On Not Promoting Alex Presley, And What To Think When Something Doesn't Make Sense
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 17, 2011 4:37 AM EDT
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Seeing the Moneyball trailer on the same day as we got the news about Alex Presley not being called up for interleague play has me thinking about a bunch of loosely connected ideas.
First: Allow me to emphasize that the decision about whether or not to promote Presley for the next two weeks is not a matter of grand importance.
That said, I don't get it at all. Even if you think Xavier Paul and Lyle Overbay should play ahead of Presley (which I don't really agree with, but which I think is at least a reasonable position), I don't understand not calling Presley up. Pedro Ciriaco serves no purpose on the roster, and the Bucs seem to have no interest in him. With Paul, Garrett Jones and Overbay all presumably in the lineup against righties, and with one of Brandon Wood or Josh Harrison at third, you've got the following bench:
Wood/Harrison
Ciriaco
There's really no one there who can hit major-league, right-handed pitching except perhaps Harrison, who will probably be in the lineup a lot of the time. Meanwhile, Presley and Ciriaco are both on the 40-man roster and have options, so switching one out for the other for a few days or a couple weeks doesn't cost anything and won't produce any roster problems. By removing a completely superfluous player, the Pirates give themselves more flexibility to pinch-hit. It's true that you don't need as much flexibility on your bench when playing in an AL park, but what if you want to sub Diaz for Jones in the sixth inning because a lefty reliever is on the hill, and then Diaz has to face a good righty reliever later?
Is this a big deal? No. Personally, I'd rather see Presley play every day instead of Paul anyway, but I admit that the difference between them would likely be small over only a couple weeks' worth of games. And if Presley's going to be a bench player, he matters even less. But if you had the chance to add some offensive firepower to either a lineup or a bench that desperately needs it, and all you had to do to get that offensive firepower was to demote a player who served no obvious puprose, why wouldn't you do it?
Anyway, the Moneyball trailer got me to thinking about how different blogging is than when I started, back in 2004. Baseball bloggers were a lot more polemical then. Part of that was probably that bloggers simply didn't have large audiences, and therefore felt less responsibility than they do now. Now a lot of them have rather large audiences and are taken at least somewhat seriously.
But part of it was that there legitimately were a lot of teams that were run pretty badly. Chuck Lamar was running the Devil Rays. Allard Baird was in charge of the Royals. Bill Bavasi was with the Mariners. Omar Minaya. Dave Littlefield, of course. Plus a bunch of guys who are maybe more debatable but that, I would argue, don't really hold a candle to most GMs today, like Ed Wade (who is still a GM today, and is kind of proving my point), Joe Garagiola Jr., Brian Sabean (still a GM and has rehabilitated his reputation to a great degree), and J.P. Ricciardi (who ironically entered the Blue Jays job as one of the new-school guys).
Looking around baseball now, who are the suckers? There are a few teams that aren't run very well, like the Astros and Dodgers, but these are, increasingly, few and far between.
If this were 2004, and Dave Littlefield had done what Neal Huntington* is now doing to Alex Presley, I really would have let Littlefield have it. Typically, when Littlefield did something that didn't appear to make sense, there was no reasoning behind it, or the reasoning was terrible, or maybe it happened because his goals for the franchise were so different from those of most fans that the move was hard for us to understand.
With Huntington, I have to guess there was some reason behind this Presley decision. I just don't know what it is. Maybe they feel like Presley has developmental checkpoints to pass before he comes up again, or something. Going back to Moneyball, it kind of reminds me of when Beane traded Jeremy Giambi for John Mabry in a trade, at the time, that made no sense at all. I recently just skimmed the Baseball Think Factory thread about that trade (summarized here - it's an interesting little time capsule), and there was some criticism in there about the attitude that, when Beane did something that didn't look right, there had to be some angle we couldn't see, whereas when other GMs did strange things, they were simply idiots.
There's no doubt that a certain segment of baseball fans at that time were too sycophantic about Beane, and, uh, Michael Lewis, who wrote Moneyball, was certainly one of them. But at the same time, hadn't Beane earned a certain amount of benefit of the doubt that a lot of other GMs hadn't? (As it turned out, Beane was upset that Giambi had been caught in a strip club, after getting in trouble for marijuana possession months before.)
This isn't to say that Huntington should be immune from criticism. Sycophancy is boring, and it doesn't do anyone any good. If Huntington does something I don't agree with, I'm going to say so, particularly when it comes to players with long track records, and players I watch every day. But it's healthy to occasionally remind ourselves that Huntington isn't an idiot, and we don't have all the information he does. Based on all the information available to me, keeping Presley in the minors makes no sense. But it's possible that Huntington has access to relevant information that we don't have.
