How Should The Pirates Upgrade At The Corners?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 11, 2011 11:55 AM EDT
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PrintMLB Trade Rumors profiles Carlos Pena. I wouldn't be opposed to the Pirates acquiring Pena, who I think is probably underrated at this point due to his very low batting average. He does everything else well - he hits for good power, walks a lot, and fields decently. He could also probably be had for very little prospect value, due to his salary.
The problem is that he's left-handed. If the Pirates are going to upgrade at first or in right, a righty would be better. Jose Tabata really should play every day, or most days, when he returns (you can't very well turn him into just the right-handed side of a platoon), and if the Pirates were to acquire Pens, that would leave one position for Garrett Jones and Alex Presley.
As good as Presley has been so far, I'm not yet sure he's not a part-time player in the end, and I don't think the Pirates should necessarily wait for his hot streak to end before making a move that would reduce his playing time. They might get left out in the cold if that happens. If the Pirates acquired Pena, I'd send out Tabata, Jones and Pena against most righties, and use Presley as a fourth outfielder who plays a lot. I think that's an upgrade, and it would give the Pirates some good pinch-hitting options.
That said, if the Pirates could just acquire a righty instead, that would be easier. The guy on the Pirates' bench who's supposed to hit lefties, Matt Diaz, hasn't really done it, which makes him a bit of a square peg. Ryan Ludwick has hit lefties very well this season (.276/.337/.447 while playing half his games in PETCO) and could probably also be had without giving up many prospects. It wouldn't be a sexy acquisition, but I think it would be an effective one. Josh Willingham might be another possibility, except he's a pretty brutal defender and really only plays left field, which is a bad combination in PNC.
If the Pirates acquired Ludwick, they could start Jones at first and Presley in the outfield against righties, and Steve Pearce at first (when he returns) and Ludwick against lefties.
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The Pirates and Diamondbacks strike me as two teams that would benefit from renting the Pena. The D’Backs would might prefer to turn to Brandon Allen or Paul Goldschmidt at first, leaving the Pirates as the lone suitor if they wish to improve upon Lyle Overbay. The Bucs make for an interesting match, as typically it’s been the Cubs swiping useful players from them. I also like the fit because the Pirates could avoid giving up any useful young players for Pena, instead offering to relieve the Cubs of most of the slugger’s remaining $6.6MM.
Sale Rent the Pena!
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
"if the Pirates were to acquire Pens"
Where is your LeBurkle now?
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 11, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Carlos Herpena
Thank you Ned Colletti.
by ryebr3ad on Jul 11, 2011 4:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Diaz
Do people think his skills have deteriorated, or is it just random variation in a small sample? He doesn’t look any different than he always did, but I didn’t watch him a whole lot when he was with the Braves. I’d bet on him hitting a lot better against LHP going forward, but I’m curious what others see.
Could be either one.
I saw him play as a minor leaguer in Durham back in the day, and he was never particularly graceful or fluid even then.
I looked 5th outfielder up in the dictionary
and it had matt diaz picture definition
57-105 come on "sale the team"
Consider
the source.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 11, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes. I need to find me one of these ‘dictionaries’
Thank you Ned Colletti.
by ryebr3ad on Jul 11, 2011 4:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah.
When I look up evil in my copy, there’s a picture of Bob Nutting next to it.
When I look up crazy in my copy, there’s a picture of Frank Coonelly next to it.
When I look up awesome, there’s a picture of McCutchen next to it. But…it’s Daniel.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 11, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jul 11, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve heard Ludwick’s name floated before, and that’s the kind of move I’d like to see. Cheap and probably effective without hurting long term plans. Do you see the Bucs actually getting Pena and Ludwick?
As for Presley, I’m not sure what the right way to handle him actually is, but I’m guessing Hurdle is going to ride that horse until it dies underneath him, Rooster Cogburn-style.
If they were really serious about an upgrade at first base, I’m surprised no one has mentioned Lars Anderson. He’s blocked in Boston, you know.
It's a good day to be a Pirate
Please, let’s not turn this into a Lars Anderson thread.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 11, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Laaaaaaars wouldn't even be an upgrade
A 1B prospect with a .750 OPS in AAA isn’t really “blocked”, he just isn’t ready to play in the big leagues.
Sorry, primetime.
Say what you will about primetime
but the dude has been right about alot of things so far, including the Pirates going 85-77 this year.
Pass on Ludwick
Francoeur’s a better option for this type of low OBP/decent OPS right handed RF.
Ludwick’s sub. 400 slugging percentage isn’t any higher away from Petco this year than it is at home. Ludwick might not even be a huge upgrade over Pearce (who starts his rehab assignment this week.)
As much as I hate Francouer and everything he stands for
He’s a great righty side of a platoon, if the price is right. He’s never not been a good defender and he’s never not crushed lefties.
by OctaShields on Jul 11, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade Overbay for Lars bleeping Anderson.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 11, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Sexy vs. Effective
I think the Pirates, if they are going to make moves, need to be going after the effective players rather than those that would make big headlines. They need to focus on shoring up some of the holes they have right now rather than reshaping the entire roster (including minor leagues), which is what would be required to bring in one of the sexy choices like Reyes, Pence or Beltran.
If they were able to grab Ludwick and Pena, I would be perfectly OK with that, since neither should cost anything of particular value, and with the upcoming Rule 5 nightmare that NH and company will be facing, it will be a way for them to winnow out some of the marginal “prospects”.
Mark Reynolds?
Of all the available 1B he makes the most sense. Right handed. Play him at first pressley in rf and then give jones 2ish starts a week between the of and 1b
Reynolds is a 3B
He’s played only 1 game at 1B this year.
Not in the near future.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 11, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Truth
Honestly I dont want any moves…but Reynolds seemed the best to me
i just threw up... a lot
no disrespect, but anyone that thinks that Reynolds can help this team is completely blinded by his HR numbers. and his defense is atrocious.
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
even though Reynolds did hit one out at PNC
hes rob deer, plain and simple.
nothing to see here
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Reynolds + our non-K pitchers would be a bad combination.
by psudynasty1017 on Jul 11, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You said it
it’s not only hitting for power, HR’s or flashy numbers if the player’s defense is sickening …
We need a glove at 1st base to begin.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 11, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d stand pat unless the Pirates can acquire a difference maker or a quality player who will remain with the team for the next few years. Pena ain’t that guy.
I’d rather fail with Alvarez, Tabata and Presley as full-time starters and Pearce and Jones as a firstbase platoon than I would seeing the team win by messing around with players like Pena.
s.zielinski
I think this sentiment only should apply if a trade requires the Pirates to depart with an actual good prospect.
If someone like Pena or Ludwick can be had without giving someone up with a decent shot of being a meaningful big league player, I say there is 0 harm in acquiring them.
Now, if a good prospect is to be traded, someone like Marte or Allie as a PTBNL, then they better get a young, valuable player who is a significant upgrade with years of control left.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
I was a stand pat guy but
If we are still 1-3 games out of 1st place at the end of July, I think we need to add to the club just because you have to reward this club with its effort. You need to give them a quality bat to offset the rest of the offensive potential throughout the lineup. Plus, you have to see just how far you can take this.
Tabata will return to the lineup when healthy(in LF) and we could see Tabata, Cutch, and Presley, lots of speed but not much arm in the outfield.
Alvarez is going to have to play his way back onto the club in AAA, just plain and simple. We shouldn’t even be looking at him as a solution for the rest of the season.
There needs to be a guy in the 4 hole that strikes fear in opposing pitchers. Pena would do that… Plus he could be had for a lower tier minor leaguer and it would fulfill the yinzer nations desire to add payroll… win win
When players are having career years or are playing above themselves you have to fill holes and see how far this goes. Standing pat would probably speak more volume to the current team indicating that the FO doesn’t believe they can sustain the success. All the players in the clubhouse (friendships aside) know the weaknesses of the team.
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Is the statement “I’m not yet sure he’s not a part-time player in the end” based on intuition or metrics?
A little bit of everything. His age, his size, the fact that he came out of nowhere and wasn’t even a prospect before 2010.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 11, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
No love for Presley
I realize that when a guy has an OPS over 1.000 it is easier to say that he can’t keep it up rather than he will keep it up. But he’s now working on a couple of years straight of great baseball. And even if you don’t think he’s going to be a more productive player than Tabata in the long haul — in the course of a pennant race — you absolutely cannot take a hot bat out of the lineup.
I agree with the Rooster Cogburn sentiment.
Presely has a nice stroke and has produced in the minors and majors
He ought to play until he decisively fails.
s.zielinski
ARam???
I don’t think Pedro Alvarez will impact the Pirates this year. I don’t believe we need a Pena or Reynolds. They strike out a lot and batting averages are low. I like Aramis the most. As for Presley as a 4th outfielder… Maybe one day, but as long as he is batting at 300 or above he is going to play everyday. Why can’t Jones, Pearce, Wood get playing time at first?
by Joey Mooney on Jul 11, 2011 12:30 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
aram has repeatedly said he wont waive his ntc
and trading him makes his option best i believe
by titanlord91 on Jul 11, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed it does. If he’s traded then since he exercised his 2011 option, the 2012 team option vests automatically. That would leave the team in a VERY tough spot if Ramirez gets us over .500 or even (knock on wood) to the playoffs, in having to decide between him and Pedro for next year.
Maybe, but it would still be a less-than-ideal situation given that the team was hoping for Pedro to play at 3rd as long as possible before he (as is likely inevitable) has to move to 1st. To make him switch over for what would probably be a 1 1/2-year thing(I doubt we would be able to sign ARam to the contract he’d want/get elsewhere) is not something the team would want to get themselves into.
"Why can’t Jones, Pearce, Wood get playing time at first?"
Steve Pearce… someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the last time I checked, Pearce had not even begun running drills.
So Steve Pearce fits into the equation between first and RF…in August or September?
I can’t wait!
パトリック
Pearce played for Bradenton yesterday
He went 0-2, though
by KentuckyPirate on Jul 11, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
If he's started his rehab, that's good. Indy can use him soon, I bet.
Pearce and Alvarez would form a pretty good duo in the middle of the order there.
パトリック
Pearce also played 3B yesterday
just a FYI
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
white angus
Thanks for catching me up on things. I guess I should’ve spent more time at the computer the past 10 days, instead of enjoying Myrtle Beach.
パトリック
Huh, I was at Myrtle Beach last week too.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 11, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I stayed there from the 1st til yesterday-close to N. Myrtle. I'm not much of a fan of the downtown area.
Two of my nephews were there the last few days because they were playing a tournament over the weekend with their travel baseball team. I saw two game on Sat. It’s an U-13 team and I thought the level of play was pretty good. The only complaint I have is of the pitchers trying to throw junk, instead of learning to command their fastball.
パトリック
That’s really weird. I was very close to North Myrtle too.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 11, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
SALE THE PEDRO
to the other side of the infield
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
Remember that long road once more, then kiss it...kiss it goodbye
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Jul 11, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Pena
Is a very good 1st Basemen, walks a ton, and is a solid clubhouse presence. I though we’ve discussed on here that BA is not a reliable metric for determining success.
