Interesting Question
by joegonzo on Jun 28, 2011 11:35 PM EDT
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PrintAs the Pirates played the Toronto Blue Jays tonight, I began to think of how good Jose Bautista is doing for about the millionth time. I don't blame Neal for dealing him and I am not upset at what he got back, but the fact that he was ours and let him go just bothers me. A similar situation would be having a decent looking girlfriend who has been disappointing in the relationship and dumping her because of the problems at the time. Is it your fault, if after 2 or so years, you find out that she has become a Victoria's Secret underwear model? Not at all. But are you disappointed that it could have been yours if you had stuck with her and worked out the problems? You would be lying if you said no, but you shouldn't blame yourself because you could have never known it would happen.
Now during this break up, you have gotten a new woman who you are happy with. She is not what as amazing as the model, but she makes you happy. However, even though you are currently happy, dreaming about not breaking up with the ex-girlfriend still occurs. How great would it be if you were still with her? Who knows; but if you could, would you go back and never end the relationship because it could be better? Many would say yes, but they fail to realize how everything would change. It’s possible it may work out better for you than the mere “average” joy you experience with your new girl, but it could also end up worse. In case you haven’t noticed, the model represents the Pirates never trading Bautista and the new girl represents the current Pirate team.
Would you give up guaranteed success for the possibility it could be better even though there is an even greater possibility the relationship ends yet again (free agency) or something even worse occurs (Bautista gets hurt)? Or do you stay happy, denying yourself the chance at something better? Bautista could have put the Bucs in a similar situation to the one they are in now, but that is not a guarantee. Because of Bautista's breakout, the Pirates may have been forced to sign him to a huge deal that kept them from constructing the team the way it currently is. Potential problems in the clubhouse from Bautista or one of the different players that would have likely been on the team may have lead to guys like Morton and McCutchen being lame ducks instead of stars. A slightly better record the past few years could have lead to more John Russell and no Clint Hurdle. Good things that may have happened would be Bautista attracting other free agents, the Pirates get an increase in attendance and pay roll, and other moves that improve the club. Whether good or bad, keeping Bautista would have made the Pirates a different team.
The point of the post is to think. Keeping Bautista doesn’t automatically lead to a better team. If we were to add him to the current team it would, but that is sadly not one of the two choices. In a Bautista breaks out with the Pirates alternate universe, the team would have been vastly different because it would have had different needs and different strengths. They may have traded Bautista by now for prospects. Who knows; but would any of you fellow fans go back and prevent Neal from doing the trade if you could? I wouldn’t. I like the team the way it is and even though it may have worked out better for the Bucs, it could have been much worse and this season is giving my hope even more strength. This team, filled with guts and heart, is doing something a Jose Bautista led team may have never done, and that is compete.
PS. I edited it. Spent a little more time. Hope it is more clear. Sorry about previous one
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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So Lost
I am so confused on this so I will do my best to understand. I am confused on how keeping Bautista would have prevented any of the pitchers currently on the staff from getting signed? All are low paid and were acquired via other avenues that did not deal with Bautista. Where are the problems in the clubhouse coming from? If they are having a competitive season, why would their be any issues in the clubhouse? Does Jose not have heart? Not saying you are doing this, but you can’t blame Jose for the Blue Jays record…They have many other problems.
Daniel Pietrusinski
by Dan Pietrusinski on Jun 28, 2011 11:44 PM EDT reply actions
Sorry...
I can’t admit to being fully there during this time(medical reasons), but this wonderedd through my head for a bit. The post was meant for the question, but I added some extra junk to help people understand(ironic huh?) that I don’t hate Bautista, but I would rather be in the position we are right now than have Bautista and still be losing(which is what I think would be happening). Also, I would like to add that I wouldn’t blame Bautista even slightly for Toronto’s record. He is the reason they haven’t sunken into obscurity already.
On the pitchers not being signed, I put this idea in to make sure people realize that everything would not happen the same as it has if we were to keep him. The team surrounding him would not be the team that is winning games by playing old school “tough” baseball.
Problems in the clubhouse could come from Bautista directly and indirectly. Bautista has had character concerns on the Bucs in the past and I’m sure there are some slight ones in Toronto that are hushed up because A) He is hitting like a god B) It’s happening in Toronto and C) the Blue Jays are competing(mostly because of him). More direct reasons would be that Hurdle may have not been hired because Bautista kept the team just high enough to keep Russell on.