*At least a couple of articles about the decision have focused on Clint Hurdle's role in making it, to the point that it almost sounds like it was Hurdle's decision. Huntington, though, has (or should have?) the authority to overrule Hurdle in these kinds of decisions, so I will assume here that keeping Presley in the minors was ultimately Huntington's decision. Hurdle says that one reason for not making the move is that he doesn't want to play with only one backup infielder during the games played with NL rules. Which, of course, doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since he's effectively been doing that for weeks, what with Harrison being out for several days and Ciriaco almost never playing. Also, the DH forces Hurdle to play with one fewer guy on the bench regardless, so he's choosing to go with just one bench outfielder, which one would think presents problems of its own, particularly considering how one-dimensional Diaz is.
Maybe Huntington's ultimate reason for not getting in Hurdle's way here is keeping Hurdle happy, particularly when it involves a decision that should only have a small impact overall. Don't sweat the small stuff. I think I read that in an airport bookstore somewhere.
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I think your theory in the last paragraph is the most likely one.
“Maybe Huntington’s ultimate reason for not getting in Hurdle’s way here is keeping Hurdle happy, particularly when it involves a decision that should only have a small impact overall.”
The team is outperforming everyone’s expectations, and Hurdle is a significant reason why, so he probably is getting a bit more leeway when it comes to minor roster moves. Maybe NH can point to this as an example of when he threw Hurdle a bone, and say, “Alright Clint, remember when I didn’t send down Ciriaco back in June? How about you stop bunting so goddamn much, and we’ll call it even.”
You've put your finger on it
The impact would probably be small. Presley would replace Paul, and it’s unlikely that Presley could perform better in any meaningful way in the short term.
Viva Clemente!
we all need to agree on my below statement...
the FO and our manager know alot more about baseball than all of us put together.
let them do their jobs.
+10000000000000
I find it funny that, despite the fact that Charlie admits it’s probably not a big deal, he writes one of his longest posts of the year about it!
I agree with zogger, that maybe Harrison isn’t 100%, so it would make even more sense not to shorthand your infield options.
I can’t imagine carrying 6 outfielders on your team for any period of time, so if Presley’s going to come up, it should be to replace an outfielder, not Ciriaco. The Pirates 4 hottest hands right now are probably McCutchen, Tabata, Jones, and Paul. So they’re all going to get playing time. Overbay’s not coming out of the line-up, so the only way to get all 4 of those guys in the line-up is to have one of them DH. So I don’t see the point of bringing Presley up to ride the pine.
by impliedi on Jun 17, 2011 8:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
that was my point.
we can all say that Presley deserves a chance to play, but do we want him to ride the pine.
i hate to say it, but hes not going to start much if he came up right now.
by white angus on Jun 17, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
This isn't right....
This is a big deal for this team right now. They are 2 games over .500 and entering the most difficult stretch of 2 weeks of games that they will face all season and they are going in shorthanded.
Your comment about Harrison not being 100% isn’t right. The guy started yesterday. If you can start a ML game you are close enough to 100%. If he wasn’t healthy they were ready to DL him and call up d’Arnaud. And, either way, an injury situation can be remedied in 24 hours.
The team is playing with a 24 man roster. Presley gives you options. He can go back down in two weeks and nobody is worse off and the team is better.
I am interviewing Neal Huntington today. Rest assured it will be a lead topic. The interview will play after the game tonight.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
Presley isnt the answer
Let him stay hot and play everyday. He wouldn’t get at bats regularly in the majors. Having Presley as dh or right field over Paul I think is even. Paul does a great job for a guy who has to pinch hit and spot start. Very good stats at a tough situation.
by Joey Mooney on Jun 17, 2011 12:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Exactly
Paul is a very similar player to Presley with similar experience. Why doesn’t he need to “play every day in AAA?”
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
because Paul is out of options; while he may need to play every day, he can’t crack our starting lineup…and I don’t think we’d be able to sneak him to AAA.
That is the main difference between Paul and Presley — one can be in AAA to play every day, the other needs to stay at the ML level so we do not lose him (or risk waivers); thus he is relegated to 4th string/PH duty.
by insane_sanity on Jun 17, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Misses the point
If Presley can’t succeed in a part-time role—which is the only one he’s ever likely to get anyway—neither can Paul. They’re just setting Paul up for failure, if that’s the case.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
I’m not saying Presley can’t succeed in a part-time role. I’m saying the part-time role he would fill is already taken by Paul, and the fact that Presley has options remaining allows the organization to keep both players.
If they are both vying for the same part-time role that Paul is in right now, swapping out Presley-for-Paul doesn’t make much sense as we would probably lose Paul in doing so
The current roster configuration allows the organization to keep both Paul and Presley — is the organization better with both players in the fold? That’s how I’m looking at what is going on…
by insane_sanity on Jun 17, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn’t Presley vs. Paul. It’s Presley vs. an empty roster spot. You can’t tell me that, with a five-man bench (and one of them being Dusty Brown), there’s nothing for the fifth guy to do. That’s absurd. A five-man bench is too few.
