James McDonald, Pirates' Awful Sunday Lineup Lose To Roy Halladay
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 9:38 PM EDT
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PrintNeil Walker homered off Roy Halladay in the first inning, but the Phillies scored in six different innings after that to beat the Bucs 7-3 on Sunday. James McDonald completely fell apart in the fourth and fifth innings and ended up allowing five runs. The Pirates then used every reliever in their bullpen except Joel Hanrahan to get through the rest of the game, and Jose Ascanio and Daniel McCutchen struggled.
I spent the day in the recording studio, so I'm just now catching up on what went on today, but I do have something I'd like to add: the Pirates' bench has to get better. It just has to. I understand there are some guys who are injured, but there's no way things should be this bad. Today's lineup featured Xavier Paul and Josh Harrison as the No. 1 and No. 2 hitters, along with Brandon Wood and Dusty Brown. Wood and Brown are not major-league-quality ballplayers, and Paul only debatably is. The game featured Pedro Ciriaco - he of the .448 Class AAA OPS - pinch-hitting, albeit in a very low-leverage situation, with no one on and two outs. But yeah, here's the play-by-play in that inning:
Pittsburgh - Bottom of 5th SCORE
Roy Halladay pitching for Philadelphia
B Wood struck out swinging.
D Brown struck out swinging.
P Ciriaco hit for C Resop.
P Ciriaco grounded out to shortstop.
0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors
Just look at those names. Let them sink in. There might have been an inning this year, somewhere in Major League Baseball, in which there was a bigger talent gap between three straight non-pitchers in a lineup and the opposing pitcher facing them. But I dare you all to find one.
I'm fine with the Pirates taking a chance on Harrison, and those are the kinds of players the Pirates should look to add to their bench when something goes pear-shaped at the big-league level - guys who aren't necessarily interesting enough to be concerned about whether they play every day, but who are too interesting or good to languish in Indianapolis while the likes of Brandon Wood and Dusty Brown get playing time.
Now, to be fair, I'm not sure how the Pirates should have avoided putting Brown on the roster. The Bucs went into the season with Brown as their fourth option at catcher, which is perfectly reasonable, and two of the three guys in front of him (Ryan Doumit and Jason Jaramillo) are now injured. That's not the Pirates' fault. But wow are Wood and Ciriaco bad, and yes, I know Wood hit a homer last night and had two hits today.
One of David Todd's big hobbyhorses right now is Alex Presley and why Presley isn't on the roster, and Todd is absolutely right - Presley stands at least some chance of hitting, and he's earned a spot. And there's space for him: he's already on the 40-man roster, and the Pirates are carrying two awful backup shortstops (plus Harrison, a third backup infielder). That would get rid of Ciriaco. Unfortunately, Presley was hit by a pitch yesterday and sat out today, but the Pirates easily could have called him up before that happened.
I'm not really sure what to do about Wood at this point, since Chase D'Arnaud is arguably prospect-y enough that you can make a case for preserving his option and letting him play every day in Indianapolis.
The point, though, is that if I'm in the Pirates' front office, I'm looking at lineups like the one the Bucs ran out today and thinking that something is very wrong there. Hopefully they're looking into ways to improve.
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Odds were that the Bucs weren’t going to win today, even after they went up 2-0. They already had the series won – might as well give Tabs, Cedeno, and Synder the day off (two days in all) and give the subs a challenge.
Not gonna argue on the Presley point, totally agree with you there, especially with Harrison, Cedeno, and Wood all capable of playing the non-1B infield spots. Bring Presley up. Just don’t think it calls for FO intervention and overboard examination.
It’s a long homestand. You took the series against the Phils. Gotta see the forest through the trees.
And, aside from exchanging Presley with Ciriaco, the bench is doing fine all things considered. X Paul is excelling in his role, Wood is capable on defense and might heat up a bit, Doumit is injured, thus D Brown, Pedro’s out, thus Harrison.
It’s one thing if the Bucs were 100% healthy and that was their bench. That’s not the situation.
That's my biggest reaction
Pearce, Pedro, and Doumit are all gone. That means that 60% of the bench consists of 3rd stringers. And you can’t play starters 162 games, so, when 3rd stringers are (temporarily) on the 25-man, they’ll see occasional starts.
That said: glad I didn’t go to the game today.
Exactly
And in Brown’s case, you’re talking 4th stringer. As for the other “bench” players – Harrison has performed well enough so far. Whether you believe it will last or not, Paul has performed extremely well, especially in his spot starting duty. And Wood hasn’t been particularly good but has still probably been not far off from an average backup shortstop (take a look at some of the backup shortstops around the league). I’m not sure you’ll find anyone arguing Ciriaco needs to stay on the roster, but in a game like today, does anyone really think the game would have turned out differently if they had someone else (like Presley) on the bench instead of Ciriaco to pinch hit in that spot?
I don’t think anybody will argue with you that Presley would have made the difference today. I think it’s just more of an effort issue. Yeah the Pirates won the first two games of the series. Yeah they were up against a perenial cy young pitcher. But why not go for the sweep? I understand resting a few guys, but I’d like to split it up a bit more and not have so many 3rd stringers playing at once.
by StripesForLife on Jun 6, 2011 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Charlie
I agree on Dusty Brown, he just lacks the confidence to play in the bigs. He’s been horrible with the game calling, receiving and he appears not to be able to hit. But why diss Brandon wood when he goes 2/4 a day after hitting a bomb and while playing a great game at short. I just don’t get the hatred there
Agreed. I didn't understand the Wood hatred, either.
It’s fine to not be a fan. But to call him a “not major-league-quality ball player” was quite harsh.
And it's funny....
to be okay with putting Josh Harrison on the roster, because he was mashing in the minors, when a few years ago, you’d be saying the same thing about Wood, and now he’s not worthy of a roster spot. I don’t quite understand it. Even though Wood’s been around the majors for a number of years, the next game he will play will only be his 200th in the majors (which is only a few more than Neil Walker).
Believe me, if Harrison is half as bad as Wood is after 200 big-league games, I’ll be begging for him to be released, too. Wood is demonstrably terrible, and he has been for years.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta fully disagree with you on Wood.
I can’t toss away a guy with that much potential after just 568 major league plate appearances. The guy is still only 2 years removed from a 31-homer, .970 OPS season in AAA.
I suppose Joel Hanrahan should’ve never been given a 2nd chance after being terrible for the Nationals for a number of years.
For those that forgot:
Hanrahan had been terrible for “several” years with a 5.30 ERA in 125 appearances at the time of the trade, including 9 blown saves in 23 save opportunities.
I guess he had no business being on a major league roster, either.
Let’s say we accept ERA as a strong measure of how good a reliever is, which I don’t. Even then, in terms of quality of their play, Brandon Wood makes pre-Pirates Joel Hanrahan look like a Hall-Of-Famer. Seriously. There are degrees of difference in how crappy a player can be.
Also, Hanrahan was getting killed by BABIP issues with the Nats, and he had posted great strikeout rates in two straight seasons before the Pirates acquired him. ERA can be a terrible way to evaluate relievers. Hanrahan was obviously a talented pitcher.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Not that I necessarily think much of Wood
But he’s the backup shortstop. Who are you going get for that role who offers more than Wood does?
by maguro on Jun 5, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I apologize, Charlie, maybe I should’ve listed all 7 million stats that applied to Joel Hanrahan, instead of choosing just one. I’m sure you can find a million stats that show Brandon Wood has had some bad luck, as well, but I know you’re not going to bother looking.
All I know is that many baseball people were saying that Hanrahan was terrible in his time with the Nats, and have been shocked by his resurgence.
Wood should be given that second chance, as well.
I apologize, Charlie, maybe I should’ve listed all 7 million stats that applied to Joel Hanrahan, instead of choosing just one. I’m sure you can find a million stats that show Brandon Wood has had some bad luck, as well, but I know you’re not going to bother looking.