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
then we should leave overbay at 1B, with that logic
Pena is NOT the kind of hitter this team needs. and im not saying keep Overbay either.
Pena is not a hitter, he is a slugger. nothing more.
If pena is pitched around, who is going to take up the slack?
a walk, a homer or a lot of K’s… how is this helping our team?
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
McCutchen in the 3 hole
would see more pitches to hit for one, plus Pena is more of a threat to hit a HR than Overbay ever will be. Look I see your point, matter-of-fact I really like Overbay and wish he could become more consistent at the plate, but my wishes just are reality.
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
once again, im not saying keep Overbay
everyone assumes i’m this overbay fanatic, but i am not. i just dont think this team should settle, and dammit Pena would be settling.
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
What's the alternative?
Pena may not be a world beater, but he’s better than Overbay. Pena gets on base more, hits for more power and fields better, so I’m not sure why you are suggesting they have equal value.
You say you’re not saying keep Overbay, but you haven’t given an alternative.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
He wants something he can't have
which is a young, established 1B with years of control. What he hasn’t come to terms with is teams don’t give those guys away.
What about a guy who isn't seen by their
current club to be the 1B of the future, who isn’t happy DH’ing, and who’s org has a top 1B prospect in the minors who is tearing it up.
Same org is also very thin with CF prospects?
Have there been any reports about his availability? No
Other than Angus’ speculation. If they want to shop him, why would they do it now instead of in the offseason? They have no incentive to move him whatsoever unless we massively overpay. How in anyone’s mind is that a good idea, even if there was a 1% chance it was realistic (which it isn’t)?
overbay
needs to continue his pseudo surge over the past week or so and vastly imrpove his lackadaisical picks at 1st. its not just the bat at this point that concerns me, although we have seen that come around a bit…his play at first has been atrocious at best
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 11, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
really?
he’s made routine pick plays look anything but on a consistent basis. the range of a statue as someone once put.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 11, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
just overbay hate, thats all it is
once hes gone, yall will find someone new to despise. cedeno always comes in handy for a lynching
angus
if you look at my posting history you will see that i am er was one of the overbay defenders. but after watch derp after derp moment in the field i can not anymore. fyi just because someone does not agree with you on something doesn’t mean that’s an excuse to exude an arrogance so high it off the charts…
just sayin
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 11, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not blind hate though
Overbay has not been good by any measure. I’d rather “settle” for Pena than have Overbay and his -0.7 WAR at first
Anything helps your team
when it gives it a better chance at winning than it currently has. Pena is a better 1B than Overbay right now. Overbay’s WAR is at -0.7 right now, and in any event, Pena might actually scare a pitcher or two.
by OctaShields on Jul 11, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
ANGUS has Overbay envy
no to Ludwick too, he’s a mediocre OF’er at best. Presley’s been a huge sparkplug along with being your best minor league hitter for the past 2 seasons, why take him out of the line up at all? Need their head examined if they do so.
DUMB and DUMBER thoughts, thanks ANGUS
by jackiegleason on Jul 13, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Insightful.
Blerg.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 13, 2011 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't want Carlos Pena-not at all.
Ryan Ludwick makes sense, though, at the right price.
I’m looking forward to seeing Tabata back in the lineup, and also getting more games from Presley so we can gauge by the end of the year what type of player he might be for us.
Alvarez will be lucky if he’s back at PNC Park before Sep. 1.
As far as Steve Pearce is concerned, I wouldn’t pin my hopes on a guy who still seems far from returning, and has only played 43 games for the Bucs the last 1 1/2 years. The guy can’t stay healthy.
If they want to dump Overbay, split the time at 1B between Jones and a potential acquisition like Ludwick. Let Presley play a lot in RF-unless he proves he’s not up to the challenge-and I suspect Diaz-for better or worse-will continue to see some action there.
パトリック
once again, dont see how dumping overbay and inserting Jones is going to help the team
if we’re going to make a trade, make a real one, none of the pena/ludwick rental crap.
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Making a real trade
will cost us a ton in prospects. I wouldn’t want to do that right now. Rental players are better for our situation right now.
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
no its not
pena and ludwick are not going to help this team. ludwick, IMO, is the better of the two, but i just dont see them making a difference.
if youre making a trade, go after someone with some substance, some youth, and some real hitting ability
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That won't happen because
Nutting himself said that our prospects (ones that teams would want in a trade) are off-limits.
Teams that have young players aren’t going to trade them because they need those young players to build around. If we were to give up good prospects to get a player, he would have to be a McCutchen type player. Would you trade McCutchen? I know I wouldn’t.
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
The current climate
FWIW, it’s been said by many experts that the teams who are in the best position this trade deadline are guys who are willing to take on contract obligations, not teams willing to give up prospects. If we’re willing to pay most of Pena or Ludwick’s contract, we won’t have to give up much. No one else is bidding.
by OctaShields on Jul 11, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly,
plus they have no negative effect on the club moving forward.
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Butler is EXACTLY the kind of bat this team needs
not the glove, but the bat is special. he wont lead the league in HRs, but hes a 300 hitter with gap power and walks more than he K’s
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
How about Mike Stanton?
I just don’t see teams giving up young power hitters unless your name is the Pittsburgh Pirates (see Aramis Ramirez)
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
mike stanton? marlins arent trading him
no way
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
If were going to trade prospects for a guy
Thats the guy I would want…
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
i understand, but hes not going anywhere
guys like Butler, however, will be leaving KC soon enough. the Royals are not a good team, and most of their prospects this season have underperfomed. Butler is expendable to them because he is not as good as Hosmer. Stanton is not expendable.
by the way, i honestly would take Butler over Stanton on this pirate squad. we need a guy who can put the bat on the ball, not strike out 30+% of the time
They aren't going to give him up cheap
He’s young, and that awful league has a DH slot. There’s no urgency for them to get rid of him, even with Hosmer.
It just depends on the cost
For me, Marte, Taillon, Heredia, Sanchez, Morris, and Cain are all off limits. I’m sure KC would ask for one of those.
The first 4 yes, totally off limits if you ask me
Morris or Cain though for a guy who can help the team right now like Butler….particularly with guys like Taillon, Heredia and Allie coming in the next few years and no real legit 1B prospects in the system? I don’t know if you can turn that down
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
The Royals may be an exception
They’re loaded with special young bats: Hosmer, Moustakas, Clint Robinson in AAA…if a team can afford to give up a player like Butler to fill needs elswhere, it’s Kansas City
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
I just don't understand.
How would Carlos Pena not help this team? He’s been substantially better than Overbay this year.
I don’t understand what this means? How will he not fit? He’s going to be cheap and he’s better than what we’re running out there right now…that sounds perfect.
All he does is get on base and hit home runs and play good D!
Can’t you see how that isn’t a fit for our team!
over under on the number of times this Reynolds debate takes place before the deadline: 300
Im staying out of it this time.
Me neither
2011 WAR – Overbay: -0.7 Pena: 1.3
by ATribeCalledGreg on Jul 11, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
If the price (in prospects) isn't much (and that's speculation on my part)
what would stop the Pirates from acquiring, for example, Pena and Ludwick and releasing Overbay and Diaz?
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
I mean, the Pirates themselves will tell you they have room to add payroll. . .
and the MLB salary money is separate and distinct from the draft signing money (or so we are told).
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
If the Pirates were willing to take on both Ludwick and Pena,
and make Overbay and Diaz walk the plank, it would make sense if the aforementioned duo could come in and help the Bucs stay in contention through Sep., and then you never know what could happen.
I don’t have a “thing” for Diaz. I just wonder if they are willing to get rid of him at this point.
パトリック
On This Date.....
in 1961, Roberto Clemente’s tenth inning single brings home Willie Mays with the deciding run the NL’s 5-4 win over the AL in the All Star Game at San Francisco
But he homeruns a lot.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Jul 11, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
yep, once a week...
wow, WS here we come
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Angus, did you get beat up by a HR hitter as a kid?
I understand that power is not everything, but sometimes you act like a home run isn’t the most valuable thing a player can do.
it isnt, especially when its a rare occurance
lots of guys hit homers, doesnt make them good players
yes, it is
Please understand:
I’m not saying that teams need to have a ton of power guys.
I’m not saying that players should swing for the fences every time.
I’m saying that for any given AB of any player in any situation, a home run is the best possible outcome. It’s the most effective way to score a run. This is a fact.
There is no scenario in baseball where a double is more valuable than a home run.
well, sure
but the question is, if you got a guy that can hit 3-4 doubles in the same time span that Pena hits 1 HR, the first guy is probably more valuable.
In any case, I entirely agree that Pena is an upgrade.
if you got a guy that can hit 3-4 doubles in the same time span that Pena hits 1 HR, the first guy is probably more valuable.
Right, absolutely. But we don’t have that guy right now, unless the FO starts Jones at 1B every day.
Just trying to remind folks that HRs do tend to be pretty helpful.
We don't have that kind of guy even if Jones starts at 1B everyday
unless we never face a LHP again.
A double is worth 63.5% of a homer in run value.
So, 30 doubles is roughly worth 19 HRs.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 11, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
gotta consider the value of outs too, though
Or did you? Dunno how these stats work.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 11, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Why are we assuming Butler will hit 3-4 doubles for every HR Pena hits?
Butler has 20 doubles. Pena has 19 HRs
For that matter, Adrian Gonzalez has 29 doubles and he’s leading all of MLB. Nobody is hitting 3-4 doubles for every HR Pena hits.
sorry, was referring to the general case
and that angus’ point was probably that… it doesnt hold for Butler and Pena, and I’m def on the Pena boat…
But his Homerun potential causes teams
to pitch other players in the lineup differently.
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Pena has guys like ARam and Soriano in the lineup...
we have Walker and Jones… gag… not exactly scaring teams to actually pitch to Pena…
oh, and Pena is just as putrid against LHP as jones.
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Hitting behind Presley/Tabata/McCutchen would increase his fastballs though… potentially upping HR numbers and lessen the strikeout rates… I mean I am not a fan of adding a rental, nor (as previously stated) do I think they’ll go rental, but I do believe its an upgrade.
Ahh yes... great point Cheap
I forgot about all the speed in front of him.
That speed is the biggest reason I want
to keep Presley in the lineup… It’s devestating in every way.
‘Good’ defensive teams are having problems with that speed… and a good new bat would benefit from that in the 4 hole.
THIS is why I am more inclined to get a guy like Butler than Pena… his type of hitting will maximize the output from that speed… NOT a HR guy that will maximize it once/twice a week.
Upgrade the...pitching?
MLBTR has mentioned twice in as many days that the Marlins are willing to listen to offers on Ricky Nolasco.
That’s a call Neal at least should make and if the price is unreasonable, simply hang up
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
but who do you take out of the rotation?
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Make Correia part of the package
He could be useful for the Marlins: rock solid #3 starter behind Johnson & Sanchez for reasonable money.