And the similarity between Paul and Presley is irrelevant. Even if they just need a PH against a LHP, there’s a use for Presley. He’s hit LHPs pretty well this year. Meanwhile, Overbay, Jones and Paul (he had big splits in the minors) can’t hit LHPs, and Ciriaco can’t hit anybody at all.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Presley will be 26 in a month and is never likely to be a starter in the majors. The shopworn “he needs to play everyday” line, if it means anything at all, is an argument against ever bringing him up.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
no, not necessarily
thats used for the younger guys, like d’arnaud and lambo
lets try this for example… lets say Tabata was waiting for his chance in AAA right now, and the current Pitt outfield is doing acceptable work. but Tabs is putting up numbers similar to Presley. Do you bring him up for a couple of weeks to sit on the bench, or do you let him play every day in AAA and wait for a true real chance?
you keep him down in AAA unless theres an opening for a STARTER. or you make room THEN make him a starter. you dont have him riding the pine.
How is this related to Presley?
The argument you make applies to guys who are young and profile as a starter. Presley is neither. Presley is a 4th outfielder/fringe starter. he should get used to playing from the bench.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Not me
I’ve said all along, including the very post you’re responding to, that Presley does not profile as a starter in the majors. He has nothing whatsoever to do with Tabata.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Ditto
But I do think he could be a very good fourth OF. Definitely better than Paul or Diaz.
www.stealingfirstbase.com
by Stealing First Base on Jun 17, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Dunno about that
He’s pretty much the same guy as Paul, but with less defensive value. The only reason people like him so much more than Paul is they’re comparing Presley’s minor league numbers to Paul’s major league numbers.
see, youre saying DEFINATELY better than Paul or Diaz but theres no way of proving that
except to bring him up and cross your fingers… Diaz is fine. Paul is fine.
if Diaz and Paul are fine, and Presley is a backup outfielder as well, then what the hell can you do?
wow, this blog has either hit an all-time high or an all-time low
We’re arguing about the merits of bringing up a guy who would be the SIXTH outfielder on this team, a guy who the consensus seems to be will never be a starter in this league, so he can come up and ride the bench. Wow.
Anybody that’s looking for the 6th outfielder to provide a spark for the offense is cheering for a team with an atrocious offense.
Makes me pine for the days of discussing possibly losing Brandon Moss on waivers or the good, the bad and the ugly about Lastings Milledge.
This team will never be a contender if topics such as whether to promote the backup to the backup to the backup outfielder are even blips on the radar screen. Oh well, there goes my optimism for the year.
by impliedi on Jun 17, 2011 9:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Your last paragraph is a non-sequitur. We debate these things not because they’re matters of extraordinary importance (as I pointed out like nine times in my post), but because we’re hardcore fans who care about how the roster is constructed. It’s the same reason we argue about players in the low minors who arguably have a much smaller chance than Presley of contributing.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 17, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
But Charlie, we debate these non issues to death because we’re hardcore fans of a non-contending team. I can’t imagine hardcore Yankees fans would spend more than a second discussing the merits of promoting a 6th outfielder for an interleague series and how their
by impliedi on Jun 18, 2011 7:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
(Sorry hit reply early) front office is making a bad move not promoting the guy.
I would certainly hope that if the Pirates become year-in, year-out contenders these kind of topics would get little to no notice.
Everybody’s entitled to their opinions, but we obsess over the minor leagues BECAUSE the major league team has been poor and the only hope is for the future.
by impliedi on Jun 18, 2011 7:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Disagree with the premise.
FO and managers do know a lot more then we do. However, that does not mean that they do not make errors and that on some occasions our ideas that conflict their’s are actually correct. Being a lemming kinda sucks. Personally, I think this move is based on a blind spot of Hurdle, which Charlie summed up very well in the last paragraph.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
And in pro sports in general...
…GMs/coaches are often too conservative when choosing between “their guys” and new guys. Think Craig Wilson, James, Harrison, etc. I don’t know if it’s bowing to the locker room dynamic or what, but it’s worth criticizing. I’m very disappointed that we don’t get to see Presley this weekend.
well, no offense, but i trust the people who get paid to make baseball decisions know alot more than us blog geeks
and for the record, how can anyone be disappointed right now when the Pirates are playing better than they have in over a decade?
by white angus on Jun 17, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not trying to get Huntington fired so that I can be hired,
but deferring all my opinions to NH would take a lot of the fun out of being a fan.
W.A.....
this is a discussion board. As others have said, we aren’t blindly following the leader. People make bad decisions for various reasons. I think, and I may well be wrong, that this is a bad decision.
Rather than just saying “they know more, they are right,” tell me why it is better to have Ciriaco on the roster the next two weeks rather than Presley.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
because we are lacking in Pedro's on the 25 man roster...
by white angus on Jun 17, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Most cogent reason I've seen
Seriously.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
im sorry, but NH could care less about keeping Hurdle happy.
his job is to turn the pirates into a winner AND make the team some money.
if NH truly cared about that, garret fricken atkins would still be on our team.
by white angus on Jun 17, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree somewhat. I think it’s more that Hurdle has told NH he doesn’t need/wouldn’t play Presley over Paul/Diaz. Neal can call him up but Hurdle sets the lineup card and there’s no point in having him ride the pine all month.