Well, you could bother looking, couldn’t you? I mean, I look at a guy who has posted the strikeout and walk numbers Wood has throughout his career, not to mention never posting a batting average above .200 in parts of all five of his MLB seasons, and see a guy who doesn’t have any idea what he’s doing, and that doesn’t have anything to do with luck. But I’m open to being proven wrong.
As for Hanrahan, when the Pirates acquired him, I wrote about how he was a great acquisition because of all the things I’m talking about now, such as his strikeout rate and his very high BABIP. You can look this up. It’s not like I’m pulling all these random stats out of nowhere.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
But don't you see the problem there, Charlie.
Like everyone else, you will choose the stats that support your argument and ignore those don’t. This is why I think that pouring over stats is a huge waste of time. For every 20 stats that says Hanrahan was a good pick-up at the time, there were another 20 stats that said he was not so good.
But the difference is
There are no stats whatsoever in Wood’s major league career you can point to. He strikes out a third of the time and walks 3% of the time. He doesn’t hit a lot of line drives. He’s below average defensively. There’s no “there” there.
But he was a former top prospect...
and he hit a HR yesterday. Haven’t you heard, he’s the next Batista. Now I do think he is fine on the team in his current role but it makes me laugh to see the number of ardent Wood supporters on this board. And comparing him to Batistia and Hanrahan, no offense meant to anyone, but is a bit laughable.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
I’m not using them arbitrarily. ERA is just not a good stat to evaluate relievers. I might use it occasionally as a shorthand, but only when the other numbers support what the ERA is saying.
None of this stuff is at all inconsistent with the way I’ve written about players for years. Like I said, when Hanrahan was acquired, I said his strikeout rate and BABIP suggested he was much better than a cursory glance at his Washington stats suggested. That turned out to be true, and it wasn’t rocket science on my part, or something that any number of people couldn’t have figured out.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
He's choosing the stats that matter...
the fact that the Nationals focussed on ERA is the reason the Pirates have Hanrahan. Lesson #1 (and you know this) don’t support your argument about major league pitchers using ERA.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Your comp of Wood to Hanrahan are way off...
that’s why Charlie is refuting. I don’t think Wood should be cut either, just sayin.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Baseball people that probably still live on the ideas that ‘not hotdogging’ is a hall-of-fame requirement. With Hanrahan’s K rates and slider, if anyone was surprised by his break out I’m sure they were Littlefield-level executives.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Yes, a simple eye test
does the trick also. I’ve done an ocular pat down on B. Wood and he does not pass.
Flash back to 2008: I think it’s safe to say that Jose Bautista, after 5 seasons in the major leagues, almost 400 games, and around 1500 plate appearances, given his cumulative negative WAR value, is demonstrably terrible and not a major league player.
by Wizard Imp on Jun 5, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now HE was terrible for several years, haha!!!
But, really, Brandon Wood has a very good chance of never figuring it out, but still, the Pirates can’t afford NOT to give him some time there. The Great Clint Hurdle (the Hitting Coach, not the manager!) is supposed to be able to do wonders with kids like that!!
Batista was much better than Wood is now...
another bad comp. I think you are underestimating just how bad Wood has been. Think Jeff Clement bad.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
hey, hey, hey... no need to insult Clement like that
we should make a pact in here: no insulting players until they are no longer Pirates.
deal?
And Slick, if it had been for 5 full major league seasons, I'd be ready to give up on him.
But Wood’s only played in 200 games.
There have been people over the years that wanted to see Brandon Moss/Lastings Milledge/Steve Pearce/Delwyn Young/etc. get more playing time. None of those players had a minor league career like Wood. Not even close. He deserves a shot, that’s all I’m saying. I’m not ready to give up on him after one full year’s worth of AB’s. Sorry.
fair enough...
I agree with you on keeping Wood. I just felt the Hanrahan comp was way off. Also, most of Batista’s -WAR came from his fielding. He actually posted decent wOBA’s (around .330 mostly), especially for a bench player. Wood hasn’t sniffed a .300 wOBA yet.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
No disrespect, but this is a bizarre comparison. 2008 Jose Bautista and 2011 Brandon Wood are not on the same planet in terms of ability. They’re just not even close. Also, Bautista is a historically unique player, to say the least. You can’t keep players on your roster based on the slim possibility that they will one day do something historically unique.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right
Brandon Wood has a MUCH better minor league track record than Bautista could ever dream of…
And no it is not a bizarre comparrison. Bautista was certifiably terrible for years and years. And Bautista was never considered nearly as good a prospect or to have near the ability that Wood was.
Bautista at least had a couple of years (06 and 07) where he looked like a fairly credible major league hitter, with OPSes around .750 both years. In roughly a year’s worth of PAs, Wood has a career OPS of .469! Here are some guys with a higher career OPS:
Carlos Zambrano
Yovani Gallardo
Jeff Weaver
Livan Hernandez
Darren Oliver
CC Sabathia
The point isn’t that Bautista was worse than Wood or even as bad as Wood – that’s irrelevant. Charlie stated that Wood should not be on a major league roster because he has been awful for years and the very same thing could have been said of Bautista.
Charlie could have said “Wood should not be on a major league roster because he’s been historically awful for years,” and the same thing could not have been said of Bautista.
Seriously. Wood’s track record is really really bad. He’s OPSed I think .559 with us, and that’s a big improvement.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jun 5, 2011 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Right. I’ve said several times in this thread that there are degrees of terrible. The point is not only that Wood has been terrible, it’s exactly how terrible he is.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, you're taking the comparison's too literally.
If one small change in Bautista turns him from marginal baseball player into All-Star, is it so outside the realm of possibility that something could click for Brandon Wood that could turn him from an awful player, into a solid major leaguer.
I mean, is 200 games the limit now?? Is Wood really blocking anybody?? I think he’s certainly worth giving a shot to. That’s what I’m having a hard time seeing why people are so against it.
We're not asking for Wood to be an All-Star.
Just better than the list of back-up infielders that I listed below. If that turns out to be the case, then the Pirates are that much further ahead.
So why aren't you arguing for Ciriaco?
or Argenis Diaz. or Bobby Crosby. All 3 of them are also only 1 miracle from being competent major leaguers.
Bautista showed he wasn’t a starter, not that he wasn’t a ML player. Wood has shown he is a minor leaguer.
does anyone actually think that Wood is going to be a future full time player here???
When Alvarez comes back, 3B is his fulltime. Harrison will probably head back to Indy.
Even if Wood stays, hes a backup unless they miraculously turn him into something he hasnt been: good.
I think you guys are taking the comparison too literally.
Though I don’t want to put words in Wizard’s mouth, I believe what’s he’s saying is this:
Jose Bautista: showed marginal talent in the minors – showed marginal talent for many years in the majors – not is a home-run hitting all-star.
Brandon Wood: showed tremendous talent in the minors – showed marginal talent so far in the majors – ?
And I’d throw in Joel Hanrahan: very marginal talent in the minors – marginal talent early in his major league career – now people are talking about trying to get a big return for him.
I think that if a mildly successful Bautista can turn into an All-Star, and a mildly successful Hanrahan can turn into a very good closer, is it too far of a stretch to believe that a extremely talented player like Wood, who’s gotten off to an atrocious start as a major leaguer, can’t turn himself into a solid major league player??
That’s all I’m saying. With Wood’s talent, he should be given a few more chances. This guy was one of THE best prospects in the minor leagues for a number of years. I’m not saying he should bump off Alvarez or anything, but I’d certainly give the guy a chance.
In fact, assuming Cedeno hits the road next year, I’d be happy to see Wood be given a chance to get the SS job next year, if he can prove he can handle the job (like he did today).
The guy’s certainly got much more potential upside than Josh Harrison and Alex Presley.
youre probably right
since we are repeatedly told that the Pirates arent contenders anyway, whats the harm? right?