Don’t get me wrong, I liked the Correia signing, but when you have the opportunity to upgrade to a guy of Nolasco’s caliber….you do it.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
ummmm, i dont think the Marlins take on Correia because of his 2 year deal
nice try though
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think the 2 year deal is an impediment necessarily
Don’t think Loria (who is the kind of owner people like to paint Nutting as) would necessarily mind only shelling out 4 mil for a steady, reliable starter like KC
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Marlins are preparing for a move to their new park in 2012
if they make a splash with money, it will be in the offseason. no way they take on correia
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
How bout
Trading for Nolasco and puttin him in JMacs spot. I think this team will need a 6th arm to help rest the starting 5. Use Jmac as the 6th guy. I am definitely in the acquire an arm camp. Just curious, I know JMac is young/controlable, but would he be a good chip in a trade for a better alternative?
heard a rumor that a possible 6 man rotation may be in effect in the near future, to limit innings
with Lincoln being the obvious addition.
A few tough starts and now he's gone?
I think you have to leave the pitching as it is, that is the very thing that is the basis for our success.
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't misunderstand me...
…I like Correia. But who would you rather have: Correia or Nolasco?
Not that it really matters I suppose; it ain’t happening. But it’s nice to speculate.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Yes, I agree but the price would be too high at this point
Both financially and pitching mojo… or whatever is going on with this team.
by Piratefan13 on Jul 11, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know. Kevin has a higher ground ball rate lower BABIP and jsut 1 less strike out per inning
I don’t see any reason to move him
let McDonald work out some of his struggles in the pen
Alternately, go 6-man rotation. We’ve talked about keeping an eye on innings anyway.
If we can get Nolasco, we absolutely should.
Whoops....here's the stats
Pena against lefties: .110 avg, 4 out of 19 home runs
I know guys are going to generally hit either righties or lefties better, but that’s…really really terrible
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
but the 20 HRs are so sexy, maaaaaaaaaaaaan
people are blinded by the power numbers. they see the homerun totals and think they are something special…
well dave kingman and rob deer and gorman thomas hit a shitload of homers. dont remember anyone clamoring to add them to their playoff runs back in the 80s
by white angus on Jul 11, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Could you dial back the sarcasm a bit, please?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 11, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree more
Do not want Pena.
Won’t throw a fit or anything if he does end up a Buc, but I won’t plan the parade route either.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
It's 50% about if you want Pena
and 50% about what the team looks like if you don’t get Pena.
Basically, would we be a better team with Overbay as our full-time 1B or LH part of a platoon? Not that Pena is going to be a star or change the whole game, but if we win 2 games with him that we wouldn’t have with Overbay…well, in a playoff race, that matters.
by OctaShields on Jul 11, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
well dave kingman and rob deer and gorman thomas hit a shitload of homers. dont remember anyone clamoring to add them to their playoff runs back in the 80s
What about the 1981/1982 Brewers? They probably don’t win the division title either year without Thomas hitting bombs for them in CF.
How, exactly, would that have worked?
During his prime (i.e. 1978-1982), he was already playing for a contender during pennant runs. The Brewers weren’t going to trade him then – they needed his bat at the middle of their lineup, driving in runs.
OMG… a mantle and gorman thomas comparison? cmon, Vlad.
Power-hitting CF playing for an AL East champ? What’s wrong with that?
Thomas wasn’t Mantle, but he wasn’t just some schlub who struck out a lot, either. His five-year peak was good for 20.2 B-R WAR – that puts him ahead of Jason Bay’s best contiguous five-year stretch (2004-2008, 18.9 B-R WAR). A lot of playoff teams would’ve been happy to trade for Thomas, if he hadn’t already been playing for a contender.
If the Brewers had traded Thomas
the torches and pitchforks would have been legendary. He was a huge fan favorite, the banginest of “Harvey’s Wallbangers”.
My heros have always been Steelers...
Rob Deer was acquired by the Red Sox during a pennant race
In 1993 the Red Sox acquired Rob Deer to give them right handed pop for the pennant race. He hit a few homerums but they fell short. I love the addition though-and would welcome the addition of Pena because he is just better than Overbay.
Damn Vlad beat me to the punch.
Still love Rob Deer though.
Just for reference:
Brewers wins by year:
1978: 93
1979: 95
1980: 86
1981, first half: 31
1981, second half: 31
1982: 95
Heh.
Now that I look, a team actually DID trade for Deer to help with a pennant race. Specifically, the Red Sox traded for him on August 21, 1993. At that time, they were 65-57, five games back on the division-leading Yankees/Blue Jays.
They made Deer their starting RF, which was probably a bad idea, as he was 32 and in the middle of a lousy season. He played like crap, and they finished fifth at 80-82.
his strikeouts were entertaining too
we might as well throw Ron Kittle’s name in here too while we’re at it.
white angus
Did you wake up on the wrong side of the futon this morning? You’re grouchier than I usually am, which is saying something.
パトリック
lol
naw, man, im loving this back n forth stuff today.
i just dont see the love for Pena. ive watched him for years and i just dont get it.
i understand wanting to get rid of Overbay, but i think the pirates would be spinning their wheels by bringing pena in.
I’m with WA… I believe Pena is an upgrade over Overbay but it is so marginal. If they’re going to trade for the 1B position, why not do it as part of the ‘plan’ and do it long term.
Marginal upgrade?
Overbay OPS vs RHP this year: 637
Pena OPS vs RHP this year: 896
Overbay OPS overall: 667
Pena OPS overall: 801
I know we want to compare to Overbay
but shouldn’t we be comparing Pena to a league average 1B which he is.
I mean anyone would be an upgrade, so if you have to give to upgrade, why not go all the way and get a great piece instead of a meh piece?
YOU are the one fantasizing
about Billy Butler. WE are grounded in reality that Carlos Pena is available.
Sometimes a GM has to call and ask about availability
Rather than sticking to who’s known to be available. That’s what we think NH should do and don’t believe it’s unlikely that he has because it makes so much damn sense.
The thinking being if we’ve figured this out, so can he.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Because a “great piece” probably isn’t a realistic option. It’s either upgrade incrementally with a guy like Pena or keep running Overbay out there for the rest of the year.
pena is not an upgrade
Angus, you know I’m with you on the big billy butler thing if it could work. But c’mon you have to admit pena is at least a minimal upgrade.
He's a 1.5 win upgrade
by BBRef WAR. 1.5 wins for a team that’s 1 game back.
OTOH
You really can’t compare Pena’s 1.3 WAR to Overbay’s -0.7 WAR. The decision of whether to cut bait on Overbay is not totally dependent on whether you trade for a 1B – you could replace him with some combination of Garret Jones, Steve Pearce, and Matt Hague and expect (by definition) replacement-level play.
So if you assume that Pena will continue to produce at about the same level for the rest of the year, the question is whether it’s worth giving up whatever you’d give up to add about one win.
pena is not an upgrade
Unless you consider runs scored and allowed, in which case Pena has already been worth about two wins more than Overbay so far this year.
i dont go off of WAR stuff
baseball is a team game. overbay is not producing like he should, i get it. but he obviously isnt hurting the team to the point where someone like Pena should come in.
this is my bullshit and im stikin to it.
If that's the case...
why don’t we just compare Pena to a unicorn? It’s probably more likely we’ll be able to acquire one of those than the mythical great young first baseman who’s cheap and has years of control left.
I'm on it:
Pena: good BB rates, bad K rates, good power against RHP, weak against LHP
Unicorn: good speed, magical healing powers could maybe help our DL
by Garrett122 on Jul 11, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The only think you can trade for a Unicorn
is a soul. And Nutting doesn’t have one.
by Wizard of Woz on Jul 11, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 12, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Marginal upgrade? Overbay OPS vs RHP this year: 637
Pena OPS vs RHP this year: 896
Overbay OPS overall: 667
Pena OPS overall: 801
As of today, Carlos Pena’s 2011 OPS+ is 116. That puts him ahead of every non-Cutch player in the current starting lineup.
He’d be a relatively significant upgrade.
I like you Angus. You make sense to me. I don’t feel Pena would be an upgrade, especially in the clubhouse. This Bucs team has the same mentality as the Indians from Major League: we have to fight and battle and prove we can contend, not have some one who think he’s entitled to come in and ruin it.
I've never really heard anything bad about Pena.
If you’ve followed his career, it’s hard to believe he’d feel entitled to ANYTHING.
this
I havent followed Pena’s career, but given all that time with the Rays, he may be significantly better suited to be on the Bucs than anybody else around…
This Bucs team has the same mentality as the Indians from Major League: we have to fight and battle and prove we can contend, not have some one who think he’s entitled to come in and ruin it.
This is absolutely, positively, your imagination wanting this to be a movie.
You know what our team would like? More offense.
Look, I love that movie too
But the fact is, at the end of the day, teams don’t get better because they’re full of lovable misfits and coaches that do illogical things. That’s Hollywood, that makes for great cinema.
Sure, it’s “relatable” in the sense that we’ve been underdogs all year, but the point is that “team chemistry” is almost always overrated by the fans. Except in extreme cases (Operation Shutdown-type of stuff) by and large the team is not going to be much affected by how buddy-buddy they all are.
Do you seriously think that if Nutting brought in a better bat, McCutchen would be like “Aww man, I liked it better when we scored less!”
he sure has helped the cubs turn the corner
He’s helped them win several more games than they would have with Overbay as their first baseman.
If the rest of their roster kind of sucks, that’s not really Pena’s fault.
cmon Vlad....
at the beginning of the season, on paper, the Cubs are WAY better than us.
you yourself said the Pirates were bad.
yet despite the WAR, the BABIP, the xFIp, the NCAA, the pirates are way better than the cubs.
What’s your point, though? If the Pirates are going to upgrade at the trading deadline, they’re almost certainly going to have to do it by getting someone who plays on a worse team. That’s how it works.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 11, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
yet despite the WAR, the BABIP, the xFIp, the NCAA, the pirates are way better than the cubs.
Thus far in 2011, we’ve accumulated more WAR than the Cubs and posted a better xFIP. Those things are part of the reason we have a better record than they do.
The Cubs have underperformed their preseason predictions because they’ve had players other than Pena who haven’t played up to expectations. That isn’t Pena’s fault, and the fact that they’ve got a losing record right now isn’t a reflection of his play. He can’t fill all nine lineup slots himself.
THIS.
This is exactly what keeps running through my head whenever I read the ongoing Pena/Overbay debate. Pena kills it compared to Overbay. Not sure if that’s who they should go for (I’ll leave that up to someone far more savvy at this sort of thing than I), but just from watching the two of them, it’s clear who is better.
The debate isn’t that Pena isn’t better… but those of us in the Butler corner believe that he’s better long term, and to help us contend through 2015.
I dunno
As has been said elsewhere:
-Royals are sick with talented young bats right now: Butler, Moustakas, Hosmer, Robinson
-Royals have significant holes elsewhere
-Butler is the one guy of those 4 that the Royals would be most likely to deal to fill those holes
Not saying they’re shopping him, but I promise you they won’t be hanging up the phone without at least listening if other GMs come calling saying “Let me make you an offer for Butler.”
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Would you have taken Kila over Pena if this was last year?