And not worth a fight
After all, NH could insist on Presley getting PAs, but that damages the relationship.
As Charlie says, this is a tiny difference over a 2 week period. One thing that SABR is supposed to teach us is that the gaps aren’t as big as we like to think – Pujols is .05 wins better per game than a replacement player.
I agree that it seems like a not-great move. But I think it’s nuts to imagine it being important. Statistically, it costs us maybe a run over a dozen games.
They are making...
the decision together. It isn’t one of the other, it’s a discussion.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
"Damn straight"
— Dave Littlefield
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Yeah I find this kind of insulting...
people were saying the same things about Littlefield when he took over and guess what, they were wrong. If you want to have blind faith in your leaders that’s great. As for me I’ll continue to ask questions and look for answers when I see something that doesn’t look right. Charlie said it best though, I think Huntington has it least earned enough respect from to think about what his motives are before I jump to the “this is a bad decision.” Same rules apply for politics. We shouldn’t just assume our leaders are incredibly smart because they had the benefit of being born into a wealthy family and were given every privilege life had to offer. I’ll stop here so this doesn’t get political but I’ll simply say that blind faith is not only dangerous but is a little lazy.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
heh, no worries.
Besides, where I live I think I can actually be arrested for that.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
"...our leaders are incredibly smart because they had the benefit of being born into a wealthy family.."
or went to Hahvud.
But to your point, I heard that the FO and CH had more baseball knowledge than the rest of us put together. I didn’t hear anyone admitting to having blind faith. Charlie threw out some theories for people to discuss, which is cool and what we are supposed to do here. But to throw out hyperbole like having “blind faith in your leaders” is a little over the top especially on this very minor non-move. Besides, hopefully we all began learning that painful lesson beginning in Jan 2009 and don’t need to repeat it. Oops.
the FO and our manager know alot more about baseball than all of us put together.
let them do their jobs.
I took this to mean that they know better so we should all STFU and just let them do their jobs. I don’t think what I said is hyperbole. That sure sounds like blind faith to me.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Yes, just because someone has a job doesn’t mean they do it well. I have a decent job in a competitive field, but there are thousands, maybe millions, of people who could do a better job than me if given the same break.
"just because someone has a job doesn’t mean they do it well"
Preaching to the choir, brutha. I work near Wash, D.C., politician and bureaucrat heaven.
STFU?
Nah. If everyone with an opinion STFU we couldn’t have these world saving discussions. So I hope you continue to post, even on nit pick issues like this, because I respect your right to Speak TFU.
We just have different definitions of blind faith and hyperbole. Blind faith to me is accepting everything done/said by leadership as gospel. I haven’t noticed anyone of that persuasion on this site.
We just have different definitions of blind faith and hyperbole. Blind faith to me is accepting everything done/said by leadership as gospel.
We don’t we have different definitions (I mean how many can you have?). We are simply misinterpeting the intent of someone’s message. I read it one way, you another. I took it as a “front office can do no wrong” comment. Thefore, my reply was not hyperbole.
I haven’t noticed anyone of that persuasion on this site.
Guess you haven’t been here too long. A poster here by the name of CabrerraKilledMyChildhood epitomized that comment.
So I hope you continue to post, even on nit pick issues like this, because I respect your right to Speak TFU.
Thanks for your endorsement. No offense but this entire sentence is a litte condescending. If this issue is of so little importance to you than why did you feel the need to jump in? And honestly, I’m not even sure what point you are trying to make. Something about free speech?
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
I'm posting this....
all over this thread. I am interviewing Neal today. It will play on the postgame tonight.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
You are on my list, Charlie.
I have a personal rule against looking up the definition of a more than one word per post. This post requires me to do it twice. Cut it out.
Good day.
You're just trying to start an argument
by JRoth95 on Jun 17, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 17, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
or
maybe presley is on bostom player no be named later list and boston does not want to waste 1 of his options.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
That would mean the our FO would value Presley and Quadzilla equally
I just don’t see them as equals. Just me. I guess position scarcity comes into play, but I still don’t see them in the same category
by Wizard of Woz on Jun 17, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Nope
The option was already used when they sent him to AAA at the start of the year. He can go up and down any number of times the rest of this year without using another one.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
still could be on list
and boston want’s to watch him play every day.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
Do you have to have an error of spelling or grammar in every one of your posts?
Thank you Ned Colletti.
In the context of the question being asked, he should have phrased his sentence using, “need to have,” instead.
I'd have phrased it
“Must you have”
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 17, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
oh give me a break
Why should he have phrased the question “need to have”? What rule of English usage says that you can’t use “have to” in that situation? My dictionary lists “be obliged or find it necessary to do a specific thing” as the third meaning of “have” (in phrases like “have to do something”).