My main point on the additions was to say that the team wouldn’t be the same if Bautista were on it. The team isn’t winning because it has the best players(McCutchen is only one guy). It is winning because players are playing their asses off and are playing above what has been expected from them. Presley and D’arnaud are both recent additions to this and each have already displayed grit.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
I'm sorry, Joe, I don't get it either . . .
Because of Bautista’s breakout the Pirates may have been forced to sign him to a huge deal that kept them from getting the pitching together. Problems in the clubhouse could have lead to guys like Morton and McCutchen being lame ducks instead of stars
“Getting the pitching together” = signing Correia? What other money did we spend on pitching?
“Problems in the clubhouse” — do we have any evidence that Bautista was a character concern? Always seemed like a quiet, hardworking guy to me.
I don’t blame NH for trading Bautista — as you and others have pointed out, there were no signs that he would increase productivity. But to say that not having Bautista has made this current team better just seems like a very random and indefensible position.
Not to mention, this post was all over the place with ideas
Daniel Pietrusinski
by Dan Pietrusinski on Jun 28, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? How so?
I lead in with me describing how I don’t hate Bautista and why I began thinking about the question, then I came in with a metaphor to describe why I wouldn’t call NH wrong for dealing Bautista, then I introduced a question(badly I will admit. I got lost a little), after that I gave reasons for the two possible answers, and finally I tied it together with one last mention of the metaphor and my answer to the question. I may have messed up multiple times with grammer, but I would not call it “all over the place with ideas”.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
Getting the pitching together...
means signing Correia, keeping Maholm(price), and signing Dotel so we could get McDonald. Dotel and Correia may not have been expensive, but Dotel was more money than Neal has shown he will spend on a reliever and the money available may have been just under the amount it would have taken to get Correia. Bautista was said to have some concerns during his time with the Pirates(not major conerns). It could have simply been because he played for the Pirates.
I am not saying having Bautista would not make the Pirates a better team. If Bautista was added to the current roster then the offense would be significantly better. However, believing the team would be exactly the same as it is today, while only adding Bautista and not taking away what wouldn’t have happened as a result would be a mistake. We can not be sure of what would have gone differently if Bautista had been here, but if we assume he still breaks out, the team would have and wouldn’t have made certain moves that have made them competitive this season. Adding Bautista would be more simple, but what I am saying is what if we never did trade him and he broke out with us? The team would not be the same. So would you rather have a 30 year old Bautista and a supporting cast that is completely different than it currently is or the team as it stands today? That was my question. Sorry.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
Dating Joey Bats? Well, he does look much better without his stupid soul patch thing.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 29, 2011 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Rationalize all you want.
But, if Joey Bats were on this team, the Pirates would have a very decent chance at winning the division and going to the playoffs.
Without him, they probably won’t be doing that. He would add 10 wins to this club.
Oh well.
Sorry...
again for not being clear enough. :P I edited it and I hope I made it more clear. Not trying to rationalize the trade in that the he would bring negatives to the club. I am trying to say the team around him would not be the same. So the 10 wins he brings could be negated because the different circumstances led to 20 less wins from the rest of the club. This negative may have been a positive. Have you ever had a situation like that and looked back, glad that happened because it made you who you are today? You may have been better if it didn’t, but you may have ended up worse too. A personal example is when I was a kid I was obese. I lost the weight when I was a teenager because of diet and excercise. I suffered from being obese, but I am glad I was because its been a very long time and I in very good health. Being obese lead to me knowing how to take care of myself. If I was never obese my life could have been better then, but it may have caught up to me as I got older. So I am glad I was. Same as it is for this situation.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
See, I disagree with the initial premise.
If your decent-looking, disappointing girlfriend were still your girlfriend, she wouldn’t be a VS model, and she’d still be disappointing. The breakup changed the trajectory of both your lives. Sometimes a breakup helps one party find a new, beneficial direction. Maybe you land with somebody else who helps bring out your full potential.
(And BTW, I don’t think the “hot” models of today are all that hot. Agencies seem to have fallen for girls who never smile and have odd, kind of angular faces. I don’t get, like, Gisele, who I think somehow scores enormous points for being Brazilian(!) while IMHO her husband is prettier than she is. Same goes for Bar [She’s Israeli! She MUST be hot!]. The Christie Brinkleys and Cindy Crawfords and Elle Macphersons and the like that I drooled over would never have a chance today. They’re really pretty, but nowadays being really pretty almost seems like a handicap.)