Pirates fans of all people should know that proven above-average production in the major league over several years is much more valuable than great AAA production with no MLB track record. When I see Clint, I think Adam Hyzdu or Jeff Clement (without the prospect hype)
i would have not taken kila over pena, or pena over kila
kila isnt the hitter that butler, robinson or hosmer can be. he can take a walk, but doesnt hit the curve. that was known about him 2 years ago
and i agree about MLB production, but Pena is only hitting HRs, which im sorry isnt helping his team worth a damn. its also bloating his sluggin numbers.
his one tool would be taken away from him in OUR lineup because he would be pitched around; there is no one in our lineup to give him protection. no Soriano, no Ramirez, no Byrd…. LHP eat him alive and RHP will pitch him away…
am i being stupid on this?
cedeno
mckenry and the pitcher… if they fail, then we’ll have turned the lineup over so we start with at the top of the order again!
Just for giggles, Overbay has 107.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 11, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
really
the point you are trying to make (badly) is all the more reason you should want a guy like Pena who can hit home runs!
look, this is what im seeing from all of you...
you hate overbay, you want ANYONE to take his place…
to me, thats nuts
no, you got it wrong
i (we, perhaps?) hate Overbay’s play on the field and want someone better than him (like Pena) to take his place…
To be clear, I’d prefer we do better than Pena if we make a move.
Would he be an upgrade? Probably, and I’d be OK with it.
If we stick with Overbay, will be start mashing doubles?
Maybe.
And if we stick a little longer to see what else shakes out (Jones/Pearce at 1B and Pressley in RF), that’s OK with me too.
To sum it up, we’re blowing this potential move/stay put option way out of proportion.
you hate overbay, you want ANYONE to take his place…
No. I want someone better than Overbay to take Overbay’s place.
At the start of the year, that was Pearce, but Pearce is hurt now (as is Doumit, another of the superior internal alternatives during the pre-season period). We don’t currently have any superior internal alternatives who are ready to go.
That being the case, if we want to replace him, we need to go outside the organization. Pena isn’t the only guy who’d fit the bill, but make no mistake, he would be a relatively significant upgrade.
Actually
if you believe that Overbay isn’t going to improve over his year so far, then some combination of Jones, Hague, Pearce, or your canonical replacement-level first baseman would be a superior alternative. Maybe only half a win or so, but still superior.
Actually if you believe that Overbay isn’t going to improve over his year so far, then some combination of Jones, Hague, Pearce, or your canonical replacement-level first baseman would be a superior alternative.
I don’t believe in Hague at all, and I’m not counting on anything from Pearce until he’s actually off the DL, given the way his injuries seem to linger beyond all reason.
and i agree about MLB production, but Pena is only hitting HRs, which im sorry isnt helping his team worth a damn.
He also has 49 walks, which is why he carries a respectable .339 OBP in spite of his low BA.
Other than Cutch, the highest walk total on our team this year is Tabata’s 33. Pena’s OBP is 29 points higher than Overbay’s…
Yeah, but consider the cost to acquire a guy like Butler
The Bucs might have to give up something they really don’t want to in order to get him. Butler would be much better than Pena, but Pena is cheap and available and when you consider production relative to cost, he may be the better play.
MAY be. It’s not like I know what KC would want in exchange for Butler.
cheap, available, and not an improvement
i dont know why people are so upset at my opinion of Pena. I mean, i like him at 1B more than Jones/Pearce, but not enough to bring him on board for a pennant run.
He IS an improvement though!
In every possible way! I’m not upset with you saying you don’t like Pena, but when you say we’re all just enamored with his HR totals (when I’m more enamored with his ability to draw walks and his .800 OPS and 116 OPS+ and his extremely low cost) or that it’s just Overbay hate (when Overbay is HURTING the team with his negative WAR and thus wanting him out of the lineup is justified) or that he’s not an upgrade (when come on…really?), it’s frustrating because it’s not true.
im not a WAR guy, so maybe thats why i cant see it
our pirates are a better team this season despite below average production from 99% of the starting lineup…
maybe its more than just WAR to make a winner
and again, i dont mind if Overbay is gone.
It's definitely more than just WAR
but it sure as hell isn’t 2011 Lyle Overbay
other than cutch, the other 7 in the lineup have put up less stats than what you would like
1B, 2B (yes, even 2B), SS, 3B, C, LF and RF… all could use upgrades if you judged by stats alone
7/8= 87.5%
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
Yes, our teams WAR
should be equal to how many wins we have. So it’s not more than just WAR, it’s literally EXACTLY WAR.
well not really
I think total WAR is supposed to correlate to actual wins above replacement level, but it won’t actually match up, because of things like interactions among the pitching and defense stats, not to mention things like the sequencing of events (whether you walk before or after a homerun, things like that) and performance in high- and low-leverage situations, not to mention that different places have totally different ways of calculating pitching and defensive WAR.
It’s all kind of a red herring though, because by virtually any measurement except straight-up batting average, Pena has been better than Overbay.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 11, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
so you think the royals will stand pat and stink even though they have many holes in their lineup and rotation?
their prospects arent getting it done, brudder
The Royals
Everything I’ve read indicates they’ll listen to offers for guys like Franoeur and Cabrera, but there’s no urgency to move Butler before the trade deadline.
we should get a feeler on Francoeur
i wouldnt mind a lefty masher at 1B… Pearce can inhabit AAA for the rest of the year…
Francouer would absolutely make the team better
He’s basically the same type of player as Matt Diaz in his career (lefty masher), but younger and with better defense and, you know, actually having a good year with the bat.
But he wouldn’t play 1B.
If Francouer was a 1B
He’d be absolutely what we need. Tabata comes back, move GFJ to 1st, platoon him with hypothetical 1B Francouer and prosper.
No
angus has said several times that Pena is not an upgrade. Read the comment I was responding to for one.
Dr. Strangeglove: How Angus learned to quit fantasizing about Billy Butler and love the BOMB.
by Mr. E on Jul 11, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That could be an abberation, though
He has an absurd .098 BAbip against lefties and has a career .737 OPS vs lefties. If his splits normalize at all then he could wind up being a huge steal. Plus, the Pirates best internal option (arguably) is Garrett Jones who also has an awful platoon split.
by KentuckyPirate on Jul 11, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
his last good season against LHP was 2007.
that was his breakout year, BTW. every since then, hes been dwindling in production, especially against those lefties.
people on here have mentioned that Overbay’s production has dwindled over the last 3 seasons, but Pena’s has also. its just that Pena hits homeruns and Overbay does not.
You have a valid point White
but it really costs us nothing (but a few ,million) to have a look at what Pena would bring to the lineup. I mean he wouldn’t be taking AB’s away from anyone at 1B that isn’t already producing more than he is.
i know what Pena brings to a lineup...
as a Devil Rays fan since inception, i have watched many of their games in the last decade, especially when MLB extra innings caught on in my area.
Pena, a decent guy, only got his chance because Greg Norton got injured. After being let go by many teams, Pena finally took advantage of the situation and dominated the AL in 2007.
but make no mistake, the Rays got better the following season because of their pitching and with the addition of Longoria.
once again, im not for keeping overbay. im just not for getting pena.
And the fact that Pena was way better than Overbay 3 years ago
so dwindling from a 6.0 WAR season still allows you to be a good player while dwindling from a 2.0 WAR season makes you replacement lever or worse.
its just that Pena hits homeruns and Overbay does not.
This seems like a pretty crucial difference.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 11, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
But does he hit them often enough to make a difference...
…to the team’s post-season chances?
Though, to be perfectly honest: at this point, my only criteria for a first baseman is, “Is your name Lyle Overbay?” If the answer is “No”…then welcome, sir!
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Just hope Huntington doesn't think like that
As a short sighted basement dwelling fan/blogger, I can say things like that :-)
Really want to see him make a sensible swing for the fences.
Pena is the kind of splash that, while not really hurting the team, would reek of “ZOMG LOOK WE IZ SPENDING MONIEZ”
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
eh, it just doesnt make sense
then we start off 2012 with Garrett Jones as our 1Bman again.
problem NOT solved.
It IS enough
if the alternative is Overbay.
What’s the other 1B alternative? Garrett Jones? A shot in the dark at Billy Butler?
how is billy butler a shot in the dark?
he is a better hitter than pena, and he could be had. sure, he would cost more to get, but hes not untouchable.
According to whom?
We KNOW Pena is available, and we KNOW it won’t cost much in prospects. You THINK Butler is available and THINK his cost will be reasonable.
If you’re right, I agree. But I’m saying that Neil Huntington doesn’t get to talk on blogs, he has to talk to real GMs. He can only do what is there to be done.
What about Gorksy and 3 C pitchersd?
though with the years of control for Butler, I would deal Marte.
Why is everyone so quick to deal Marte???
Marte has the potential to be special. Trading him for a player who can only play 1B is not very good FO strategy.
Nah... I'll pass
Marte has the potential to be a superstar, I see that through to the end.
so did lastings milledge
sometimes you have to make tough decisions. the pirates OF is taking shape, and sooner or later you will have to make a change anyway. I would rather keep whom is already in Pitt and possibly include Marte in a deal for a position in need. what we need the most is a professional hitter at 1B, or an ace type pitcher for the rotation.
As much as I'm with you on the Billy Butler bandwagon...
….I don’t move Marte for anything less than as part of a package for an ace. And there aren’t a whole lot of legit aces who aren’t on contending teams this year.
Shame Cleveland doesn’t have a Sabathia or a Lee to deal away this year.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
But does he hit them often enough to make a difference to the team’s post-season chances?
Well, a home run is the single best outcome for any given AB. Since baseball is a relatively low-scoring game, a home run could easily be the difference in any given game. Considering that we’re essentially in a four-way race right now, an extra win or two would definitely affect our post-season chances.
How many players hit MORE than 1 HR/week?
Of those players, how many are available?
Also, he hits like 1.33 HR per week.
wow... how many K's a week does Mr Pena have?
how many wins has he helped the Cubs achieve? and dont whip out the WAR stuff on me, because thats more of the fantasy stuff that kills the fun with baseball.
So the Cubs would have more wins with Overbay?
This isn’t about crafting a perfect deal, it’s about crafting a deal that is possible and will help the team get better.
OK, let's frame it for you
There are 3 possible outcomes:
1. Acquire someone else to play 1B
2. Acquire Carlos Pena to play 1B
3. Keep Overbay at 1B, make no related moves
You’re getting caught up on #1. I don’t think anyone else is arguing that Pena should be #1, but rather that the odds of something working out for #1 are very low. Instead of dwelling on it, we’re all moving to #2 on the assumption that a) we don’t have access to any information about who else could be available at 1B and the Pirates front office would be interested in and b) it’s more worthy of our time to discuss an option that is almost assuredly actually available.
Therefore, we move to #2, which is a better option than option #3. If you focus so hard on #1 and it doesn’t work out perfectly, then the default is #3, and we’re stuck with Overbay. This is the essence of the argument.
thats actually how we got stuck with Overbay in the first place
no other 1Bman would sign with Pitt, and the internal options arent as good as Lyle…
so now we get rid of Lyle and settle again.
we’re winning WITH lyle, arent we? it doesnt mean we would be winning with Pena after we aquire him.
im totally serious when i say winning is more than just who has the best stats. but im not blind: i know overbay is not doing well, and im glad its just a one year deal. but theres nothing anyone can say that can convince me that Pena is a better alternative when ive been watching him play for half a decade now.
We haven't won diddly poo yet
If we want to win something we need to do better than 1st half 2011 Lyle Overbay at 1B.
how many wins has he helped the Cubs achieve?