Grammar trolling in general is kind of annoying, but grammar trolling in the service of completely made-up usage rules is beyond the limit.
(Puns based on non-native speakers’ usage errors are the height of wit, of course.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jun 17, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Must you have would probably be better as well...
I was illustrating to ry3br3ad how his command of grammar was not without fault. You have correctly defined the word, “have,” but did not make mention of how that definition supports the use of the phrase, “have to have.” A phrase that is in common usage is not grammatically correct through the frequency with which it is used. The turn of phrase in question is quite common, however it is not grammatically accurate.
With that being stated, this is an admittedly pointless argument, so I propose that we cease.
“You… did not make mention of how that definition supports the use of the phrase, have to have.’”
Yes, I did. I quoted the phrase “have to do something”; “have to have” is an instance of “have to do something.” Your attempt to show ryebr3ad how his command of grammar was not without fault was itself erroneous.
Anyway, yeah, pointless, especially this post here.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jun 17, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, don't feed it.
Yesterday he hoped the Pirates wouldn’t sign Bell so he could stick it to some posters here. Today he’s a grammar troll. But the common theme in nearly all of his posts are that he is a troll.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Hurdle’s been a major positive for the team this year, but he’s got a couple blind spots. One is the bunt fetish. Another is the fascination with having speedy glove guys who can’t hit on the bench.
We’ve got incontrovertible evidence now that Ciriaco serves no purpose on this team, yet apparently it’s vital to continue having him serve no purpose.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Jun 17, 2011 9:03 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yes. Those are definitely Hurdle's weaknesses.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Here's what hasn't changed enough
Great post! A lot has changed for the better. But GM’s, NH included,are still very reluctant to cut their losses when a “name” FA signing doesn’t work out. If Overbay didn’t have a $5 m contract, this weekend Jones would be at 1B, Paul in RF and Presley at DH.
But NH does not want to admit his mistake yet. It compounds the mistake to continue giving Overbay playing time, but it lets them hold out faint hope that he suddenly start to hit again, even though his performance this year is part of a long term trend.
Ciriaco is really not the issue. It may well make sense -due to Harrison’s fragility-to have someone like Ciriaco on the roster for a while. Lot’s of teams carry back-up IF’s who can’t hit. But carrying a 1B who can’t hit is never a good idea.
As Chuck Noll used to say, it’s time for Overbay to “find his life’s work.”
you could also say that if we didnt have Overbay...
that Jones would have stunk at 1B full time instead of achieving part time in RF.
you could also say that Presley would still only be a part time player sharing duty with Diaz.
we have a winning record, and its because of the whole team, not just a couple random guys.
by white angus on Jun 17, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Jones is a platoon or bench player regardless of Overbay
I don’t think keeping Overbay is a mistake because he blocks Jones. It’s a mistake because Overbay can no longer hit.
Jones is not the long-term solution to anything. I have no problem benching him or cutting him if he starts hitting as badly as Overbay. Once Overbay finally goes, Jones should be platooned with at 1B for a while. Once Pearce is healthy, Jones/Pearce is worth a try for 50 games or so. But if Jones doesn’t hit, he should be pushed aside for Bowker or Hague. If Jones does hit well, then keep him until Curry is ready.
enough with the Bowker stuff... hes pretty much done as a Pirate
im not going to comment about Hague because i really shouldnt have to. i was a Curry guy once i heard we drafted him, and hes still doing very well in Altoona, but we arent going to wait until hes ready.
overbay will be gone in 2012. because of lacking internal options, i believe NH will sign another fill in for 1B in the offseason, so we should get another year of trashing a disappointing player.
by white angus on Jun 17, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
overbay will be gone in 2012. because of lacking internal options, i believe NH will sign another fill in for 1B in the offseason
And a catcher, no? Would they really go into next season with JJ as the starter?
McKenry too
he’s a little better than McKendry
by white angus on Jun 17, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
". . .so we should get another year of trashing a disappointing player."
I’m going to get a violin for you. Major League baseball players get paid millions of dollars for entertaining the masses. They have implicitly consented to non-malicious criticism. Pointing out a player is not performing well, hurting the team or a bad signing is all fair game.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
what if you want to sub Diaz for Jones in the sixth inning because a lefty reliever is on the hill, and then Diaz has to face a good righty reliever later?
I think the issue is that the Pirates see this as pretty much the only situation where Presley would be any use and it’s kind of an unlikely event. In any case, I think Hurdle has a lot more confidence in Diaz than we do and is probably comfortable with him taking an AB or two against right-handed pitching.
Using Presley to pinch hit for anyone else, you run into the fact that there’s only one infielder on the bench. If you use Presley to pinch-hit for say, Cedeno, then you have to bring in the backup infielder as part of the same move and use up two bench spots for one move.