No
The problem is those other guys had talent. Wood doesn’t. He can’t judge the strike zone, read an offspeed pitch, he’s got a poor, drop your hands to your hips swing, no power, crappy facial hair, he runs funny, he’s not particularly fluid in the field and just average arm strength.
He just isn’t particularly talented, forget what he did in A ball 10 years ago. That was surely a product of location and inferior pitching. In the majors his lazy fly balls go for outs instead of carrying over a 340 foot fence.
i agree with the swing and his running style. kinda like an ostrich
but Wood HAS put up numbers at every level in the minor leagues, especially the K’s
What did Tony Gwynn say?
If he wanted to hit 40HRs he could, but he’d hit .250 with it.
Wood is like that, but his talent level is such that it’s more like .200 to hit 15 HR (maybe).
I wish it Wood happen.......
If he can ever learn to go opposite field he could be scary good. The next ball he hits to right field may very well be his first.
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
by michaelbro8 on Jun 6, 2011 8:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Much, much, much, much, much better.
And Joel Hanrahan’s minor league stats were atrociousl!!! The only reason he was even in the big leagues, was because the Nats were so bad at the time
Who's better?
Are you saying that Batista with the Pirates was worse than Wood with the Angels? Wood has posted a negative WAR every year in the league. He’s had 568 plate appearances. While he may still blossom, like Wood could, it’s ridiculous to say that Wood as a major leaguer has shown more potential than Batista did with the Pirates.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Ok...
this thread has gotten a little long so it’s been hard to follow. I can’t dispute that Wood was a much better prospect but I’d also add his K rates were extremely alarming and a huge indicator that the success, or lack thereof, he’s had was highly predictable.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Don't know...
but I wouldn’t bet on it. I really hope so and Hurdle seems to see some positive signs from all the work Wood has put in with Richie. That’s reason enough for me to keep him on the team for the rest of the season. I don’t debate you that he has talent but I also think he has a gigantic hole in his swing like Jeff Clement. The difference is the Pirates aren’t counting on Wood to be a starter and his defense has been acceptable in a back up role. I just think you were going over the top with some of your comps because there is no denying that Wood has been a horrible player to date…that’s all.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
The problem is that some people want to live and die with their stats....
and the first rule of understanding them is that they are not always a great indicator or future performance. Things happen, people change. There are too many variables. And we are dealing with human beings, not machines.
I understand that Bautista is a once-in-a-generation story. But my belief is that if Bautista was only one tick away (small change in his hand position) from changing from a marginal major leaguer into an All-Star, then certainly even the worst player in the majors (even if it is Wood) has as good a chance as any of finding that one small thing that turns them into a solid hitter.
Perhaps some think it’s unfair to give high-end prospects more chances than low-end ones, but that’s the way it goes.
Pedro Alvarez is certainly going to be given more shots to succeed (even if he has more seasons like this one) than a 40th round draft pick.
But there certainly is room on the Pirates roster for a Brandon Wood as a back-up infielder.
Strikeout numbers
It’s funny that everybody talks about Wood’s strikeout numbers, but that only gets talked about when you’re not hitting.
Jason Bay (now don’t get excited, I’m not comparing Brandon Wood to Jason Bay, but for this one stat. Put away the torches) has very similar percentage of strikeouts to Wood. But, everybody puts up with Bay’s strikeouts because of he gets a lot of hits and homeruns instead of outs. So the problem for Wood isn’t the strikeouts, it’s the lack of power & average that he’s done, so far, in the majors.
And the lack of walks.
Jason Bay career BB/K: 0.54
Brandon Wood career BB/K: 0.11
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 6, 2011 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Though, when you've got Erick Aybar
hitting behind you (as Wood did with the Angels when he was often batting 9th, with Aybar in the leadoff spot), I can’t imagine you’re going to be getting enough bad pitches to draw a lot of walks.
It’s not like Bay exactly had studs behind him either. And lots of players have had no protection in a lineup but still managed to walk more than 3.3% of the time. Wood just has awful plate discipline.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 6, 2011 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Um, cheese, it would actually be the other way around.
You get more walks/bad pitches when you DON’T have protection in the lineup. Hence, Bay would get worse pitches by not being protected in the lineup. Therefore, his walks SHOULD be higher.
Aybar is a very good hitter, therefore, my point is that given the choice to pitch to Wood or put him on to face Aybar with an extra runner aboard, teams are going to throw down the middle with Wood. I imagine he got very few balls thrown his way, because guys would not pitch around him. So getting walks would be very hard to him to do.
So, his walk totals would be very low BECAUSE he’s got a good hitter behind him, not in spite of it.
Though 19 walks (6 of which have come in a Bucs uniform)
in 568 PA’s is really bad.
As we saw with JMac today, sometimes walks just happen.
So, obviously, Wood’s walk numbers are very bad. Some of that is bad discipline. But, a lot of that has to do with the players hitting behind him.
Then my mistake, it is 1:30 in the morning after all. Regardless, if protection made as much of a difference as you suggest, every bottom of the order hitter would have a fantastic walk rate, while a middle or top of the order hitter would have a terrible one. It factors in very slightly, but does not make that huge of a difference. Not to mention the fact that if Wood wasn’t walking because teams were throwing down the middle to him, don’t you think he should have hit some of those?
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 6, 2011 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Again, that's backwards.
Bottom of the order guys have bad walk rates, because hitters are going to pitch to them.
Middle of the order guys have higher walk rates, because pitchers try to avoid them.
Not to mention the fact that if Wood wasn’t walking because teams were throwing down the middle to him, don’t you think he should have hit some of those?
That’s precisely my point. He should have been. But he was striking out instead. But, while some of the blame for his low walk numbers should be put on him for bad plate discipline, the main part of that is that he wasn’t getting a lot of bad pitches.
I’m not disputing that Wood has done terribly, thus far, in the majors, but to list his low walk totals as a reason that he won’t be successful is misleading, I think. I imagine in the minors, he was probably swinging for the fences and pretty free swinging. Most power guys are like that.
But that doesn’t mean he can’t/won’t be more selective in the future.
So then if he’s been getting all these great pitches to hit, why would he strike out so much? If he really wasn’t getting any good pitches to hit, he would at least make contact with the ball.
Either he gets good pitches to hit, and can’t make contact to save his life, or protection in a lineup is completely overrated, and he swings at balls out of the zone. So either his plate discipline is god awful, or his contact is god awful. Either way doesn’t bode well.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 6, 2011 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I meant if he really wasn’t getting bad pitches to take, not if he really wasn’t getting good pitches to hit.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 6, 2011 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Nobody's disputing that Wood's been terrible in the majors, so far.
Let me explain this another way:
In the minors: Wood hit for average and power, struck out a ton, walked very little.
In the majors: Wood has not hit for average or power, struck out a ton, walked very little.
Some are trying to say that his high K’s and low walks are the explanation for his lack of success in the majors. My point is that he has always had high K’s and low strikeouts, so I don’t see that as the problem. He’s actually drastically cut down on his K rate in the majors.
So, Wood’s issues aren’t really about his K’s or lack of walks, it’s that balls that he makes contact with that were leaving the yard or becoming hits in the minors, are becoming outs in the majors.
Perhaps he’s making poor contact or whatever is the problem, but it really isn’t about the K’s and BB’s.
I think the K/BB rate thing
is more to show that he can’t judge the strike zone. That’s why he swings at awful sliders low and away or fastballs at his eyes.
And if you don’t have a basic level of competency in that area, major league pitchers will eat you alive, as shown.
What were J Bay's K numbers in the minors?
and like cheeseisblue said, Bay still draws a lot of walks.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Again, I'm not comparing the two....
Just saying that Bay’s strikeouts get tolerated (and rarely criticized) because of his home runs and hits.
So, I’m saying that if Wood was hitting .280 with 30+ HRs a year, nobody would be talking about his high strikeout total. It just gets accepted.