Cubs have 37 wins, which is the exact same amount that Butler has helped the Royals achieve
"Don't use your data, because data isn't fun!"
I’d rather go with the gut feeling that Carlos Pena is a bad guy who will kill team chemistry.
by CW on Jul 11, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, I've never played in a fantasy league that used WAR
It’s a stat made by the SABR crowd, through extensive research, that is aimed at trying to quantify how much different baseball events ACTUALLY effect a team’s chances of winning or losing. It’s not perfect, but 1 million times more reliable than personal opinion.
"Answer this question, but don't use information to do it."
Why are you so hostile?
by ThisYearsModel on Jul 11, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
My question is neither rhetorical nor sarcastic. I’m genuinely interested in the answer.
by ThisYearsModel on Jul 11, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
im not hostile. im not a MadCow... im a peaceful bovine
plus i cant find where you asked a question.
I believe the correct answer is
“I got a right to be hostile! My people been persecuted!”
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 11, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he'd be good against lefties
I’m saying that if his BAbip improves at all-it would be almost impossible to stay that low-then his numbers look much better vs LHP and if he’s passable at all vs LHP then he’s a massive upgrade over Overbay and a substantial one (especially factoring in defense) over Jones.
If Pena’s BAbip vs LHP was even .200, which is still low but reasonable given his history (it’s tough to say .098 will hold up) it would take 4 extra hits. Even if you assume that all 4 are just simple routine singles that you get from nomal luck of the draw contact, Pena’s OPS vs lefties rises to a less frightening .626 and his overall OPS is .825. That’s a really good addition to a lineup that is fairly punchless.
by KentuckyPirate on Jul 11, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
you cant assume it will happen
he plays in a hitter friendly park now and still isnt a good hitter. just remember that he hit poorly ALL of 2010 and he hasnt improved on his approach at all.
You can't assume anything in baseball
But betting that a guy will improve on an .098 BAbip is about as safe a bet as you will find. Even Garrett Jones and his sub-Pena .482 OPS vs LHP has a .179 BAbip against them.
I’d agree that Billy Butler would be nice but he would be VERY costly. Given the years left on his contract, he’d probably be more expensive than Hunter Pence and the Royals, with all of their young talent ready to arrive, doesn’t need to deal a veteran middle of the lineup bat.
by KentuckyPirate on Jul 11, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont think you noticed but the Royals bats, except for wil myers, have already arrived...
Butler is not happy to be the DH, that has been well known for some time. KC needs help EVERYWHERE, and their minor league pitching is not ready to contribute.
Montgomery is walking 5 per 9.
Lamb is out with TJ
Duffy is already in MLB
and they are just as bad as they were the last decade.
Butler is expendable; just gotta see what it would take to get him.
My guess is it would be a lot
It’s the first time I’ve tried to do this so I could have screwed up the math but using the same formula that Tim uses for his “Reverse Trade Values” at piratesprospects, I figure that Butler would cost somewhere between Starling Marte and Colton Cain (if he’s a 2.5 WAR player) and Marte, Cain and Stetson Allie (if he’s a 3 WAR player). I’m not saying that I wouldn’t want Butler over Pena. I am only saying that neither of these prices would be one that I’d really want to pay. You might be able to get him cheaper but I’m just not convinced that the Royals are looking to sell him when he’s under control for the next several years.
by KentuckyPirate on Jul 11, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
they will if they get a return that helps them
why? because hes their DH. they need help in the OF and pitching depth.
yes, its going to take a few prospects to get him.
OF help and pitching depth?
Let them have Gorkys Hernandez & any pitcher not named Taillon, Allie or Heredia.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Since we're talking about RHBs...
…it’s probably worth keeping in mind that Juan Rivera was just DFA’ed a few days ago. He hasn’t looked great this year, but the cost to acquire him would be pretty low, and it’s not out of the question that scouts might think he’d improve with better coaching and/or a change of scenery.
He can hit lefties.
I know…a few years ago I picked him up for a deep fantasy league and plugged him in vs. lefties, to very good results. If he can handle 1B defensively, he’d at least give us a platoon option.
He’s a pretty shitty ballplayer. That said, if used correctly, he could help the team win.
Vlad
I think one of Rivera’s problems is that he’s out of shape. I could be wrong, but I don’t know that he can do much about it right now. Maybe he needs to go on the Berkman Plan in the offseason if he’s serious about playing better again.
パトリック
I think it is questiionable
that Tabata should play everyday at the expense of Presley. Granted he is a better prospect at this point because of his age, but this is about right now and there is a lot of evidence that Presley is a more advanced hitter at the moment. BR, for instacne, has them both at.8 WAR for the season but Presley had managed it in less than a third of the PAs. He also hit a lot better this year in Indy than Tabata did there last year,.
Surely we should at least wait until Presley shows significant signs of cooling off before benching him for Tabata.
Look at Tabata's stats through the first 3 weeks of 2011
Remember that? It’s hard to make reasonable analysis based on such a small sample.
Tabata will play when healthy
I love Presley to death and I hope he gets put in RF but Tabata is the better player, by far. The league hasn’t adjusted to Presley yet, when they do, and he continues to hit then lets talk about where he fits in the everyday lineup for the future.
i dont think there's any way
Presley gets benched unless and unitl he cools off. Nobody is taking his spot right now.
He won't get benched, but moved
You don’t sit Tabata when he is healthy, you just don’t.
Agreed. If Presley doesn't suffer a major cooldown...
…Tabata-Cutch-Presley will be your everyday infield heading into the season’s stretch run
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
the tabata/cutch/presley outfield would cause more headaches for teams
than adding carlos pena…
this team should take advantage of the speed that we have, not bring in a guy who cant drive those speedsters in.
meh
looks like you agree Pena > Overbay. Then it simply comes down to what the cost of acquiring Pena is. If its not much, I don’t see why not.
Also, if I was the Bucs, I’d really want to give Hague a shot, before going outside the org…
but why Hague right now? if we were losing i would agree.
if overbay or jones was hurt, i would agree.
but why Hague right now?
Coz Overbay sucks, and needs to go. We need to figure out whether we need to go outside the org for a replacement or not…
we should go outside the organization on this one...
i like what Hague is doing, but hes never been considered a prospect… some would argue that he still isnt.
clint robinson is a better hitter, and left handed to boot, and hes the #28 prospect in the Royals farm.
ive seen him play a few times. but that was last season.
he’s really taken off this year, which is fantastic. hes blossoming in the higher levels which is extremely good news.
We need to figure out whether we need to go outside the org for a replacement or not…
And what does Hague have to do with that? He’s obviously not an adequate answer for the problem.
Mitch Moreland wasn't an adequate answer for the Rangers last year either
Until he came up and started raking.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 11, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Mitch Moreland’s minor league track record was much better than Hague’s. The two aren’t really comparable.
Moreland’s OPS at the time of his call up was .855, and Hague’s is currently .857.
I would prefer to let the players themselves show how valuable they are on the field, rather than having people pigeon hole them as not having enough “power” for 1B.
If Ichiro in his prime played first base, he’d still be an incredibly useful player.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 11, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Moreland’s OPS at the time of his call up was .855, and Hague’s is currently .857.
That was the lowest full-season OPS of Moreland’s minor league career, and the highest of Hague’s. Not to mention that Moreland was two years younger than Hague, and therefore had significantly more upside potential.
Even after accounting for park effects, Moreland was a much better prospect than Hague.
I don't doubt than Moreland was considered a better prospect.
That really is irrelevant when you consider the MLB readiness of someone at a giving point in time.
Just because Hague has a ceiling that is lower long term than Moreland’s, that doesn’t mean he couldn’t contribute at the same level as Moreland did last year for this year’s pennant chase.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 12, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Just because Hague has a ceiling that is lower long term than Moreland’s, that doesn’t mean he couldn’t contribute at the same level as Moreland did last year for this year’s pennant chase.
Even if you take prospect status out of it entirely and look just at the numbers, Moreland’s raw batting performances in 2009 and 2008 were much better than Hague’s in 2009 and 2010, making it much more likely that he’d be a productive contributor if he were promoted.
That’s the “track record” point I was making, which you seem determined to try and discount since it undermines Hague’s case.
if you dont believe that he can keep hitting
he’s certainly doing a good job in AAA. Or if you have significant issues with his defense, which I’ve never seen
if you dont believe that he can keep hitting he’s certainly doing a good job in AAA.
I’m not all that impressed by his play in AAA, and even that’s head-and-shoulders above anything he’s done before.
The guy hits the ball hard almost every time up.
What’s not to be impressed about that? Defensively, sure, he’s still a question mark. I can understand how that is going to be a concern. But, he’s not a worse 1B than we are seeing from Overbay right now defensively.
Secondly, his performance this year is NOT head and shoulders above anything else he’s done.
2009 in A: .293 / .356 / .412 (15% K/AB)
2010 in AA: .295 / .375 /.442 (12% K/AB)
2011 in AAA: .321 / .378 / .479 (12% K/AB)
This doesn’t look like a sudden spike out of nowhere. This is just a natural progression of skill and power due to maturity.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 11, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The guy hits the ball hard almost every time up. What’s not to be impressed about that?
If he’s supposedly hitting the ball so hard, why is he only carrying a .158 ISO against AAA pitching?
This doesn’t look like a sudden spike out of nowhere.
It doesn’t look like a sudden spike because your brain, like that of most people, is so good at recognizing patterns that it sees them even when they aren’t really there.
I've watched a lot of Hague's ABs this year.
He hits very few weak grounders and popups that I’ve seen. He’s hitting hard fliners and shots down the line.
He’s not the prototypical HR hitting 1B with monster power. But that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be a better or equal option to either what we have now on the team or someone we could get like Carlos Pena.
Once again, I think Hague is a question mark on defense, so Carlos Pena might be a better option. But we’re going to need a RHB if we get him, and depending how Pearce progresses, Hague could be that guy.
Once again, even if you see Hague’s performance this year as a spike, that doesn’t matter. Walker’s performance was a spike and he came in last year and performed very well. This year he has fallen back a bit. but we are talking about Hague stepping in and performing right now, and so his current level is really all that matters to me. I could see him putting up a .340-.350 wOBA in MLB this year, and that’s about what Pena is going to bring to the table.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 12, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s hitting hard fliners and shots down the line.
If he’s spraying line drives all over the park, why aren’t more of them going for doubles or triples? He doesn’t need to hit a bunch of home runs to be useful, but he’s not putting up all that many extra-base hits of any sort, and that’s not a strategy that’s going to be effective for a marginal defensive 1B who doesn’t walk much.
I mean, put his batting line up beside Zack Cozart‘s, or Alejandro de Aza’s. Those guys are plausible ML callups because they play SS and CF, respectively. If both were 1Bs, neither would see the majors this year.
may be... again, I'm curious as to why
I looked at his stats and computed his BABIP this year to be about .360, so he’s probably getting a bit lucky. But let’s say he was OPSing .800 with the current K-rate and current decent BB-rate.
Is there a specific reason you think he can’t keep hitting .750 OPS at the ML level for a couple of years? Low bat speed? Bad defense? Too many GB hit? Just curious, since I’ve never seen him play… the numbers make it seem like he could be a slightly above replacement level player, which would be a 1WAR improvement over where we are.