I think I’d still rather have Presley on the bench than Ciriaco, but I’m guessing that’s how the Pirates see it.
6 outfielders dont serve a purpose at all, thats why Presley isnt in Pitt
we all know he deserves a shot, and he’ll get it soon enough.
by white angus on Jun 17, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
If not these 2...
weeks, when exactly do you see him getting a shot? Specifically please.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
The guy knows what he's talking about...
I mean he was a Curry man from the moment he was drafted…
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 17, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
first: we only actually have a handful of games with a DH.
we come back home for interleague which means we would have 6 outfielders and no DH. we then hit the road for the final interleague games.
last: it really depends on Jones. the team/hurdle obviously likes having Overbay on the field, but Jones may move there if Overbay hovers in the 220 range. Jones is stinging the ball right now, but we’ve seen that before. it could disappear as fast as a cheesecake in Cecil Fielder’s fridge.
i think Presley gets a shot if Paul begins to struggle or one of our LH batters gets hurt.
i dont really see a time table.
Question is...
does the cheesecake disappear faster in Cecil’s fridge…or Prince’s?
Do they share the same fridge? Will there be a collision? Turn that Richter scale up to 11, folks.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
hell no, thats the real reason why Cecil and Prince dont talk to each other
its not the misused bonus money, its the lack of cubic footage in the subzero
Prince's warmup on deck...
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 17, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
We need to get one black hole out of the lineup vs the AL.
No one says it HAS to be the RF. We have a SS, that except for a 6 game stretch in May, is below the Mendoza line (.197). That same player is in the 5 LEAST valuable starting SS in the majors according to Fangraphs. If he was in the AL, he’d be the least valuable SS. At least he has Tejada, Betancourt and Ramirez to keep him company, and somehow, I don’t expect Ramirez there at the end of the season.
Yes, I realize that bringing up D’Arnaud opens a can of worms with the 40 man roster, and possibly burning an option, but if he can hit .250 and play passable defense, it has to be better than what we are getting out of Cedeno now.
by Thunder on Jun 17, 2011 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ronny is playing
some damn fine defense.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 17, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
from what I understand...
he’s possibly the most athletic player in our organization — don’t believe range to be an issue.
Thunder: D’Arnaud has 4 errors in 148 chances; Ronny has his 4 in 300+ — I think “chances” are more important than “games”.
by insane_sanity on Jun 17, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL, not close...
to the most athletic guy in the org…
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
D’Arnaud? Maybe I’m talking to the wrong people then….
by insane_sanity on Jun 17, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
D’Arnaud has 4 errors in 148 chances at SS, and NONE in 97 chances at 2B and 3B (only 8 chances at 3B). So…4 errors in 245 chances vs 4 errors in about 300 chances, isn’t nearly as bad as you’d like it to sound.
Umm…when we’re talking about replacing Ronny Cedeno at SS with Chase D’Arnaud, it is exactly as I made it sound – 4 errors in 148 chances vs. 4 errors in 300+ chances.
4 errors in 245 chances….covers up the 4 errors in 148 chances @ SS nicely, but you can sugar coat it any way you’d like.
by insane_sanity on Jun 17, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not a huge....
fan of Ronny. But his defense has been nothing short of outstanding since May 1.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
Yep
I was thinking about that after his superb cutoff throw to home yesterday. He’s been rock-solid for 6 weeks, making every expected play (except 1 I guess) and quite a few plus plays. He’s been an important part of our pitchers’ success.
Totally
I couldn’t believe how well-positioned he was for it. It was like he was a throwing machine, and Tabata’s throw went into the hopper at just the right moment.
agreed
If you watch that re-play, Ronny had himself set up perfectly for that relay.
His body was in line w/ home plate, his body was turned properly and he started his crow-hop at the perfect time to unload a strike to home plate.
You know…that is one thing I hate about Andrew McCutchen. Even when he gathers his feet behind a fly ball preparing to throw, there still is a period of time that he is then crow hopping and releasing the ball. Watching Ronny relay that throw makes McCutchen’s release time (catch-to-throw) seem even longer. (IMO)
by insane_sanity on Jun 17, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Cedeno top 5 defensively
Far as short stops go on defense he is top 5. He has made plays only a few others could make. He gets hot at times with the bat too. If chase bats under 300 in the AAA level what do you think he bats at a major league level?
by Joey Mooney on Jun 17, 2011 12:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
.250, like he said. With better on base and stolen base skills. Ronny has played great defense but it’s still not that hard to be an upgrade from his overall performance. We also have a glaring hole at 3B atm so it doesn’t even have to be Ronny that sits.
He is much faster than Cedeno, is better on the base paths, and will likely get on base more. So I don’t know how you would guess he would get as many as cedeno.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 17, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
What if we are all missing the point?
I hope Hurdle and NH throw us a big curveball tonight . What if tonight’s lineup has Harrison at DH, Jones at 1B, Wood at 3B and Paul in RF? I would love it. It would put people who have actually been hitting in lineup. And it would make sense in that scenario to have kept Ciriaco as the only backup IF on the bench.