His K's are tolerated...
because he puts up accetable wOBA’s. So yeah, if Wood were hitting .280 and 30 HR’s he likely would have a an acceptable OBP and the K’s would be tolerated. However, he’s not given any indication that he can make enough contact to hit .280 let alone 30 HR’s.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
No
Once again, if you want to take out stats, fine, that leaves scouting, and Wood has 0 above average tools, he also shows no “flashes” of getting better.
It’s like Milledge last year. People wanted to give him a shot and that his power would miraculously come around without actually watching his approach and swing where they would see Lastings had no power potential and would always be what he is.
If you want to support a SS who has the potential to be quite good then look no further than our current starter. Cedeno has 5 times the potential of Wood if he’d ever learn focus and consistency.
no, cedeno is who he is, he will not "put it all together"
he’ll have prolonged slumps, have a final OBP around 300 or less, and he will play at least decent defense
yes he was a little bit below replacement level...
while Wood has been worse and has posted horrific K numbers in AAA which also indicate he isn’t likely to ever hit in the majors without a major overhaul in his approach. To his credit and the coaches they are working on that so I’m willing to let him ride the season given his raw power.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Wood also played that year in AAA in a desert
that tends to inflate a hitters numbers
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." Wes Westrum
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
I was going to say it myself, but I thought I'd leave it for someone else.
As I mentioned, I tire of people talking about the ballpark factors/etc, because his teammates played in the same conditions. A guy who leads his team, has talent.
So, Wood had 31 HRs that year. The next highest HRs on his team was 22. Does that mean Wood stinks?? No. Does it mean he’ll hit 31 HRs in the big leagues? Nobody knows. But to act like his stats don’t mean anything because he “played in the desert” is just plain silly. If he was just an ordinary player, shouldn’t everybody on his team have 30+ HRs? Yet they didn’t.
It doesn't mean they don't mean anything...
and I’d hope no one would say or believe that. It just means you need to analyze them within the correct context.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Completely disagree with you on Wood – he is not anything close to “demonstrably terrible.” That is as bad an evaluation as I’ve ever heard.
Really?
How else would you describe a top prospect putting up -9 WAR in 200 games? Pretty good?
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
But why diss Brandon wood when he goes 2/4 a day after hitting a bomb and while playing a great game at short. I just don’t get the hatred there
Because several terrible years in a row mean a lot more than two games.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
You're saying that 55 games, 18 games and 81 games is enough to call him "terrible" for several years in a row?? Really??
Yikes, Alex Presley already has 19 games in the majors, pretty soon he’ll be in your “terrible for several years in a row” list!!!
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/4/8/2097934/making-sense-of-brandon-wood
Most awful players aren’t nearly as lucky as Wood has been to get even that much playing time, since major-league clubs are very, very comfortable dismissing a guy when he’s been as bad as Wood as been. As they should be.
I’m not saying, by the way, that he doesn’t have a fragment of a chance of turning it around. I’m saying that fragment is so vanishingly small it’s not worth worrying about.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really the same
Hanrahan was actually half-decent in 2008. Walked too many guys, but he struck out 10 batters per 9 IP and had a WHIP of 1.364, which is meh, but not terrible. He was lousy for Washington in 2009, but he had already shown a demonstrable skill in that he could strike out major league batters. Wood hasn’t really shown anything.
Really not a good comparison. See above.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Give it up, Wizard.
Charlie’s got his mind made up. You can show him 1000 examples, and he’ll just shoot them down.
You know, I gave you reasons why those weren’t comparisons. You could engage with those, or you can continue with this silliness of assuming you know what I’m thinking.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Just realize Charlie hasn't liked Brandon Wood from day 1
gotta give him credit for sticking to his guns. But i agree with you and the Wizard for the most part. Brandon Wood is a capable backup right now with some potential left. And i agree he hasn’t had long enough to prove his worth in the bigs.
I was all for taking a look-see
but what does he bring to the table? I’m curious to know. The injuries are the only thing that saved his job for another couple weeks.
Bautista wasn't good, but he wasn't AWFUL
Aside from ‘04-’05 (where he logged just 100 PAs across FOUR teams)…his lowest wOBA was .310 (100 points above Wood’s career number. He showed pop at the Major League level (16, 15, 15, 13) before really breaking out…and though he wasn’t extraordinarily valuable (after 04-5) he was only a negative WAR once (and that was entirely due to his atrocious defense. His K rates and BB rates were light years ahead of Wood (and Bautista was a not a particularly discerning player at the plate).
The short of it: Even when Bautista was pretty bad, he was actually about league average, or close to it. Wood has never been able to even shout at league average.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
Sorry, but...
Bautista was nowhere near “lkeague average” through 2008. He was well below replacement level. Below replaement level = awful in my mind.
He was close to league average...especially with the bat
Besides, if "below replacement level=awful…then Wood is awful.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
To be clear...
He had an aggregate WAR of -0.8 with a “best” season of 1.0 – still below league average. And it doesn’t matter whether his negative value came from defense or offense – negative value is negative value.
I get that. I do. My purpose is not to sing pre-Barry Bonds Bautista
Just to say that no matter how bad Bautista, Wood has been SO much worse.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
I realize that my grammar was horribly mangled just there. I'm sorry.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
So...
In about 3 full seasons worth of at bats, Bautista was a little less terrible than Wood has been in one – he was still terrible. The point is, whether you want to admit it or not, Wood clearly has talent and thus still has some upside even if there is less than a 1% chance it ever gets realized. Find a better option for backup shortstop for the Pirates right now, and he’s gone. In the meantime, there IS no other option. And Wood has performed better with the Pirates than with the Angels – and not all that far out of line with typical backup shortstops. GIve him some more time, and there is still that remote chance he starts realizing some of that potential. It almost certainly isn’t going to happen but when there are no other options, I don’t understand why anyone would complain.
And to go into a rant about how terrible Brandon Wood is on a day he got 2 hits (including one of Roy Halladay), one night after he hit a home run, is just ridiculous. And complaining about Xavier Paul in the lineup when he’s hitting .320, and Josh Harrison (who also got a hit), only in the lineup because Pedro Alvarez is hurt. Funny how almost half the hits in the game came from these players who made this an “awful” Sunday lineup- a game in which the Pirates collected an above average number of hits for the game. As someone else pointed out, the “lineup” or the hitting was not why they lsot this game today.
The only thing in the OP was:
Wood and Brown are not major-league-quality ballplayers
Which is true. It’s gotten ugly in the comments. I’m just trying to point out that Bautista was observably a better hitter than Wood. I’m OK with sticking with Wood since there really isn’t anyone else at this point. But, it’s true that he’s not a Major League quality player.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
And I didn’t jump into the thread until Charlie said this:
“Believe me, if Harrison is half as bad as Wood is after 200 big-league games, I’ll be begging for him to be released, too. Wood is demonstrably terrible, and he has been for years.”
And I stand behind the point that something similar could have been said about Bautista at some point (After 2007 Bautista had over 1100 Plate Appearances in MLB, and a -2.0 WAR value (Not quite as bad as Wood but only marginally better). Two full seasons worth of at bats and there was no indication Bautista was a legitimate Major league quality player.
Sorry,
I meant after 2006. and it was about 600 PAs – which compares to a little under 500 PAs and -2.7 WAR for Wood coming into this season. Again, Bautista hard performed only marginally better in a slightly larger amount of playing time.
And the reason I took exception was
lumping Brandon Wood in with Dusty Brown.
After suffering through an endless supply of career utility guys and end of their career guys as the back-up infielder on this team, I’m thrilled to have a guy on the roster that COULD (and I’m only suggesting COULD) have the potential to still become a starter in this league.
I just thought it was an unfair bash towards Brandon Wood, who’s performed solidly in his small chance to play with the Pirates, so far.
