Trade Deadline Scenarios Thread, 13 July 2011
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 13, 2011 5:08 PM EDT
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I'll start it off - Chris Iannetta
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/ubaldo-jimenez-on-reds-radar.html
Apparently the Rockies are willing to listen on nearly any player on their team, I present to you Chris Iannetta. He is a right handed hitting C signed thru next season. Iannetta is about average on defense but has above average power and draws a ton of walks. He currently sports a .369 OBP (.356 career). He also has a .349 wOBA (.346 career). What he doesn’t do is hit for a high average or catch 7 days a week, but that’s what makes him acquirable.
Mckenry has been a nice plug-in but an upgrade can’t hurt. There is no assurance Chris Snyder will return this year and this would allow us to ship Doumit out in August, or to put the Fort in AAA until September and keep Doumit as the backup. This also solves our C issue for next year as we simply decline options on Snyder and Doumit and roll with Iannetta/Mckenry in 2012.
My semi-ignorant price estimate: Kyle Mcpherson and Andrew Lambo.
What is his contract situation?
Alternatively, what site actually lists contracts? I’ve been meaning to ask that.
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 13, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, his contract his no problem.
The only other thing that would worry me would be his Home/Road splits, and while they are .864/.714 for this career, even if his did have a .714 OPS, that would be absolutely fine with me. Like Mr. E said, he and I suppose Doumit splitting time this year and then he and McKenry splitting time next year would be quite adequate.
alternatively...
instead of moving doumit or demoting mckenry, picking up ianetta could allow the pirates to put doumit at first and drop overbay… not sure how great the doumit to first idea is, but as part of a move that’s as much for next year as this, it doesn’t seem THAT bad…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 13, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously...
The Doumit to 1B talk needs to stop. It ain’t happening.
by mspirate on Jul 14, 2011 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fort is playing pretty solid
batting .321 in July. He’ll be fine for now. Keep the prospects.
Iannetta
only hitting .220. i don’t see how this improves anything.
i wouldnt call it very poor
i mean, most teams end up benching those same guys hitting .220, including the ones who hit 30 hrs or walks 80 times…
i know theres more stats to evaluate, but baseball hasnt advanced to what you are saying just yet.
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
This guy hit .230, this guy hit .260, this guy hit .277. Who is better at offense? You have no idea.
Aki hit .180,
I could tell you without hesitation that he sucked.
Batting-Average and HRs are the quickest, and oldest, ways to tell how a player is performing offensively. The advanced stats are a much better way to measure performance, but you can’t throw away the simple stats.
That is, of course,
Unless you have mad power.
The power can simply be measured by HRs. If a guy bats .220 with 5HRs all year, he won’t be around long.
.220 with 40HRs is different. You can’t throw out the simple statistics, they still work.
I like
how you seamlessly blended batting average into Batting Average + combined Home Runs somehow. Even then, a player could walk 100 BB a year and hit 15 triples and be way better than a .255 singles hitter.
You have to see my point though,
yeah a player can walk, hit doubles, triples, etc. But if he’s batting .220, he doesn’t do it too often. I’d put him in the 8th spot in a lineup. Yeah, he can get something going, but it doesn’t happen often enough for him to be up top.
And most hitters in the 8-hole don’t have long careers.
Wrong.
a .220 avg tells you nothing about how much they walk or hit extra bases (other than it’s not 23% of the time)
tell that to Mark Reynolds
the D’backs became a better team without him, and the defense is much better too.
Pena may end up with 30+ homers this season and bat around .200… hes also “affordable”… so why wont the CUBS keep him around?
answer that one.
"so why wont the CUBS keep him around?"
Because they’re out of contention and want to get something back for a guy that, in all likelyhood, will be gone next year…?
different comparison, and you know it.
halladay is a multi- cy young winner, pena is a former multi failed 1Bman who cant hit Halladay’s weakest pitch
:-D
Chris Snyder clone...meh
low BA, all his value comes from BB and HR
by Brian Cartwright on Jul 14, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
What's wrong with Chris Snyder?
He won’t cost us $7m next year and is far healthier. We need someone for next year
" ...far healthier."??
Huhwha?
.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 14, 2011 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
If the Pirates exercise his option for next year...
you are correct…Snyder won’t cost the Pirates $7M next year. He’ll cost us $6.75M.
You can see why, right?
