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2011 MLB Draft: Trevor Bauer Shows Why Pirates Shouldn't Draft A Pitcher

I've mentioned this in a couple places today, but it's worth mentioning here as well. John Sickels has a list of the top 100 draft prospects. No. 1 in Anthony Rendon. No. 2 is UCLA pitcher Trevor Bauer, who has been climbing draft boards recently. He's certainly a good prospect, but I think the fact that it's no longer certain whether Gerrit Cole is a better prospect than he is makes it all the more clear that if the Pirates can get any kind of assurance that Anthony Rendon's shoulder won't be a lasting problem, they should steer clear of pitchers altogether. 

Here's what I wrote about Bauer today at SB Nation Pittsburgh (and by the way, I've been writing about the draft about once a day for almost a month over there):

But if I'm the Pirates, I would just chuck the whole results (Bauer) versus aesthetics (Cole) debate and avoid them both. Sure, either of them could become a big star and make you look silly. But pitchers selected in the early first round have a very poor track record, historically ... What you think about [Bauer's] prospect status is a litmus test about how you feel about various hot-button issues for pitching prospects – size (Bauer is relatively small), college stats as a way of evaluating draft prospects (Bauer’s are great this year, much better than fellow highly-touted Bruin Gerrit Cole), workloads (Bauer’s is ridiculous), and delivery (Bauer’s is unconventional).

Bauer has been compared to Tim Lincecum a lot, which is a flattering way of saying that he has posted great results with a high-effort delivery. Also, Bauer has an an insane college workload.

Bauer is a very bright and unusual person who's known for some very creative workout habits, which might reduce his injury risk somewhat. And he's posted brilliant numbers so far this year. If the Pirates had, say, the No. 8 pick in the draft and they picked Bauer, I'd be ecstatic, and I'd root hard for him. But with the No. 1 overall pick, you want more certainty than he can offer.

Now, there's no indication that the Pirates have any interest in taking Bauer with the No. 1 overall pick. But my point is this: if Trevor Bauer even might be the top overall pitcher in this draft - if Gerrit Cole isn't clearly a better prospect than a somewhat undersized righty who pitches in the low 90s, has a high-effort delivery and routinely throws 125 or more pitches a game - then the Pirates just shouldn't pick a pitcher. (And by the way, UCLA hasn't exactly been careful about Cole's workload, either.) Pitchers are extremely risky to begin with, and now the guy everyone's talking about has so many obvious risk factors that the team that drafts him is likely to shut him down for the year as soon as he signs. Maybe he really will become the next Lincecum. I hope he does. But if he's the top pitching prospect in the draft, then I'm pretty sure I don't want any of the others at No. 1 overall.

Maybe Rendon's shoulder is about sink into his chest cavity and settle somewhere near his spleen, in which case the Pirates have to consider taking a pitcher, or Bubba Starling, or something. But if not, there seems to be a very clear choice here.

UPDATE: Bauer on his delivery:

"I, personally, think he has the best mechanics in the big leagues, the most efficient," Bauer said. "There are a lot of guys out there who have really good mechanics. Cliff Lee is one of them. I think the more you torque and use your body, the less stress you put on your arm. I actually think that is preferable to the guys who use mostly arm."

Bauer knows about this stuff a lot better than I do, but I suspect there are a lot of people who wouldn't agree with this. In either case, I'm not a scout, so if you want to mentally remove the references to Bauer's high-effort delivery in the paragraphs above and focus merely on his workload, that's fine with me. The workload alone still presents a very substantial risk.

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Couldn't agree more

I’d rather take Starling if Rendon is seriously hurt as against any of the pitchers. None of them make me feel good.

"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."

by RichieHebner on Jun 2, 2011 12:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Starling?

24 at bats this season. he’s a bigger gamble that Tate was last year,

by jackiegleason on Jun 2, 2011 6:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

Starling is a huge gamble, very raw.

by maguro on Jun 2, 2011 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rather

have Bundy, after Rendon of course.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jun 2, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

It depeds on...

what you mean by high effort. If by high effort, you mean there are a lot of moving parts and it takes a lot of effort because of how much he actually moves his body, then yes, Bauer has a high effort delivery. But if you mean that his delivery is causing a lot of stress on his pitching arm, I would have to strongly disagree. I am willing to go as far as saying he will never have an arm injury that is related to his delivery. His delivery actually reduces stress on his arm because of the amount of moving parts. Bauer is easily the best pitcher in the draft an I see him as having the best career of any pitcher in the draft. I hope he stays healthy, but if he doesn’t, it won’t be an arm injury that is related to his delivery.