Is there a specific reason you think he can’t keep hitting .750 OPS at the ML level for a couple of years?
A .800 OPS at Indy doesn’t translate into a .750 OPS in MLB. It’s more like a .700. As such, to see him at that level, you need to give him credit for several years’ worth of further development that I’m not convinced he can be reasonably expected to generate.
A few days ago his MLEs for the season projected to a .732 OPS. I think they’ve nudged up a bit since then but not too much.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 12, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
In general, you shouldn’t use that MLE calculator even at the best of times – it really doesn’t work very well.
Using it that way in this case is particularly problematic in that since Sackmann abandoned Minor League Splits it wasn’t updated with the most recent season’s park factors or league offensive baseline. As such, any result it gives is going to have a substantial amount of associated error.
If you run the same methodology using current park factors at the new minorleaguesplits site, keeping in mind that I don’t think the back end on that calculator works very well, it spits out a Pittsburgh-specific Hague MLE of .270/.321/.392 (.713) for his 2011 line at Indy.
ah thanks
I wondered where there was a more up-to-date version.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 12, 2011 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
My fantasy lineup heading into August...
Presley RF
Tabata LF
Cutch CF
Butler 1B
Alvarez 3B
Walker 2B
Cedeno SS
McKenry C
Pitcher
If the pitching continues to hold up its end, that’s a playoff team.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Because that is fantasy on the level of Tolkein
And trading for Butler or someone similar is at least within the realm of possibility
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
looks alot better than relying on Pena to drive in some runs, which he will do "once a week"
Pena will get pitched around by RHPs so much, he will wear out a path down to first base… when hes not fanning the front rows with his strikeouts
What will he do once he gets to 1B?
“Clog the bases”?
And I like how you transformed “hits HR once a week” to drives in runs once a week.
If this conversation continues, I think in another hour you’ll have Pena back in Pony League
this Pena love is just crazy
at the beginning of the season it was Derrick Lee. Now its Pena. when pena flops, who is next? Lyle Overbay???
wait a minute…
It's not Pena love
Stop it with your straw men. People are saying he would be an upgrade over Overbay, and using every single statistical measurement and human eyes, that’s true. That’s not to say there aren’t better options, but Pena is an upgrade over Overbay.
by CW on Jul 11, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
these same people wanted Morton gone... wanted Cedeno gone...
all ive said is that pena is not an upgrade, and im sticking by it
What is wrong with drawing a walk?
He doesn’t have to be a savior, he will be an upgrade. No one thinks he’s an all-star, but he will improve our team and he’s the best available.
Pena will get pitched around by RHPs so much, he will wear out a path down to first base…
Good. The more times he gets on base, the more runs we’ll score.
Also - if there's no path ALREADY worn out to first base
things are looking pretty bad for the Buccos.
I think it may be required by MLB rules.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
no reason to sit Tabata
i m sure they’ll evaluate him when he’s back and playing in rehab. I would put forth that both AAA and a trade may be possibilities for him.
Tabata Traded?
Absolutely not! I freakin revolt if the FO were to do that.
Do not sale the Tabata
He has not even begun to scratch his full potential yet
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
without considering what they get back?
imo, Tabata may be the most valuable trade chip the Bucs hold, and at this point he still has CF value. It’s possible that he’s a. injury prone, and b. never lives up to his potential and c. Presley’s legit.
If you can get back a SP that can help you down the stretch and perhaps with years of control remaining, it may be a good idea.
by BurgherKing on Jul 11, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tabata is 22
Presley is 25, that is reason #1
Reason #2 is that teams aren’t going to give up ace or #2 pitching potential for a LF or CF for that matter.
I don't think you can say that the risk that Tabata may never...
…live up to his potential is a point in favor of trading him and at the same time say that Alex Presley is legit after only 75 major league plate appearances
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
i m not saying Alex Presley is legit after 75 ML PA
I m saying he might be legit after 75 ML PA, and all his time in AA and AAA. Minor league numbers do count.
And, uh, Tabata is legit. I don’t see where I argued against that. But if you could get a Brandon Beachy for him?
oooooooooo, good one
atlanta is looking for OF help. dont think they would let Beachy go for him though.
It didn't go so well for them last time we traded them an outfielder
by CW on Jul 11, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Very true.
I was attempting to make a joke, I should have added a “…” or something there.
Anyway, I would like that trade very much. Good for both teams.
by CW on Jul 11, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
but anyway
all I m pointing out is that there are options like this that are not outrageous. They could happen, and could benefit both teams.
by the way, the last 2 weeks: pirates are the best hitting team in the NL
just thought i would chime in on that.
both overbay and diaz hitting over 300 in that span. granted, not much power even though overbay does have a dinger.
At the rate we’ve been going, I would not be disappointed at all if Alvarez starts to be forgotten for good. Find someone to fill in at third, though I think Chase could do it. Have Wood at 1B, Harrison as a rotation. Cedeno comes back, he’s at SS. Tabata comes back, move Elvis to RF. Boom!
You're willing to throw in the towel on a 24 year old...
…who’s power potential is unequalled at any level of the organization?
Wow.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Sorry, should have clarified. For right now? Yes. If you people here are willing to ride Presley’s hot streak til it ends, why not ride the entire team’s hot streak until it starts to cool down?
because if Alvarez gets hot
then this team has a legit, legit playoff shot. The rest of the guys (Harrison, D’Arnaud, who btw are anything but hot right now) are going to come back to earth…
That makes sense, but...
…a Pedro return to 3rd would not affect Presley’s spot in the OF.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Alvarez will be back
This adversity is good for him early in his career. I think he will respond and be just fine.
I would not be disappointed at all if Alvarez starts to be forgotten for good.
I can see that you have little idea how important Alvarez is to this org. If he fails to get to his potential, that will be a huge huge blow to this franchise. Of course, we will then hear about how terrible the mgmt is and so on…
What would it cost for Butler or Nolasco?
Butler just signed a deal that will pay him 8 million per for the next three seasons, with a team option in 2015. Nolasco just signed a three-year deal that will have 20.5 million left on it over the next two years. Butler’s power is down this year, as is Nolasco’s K rate. I imagine the conversation for Nolasco would start with Brad Lincoln, and you’d probably have to go Tabata or Presley for Butler.
I think Butler would fit in fantastically in the lineup, but the cost might be too high.
That should be "start with Tabata or Presley"
It will obviously cost more than one of them for Butler.
by CW on Jul 11, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
the Royals would take Marte over Tabata and Presley
his stock is rising because of his 2011 and the futures game. he has a much higher ceiling than those two, which isnt an insult to them.
How can I be overrating Marte?
When he is already considered better defensively in CF than McCutchen.
A recent throw to home was clocked at 101 mph.
He is still young and needs to work on pitch selection but that takes nothing away from his value.
What if he turns out to be the next Roberto Clemente? We sure would know how the Dodgers felt if we dealt him away.
if you let joel hanrahan have a few steps before throwing, i bet you its near 110mph
and ive seen both Marte and Gorkys play CF… Gorkys is better… does that mean Gorky’s would move Cutch off of CF??
you shouldnt put tags on Marte like hes the next Clemente. thats just wishful thinking.
I didn't tag him
I was mearly stating that he has the potential to be a star and I don’t want to see him “star” somewhere else because we wanted a slightly above average hitting first baseman. If you trade Marte, its for an ace.
These are the kinds of deals that rob the system of talent and leaves the Pirates mediocre.
not all of those guys are going to make it, PF13
sure its a risk, but waiting for a prospect to become a star is a bigger risk, IMO
Anyone see DK's blog this morning
in which he said scouts eviscerated Pena as an option for Bux.? Also mentioned Pena’s attitude not being a good fit for Hurdle, which I found surprising.
Was it Pena who was actually trying to bunt against the Hammer in the 9th...
…of Friday’s insta-classic?
If so, that kind of “raise the white flag” mentality is not what the team needs.
Overbay already has too much of it
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
The Cubs were down 3
They needed baserunners, not a solo HR. The Pirates had the shift on meaning the entire left side of the field was empty. I took it as a selfless move trying to give your team a shot rather than boosting your own stats.
by KentuckyPirate on Jul 11, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
not sure that bunt was so terrible
they were down by 3, and really needed baserunners… also the Bucs were playing that huge shift…
I'll be honest here...
…didn’t even know the Bucs had a giant shift on; I was at the game behind home plate & was zeroed in on Hanrahan/Pena. Did not even look behind the mound.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Yeah he showed bunt once
and went ahead and actually did it. Wow!
by Horace Clarke on Jul 11, 2011 1:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Let us not forget
We have a 40 man roster crunch coming and not all of our prospects that have to be protected are going to make the cut. So even if we have to give up a minor prospect for a bat that might keep the Buccos in the playoff hunt through the rest of the season is going to be a win…at least in ticket sales, attendance and in the overall opinion of the organization in the off season. Remember all those guys who have not wanted to sign with Pittsburgh in the past because we never win….how will it look this off season if we stay in the hunt all year and return all of the key parts next season (plus a healthy Pedro, Meek, Ohlendorf etc)? Think we might have just a bit easier time convincing some helpful vets to sign with the Pirates? I think so.
Hardy and Pena would get us in good shape. I’d give Pedro Alvarez a full shot next year, but this season might as well shoot for the playoffs.
by Adam Reynolds on Jul 11, 2011 1:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Mike McKenry
just wanted to put this here, but back when the BoSox were struggling at the C position, there SBN blog seems to have had some love for McKenry, and were wondering why he didnt get promoted…
His AAA numbers with Boston were quite nice too. I think there’s a chance we may have lucked/scouted our way into a catcher that could be a solid guy for 3-4 years on the ML roster, at least as a backup…
Mark Strittmatter
He was on Hurdle’s staff in Colorado and works with the catchers. The two of them reportedly thought highly of McKenry from their Rockies days and pushed NH to get him
McKenry may find himself starting next year if he keeps this up
If Snyder can bounce back from his injury well enough, I would not be surprised if the Bucs pick up his option & split time between him and the Fort.
Look at the free agent catchers list this year…it’s entirely decrepit, past-their-prime vets: Posada, Varitek, Kendall, Rod Barajas, Gerald Laird, Ramon Castro. In house, Sanchez is nowhere near ready for major league action yet.
At this point, I think the best option is to pick up Snyder’s option (again, assuming he heals) and roll with him/McKenry next season.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
i think it depends on Doumit and what he does the rest of this season
i like snyder alot, but bad backs on catchers arent exactly a good thing.
I know, it's a huge question mark
The worry with Doumit is…if the Bucs pick up his 2012 option, doesn’t that automatically trigger his 2013 option? Off to check Cot’s.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Yup, it does:
“11:$5.1M, 12:$7.25M club option, 13:$8.25M club option ($0.5M buyout)
club must exercise or reject 2012-13 option after 2011 season”
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
only way doumit comes back is if they restructure the deal
try to get him back on a one-year deal for somewhere around $5 mill
Does the CBA allow that?