What’s wrong with Chris Snyder?
Then your next sentence starts with “He…” which would seem to refer to Snyder.
I getcha now, though.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 15, 2011 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I will wait till Doumit comes back. A better choice for me.
by pittsburghdad6 on Jul 14, 2011 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Forget next year,
think about next month. Either Doumit’s defense drives us crazy, OR he gets hurt again, like he always does.
When he is not playing every day
his defense is not bad. There is no indication that he will go back to playing catcher everyday, so I see no reason that the defense would drive us crazy.
by Wizard of Woz on Jul 15, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
What's the difference?
If he catches daily, or catches every other day? If you can’t catch, you can’t catch.
If you can’t catch, you can’t catch.
Well then, I guess it’s a good thing that this is not the case. As he showed us earlier this year with more rest he performs better.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
I don't think that's true,
You’re comparing a small sample (catching while rested, this year) against his career.
In his career, he’s one of the worst defensive catchers I’ve ever seen. Dusty Brown pissed me off, and was almost un-tolerable, and I think Doumit is only slightly better than Brown.
Why do the bucs need another catcher?
You have a glut with in 2 weeks or so and Ianetti doesn’t hit anywhere but Coors
by jackiegleason on Jul 17, 2011 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say we'd have a glut...
Snyder won’t be back until September, at the earliest.
Doumit still isn’t a catcher, IMO.
Jaramillo is a 3rd string catcher, who had a horrible offensive season last year.
McKenry is a 2nd string catcher, filling in admirably.
So yeah, we should still look into adding someone.
and it's more for next year than this
McKenry can go to AAA for August and come back in September. Or you can ship off Doumit between now and September if you like.
Kyle Blanks
With Rizzo taking over first base for the Padres, they may deal Blanks. He has been playing OF, but he is a 1B. Elbow problems killed his numbers last year, but he has mashed in both AA and AAA this year.
It would be great to grab him before they dealt Ludwick.
What about Rizzo?
I know nothing about him, but would he serve our purpose? What is his pedigree? Just wondering if Rizzo would be a better yet realistic target.
Good day.
I doubt San Diego gives up Rizzo.
He and Kelly were the centerpieces of the Gonzalez trade. Trading either of them for a non-amazing return would get the team slaughtered by their media/fans.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
I love lots of guys. - leaflover4ever
Blanks should be a 345-360 wOBA
a little above average for an outfield corner…would gladly have him take Diaz’s spot on the roster, plus he also plays 1b
by Brian Cartwright on Jul 14, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Blanks could be a stud,
a change of scenery could do wonders, along with a demotion to AAA. I’d love to have a legitimate power hitting prospect to go with Alvarez. Of course, both need to develop.
Anibal Sanchez
http://danny-knobler.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/8590096/30580070?source=rss_blogs_MLB
Ok, so that article doesn’t name Sanchez but his name has been floating around in other places and the article does establish the Marlins as possible sellers.
So, our rotation has been performing well this year but too many questions linger about the future and their legitimacy. This guy is legit and turning into a top of the rotation guy right now.
Anibal Sanchez, 3.58 ERA, 109 ERA+, 9.3 K/9, 3.10 xFIP
He’s walking less for the 3rd straight year, throwing harder than ever and K’ing more. He’s also performing under his peripherals and might benefit in front of our defense and stadium. He’s only signed through 2012 (my guess is ~$7.5m) so his acquisition price will not be extreme but not cheap either.
My guess: Justin Wilson, Zack Von Rosenberg, + Brett Lorin.
What's yours?
I’m just adding those for discussion, I thought about Marte but I think they want arms and at least 1 that is near MLB-ready. We have a few of that type but none seem to be performing all that well so it basically came down to Wilson or Lincoln. Maybe turn Lorin into a Lambo/Jarek or Rojas. But yeah I can definitely see them asking for someone with more ceiling than any of the guys I suggested.
Neither Von Rosenberg nor Lorin probably has much value right now.
I don’t think we can get Sanchez without moving a guy like Marte or Cunningham or Cain in the deal, someone we’d really rather hang onto. Maybe more than one of those guys. Prices at the trading deadline for above-average starters are insane, due to the limited supply.
McPherson?
What’s his prospect status, at the moment? I never thought he was much of anything. If this was the Nady deal, would he be in the Karstens/Coke/Kontos/McCutchen range, or higher/lower?
