually we’re just a few months from it being the fourth year anniversary of Huntington’s arrival as GM.
Realistically, I think that’s quite a bit of time.
Many GM’s don’t get even that much time.
It’s a cruel sports world these days.
As for an acceptable level in the minors, I just don’t see anything down there in the way of middle IF, power hitting potential and starting pitching (yes, I know way down in Class A).
Am I a major hater of Huntington?
No
Do I think the Pirates can do alot better?
Yes
Do I think the Pirates will keep him?
I think it’s 50-50 right now.
Actually we’re just a few months from it being the fourth year anniversary of Huntington’s arrival as GM.
And he’s had three drafts.
Realistically, I think that’s quite a bit of time. Many GM’s don’t get even that much time.Examples?
.
As for an acceptable level in the minors, I just don’t see anything down there in the way of middle IF, power hitting potential and starting pitching (yes, I know way down in Class A).That’s where they start… You may well be right about MIF and “power” hitting.
.
Am I a major hater of Huntington?Nor am I – or anyone else, as far as I can tell – saying you are.
No
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on May 18, 2011 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's go to the stats
Realistically, I think (four years is) quite a bit of time. Many GM’s don’t get even that much time.
Of current GMs, 11 have had their jobs less than four years, 3 others about four years, and 15 more than four years. Average tenure is about 6 years and median is 4.5. So NH has been in the job slightly less time than average.
But to see “how much time GMs get”, you have to look beyond current GMs. Best data would probably be to look at GM tenures since the beginning of the Free Agency era, but I didn’t feel like digging that much; instead, I looked at the tenures of the previous GM of all 30 MLB teams (excluding explicit “interim GMs”. 21 out of thirty got more than four years; two got exactly four years, and 7 out of 30 got less than four years.
I would probably characterize 7 of 30 as “some”, not “many”.
(Average tenure was about seven years, by the way, and median tenure was 6.)
Those are interesting stats that you present.
I would wonder what the average tenure would be for the amount of losses Huntington has accumulated in four years (has to be pushing 350).
A GM is given more leeway than a manager but there comes a time (and four years has got to qualify) when he needs to start gathering some W’s on the board.
His main trades are well in place, off-season acquisitions easily analyzed and overall state of the minors is pretty clear (though opinions vary).
I think he needs to achieve more games similar to the past few nights, and alot less of the past ten days.
There comes a time in any business where one has to start showing some real improvement. So far, I can’t seriously say I see that on any level of consistency.
The team has played better this year
I give credit to a new approach w/ Hurdle and Savage. To that extent, Neil gets some credit for hiring them.
That said, his personal moves are just plain bad. He exposes Adcock, who had very good numbers last year and had a production curve in the RIGHT direction and keeps a bum like Leroux, also the infamous lefty who was dropped 2 less than 2 weeks later Ledezma, these continue types of moves has me believing he has no idea what he’s doing when it comes to judging talent.
The big guy who throws hard and gets nobody out is a better and more valuable player than a guy who ONLY throws 91-92 and does get people out. That philosophy is suspect at best in my opinion.
I guess take the good and the bad but I dont see this team ever getting over that HUMP with his talent evaluations.
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