I typically like a lot of what I read from Charlie, but this post felt like a bad rant after somebody had a bad day.
Agree completely
Not defending Wood as a good player just that his performance with the Pirates so far has been at least as good as could possiblly have been reasonably expected from any other option – and he still has that tiny sliver of a possiblity (extremely remote as it may be) that he could turn it around and become a solid major league player. If a better option comes along, then release him but in the meantime there are no better options – and the Pirates could legitimately do a lot worse.
Oh and to disparage Wood in a rant about a game in which he got 2 hits and he personally deserved zero blame for the loss just seemed like horrible timing.
He had a .326 wOBA...
so there was some indication that he could be a succesful major leaguer.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
One more thing...
If you’re gonna call someone out for not being a major league quality player, it makes sense to do that after a game or games in which he seemed to demonstrate that – not, as was the case with Wood, after back-to-back games in which he definitely performed like a major league quality player (even if it was an aberration).
Doesn't really matter...
One game doesn’t erase his history unless you think something has clicked for him. He’s been working a lot with Ritchie and Hurdle so it’s possible, and I’m hoping it is, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Correct.
Just because he had a good game, it doesn’t mean he should be out there in the first place.
B Wood is stinky. Comparing him to Joey Bats is meaningless. If Wood goes somewhere else and becomes Joey Bats, you can say, “I told you so,” but if he doesn’t, I get to say the same. I like my chances.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 6, 2011 3:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Jose Bautista was never in the discussion for “worst MLB hitter of our time.” Wood is. His career OPS+ is 27. Check the article — the worst hitter ever had an OPS+ of 21; Wood’s recent work has raised his to 27. (Average is 100.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jun 5, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Not all degrees of “bad” are the same. I was talking about this with Vlad this weekend, and he compared it to the difference between getting kicked in the shin and kicked in the groin.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Presley's MLB OPS+ is 64, btw.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jun 5, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
that was just a response to
(scroll scroll scroll) the claim that “pretty soon [Presley [wi]ll be in your ‘terrible for several years in a row’ list,” where the idea was that Wood’s sample size has been too small to judge. The point was that though Presley hasn’t performed well in his tiny sample size, he’d have to have performed a lot worse to justify Brandon Wood comparisons.
As that article Charlie and I linked above said, even in his small sample size, Wood has been one of the worst MLB hitters ever. When someone’s that epically terrible, it’s probably not the sample size issue.
All this said, I’m not sure dumping him is the best idea, because I don’t see the alternative — I’d d’Arnaud to get more seasoning.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jun 6, 2011 6:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Was at the game today, to be honest, I’m kind of intrigued by Brandon Wood. He hasn’t looked horrible to my eyes, and the bat has been making pretty good contact, even on many of his outs. If he gets some consistency with the bat, I like having him on the roster as the back-up 3B/SS/1B. So, I think you’re being a bit harsh on Wood.
Ciriaco is one of those defensive replacement/pinch runner-type guys that many championship teams have on their roster. Obviously, the Pirates aren’t in a need to that these days, but he wouldn’t look so bad as the 25th guy when the team is doing well.
Josh Harrison doesn’t excite me a whole lot. I worry that he’ll become the next Delwyn Young (since reports on his defense have not been good) – though he looked decent at 3rd today.
But, I do agree with you about Dusty Brown. I’ve been trying to cheer for the guy, because you like to see guys get their shot, but boy, after seeing all of the wild pitches and passed balls, it REALLY makes you appreciate Chris Snyder’s abilities.
Investing in Wood will pay off
Actually already has → look at Cedeno`s concentration over the past few weeks.
Hurdle will teach Brandon how to hit.
Hurdle`s beef from today revolves around LH relief pitching.
LH relief pitching is actually scarce these days. Too bad we didn´t sign Fuentes.. Better yet, why did we trade Javier Lopez again? He has a 2.something era again this year…We could always buy low on Mike Gonzalez ;)
Why can`t we just call up Wilson and put him in the pen?
I was thinking the same thing too. He was/is a highly touted hitting coach, but we really haven’t seen much of that have we?
by StripesForLife on Jun 6, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know...
A lot of guys still have respectable OBP’s despite their struggles due to increase BB%‘s so I think Hurdle/Ritchie have done a good job getting guys to be more selective. Hopefully that will translate into success at some point this season. Even Cedeno is drawing walks and that is no small accomplishment. Tabata is struggling with Pedro so that’s the main reason the offense is struggling. Guys like Overbay and Diaz are so advanced in their careers that I’m not sure a coach plays a large role in their performance. McCutchen, Snyder, Doumit and Walker have been solid. Cedeno has been better (but still below average). Alvarez is the wild card here. Hopefully he can get it going when he comes back.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Dusty Brown has shown why he's not a MLB player.
But Wood, as you acknowledge, had one of the best days at the plate today.
No matter which team it is, their 4th string catcher is going to be pretty marginal, so the answer to that problem is simply to hope Snyder can hold down the fort until JJ and Doumit are ready again. That’s just bad luck.
Truthfully, when you are in a game against Halladay and you score 3 runs, your offense wasn’t the problem on that day. If James McDonald has pitched 7 innings like he pitched the first 3 innings, then the Pirats had a chance. Otherwise…
That's true...all told, we're pretty lucky to have Snyder and Doumit
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
Agreed. My major contention with this entire post is Charlie is completely ignoring the injury situation and pretending that this is the front of the line, ideal, Pirates bench. Complaining about Dusty Brown? He’s only there because of Doumit. Complaining about Pedro C – that’s alright, but I assume he’s there for speed and IF depth, and no could argue you don’t need two X Paul’s in another A Presley, although I would love to Presley in the bigs. Complaining about Harrison or Wood, they are in the elevated roles because of Alvarez injury.
To me, the entire post was a bit foolish. If the point was to upgrade our AAA options in case of injuries, that’s fine, but that wasn’t discussed in the slightest if I’m reading it correctly.
Now, to be fair, I’m not sure how the Pirates should have avoided putting Brown on the roster. The Bucs went into the season with Brown as their fourth option at catcher, which is perfectly reasonable, and two of the three guys in front of him (Ryan Doumit and Jason Jaramillo) are now injured. That’s not the Pirates’ fault.
That’s right in the post. I do think that Brown is really bad, but I understand the circumstances that led him to the 25-man roster, and they’re really not the front office’s fault. I didn’t complain about Harrison.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I couldn’t agree more.
by StripesForLife on Jun 6, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you're overreacting to the bench issue
Most MLB bench players aren’t very good, that’s why they’re bench players. The Phillies started Wilson Valdez today and Dane Sardinha yesterday and they’re both terrible. I mean, Brian Bixler is still on a major league roster. The big leagues are just full of bad bench players.
Regarding Presley, I don’t have a problem with bringing him up and giving him a shot, but I don’t really expect him to be any better than X Paul. If Jones is still struggling at the plate at the ASB, I expect Presley to get the call and take Jones’ place. Jones is clearly falling out of favor with CH.
I don’t expect the Pirates’ bench players are great. I just expect them to have some semblance of competence, or some semblance of upside that realistically might one day be realized. Wood and Ciriaco have neither. Neither does Brown, although like I said above, it’s not really the FO’s fault that he’s there.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh
Again, we’re talking about the 4th catcher, the 3rd thirdbaseman and the backup shortstop. How many organizations have someone that’s any good in those slots? As far as I’m concerned, X Paul is a perfectly cromulent 4th outfielder, so I can’t understand being upset that he’s in the lineup a few days.
In the context of this organization, which has so many problems, the bench just doesn’t seem to be a particularly pressing issue.
I agree with you about XP
and expect Hurdle to embiggen his role.
I'd like to see what Pressley brings to the table...