She goes, like, 220, doesn't she?
This is roaming kinda far from baseball, though I’m far away from my own “roaming” days thanks to Mrs. Daddy, but really, so much of being attractive is about your attitude toward yourself. You can weigh half a ton like Ashley here, and if you dress well and believe yourself to be attractive and learn to do makeup right, you’ve won 90 percent of the battle.
When this kind of discussion comes up, always think of a girl I knew in high school. She was flat-chested and had a honker of a nose and a funny name and all these supposed disadvantages, but she was smart and she was “alive” in a way that’s hard to describe, just seemed very sure of herself, very confident, and I wasn’t, much, and I would have melted into a puddle on the spot if she had ever said to me, “Hey, you want to go out sometime?”
She’s a professor at Pitt now, IIRC, and has a very accomplished resume.
You come to a lot of forks in the road in your life and have no idea at the time how big they will turn out to be. What if I’d summoned the confidence to ask her out? Where might that have led? I don’t know, but I know there were many other events, events that at the time seemed like nothing but in retrospect meant that if I’d gone this direction instead of that, hundreds if not thousands of lives would be different. I might be rich as Croesus or I might be dead. At least one person alive today wouldn’t exist.
"You can weigh half a ton like Ashley here"???
dude, ive smacked around guys for less comments that this… grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
by white angus on Jun 29, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
more pics of the 220 lb behemoth that bucdaddy denies his lust for...
by white angus on Jun 29, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
She was a BIIIIG one ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNS42Na2mpc
As far as I know, our Trogs had no hand in this.
(And please, I was exaggerating Ashley’s weight to make a point that her size doesn’t matter when she has the other qualities I mentioned. She’s obviously and thunderously awesome.)
Cues up “Whole Lotta Rosie”
Said "Baby, you drive me crazy."
I laid it right on the line.
When this guy with a chip on his shoulder says,
“Jump back, buddy, she’s mine.”
Shot down in flames.
while you were having your tête-à-tête
I had my way with her (the pictures anyway).
good times.
by BlindSquirrel on Jun 29, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It's late and I only read the first 5 pages
but I’m still confused. Girls are about 80% looks up front and then looks matter about 15% after that basic starting point.
I think a better example is if I was dating this girl I sorta liked, but who liked me a lot, then I left her for this girl I thought was really hot but didn’t see much long-term potential with. Then, me and girl B split just as girl A inherited $14m from her estranged grandma. Then I would certainly question myself.
This is on topic as far as
Joey Bats but off topic as far as anything that’s actually been mentioned so far in this thread.
Wasn’t Joey Bats moved primarily because we now had Andy LaRoche as our 3B of the future? I mean, what if we had decided, “naw, we look Bautista at 3B and think he has potential, let’s pass and grab someone else for Bay.” Whoever that guy is, he busts, and Andy LaRoche is currently manning the hot corner in LA and putting up MVP numbers after two straight all-star apperances. Joey Bats stays mediorce because he never swings in front of a mirror (or whatever bullcrap reason you want to come up with).
Then the news leaks that we were offered Andy LaRoche. The media and fans go balistic.
Basically, hindsight is 20/20. Yes, it would be nice to have Bautista in LF right now (Tabata in RF when healthy), but I can’t change it and NH can’t change it, so I honestly don’t care. I can, with a straight face, tell you I’ve never “dreamed” or “wished” that we still had Bautista. It’s the past, and it is what it is, period.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jun 29, 2011 9:55 AM EDT reply actions
Hot dang, that’s a rational thought. Well done, Truth.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jun 29, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Supposed to be
“naw we like** Bautista…”
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jun 29, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
What you are not taking into account ...
… is that Bautista most likely would never have even developed into the hitter he has become had he stayed with our team.
Jose himself has gone on record saying that it has been the coaches in Toronto more than anything else, because he has needed someone to believe in him.
The Pirates – John Russell in particular – had pretty much given up on him. I think that makes all of this postulating, though interesting, nonetheless irrelevant.
Jose Bautista would never have become the player that he is with Toronto had he stayed with the Bucs.
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