It doesn’t really matter much anyway because I highly doubt Neal takes a college pitcher. It would make no sense based on his draft history. I believe he takes Rendon. My second choice would be Starling, because I can actually see the Josh Hamiilton comps being made(crazy huh?) with my third choice being Lindor, because he will stick at SS and his bat is pretty special itself. Bauer is 4th imo. I would completely stay away from Hultzen and Bundy. Cole is on the fence, but I really am worried about his command. He leaves the ball too high in the zone way too often to be an ace. He is more of an Aj Burnett than an “ace”.

ETHAN MARTIN!!!!

by joegonzo on Jun 2, 2011 12:26 AM EDT reply actions  

So you think the amount of torque he gets would actually prevent arm injuries? Hm. I’m not a scout. But I watched a lot of video of the guy and it looks so jerky. I’ve also heard that duplicating his delivery is also an issue, so his front foot always lands somewhere different.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 2, 2011 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Huh:

“I, personally, think he has the best mechanics in the big leagues, the most efficient,” Bauer said. “There are a lot of guys out there who have really good mechanics. Cliff Lee is one of them. I think the more you torque and use your body, the less stress you put on your arm. I actually think that is preferable to the guys who use mostly arm.”

This seems to be a controversial idea, at least – Lincecum’s delivery (and size) were the main reasons teams avoided him in the draft a few years back.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 2, 2011 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

There are a lot of guys

Who have “perfect mechanics” that get injured. Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Strasburg, Kris benson. Personally, I think the more you use your legs/hips in your delivery, the less stress you put on the arm.

by bosten7 on Jun 2, 2011 1:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I know the Strasburg types aren’t immune from injury either – all pitchers are risky. But their mechanics are still known as ‘perfect’ for a reason.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 2, 2011 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

um

If I’m not mistaken, there were some whispers about Strasburg’s delivery. Something about his arm slot and whatnot? (Don’t have quotes, going on a faltering memory….)

by insane_sanity on Jun 3, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought the inverted W

was the opposite of good mechanics

OT: Why isn’t it just called an “M”?

by Mr. E on Jun 2, 2011 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

The importance of the “inverted W” is greatly overstated. John Candelaria threw with one for 20 years…

by Vlad on Jun 2, 2011 7:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Sure, he got hurt a lot – but none of the injuries were the type that were supposed to result from the “inverted W”. It was all elbow problems and knee problems and nerve problems and crap like that. And the bottom line is that if you throw 2,500 ML innings, then your team doesn’t have any right to complain.

Candelaria’s “inverted W”: http://www.flickr.com/photos/12559952@N07/1305794432/

by Vlad on Jun 2, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I heart the Candy Man.

That is all.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 2, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I. too

heart the Candy Man. For one game the best Buc pitcher in the last 50 years.

by meandterry on Jun 4, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Personally, I think the more you use your legs/hips in your delivery, the less stress you put on the arm."

There’s a fella named “Ryan” that agrees with you.

As do I.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 2, 2011 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ryan is the opposite of a legs/hips guy...

Ryan is a “tall and fall” advocate while the “drop and drive” guys generate velocity from the legs and hips. It has long been thought that the drop and drive techniques places more stress on the shoulder and arm because even though you are using your hips you are still throwing more with the “arm” than in the tall and fall in which you’re using basically gravity to fall towards the plate and creating momemtum.

I can see why so many people are afraid of Bauer’s mechanics because they fly in the face of conventional wisdom. That said, this whole field is basically still wide open when it comes to knowing what causes arm injuries. I’m not willing to say Bauer is wrong because he doesn’t agree with conventional thought. In fact he may be on to a whole new way of thinking. The problem is there isn’t enough data to support and given what most believe now he is still a risk.

#AllTheBuntsAreBad!

by Slick1 on Jun 2, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

I always thought Ryan was a leg-drive guy.

Perhaps that was Buddy Ryan. Hmm.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 2, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nolan Ryan was definately leg drive when he pitched

hard to believe he would now have his pitchers do the opposite

by white angus on Jun 2, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

false

#AllTheBuntsAreBad!

by Slick1 on Jun 2, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well unless...

he decide to lie about his own mechanics in his book. It’s possible but I’m not sure what that would get him.