You are going...
to see yesterday’s lineup with Jones as the DH and Overbay at first.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
if the decision has such a small impact, what does it matter in the first place?
I’m content with Presley getting ABs every day in AAA; that is better for him than sitting on the bench and playing here and there for the Bucs.
Because
for the next 2 weeks we use a DH six times. Him being up makes the team better.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
Since Hurdle’s usage of him shows that Ciriaco serves no purpose whatsoever, Presley would effectively be replacing an empty roster spot. Hard to see how this is debatable.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
no, you said it makes the team better
if he doesnt play, and ciriaco doesnt play, how does it make the team any better?
I think it is interesting that this conversation has essentially turned into one of admitting that it was a stupid decision, but freeing NH of the blame in order to place it with CH.
As for whether or not NH has earned the good faith to not be questioned, I would say no. Until he proves to be able to make good decisions of talent evaluation at LEAST more often than bad decisions of talent evaluation, I don’t see anything wrong with questioning him. Clearly Charlie doesn’t see anything wrong with it either, or he wouldn’t be questioning it.
What some of you are struggling with is untangling yourselves from your starry-eyed adherence to company policy.
i dont see what you mean at all
I am certainly not admitting it was a stupid decision, and I don’t even see why NH should be freed of any blame. Every roster decision is ultimately his call.
I also don’t see where the aforementioned struggling is happening!
by BurgherKing on Jun 17, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I checked over what I had said, and I missed where I spoke to you directly.
I chose to be imprecise because I did not wish to offend the person that I was speaking of. I do believe that there are some folks who disagree with the move but have decided to give NH a pass because he is NH. If that isn’t being a sycophant, I don’t know what is.
I checked over what I had said, and I missed where I spoke to you directly.
It sure seems like your first line in the post I responded to implied the collective, and every individual is a part of the collective. If you were speaking of an individual, you should have done so directly.
I do believe that there are some folks who disagree with the move but have decided to give NH a pass because he is NH.
It’s not sycophancy. It’s called priors in statistical methods. You have an opinion on an issue, but because you recognize that your opinion may be flawed, you temper it with your prior opinion. So, even if you dislike the move, tempering it with your prior opinion of NH’s moves in general is a very smart thing to do.
Well said BK...
so what you’re saying then is that dealing in absolutes isn’t always the most effective method for identifying someones true beliefs?
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
NH determined Jayson Werth wasn’t worth $127m. Crawford wasn’t worth $143m. John Lackey wasn’t worth $83m. There’s 3 more good decisions you probably didn’t factor in to help balance out the “poor talent evaluation.”
Don't forget
that this entire team is basically NH’s at this point, and they’re playing the best baseball we’ve seen in a decade. Seems to me like we could use some more of NH’s poor talent evaluation.
c'mon E...
NH didn’t have $127m.
NH didn’t have $143m.
NH didn’t have $83m.
Decisions dictated by not having the money…aren’t decisions at all.
by insane_sanity on Jun 17, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the point
I was just exaggerating. You can’t give NH a mark for signing Bobby Crosby as our backup just because we don’t have the money to sign a real SS and move Ronny to the utility role is entirely financial. And it doesn’t make sense to blame NH for not trading for a SS either since good ones don’t get moved very often either. Basically, it’s not as black and white as he is judging things.
JimiL:
For every Ryan Church there has been a Jose Tabata, and then some.
If fringe free agent signings are what is holding you back from having faith in our GM, then you need your priorities checked. Me, I prefer to look at the bigger picture, as should be done every year by every GM.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
i still cant figure out how come they cant understand it
Church was signed to be a backup. Crosby; backup. Diaz; backup. Tabata, future starter…
arghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wouldn't say it's a "stupid" decision
More of a conventional one. I mean, how many major league teams are carrying 6 outfielders? Probably none.
If anything, I might criticize them for carrying Ciriaco instead of D’Arnaud, since D’Arnaud can actually hit a little.
by maguro on Jun 17, 2011 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
except they want d'Arnaud to play every day
and the Pirates arent about ready to hand over the reigns to Chase just yet…
I'll have an interveiw
with Neal Huntington on the postgame show tonight. Rest assured this will be one of the topics.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
BTW,
is this a house, or a condo?
Is it in a good neighborhood?
;-)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 17, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Rumor....
has it, it will air on the postgame show.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
Slightly OT
but the “Moneyball” trailer makes me slightly ill. One of the pleasures of the book is that Beane comes off looking like an asshole and doesn’t really seem to care. It’s not his job to be a nice guy. It’s his job to be a ruthless son of a bitch and screw over the Omar Minayas any way he can.
The scene with Pitt and the kid in the trailer makes me go, “Uh-oh, they’re going to try to turn him from asshole genius to misunderstood nice-guy genius.”