I know the NFL allows restructing of deals, but in the NHL, it’s forbidden.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
The Twins probably won't move him,
but the player I’m most interested in is Michael Cuddyer. He crushes lefties and hits league average (99 wRC+) against righties, and while he’s not good in the field, he’s passable at five positions.
He’s the best fit out there for this team, if he doesn’t cost a lot and the Twins want to trade him.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
If the Bucs insist on renting...
…this is who I’d rather have them rent instead of Pena.
I just wonder if Minnesota is going to talk themselves into believing they can make a run.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
The Twins are a pretty smart organization, so I don’t think they’d make that mistake. Their three franchise cornerstones (Mauer, Morneau, and Liriano) are all having nightmarish years whether because of injuries or otherwise, and their bullpen is a monstrosity.
They have very little chance this season, and I expect them to sell. Cuddyer has value, so the Pirates might night to do a little bit more than reach into their wallets. He wouldn’t cost Starling Marte or anyone like that, but one or two of the recent bonus baby pitchers might be in play. I’d deal from the deck of ZVR, Locke, Morris, Stevenson, Dodson, Waldron, or other players like that.
Cuddyer is good.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
by Suffering Buc on Jul 11, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
i think cuddyer is better than pena and ludwick
but i dont think its good enough… i wouldnt be too upset about it, because like you said he can play a few positions
we need baseball back
something fierce
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 11, 2011 2:20 PM EDT reply actions
What do you mean by this?
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
by Suffering Buc on Jul 11, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
a 250+ comment
thread on trade posssibilities tells me that we all need baseball back. all star break is dumb
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 11, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Far better than
a 250+ comment thread over the ASB about who the Pirates should be picking in next year’s draft.
you're both right
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 11, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll throw a name out there -- Nick Markakis
Hits for average, gets on base, has shown at least decent power (15 HR) and plays good defense.
2011 27 Baltimore Orioles $10,250,000
2012 28 Baltimore Orioles $12,000,000
2013 29 Baltimore Orioles $15,000,000
2014 30 Baltimore Orioles $15,000,000
2015 31 Baltimore Orioles *$17,500,000 (Team Option 2 million buy-out)
It’s a hefty salary and one could argue when Markakis signed it he hasn’t lived up to it, so the Orioles may be sellers. Markakis could become part of the core, and possibly see a spike in production getting away from the Yanks, Red Sox, and Tampa pitching.
This would be along the lines of a Hunter Pence acquisition, but Markakis is signed longer. Markakis also probably isn’t as good as Pence, so it’s kind of a wash.
I’d guess Presley / Marte / Allie would get it done. Whattya think guys? First, would you even want Markakis? Secondly, too high a price? Too low?
Both his salary and your suggested price is too high
Do not want.
by CW on Jul 11, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Markakis would make it possible to deal Presley...
…and he’s a VERY good/consistent hitter…career .296/.365/.464. Hell of a good glove in right.
But as good as he is, that salary is crazy high, even for a team like Bucs willing to absorb some, plus he’s not worth Marte and Allie. At that price, pass.
Not even sure the Orioles would be willing to listen to offers anyway, barring a dramatic overpayment of the sort the Bucs can’t afford to make
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
If you look at his stats through his first 2 or 3 seasons
you can’t blame them for thinking he’d be worth it. He regressed something fierce…for a while he looked like .310/.875, 25-30 HR a year guy with good defense. He looks more like a .295/.800, 15 HR guy and that’s not worth the investment.
yes i can blame them... orioles doing crazy stupid shit again!
just like trading for Reynolds, signing Lee… you get anamored with the big power numbers and when the players struggle then all you have is a bad team with huge contracts…
there was no reason to sign Markakis to that big of a contract. not yet anyway.
I'm going to stop arguing with you
There are so many leaps in logic that it’ll take me longer to remedially fill in the gaps that you’re skipping over/creating that there will be no time to get to the actual points that matter.
But here’s the last one.
1. Signing Markakis prior to the 2009 season. At that time he was 25 and was coming off 3 very good seasons. In 2008, he hit .306/.896 with 20 HR and played very good defense in the outfield. He was the face of the franchise, young, and displaying all 5 tools at 25. To suggest that the extension they signed him to at that point was foolish is laughable. In many respects, he was in a similar place to where McCutchen will be after this season. Look at his stats through 2008 and tell me there was something glaring that the Orioles missed when they signed him.
2. He had 20 HR the year before. The Orioles weren’t “anamored” [sic] with big power numbers, they were enamored with a young OF who looked like a great RF, 3rd hitter and face of a franchise for years to come.
3. Yes, the Orioles suck. But signing Markakis to an extension is in no way related to signing Reynolds or Lee. And, you forget, they also signed Hardy.
You are absolutely wrong. Absolutely. wrong.
thanks for rubbing it in my face, by the way
and the pirates shouldnt sign McCutchen for those amounts either
The amount of years and dollars is subject to reasonable debate
But I couldn’t let you get away with everything else you were saying.
And for the record, I don’t think we should get Markakis.
Cutch may give you $45 MM value this year alone
Plus he’s the very profile of guys who age well and stay healthy/productive
by Horace Clarke on Jul 11, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
giving Cutch a long term deal that averages around $13MM, right now, is crazy
just because Markakis got it means cutch should get it…
THIS IS JUST ANGUS’ OPINION GUYS.
depends on how much free agency you're buying
by Horace Clarke on Jul 11, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
If you buy out two+ years of free agency...
…you give Cutch that contract and don’t think twice about it
Only one, though, and you give him less.
Just my opinion though
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
I disagree on pure value alone
But additionally, I think if the Pirates don’t lock up their first legit young star in 2 decades….well, people aren’t going to be thrilled. If a fair deal can be struck, it needs to get done.
The Bruce deal for Cutch
is an absolute steal
by Horace Clarke on Jul 11, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not happening.
The window for that closed 2 years ago.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 11, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't mind paying him slightly more than some of the comparable extensions of the last few years
like Bruce & Co. He’s a better all-around player than most of those guys, he’s the face of the franchise and he is, by all accounts, a good clubhouse guy and hard worker. He’s young and his skillset is one that suggests he’ll continue to get better through his late 20’s.
And people are starting to love the Pirates again. This would show everyone that they’re serious about fielding a good product, year in and year out.
In my dreams, I'd like to see...
….Cutch sign something like a 7 year/91 million dollar contract. That’s a 13 mil AAV, with maybe the money increasing per year over the life of the contract, reaching 17-18 the last.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
yeah my last comment
is better left alone. i would take that deal, though
by Horace Clarke on Jul 11, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
As good as Presley has been so far, I’m not yet sure he’s not a part-time player in the end, and I don’t think the Pirates should necessarily wait for his hot streak to end before making a move that would reduce his playing time.
Sounds pretty much like the same argument made about how we should have demoted Karstens from the rotation after half a dozen excellent starts to bring up Lincoln.
Thats why I prefer righty bat as pick-up.
Presley sticks in RF as long as he hacks it, Jones becomes 1B/RF lefty swing guy who can replace/spell Presley if necessary, Pearce is 1B/3B righty swing guy, and new RHB fits into corner/OF mix. Status of Overbay and Diaz contingent upon how other pieces come together, but Overbay likely to be more vulnerable given length if contracts and Pearces injury history. If/when Pedros up, he gets bulk of ABs at 3rd.
by Horace Clarke on Jul 11, 2011 3:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
+1
I don’t know what his ceiling is but I see a quick bat and someone who can work the count. Good pitch recognition. Doesn’t look like the type of player to go into long slumps. I wouldn’t sit him at all until others can outplay him. If he keeps up this level of play by July 31 there really wouldn’t be any reason to bench him or expect it to end. Hell if he’s still hitting like he is now Jones will be going to the bench if a first basemen is acquired and not Presley. Pena, Reynolds..? meh, seems like a lot of people want to see trades for the sake of trades being made. Any deal that results in less playing time for Presley will likely make the team worse imo.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
im sick of this for one reason!
Anyone will say we need another bat and I think yeah we need a power hitter. People keep saying pitching will regress. This player is not a starter and this player will fall on his face. How about this… This team is FOUR games over 500 without their best power hitter and maybe their best pitcher on paper almost the whole season and still FOUR games over 500. I am all about adding a player, but why a rental? If this team performs 4 games over 500 for the second half or better they make the playoffs or at least make a run at it. They will get better with their injured players returning. If they make a deal make a smart one. We don’t need anymore Overbays or Diaz on this team. Pena’s and Reynolds aren’t helping their teams win and their numbers wont help our team win. Let’s see what happens next two weeks and who is availabe.
by Joey Mooney on Jul 11, 2011 3:08 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
What incentive does a team have to deal a non-rental?
How often do you see established players moved at the TD that have years of control left? Possibly a guy with 1.5 years like Bay but I can’t think of anyone else that is actually decent.
Bay has been hot...
Maybe a homecoming is what he needs to excel I don’t know? We need a right handed bat!
by Joey Mooney on Jul 11, 2011 4:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, All we need to do is take that albatross of a contract!
by MarkInDallas on Jul 11, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
He’d pretty much have to revert to a 4 WAR player to justify $16M per year.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 11, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Pena's numbers would absolutely help our team
That’s not even debatable.
by CW on Jul 11, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
What one more win?
Not enough… We need more than that… and I want a right handed bat!
by Joey Mooney on Jul 11, 2011 4:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So if we're coming to the end of the Great Pena Debate...
…who wants to talk about signing CC Sabathia when he opts out? (KIDDING)
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
everybody here would like Butler
its a lot less clear that the cost in prospects is worth paying at this point, if he is even available.
As far as acquiring Butler, I don't think many people are against it
It’s not a yes vs. no argument. The people disagreeing with yourself and angus are more likely disagreeing either that 1. He isn’t available, or 2. if he is available, the price would be too high to justify paying for him.
But anyone who thinks he wouldn’t be an upgrade at 1B is smoking oregano.
Butler
I would also rather have Butler than Pena, but, ….I spoke today with a couple people that are relatively rabid and knowledgable Royals fans. Both of them said they have no reason to believe the Royals would even consider dealing Butler during the season.
What I'm not understanding is the debate over not dealing top prospects
for a guy who’s proved he can produce at a higher level, who’s under control through 2015?
I mean THIS is a guy you’d be willing to deal some prospects to get.
yes
the question is, is it time to start doing that yet? Would getting one established player significantly improve the chances of going to the playoffs, or do they need those top level prospects to click to get there… one star-level player is often not enough.
That is the problem here— the 2011 team is also not a playoff team, but they are now in the position where with more than half the season gone, they only need to play out of their minds for another half, instead of a full season.
everyone keeps saying that the 2011 team is not a playoff team, yet we keep getting better!!!
our june was the best month in years, we’re winning despite everyone bitching about the players, specifically the ones not playing up to their standards.
almost everyone on this blog, except evenmeek, said the Pirates were going to stink. that 2011 might be worse than 2012.
now they are saying this team wont make the playoffs.
so far, everyone has been wrong about this team, including myself.
yeah, i agree
i didnt think this team was a playoff bound team, and I still don’t. However, I believe they were better than I thought, unexpected people have made sustainable contributions, and some guys are playing over their heads. It’s anybody’s guess as to whether this will continue or not, but I do believe they have a shot and the team should try to make moves to help them.