#AllTheBuntsAreBad!

by Slick1 on Jun 2, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

did you ever watch Ryan pitch?

it was all leg drive. he even worked out his legs before AND after starts, like dennis rodman…

leg drive baby!!!

by white angus on Jun 2, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I did...

and he was straight up. It may have appeared to be leg drive but it was not. He and Clemens are two of my favorite pitchers and I watched them a lot. Every pitcher uses his legs but Ryan did not, 100% DID NOT, drive with his legs. This isn’t a debatable thing unless you feel like arguing with Ryan himself.

#AllTheBuntsAreBad!

by Slick1 on Jun 2, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

well, duh

and i cant argue with Ryan because i cant understand a damn thing he says… i still have no clue what kind of pain killer he used to sell back when he played… lol

by white angus on Jun 2, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was

Ahhhhhhdvill….aaaaaaaaadvanced medicine for paaaaaiiiin.

by NastyNate82 on Jun 2, 2011 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tom Seaver, Doug Drabke – drop and drive
Nolan Ryan, Roger Clements – tall and fall

#AllTheBuntsAreBad!

by Slick1 on Jun 2, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, tall and fall...

I read his book, it’s pretty interesting. I don’t agree with his all of his theories but I do think his mechanics are rock solid.

#AllTheBuntsAreBad!

by Slick1 on Jun 2, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

maybe Ryan should stick with raisin' cattle...

cuz he was definately a leg drive pitcher.

tall and fall- jim palmer, tom glavine
leg drive- nolan ryan, tom seaver, roger clemens

by white angus on Jun 2, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Does that put more stress on other parts of the body, though? Such as the back?

"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto

by blackjackfishtaco on Jun 2, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

The other muscles in the body are bigger and stronger

and using all of them effectively reduces strain on all body parts, in theory

by jackiegleason on Jun 2, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

but your arm also has to catch up to your body for its release point...

which means your arm could be moving even faster than a normal windup

by white angus on Jun 2, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

All true

I’m with joegonzo, but your points are correct here too.

In a way, I wish we picked 8th. I think Bauer will be pretty good, and the more like him, the farther we might advance proper pitching mechanics, and the destruction of outdated and unsupported ideas like 120-limit long toss.

by azibuck on Jun 2, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know Carlos Gomez (former THT writer and current international scouting director for the Diamondbacks) was always a fan of violent, twisting deliveries. I believe he posited that putting the bulk of the effort into the body reduced arm injuries and increased velocity.

by wickethewok on Jun 2, 2011 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carlos Gomez

AKA “Chad Bradford Wannabe”.

I miss him at BTF.

by Vlad on Jun 2, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Long term troubles

I find it hard to believe that Bauer can even come close to Cole’s stuff. Cole has the best fastball in the draft, a plus slider, and a major league change up right now. Cole’s stuff is good enough to be up mid-season next year. The only reason Bauer is getting any attention is because so many people missed on Lincecum. His stats have made people re-think the awful delivery. This is a fad that will pass. Not enough time has gone by to call Lincecum’s mechanics a better way to pitch. He may eliminate arm stress, but his delivery will be harder and harder to do every year. I am willing to bet Lincecum’s career is shorter because he will not continue to be able to keep up his good results. His drop off will come quicker and faster than most other pitchers. At least until we know that answer Bauer should be avoided. It is too early in the Lincecum delivery experiment to pick someone #1 overall on the not-yet-in-results.
Also if you want to draft someone you think might avoid arm injuries then Hultzen is your guy. The pitching coach at Virginia turns out pitchers that do not get arm troubles. He is the best pitching coach in the nation.
Still, Rendon is my choice. Cole is good enough. Everyone else is a mistake or at least a long shot gamble.

by SojourningPirate on Jun 2, 2011 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know, taking into account how college pitchers do against college hitters

I don’t think is just a fad. I’m guessing that if college hitters can regularly square up on a 98 MPH fastball, plus slider, and plus change that AA hitters could probably square up on the same pitch, as well as obviously major league hitters. Cole’s stuff/approach/something will have to get better it seems to get good hitters out regularly.

by Justin Mos on Jun 2, 2011 4:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

if healthy rendon must be the choice

i feel he is the best prospect. and i will root hard for him when draft day comes. i dont remember a draft where i was pulling for a certain player so much. The injuries worry me like everyone else, but if the pirates are sure he is healthy i really don’t see any reason for them to not take him.

by bbautista24 on Jun 2, 2011 3:33 AM EDT reply actions  

why should we bypass pitchers altogether when every good team wins with pitching? we are proving that in Pitt right now...

we could easily waste this pick by going with a bat instead of an arm.

that being said, im at the point where i think whomever we pick will be a good choice.

by white angus on Jun 2, 2011 6:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Because the pitching this year poses more questions than the bats — with number one over all, avoid as much risk as one can.