I’ve had about enough of Overbay and Jones. I actually think that Harrision has looked pretty good in his short stint. I expected him to be overmatched at the plate and in the field but he looks like he belongs (in that he is very confident). On Wood: Hurdle has stated that he and Ritchie have worked a lot with Wood on his hitting and he’s liked what he’s seeing lately. I’m willing to let Wood ride out the rest of the season to see if Hurdle/Ritchie can work some magic. As you said, it’s not like D’Arnaud is kicking the door to Pittsburgh down. Ciriaco = not a major leaguer, nuff said. Lastly, I think I’ve also seen enough of Ascanio. He may have a big arm but his clock has run out; injuries can do that. I think Watson should be up here to give the pen some more flexibility.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
I was intrigued by Ciriaco when the Bucs traded for him, but he really hasn’t shown a whole lot. However, as someone mentioned above, he would not be a bad bench guy on a winning team. A bench guy in the sense of pinch running and defensive substition, obviously not looking for regular AB’s from him.
by StripesForLife on Jun 6, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Teams like the Yankees...
usually have solid guys on the bench so they are more equipped to carry a guy like that but you usually don’t see players like that until rosters expand. Ciriaco literally cannot hit. There aren’t many teams, Yankees included, that can carry a player like that on their roster for an entire season.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Tell that to the Pirates and Braves of the 80's & 90's.
Carried Rafael Belliard on their rosters for 17 seasons!!
I know, I know, now you're going to tell me about Belliard's lifetime OPS+ being 46, which is higher than Wood's.
Actually, Belliard played 87 games in 1996 with an OPS+ of 2. Even Brandon Wood had a 6 in 81 games in 2010!!
I was thinking of Raffy when I wrote that...
however I think that type of player has pretty much gone by the wayside as the bullpen has become more specialized.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Be honest though, there is quite a difference between the Yankees and Pirates. The Yankees can afford to pay players money to sit the bench. The Pirates, and a majority of ML, simply cannot do that.
by StripesForLife on Jun 6, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Me and my friends were at the game today...
and when they read off the line-up, I was cringing. Dusty Fuckin’ Brown.
Biggest problem for me at the game were MacDonald’s INSANE amount of walks in a couple of innings in a row, and there not being any activity in the bullpen.
Not really
Having a starting pitcher who suddenly couldn’t find the plate cost us. You can’t expect a long reliever to come in and pitch five scoreless innings when your short relievers can’t pitch five scoreless. A long reliever can save your bullpen – but with an off day today, there’s no harm running half a dozen short guys out there for about an inning each.
I'd say it held Hurdle back in pulling him
If we have a long guy that can go 3 innings, he might be warming up a couple hitters earlier and then we don’t have bases loaded and no outs with a RP coming in cold. I’m positive Hurdle didn’t want to go to the pen in the 4th or 5th inning, knowing that he didn’t have a guy capable of going 2.
I think that's exactly right
I mean, who knows for sure what Hurdle was thinking, but there’s no way he was eager to pull McDonald knowing that it meant using 5 RPs and being completely screwed in event of extra innings.
Gotta say
I agree. I don’t see what Ciriaco is bringing to the party right now. They don’t really need him or use him so why not bring up a player who is potentially more useful.
But, hey, can’t feel bad about today because we still took 2 of 3 from the Phils.
isnt Presley injured right now?
wasnt he taken out of a game this weekend? he didnt play today either.
Ah, that’s right. Hit by a pitch. Thanks. Updated to reflect that.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
if Presley were to be called up, shouldnt it be at the expense of an outfielder?
why the hell would we need 6 outfielders anyway??? i understand that Ciriaco is not going to be a fixture on the 25 man roster, but taking him off doesnt actually help Presley at all. doing something with Jones/diaz/paul would.
for the record, replacing Overbay with Jones @ 1B would be a mistake.
I have to admit
As much as I enjoy the general sense of optimism on this board, I never imagined “Brandon Wood is terrible” would be something anyone would disagree with.
i just dont understand the hostility towards our own players, guys
Snell, i understand. Hinske, ditto. But the hatred ive seen for Cedeno, and Overbay… Maholm has had some of this, Ohlendorf, Duke, Paul… “Xavier Paul… seen enough!!!”
i just dont get the venom.
Hah!
Weren’t you one of the guys that wanted Maholm and Duke run out of town! Kettle, meet pot!
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
no, i just said i hated watching Duke pitch
there was no venom spewed on this end, mi amigo…
and yes, im glad hes gone. good riddance.
>:-P
Maholm too?
I remember you using some pretty negative terms to describe Maholm earlier this year.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
yes, i dont like watching maholm pitch
but ive never said “garbage”, or “trash” when describing the Pirates players. for better or worse, they are Buccos.
you think i defend Overbay on here because we’re BFF’s or something? LOL
hmmm....
you think i defend Overbay on here because we’re BFF’s or something? LOL
No, don’t be silly. Quite frankly I don’t know why you defend him because he hasn’t been a good player in a while. Maybe it’s because you have a misplaced loyalty to Huntington or you’re a little sensitive to criticism of the Bucs. I can’t really answer why for you. But regardless, I don’t see any reason why someone should get upside when a fan calls a terrible player terrible. You’ve made the “I guess the whole team needs to be All-stars…” comment more the once and it’s kind of condescending in that you think that the critics really don’t know that. Anyway, I was more or less just pointing out the irony of the situation because I remember you being a harsh critic of Maholm not too long ago. I distinctly recall you and I having a couple of length conversations and I remember you being pretty unflattering in you criticisms. You may not have used the word “terrible” but you conveyed the same message. Where exactly do you draw the line?
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
yes, i was being a critic about Maholm, but i never said he was garbage or junk or called his mother a $#@!
i just dont like watching him pitch.
now Duke is just garbage!!! complete trash!!! i mean, he hits a homer and it barely gets over the wall… what a girl.
but its okay, cuz hes not a Pirate now.
:-)
Well
I’m not saying that Wood isn’t bad, but the dude is the backup shortstop. Of all the problems that this team has, backup shortstop is pretty far down the list as far as I’m concerned. Would we be so much better of if we had Wison Valdez or Josh Wilson instead of Wood?
How many wins does Brandon Wood have as a pitcher this year?
That’s right, ZERO. Case closed. :)
cmon Maguro, all of our players, especially the bench guys, need to be 3.0 WAR guys
or 2.2, or 1.678999999, or whatever the $#@! it needs to be!!!!
No they don' thave to be 3.0 WAR...
but it would be nice to have your starting 1B be better than a replacement player. Same for your bench guys. I too think Wood is ok in the backup role because there is some potential there and currently there aren’t any better options. But your use of hyperbole to poke fun at people who think Overbay is a drain on the team is borderline jackiegleasonesque. You just forgot the smartass “yeah right,” or “lol” at the end.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
how in the world can your bench players be better than replacement, when they ARE replacement guys?
and of course it would be nice to have better production across the board, especially from 1B, and RF, and 3B, etc…
and is Hyperbole the word of the month lately?
not sarcasm
Bench guys are replacement players on bad teams...
this is the whole point of Charlie’s post. There is nothing wrong with expecting your backups to perform. I don’t agree with everything in Charlie’s post but the fact that you should get production out of your bench is a solid point. You are also correct that not everyone on your team is going to perform at an All-Star level which is why you shouldn’t sign players to your team that will have a high probablity of not performing. I have no problem with keeping high upside low probablity player like Wood on the roster, in fact I think it’s a smart move, but having to many low probablity guys is a problem. The main point that Charlie overlooked is that the only reason Ciriaco, Wood, Brown and Harrison are on the roster at the same time is due to injury. The mistake I think Huntington has made was expecting Jones to perform in a platoon situation and expecting Overbay’s skills not to decline further.
and is Hyperbole the word of the month lately?
Depends how much it was used to support one’s arguments. With all the draft arguments going on my guess is it was used quite a bit.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
the argument is fine.
but labeling players, OUR players, garbage or trash or awful just doesnt sit right with me.