Given that Sorkin is involved, I would have hoped they’d make him out to be more like Zuckerberg, and arrogant prick.
It’s also not going to help the marketing of the movie that the A’s pretty much suck balls right now. Billy Beane’s shit doesn’t even work in the regular season now.
Any new paradigm can work
until it’s widely adopted, and other practitioners become more adept than the originator. Beane’s ideas worked pretty well for a while.
My heros have always been Steelers...
I didn't mean
to sound like I was demeaning Beane’s contributions to our understanding of the game. The man IS an evil genius, but now almost every team has its own evil genius and that has leveled the field to a large extent. Beane had a couple of excellent insights, but even Einstein and Edison, once they got out their handful of great ideas, didn’t have a lot left either. Somebody else had to invent the PC.
Nevertheless
Movie looks pretty amazing in the trailer. I am ready to see it.
I’m still really excited to see it. It was a pretty great boot, with a great writer and a great cast. My big gripe is still that they took a two sport high school athlete that looks like this
And cast Jonah Hill to play him because he does math, so obviously he’s fat and unattractive.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 17, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty great book that is, my fingers and I need to have a talk. T and K aren’t even close.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 17, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right, he does look a little like Rudd in that picture.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 17, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Alex Presley and his impact on the Pirates
I like his stats. I think he’s been hitting great at the AAA level. I think he is pretty much equal to Paul. I think Presley could have a higher batting average but I doubt he could steal as many bases or as strong as an arm. To me they are equal and Pirates don’t need 2 guys like that.
by Joey Mooney on Jun 17, 2011 12:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Official Bucs Dugout pet player team:
Seems like we always have our favorite players who appear never given an opportunity by the FO:
Pearce
Presley
Bowker
Brad Lincoln
permanent seat of honor: Craig Wilson
I’m sure there are more.
don’t forget Neil Walker.
It took Iwamura’s injury + suckitude to get Walker a shot
by insane_sanity on Jun 17, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Back in the day...
You could have probably added JJ Davis to the list.
Stupidity should be painful.
by wrecking_ball on Jun 17, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Each year we should hand out a Craig Wilson Award.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
by Scranton on Jun 17, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The all haterade team
of players who got way too much PT
Ryan Church
ack-y Aki Iwamura
Jeromy Burnitz
Joe Randa
Pat Meares
Lyle Overbay
Bobby Crosby
Matt Morris
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 17, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Ill be happy
when Presley gets called up to simple stop all this talk about it. Its getting way overblown in my opinion.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
over thinking this
It is really quite simple. We only have 3 games here for the DH. All three are against righties, so the smart money has Jones DHing all 3. Paul is probably equal to Presley offensively considering his MLB experience, and is superior defensively. At this time those two are hot hitters.
Also on a 4-game winning streak with this roster.
The second part is having more than one backup IFer. There is a little more to consider than injuries. If you only have one backup it handcuffs your ability to pinch hit or make double switches or other managerial moves.
If there is a time later in the year where we play more than 3 games in a row with a DH, I think Presley will get the call.
By the way, every team with depth has good players in AAA or AA deserving of a chance. We should be happy we are reaching that point.
by ballparkfranks on Jun 17, 2011 1:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Clemente or 1960 WS Movie Yes, Moneyball No
The trailer for the new Moneyball movie doesn’t do anything for me, how exciting is it to see a player getting a walk at the plate? For a non fiction topic, I just don’t see the compelling achievement which will attract a big audience. While Billy Beane deserves full credit for the different, successful approach in developing a winner, those A’s teams usually went down in flames in the first round of the playoffs. In fact, the 2002 team had a 40 million dollar payroll, which wasn’t even the lowest in MLB. I’m struggling to see audiences flocking to a movie where the defining moment was beating the Angels, Rangers, and A’s. I feel the innovative approach to fielding a winning team would have been more appropriate for one of those ESPN 30 for 30 documentaries.
If someone wanted to mesh a good cast, direction, and true story, I can think of plenty of better ideas than Moneyball. How about a Roberto Clemente or 1960 World Series movie? Jackie Robinson, the 1969 Mets, or even 2008 Rays all would have been more compelling movies than this Brad Pitt film.
This could be so we can trade Jones
I agree with the Pirates decision to leave Presley in the minors. There he gets consistent ABs. When he comes up, he should get his shot to see what he can do in a platoon or something.
I like this decision because it gives the Pirates a chance to shop Jones. Overbay makes to much and is limited to 1B, and is hitting like garbage. Jones is hot right now, can play OF or 1B and is getting a chance to show off some DH skills. How many teams near the deadline are going to be looking for a lefty bat with some pop who can play one of those three positions?
Then a place will be open for Presley, and we do not have to give up a back up infielder on the bench. Presley will get a real shot rather than a weekend series.
If this results in a trade, then I will be thrilled, and it will all be worth it.
by SojourningPirate on Jun 18, 2011 1:48 AM EDT reply actions
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