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Jun 2, 2011 8:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

no, the pitching this year poses more questions than THE BAT... not plural

Rendon is the only bat worth taking #1, and pirates fans will be hugely disappointed if Rendon isnt the choice… doesnt matter which pitcher is taken, fans will think the draft will be a bust

by white angus on Jun 2, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm a fan

and I find it interesting that the only bat worth taking at #1 has injury problems (plural).

I’m still not buying the “I stretched out too much and my arm hurts because of it” excuse from Rendon — especially that over-stretching has kept him out of the field effectively the entire season? Come on…

by insane_sanity on Jun 3, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

#AllTheBuntsAreBad!

by Slick1 on Jun 2, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Last time I checked, you can’t win a baseball game by scoring 0 runs.

by Thunder on Jun 2, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

you actually checked?

i thought something like that was pretty obvious to everyone.

by white angus on Jun 2, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Last time I checked, you can’t win a baseball game by scoring 0 runs.

(Unless there’s a forfeit.)

by Vlad on Jun 2, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Last time I checked, you can’t win a baseball game by scoring 0 runs.

However, last time I checked the lineup has 8 different hitters that can all contribute to runs, whereas, there’s only ONE pitcher at a time.

Therefore, each hitter is only really responsible for 12.5% of the offense (or runs).

The pitcher is responsible for 100% of the pitching.

Seems to me finding a fantastic pitcher is far, far more important than finding a hitter.

by impliedi on Jun 2, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's not to say that I'm against drafting Rendon or anybody else.

I don’t agree when people try to use the past history of draft busts as some sort reason to avoid a pitcher.

I just hope the Pirates pick the person that they feel will be the most successful and have the biggest impact on the Major League club during their careers.

That can be a pitcher, hitter, whatever.

by impliedi on Jun 2, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

That can be a pitcher, hitter, whatever.

I say we draft a manager with the first pick! or a bat boy.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jun 3, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

that's silly math

(I know you’re being intentionally simplistic and not literal here, but this argument is a pet peeve of mine).

Starters only pitch every fifth game, whereas good position players are hopefully playing almost every day, so using your 12.5% – 100% metric, you’re at best looking at 12.5% vs. 20%.

And that 20% is of course only accurate if they’re also pitching complete games every time. If we generously estimate seven-inning outings, you’re looking at more like 15%. Which is still a little more than 12.5%, true, but not much a difference.

(Postscript: the 12.5% figure for batters also assumes that every hitter is expected to contribute equally — we would probably figure that in an average lineup the C and SS would contribute less, and hopefully a hitter like Rendon could provide more like 15-20% of the offense.)

by Garrett122 on Jun 2, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

for the record

you’re not taking into consideration Rendon’s glove either — I’m very much impressed with the fact he’s a potential bat/glove player, and not just a bat.

As I posted elsewhere, I’m just concerned about his shoulder. Per his own words, the injury was the result of “over stretching” — I just don’t buy that, I really don’t. Then, to apply the logic that an injury to his right shoulder (his back-shoulder, not lead-shoulder at the plate) is sapping his power? Again, doesn’t’ make sense to me. I believe the bat change had something to do with it…but he’s supposed to have “power” — he’ll be hitting with wood from here on out…is he going to blame those bats for lack of power too?

by insane_sanity on Jun 3, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ask Rich Harden if high torque motions are sustainable.

When healthy Harden is the best pitcher in the game, but he was healthy 30 innings a year.

Harden also threw 100, not low 90s. I’m not interest in Bauer at 1 at all.

It will be Rendon.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jun 2, 2011 7:30 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

This is not rocket science

If everything checks out with Rendon, he has to be the pick. There is so much pitching depth in this draft. The scouts can focus on the prep pitchers throughout the rest of the draft.

by rydog2469 on Jun 2, 2011 9:00 AM EDT reply actions  

That's good logic

deep pitching depth plus we need hitting in a bad way.

Rendon is the only hitter worthy though, I’d rather have springer than Starling but neither should even be a thought on FO’s mind.

by jackiegleason on Jun 2, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

That UCLA article really has me interested in Bauer..

Obviously, I don’t think he should be the pick for all of the reasons stated above.

However, if he is the pick somehow, I’ll probably root harder for him than I would anyone else. I love guys that love the game.

I get the feeling Tony Sanchez is one of those guys as well.

by jlk9697 on Jun 2, 2011 11:48 AM EDT reply actions  

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