OK...
so you are more against the over-the-top criticism or the typical game thread overreaction? If so, than yeah, I couldn’t agree more. In fact, it’s the main reason I’m more of a lurker on the game threads now as opposed to active poster. I can’t stand how many different players different fans hate. Bet rest assured if you are a Pittsburgh fan you have to hate someon (goes for the Steelers and Pens too).
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Yeah, but in a season's worth of PAs, Wood is a -3
I mean….he brings some defensive versatility and he’s a decent defender, but in terms of hitting, you could choose pretty much any AAA 3B and they’d probably be more valuable.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
I can't believe I'm writing so much about Brandon Wood...
but, let’s not also forget that while Wood got sporadic playing time, he was never given a shot to get comfortable. Until he’s given a shot to play regularly, nobody really knows what he can/can’t do. It’s a different story when you’re the Angels and competing for the playoffs every year and the Pirates, in terms of patience with a guy. The Angels weren’t going to have the patience to let him figure it out.
The Pirates should at least see what they’ve got.
Yeah. I can’t believe this has turned out to be so controversial.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 5, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
It shouldn't be...
apparently some are too enamored with prospect status to ignore the lessons that Milledge, Laroche and Clement and group have provided us (though Wood is different because he’s only a backup) and they have also become enamored with Paul and thus will overlook the fact that he hasn’t really been an above average player (even in the minors) and will give in to the SSS. That said, I think Paul is an accetable 4th or 5th OF and I think Wood should stay with the team in a backup role. Also, I think you probably were a little too harsh on the catcher situation given that Brown was 4th on the depth chart.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Hey Slick (and Charlie too), let me ask you
if you had one roster spot to choose for back-up infielder, who would you choose?:
Brandon Wood
Argenis Diaz
Pedro Ciriaco
Bobby Crosby
Akinori Iwamura
Andy LaRoche
Ramon Vazquez
Brian Bixler
Luis Rivas
Luis Cruz
Chris Gomez
who are you taking??
Personally, I’d take Wood everytime.
I think the reason this post is controversial, is that Charlie is tearing apart a Sunday lineup on an injured team that just played 2 extraordinary games against the World Champs before getting it handed to them today.
lol i will almost gurantee they will not say Wood just to spite you in this argument my friend.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
C Shint, haha, I know!!! I was just curious to see who anyone would say?
I was going to throw Dirty Doug in there, but I know the love for him (amongst some) rages on!!! Haha!!
Sorry, didn't finish my reason...
and complaining about players on a bench that have been playing pretty well. It’s seems like a bad post to be ripping the bench, when you’ve got so many regulars who have been underperforming. I think that’s why there’s been the reaction.
Wow
That’s an impressive list of really bad ballplayers.
Dads, teach your kids to play short if you want them to have a shot at the majors.
Also make sure their bat can play at SS, too.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jun 6, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd take Wood too...
read above, I wrote in one of my initial posts that I think keeping Wood on the roster for the rest of the season is a good idea. But I could also see how a lot of people would think that he was a waste of roster space. What I found funny was that so many posters were coming to Woods defense like Charlie had suggested he’d cut Pedro Alvarez. If he were cut tomorrow it wouldn’t hurt this team at all. However, the Pirates would miss out on an opportunity to hit on a diamond in the rough. I agree with you that Charlie overlooked the fact that the only reason the roster looks like it does now is because of several injuries. It was that long ago I remember thinking that I was much happier with the bench this year as oppposed to years past.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
I'll bite....I mean, now I'd probably take Wood because the rest are out of baseball or nearly so.
Which, given the below, is kind of reason that Wood is not a Major-leaguer. Real quick: I’m not horribly opposed to having Wood on the team. He IS a backup, and he DOES have good power if he can ever figure it out. I don’t think he’ll do that, but I’m fine with him being a backup for now. Still…..
CAREER OPS
Iwamura: 92
Vazquez: 83
Gomez: 82
Crosby: 80
Rivas: 78
LaRoche: 72
Diaz: 59
Cruz: 44
Wood: 27
Bixler: 24
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
I mean it'd be tough
Except for Aki, all these guys are career utility guy’s. That was their ceiling. If you’re purely looking for a utility guy/backup, I’d probably take Vazquez and Gomez because you know they’d provide good defense and hit for a bit of average and zero power.
Wood, I guess, is different because of the allure of “what if he figures it out?” Then he’s much more than a utility guy.
But, his K-Rates and BB-Rates combined with his inability to hit for power at the Major League level make me think he can’t turn it around. The K-Rates and BB-rates were atrocious even in the minors, and it just appears that he can’t hit Major-quality breaking stuff….I dunno….like I said, I’m willing to give him the season just because of where the Pirates are at this year.
By the way, Vazquez is on St. Louis’ AAA team. His career line: .254/.328/.350
Wood’s: .171/.205/.264.
Maybe we could pry Vazquez away. ; )
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
thats basically saying
i have 10 turds to choose from, so i’ll just take the one that is shaped like Abraham Lincoln. Brandon Wood isn’t any good. That’s the argument Charlie is putting forth. Yeah he had a good night Saturday. Lots of bad players have one good night. It’s unfortunate that we have injuries to key guys and are forced to use guys like him, Ciriaco, and Brown. Brown had one of the worst efforts i’ve ever seen from a catcher today. He has looked nothing like a major league caliber player.
Actually, that's not like saying that at all.
Charlie stated that Brandon Wood should not be on a major league roster. I listed 10 other infielders that the Pirates have had in the last 3 years who were also on a major league roster. Therefore, if these guys were worthy of a roster space, so is Wood (probably more so).
I think I would take LaRoche from that list. He probably has the best bat, with pretty good defense, and as much potential as Wood or anyone else. I mean he most likely won’t ever reach it, just like Wood, but at least he can be serviceable in the meantime.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 6, 2011 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
me too
At least, assuming he can back up SS enough that you don’t need to carry another backup SS, LaRoche has at least flashed success in the majors. I think there’s more reason to think he could somehow find his bat again than that Wood could start hitting.
Not that I think the Pirates should try to pick up Andy again, because the improvement is pretty marginal, marginal enough that the negative publicity would probably outweigh it.
impliedi: The thing is, most of those players shouldn’t have been on a major league roster either. You certainly heard us complaining about how bad the bench was when they were on it.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jun 6, 2011 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I dunno
The post just seemed a little overemotional and very well though out. Has the Pirates bench even been below average this year, compared to other teams? I’m not sure it has. Seems to me the bench has been OK for the most part.
Yeah...
I get that. Calling out the bench without acknowledging that it would have had Pearce, Doumit and no Ciriaco (or Harrison) if not for Pedro, Pearce and Doumit being hurt was an overreaction. I just found that defense of Brandon Wood, even though I think he should be on the bench too, were nearly an equal overreaction.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
hey folks lets relax,
its one game where clint got some of the regulars an extra day off…remember its the “bench” for a reason, yeah these guys should be adequate but for some, not seeing regular at bats along with that fact that some are call ups (ie Harrison, Ciriaco, Brown) you cant complain to much. not many benches have allstar players, unless your Infante for the Braves that is lol.
alvarez and doumit are two regulars who are hurt so that hurts the bench too dont forget.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
Now, on the other side of things, I do agree that there’s not a ton that can be done at this point about the backup infielders, at least until Pedro gets healthy. Like Charlie said, the Bucs are better off letting D’Arnaud play every day in Indy, and there’s not a ton else out there. Marte? Pretty much Wood 2.0.
And one other thing . . .
Let’s put on our optimist hats for a second . . . Back in March, how many of us thought we’d be cursing the heavens because Doumit went on the DL?
Wood probably is close to the usual backup IF. We can’t even get offense from the starting 3B/SS.
Now Xavier Paul should probably be cut soon due to his terrible K and BB rates, no power, huge BABIP. So I think Paul might be more of an issue overall, even though he plays defense.
by Adam Reynolds on Jun 5, 2011 11:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
?