They do need to be smart about it, and can’t afford to give up top prospects. However, evaluating well is important, and trying to find contributions from unexpected sources or good fits is probably the way to go…
It's a tough call
I see Butler as part of that long term goal. He fills an immediate need, that keeps giving till 2015 at a fairly reasonable price.
He’s also putting up damn good production at 25. We’d get the guy through his golden years, then he’d be gone.
I’m sorry, but I truly believe giving a top prospect for this guy would be a huge benefit to this club and not just for this year.
for the record, im not saying to go get Butler either
im just saying, why settle for Pena?
if this has pissed people off, and aparently it has for no good reason, i apologize.
I agree, I just don't like the idea of a rental.
It doesn’t address the long term hole at 1B, and free agency has proven tough to get real talent in at the ‘glory’ positions.
Young, proven, expensive talent makes sense if they don’t go overboard to get it.
Angus, let me give you a heads-up
Saying “Pena is not enough of an upgrade over Overbay to be worth the potential cost” is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint. That would not piss anyone off.
Your arguments in this thread have been moderately annoying — at least to me — because you just keep saying that Pena won’t be an upgrade at all, which, basically any way you want to look at it, is incorrect.
Then, when folks have called you out on that, you respond with goofy platitudes about how often he’ll drive in runs, or who will hit behind him, all of which ignores the fact that, even if he’s not very good, he’s still very likely to be better than Overbay.
I’ve found that on Bucs Dugout, posters are very tolerant of other points of view — so long as those points of view can be somewhat supported by actual facts.
I am convinced that Pena has deflowered Angus' daughter.
That’s the only explanation I can come up with.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 11, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Or his mother.
That is another thing to consider!
by MarkInDallas on Jul 11, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
is this referring back to bluecheer's comment or yours?
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 11, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
FANTASTIC... WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!
a little banter about carlos pena not being good enough and you insult my family…
nice.
whoa, how is this appropriate on this blog???
i get called whiteANUS, idiot, moron and stupid, now youre saying Pena banged my daughter????
what the fuck did i do to anyone in here???
yet im the asshole?
It’s not appropriate. Let me know if you want it taken down.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 11, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
no, please leave it up
if he wants to go that route, he has every right to it.
sorry to bother you about it.
Hey hey.
Just a joke, man. I’m sort of shocked you are taking this seriously.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 11, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe
its a question of which prospects would need to be given up, and what the FO feels on them. I wouldn’t be opposed to giving up a top prospect (bar Taillon) but I can see the reasoning for not doing it too.
yep, it all comes down to the specific package
by comparison, pena and several others are basically just gonna cost you money, which you have by all accounts
by Horace Clarke on Jul 11, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
"...is it time to start doing that yet?"
You nailed it. That’s just another major factor that makes all this “should we get Pena or Butler or Nobody” talk even more interesting. Also affecting the discussion is what happens when we get the rest of the troops back? Lots of stuff to consider.
Pena is not worth it
He is a lifetime .239 hitter.
Put the 5 million in the bank to pay Andrew in the future.
Just platoon Pearce with Overbay on first.
Blah
500+ comments, im not going to even bother reading any arguments. My new favorite day of the year is about to be the day after the deadline just so this trade talk will end.
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend!
This is a joke, right...
I was ripped for brining up Ludwick as an add posibility.
I agree with you Charlie.
It doesn’t cost a thing to believe and the payoff on a winner is huge!
has ludwig significantly dropped off over the past few years?
i remember this guy just being a beast….why is everyone so up an arms against this…and why FFS is everyone so dang pissy today…again we need baseball back because clearly everybody hates everybody and without ball we are bound to kill each other……kinda like congress
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 11, 2011 6:29 PM EDT reply actions
er ludwick...derp
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 11, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
He has a point though
Ludwig’s production has definitely dropped from his prime over the past couple hundred years
If this was the off season would it even be a question of Pena vs Overbay??
Has Lyle played that much better than Pena to sway this opinion the other way if all it costs is a fringe player and some salary??
Pena is an improvement over Overbay, no question.
The question is, how much? And how much baggage (attitude, etc.) does he bring with him? Assuming for a moment that he is going to be a rental (not signed for 2012), does his bat bring enough of an increase to ignore potential damage to the clubhouse atmosphere?
When Dejan indicates scouts have told him that Pena’s attitude will not mesh with Hurdle’s, that raises a red flag. That isn’t a personal opinion that Dejan is expressing, it is word from scouts, which people around here tend to pay attention to. Reports out of last week’s meeting seemed to value team chemistry, and not wanting to affect that.
I will be surprised if Neal takes Pena off Hendry’s hands. And if he does, I doubt it costs us much more than a check from Bob Nutting.
Actually, it is EXACTLY a personal opinion, just not DK’s. Pena is a massive upgrade over Overbay. How much is he an upgrade over Jones/Pearce/Hague? Hard to say. That also assumes Presley is for real and maintains production into October.
These are the same scouts, however, that provide the information that some (or many) people here seem to thrive on when formulating opinions whether players are valuable.
A significant fraction of people here also tend to gripe that Dejan too frequently interjects his own opinions into stories. This is not one of those cases. So the attitude issue MAY have some validity to it. One of the things that most everyone has noted about this team is the attitude of the team as a whole. I’m sure they don’t want to damage that unless the return is very significant.
has anyone considered...
… maybe trying to trade for carlos pena? I haven’t seen anyone suggest that yet… seems like an intriguing idea… maybe it works! maybe it doesn’t! who can know?!?
alternatively, perhaps billy butler? hey, youneverknow!
by Captain Easychord on Jul 11, 2011 10:22 PM EDT reply actions
Had the same thoughts....
although we need to consider Lars Anderson, whose a blocked MiLB 1B for the Red Sox.
I hate getting home late from work – see this thread and think, “Let me read this. No, that will take to long, let me summarize.”
By unanimous consent, Bucs Dugout posters recommend trading for Carlos Pena, right?
What does that mean?!
by Trogluddite on Jul 11, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Buttercup is marry Humperdinck in little less than half an hour, so all we have to do is get in, break up the wedding, steal Carlos Pena, make our escape, after I kill Bruce Bochy.
That doesn’t leave much time for dilly-dallying.
by DG Lewis on Jul 12, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
It is such a pity that I can only rec this once.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 12, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
One thing that might not been mentioned is that I’m sure Hendry is trying to get a big deal to save his bacon in Chicago, that could drive up his price. We will see who blinks, but I’m sure right now the asking price for Pena would be someone like Marte, which would be insane to trade. It takes two to tango, and we don’t know the desperation of GM and who will blink first. While Pena is an upgrade defensively and offensively, Neal has to weigh in the risk reward involved trading anyone for him and wither . Unless Hendry hand is forced, I don’t see him being traded for cash and a C prospect. Finally, both sides of the Pena argument are correct, yes his low batting average looks bad and he might not fit in the clubhouse, but yes he does have solid other offensive numbers underneath. I do wonder if this argument comes from the relatively weak performance plus body mannerisms of the last series have affected our arguments.
Pena is only a good option, when the position of our organization is considered, if the best thing going back to Chicago is salary relief.
I really wouldn’t want him if he required any prospect that sniffs our top 10.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/pirates-angels-discussed-jones-for-mathis-swap.html
we might be making room for additions, serious discussions for Jeff Mathus for Garrett Jones.
584 COMMENTS!
Debating whether we should go after Pena, Markakis, Moreland, Cuddyler, even Bay! Primetime99 must be rolling over in his cyberspace grave.
oh now theres one...
would jaybay be willing to come back and whats dudes salary at these days
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 12, 2011 3:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Only $16M for .300 wOBA.
No sweat. That would show Nutting’s commitment to winning! lol
by MarkInDallas on Jul 12, 2011 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions
ouch
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 12, 2011 4:08 AM EDT up reply actions
i think this is terribad idea.....
unless this is one of those multi piece deals to land a big name to make a run. course i know nothing about the guy just looked up his profile, doesnt look appeasing at all…
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 12, 2011 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions
just saw on this trade talk thing
it looks like the bucs walked away from teh table according to a few different sources i checked.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 12, 2011 4:09 AM EDT up reply actions
ludwick
ok so i did some back checking on ludwick trying to figure out wtf happened to a dude who was 16th one year in mvp voting and a Silver Slugger.., yeah petco, he had 11 yard balls before he was dealt to the padres last year…only 6 for the remainder of the season. this years he’s got 11 to this point. guys got a substandard line of 245/310/390. which is down significantly from his day in stl. hitting 276 off of leftys. just some preliminary info since its like 4am….ish
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 12, 2011 4:19 AM EDT reply actions
Ludwick is average at best
He’ll make Diaz look OK and by the way, he’s hit over 300 the past 6 weeks or so.
Change for the sake of change is stupid
by jackiegleason on Jul 13, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Out of this entire post...
I’m just glad to see Charlie say he isn’t opposed to acquiring Pena. Glad I’m not the only one who thinks it wouldn’t be a bad idea.
Yes, Pena will strike out a ton and will have a low average. But he is also a power upgrade and a defensive upgrade over Overbay, who also has a terrible average.
I’d rather have a low average, plus power and plus defense over Overbay’s low average, poor power and what has been pathetic defense thus far. And it’s not going to take a lot to get Pena.
I just don’t see the harm in getting Pena if we can get him relatively cheap. Upgrade all around.
Out of this entire post part deux ...
Acquiring Pena would be a good move, by and large the people who oppose it and point to his low batting average and strike outs as reasons are the same people who were screaming bloody murder when Bay, Nady, Wilson, Sanchez, McLouth and Morgan and claiming the moves were evidence the team ownership wasn’t committed to winning. Nobody in a successful franchise’s front office considers batting average a meaningful stat any more and those who do shouldn’t be taken to seriously.
The real quibble I have with Charlie’s piece is this…
“Jose Tabata really should play every day, or most days, when he returns (you can’t very well turn him into just the right-handed side of a platoon)”
Really, Tabata should play every day, based on what?
Truth is that Tabata, and Walker to lesser but notable extent, are getting credit for performances early in the year that they haven’t been able to maintain. Tabata’s entire June was utterly abysmal. His June .671 OPS is only eclipsed by his even more awful .653 OPS against right handed pitching. His walk rate, something he was never noted for in the minors, completely collapsed in June – from 13 in 101 plate appearances in April, 16 in 87 PAs in May to 4 in 93 PAs in June. Add to that his complete lack of power and his dropping proficiency at base stealing which is supposed to be his main asset …
Frankly none of that adds up to a left fielder on a contending team and Tabata looks like a perfect platoon mate for Jones in a Presley/McCutchen/Jones outfield should they acquire Pena to play first.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 13, 2011 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Odd
I had no idea that Mario and Luigi were both not playing Major League Ball. Mario out for the year with a shoulder injury and Luigi, I don’t know. And I don’t care. It sure is nice to have the Pirates winning, last year I had a pretty good idea how most of the ex Bucs were doing.
On the Cheap...
Love the Bonds line… seriously though I was thinking about how the Pirates might accomplish their goals in the cheapest possible way with out giving up anything in a trade…
I wonder if Hank Blalock has been staying in shape?
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 13, 2011 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
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