Charlie, did Brandon Wood steal your lunch money a long time ago? jk
ok, all kidding aside I agree with Charlie in his evaluation of Wood. He is demonstrably terrible and has been for years. Can he turn it around, probably not. Are there better options for the Pirates now at backup infielder, debatable. Do I cheer for the guy when he steps in the box, absolutely.
#31 All Day...
Are there better options for the Pirates now at backup infielder, debatable.
The answer is no right now, unfortunately.
yup
I feel Chase could/would perform better than Brandon now, but as Charlie points out, it makes more sense to preserve his option, not mess with his development, and let him play everyday in AAA. Oh well, at least we got pitching.
#31 All Day...
well, just an opinion that will probably never be tested
but, from what I’ve seen and read, I like his makeup. He’s got speed, decent plate discipline (or at the least doesn’t look lost at the plate), and a nice arm. Some inconsistencies with both his swing and glove, but I do feel he has stepped it up defensively this year thus far. Plus, it’s not like he would have to light the world on fire to match or better Wood’s ML totals.
#31 All Day...
Be careful, Smoky,
or somebody will start throwing out stats to tell you exactly what d’Arnaud’s future holds. Or they’ll say that his 35 HBPs in the minors means he crowds the plate too much, therefore he’ll never be able to hit in Miller Park…on Thursday nights….when it’s between 72 degrees and 74.5….when you take into consideration ballpark factors.
But, seriously, I think d’Arnaud would/should be left to see how he does in AAA this year, as I imagine he’ll be in the running (if all goes well) for the starting SS position next year. It may be funny if his biggest competition is Wood.
C'mon be fair....no one's being that specific...
…they’re just saying that, based on stats (and the eye) which are measures of performance, that Brandon wood would suck at Miller Park on Thursday night and pretty much every other night at every other stadium.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
You focus on the hitters!
How about the pitcher? A lot of young guys will strike out or look foolish when facing Doc Holliday! You are harsh on Wood, but he plays multiple infield positions and has some pop. You may want to argue Presley should play over Jones or Diaz. He is an outfielder, so I do not see the argument he should be on the club over Wood. If we bring up another outfielder, we need to have room in the outfield. We have Paul and Jones or Diaz coming off the bench. The need for another outfielder is low.
what pop?
career .269 slugging % in 530 ABs. Yeah his minor league power numbers are great but it’s been discussed how that was inflated by ballpark and league factors
I always love how the "ballpark and league factors" always gets thrown into the discussion.
No matter what happens, when you point out a guy’s minor league numbers, there’s a bunch of people who throw out the “old for the league/hitter’s league/ballpark size” excuses. Unfortunately, there’s 1000’s of other minor leaguers who’s numbers are worse. So even if you’re playing in a favorable ballpark, if you’ve got the best numbers out of a group of guys who also play in those same conditions/ballparks doesn’t they say something.
There’s a heck of a lot of guys who DIDN’T hit 31 home runs in AAA in 2008, so I guess that says that those other guys must’ve REALLY been bad.
Of course, minor league numbers don’t forecast major league numbers (in fact, prior major league numbers don’t forecast upcoming major league numbers), but dominating (even when you SHOULD be dominating) is still worth something.
I always love how the “ballpark and league factors” always gets thrown into the discussion.
They get thrown in because they matter. The more information you have regarding a player the better equipped you are to make an informed decision.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
My point being that they only matter if someone is trying to use that particular stat to predict stats in a future time.
My problem is this: someone will say, Brandon Wood hit 31 HRs in 2008. Then the quick response is almost always “he was hitting in a desert.”
But, the problem is that he had 25% more HRs than anybody else on his team that year. Leading your team is still leading your team. Maybe 31 HRs in the desert only means 20 HRs in a “normal” stadium. Who cares? He still hit significantly better than anybody else on this team. It has nothing to do with making a direct correlation between the numbers, it’s that saying if his numbers were significantly better than everybody else on this team either a. his team was terrible or b. he’s a good player.
But, some people want to discount every good number completely with these “ballpark factors/age/league/etc.” But, if you compare them to guys on the same team and their numbers still stand out, that should still make them meaningful.
What an utterly ridiculous thread
OK, boys, you got your asses handed to you out there today, just sleep it off and come back tomorrow with a clean slate.
And cut out this Brandon Wood shit, all of you. Sheesh.
by JRoth95 on Jun 6, 2011 12:26 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I didn't read everything because there are like 200 comments...
but based off of what I am seeing, it seems to me that everyone hates Brandon Wood and wants him off the roster(a majority of you anyway). I completely agree, but my reasons are likely different. I want him off the roster if we are going to continue playing him sporadically. The guy is not ever going to be the power threat everyone once expected if he is getting so few ABs. I am one of his biggest advocaters, but if we play him so little, he is almost useless. If we were to give him the SS position over Ronny, who despite his recent success is still terrible, than I am confident he would produce. His power is obvious in almost every swing. I would take him over any SS in our system and it wouldn’t be close, however I would not take him over any utility infilder in our system. We have plenty of guys who fit that role much better.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
let wood stay
he is still interesting enough to keep around, pedro needs to go tho, he is useless and worthless. keep wood around atleast until perce and alvarez are healthy
pedro needs to go tho, he is useless and worthless
see, this is the problem i have with fans. really harsh and unjustified, IMO.
I said the same thing in the game thread
I understand giving starters rest, but giving 3 a rest the same day the day before an off day is pretty useless.
2 days off > 1 day off
esp for players that dont get many days off period. id rather have them all take one game off during the week than see 1 or 2 sit each game next weekend. Its like ok now thats out of the way, we can play our starters for a nice long stretch again
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
234 comments about nothing...
classic bitchfest…
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.
"234 comments about nothing...classic bitchfest."
Is it enought to prove the 25 percent retarded thing again?
パトリック
I came here wanting to find out why there were so many comments after a game I saw in Section 116 directly behind home plate...
and shit it’s the same stuff about some nonentities who will have nothing to do with the Bucs in short order.
The only fucking reason Wood is in the majors with the Bucs is because he can play backup SS and there are so few guys who can do this. And I bet he will go the way of Luis Cruz, Argenis Diaz and blah, blah, blah…..And if Pedro Ciriaco could do anything other than run fast, Wood might not even be around right now. (Considering the fact that we got Snyder and Ciriaco for disposable garbage consisting of Carrasco, Church and Crosby, I’d say Ciriaco has been a useful throw-in in the deal.)
Dusty Brown sucks…and, as with the SS position, there are so few quality catchers around, we shouldn’t expect much from the 4th string backstop in the organization. With JJ banged up, what do people want? An unadvisable early recall of Tony Sanchez? (I still kinda wish we had Eric Kratz, though.)
Come to think of it, I’m still on a high from having the 22oz. Cowboy Ribeye at Ruth’s Chris Steak House on Saturday, so I’m not going to ruin the good times with more comments here.
パトリック
Sunday's line-up
I totally agree. Sunday’s line up was a joke. I realize Snyder would be following a night game with a day game, but they have today off and they don’t even have to travel since they are in a home stand. Paul has been playing well but Snyder and Cedeno should have been in the line up. I mean they’re facing Halladay! A chance to sweep. It almost seems that they were comfortable with just taking two out of three. Ascino has to go, Presley should be up, especially in a couple of weeks when we’re on the road in inter-league games where he could DH, or Jones/Diaz could DH and lets see what Presley can do in the field.
I'm Very Upbeat At Present...
Presley could very well turn out to be yet another great piece in the puzzle. Nice power/speed combo. For the last several years, he has constantly exceeded expectations where ever he played, and like most, I favor over-achievers to those that habitually under-perform.
My first love is the Cubs, but the team the Bucs are putting together is going to be very, very good in a couple of years.
by 07_08_World Champs on Jun 6, 2011 3:48 PM EDT reply actions
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