McCutchen might be a good comp...
off the top of my head and without going back and looking at his numbers. Similar stuff and I think DCutch was known to have pretty good control numbers.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Not saying i want him but
What are the feelings of Carlos Lee playing first base? I know he has played there some. He will most likely be on the block with houston in the cellar for the next 5 years. His power numbers are down but looks like he can still hit decently. Although he is owed a ton of money th Stros might pay most of it, also he has hit Lefties very well. A Lee/Jones platoon at first might not be so bad?
Lee’s batting .270 with a .741 OPS 7 hrs. and a 1.4 war and he is hitting lefties very well, .338 average and UZR likes him at a +12 for his career at 1st.
His contract doesnt seem very freindly and i believe he is under contract for next year.
age of last winning season: 5
What are the feelings of Carlos Lee playing first base?
He doesn’t hit enough to do it for a good team IMO, and he has a full no-trade and (reportedly) no interest in leaving his Texas ranch behind anyway.
Lee’s contract is extremely unfriendly as well: $18.5M this year, and another $18.5M in 2012.
plus his body type
seems like the kind that could go to hell at any time. at 36 years old, he’s a no-thank-you in my mind, even before we start discussing that contract
Ricky Nolasco
Another arm from the fish. Nolasco is 28 and has an extra year of control on Sanchez, as a FA in 2014.
For 3 years now Nolasco has underperformed his peripherals so questions remain whether he truly is as good as his ERA says. That said, he’s improved to a 3.70 ERA this year although his strike outs have dropped from 8.39 to 6.55 per 9 innings. He’s also dropped .8 MPH off his fastball from last year so that is something to watch.
Estimated price: Brad Lincoln, Colton Cain, + Robbie Grossman.
I'd be okay with this
I think I’d be okay with this. Nolasco is pretty awesome. I’d rather not give up Cain, but if we’re getting an MLB pitcher than Lincoln becomes pretty expendable.
Here is someone that might not be mentioned, I think Brett Gardner could be pried off the Yankees for the right price. Brett is a patient hitter with a ton of speed that is an elite defender, and quietly put together a 5+ war last season.
Gardner is a bum
I doubt we trade for an OF, especially one like Gardner. He’d bring nothing to the table that we don’t already have. An OF of Tabata/McCutchen/Presley should fare well moving forward. That OF lacks power, so I can’t see the Pirates trading for a non power corner OF bat (Gardner).
It’s more likely that if any deal is made for a position player, it’ll be for a backup middle IF (Jamey Carrol / Aaron Miles are both having good season in LA and could be had cheap) or a corner IF (See all the proposals of Pena, ARam, etc.)
by NOLABUCCO on Jul 13, 2011 8:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
and why would the yankees ever do it
They don’t make trades that don’t immediately help them. So unless you’re giving up Maholm and Hammer, don’t bother.
And if we're giving Hanrahan/Maholm,
why get Gardner, when Montero is there for the taking?
Because I guess people don’t realize the value of a 5 WAR player, if using WAR Gardner was more valuable to the yanks than AROD last year. An outfield of Tabs, Gardner and Cutch would have plus defenders at all 3 outfield positions. We could use a platoon of Overbay/ GFJ at first. Gardner value was show in this fangraphs article. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/brett-gardner-elite-player/
The yanks are desparate for starting pitching, would you take someone of basically Tabata caliber for say Brad Lincoln or Jmac?
Gardner is no elite player,
he’s an elite fielder, a good baserunner, and a light-hitting corner outfielder.
If you take him out of the shoebox stadium in the Bronx, his hitting stats may even go down. All you are really guaranteed is his defense, something that we don’t necessarily need.
this
funny how people forget about these little league fields like New York and Houston when they are promoting the idea of acquiring guys who’s numbers benefit from such parks.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
except…if you look at park factors Yankee stadium is not a hitters paradise but basically perfectly average.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor
Look I’m not saying Brett is the panacea of our problems and honestly Presley prob deserved to stay in the starting outfield, but I think Brett is a good player to pick up that wont be crazy expensive, he is definately better than say Torii Hunter. I think the Pirates offensive problems don’t come from the top of the order but the OBP wasteland that is Wood, Overbay, Harrison, Ronnie, and even chase.
The yankees are starting Phil Hughes who has a 10 ERA and Bartolo Colon who is 40 years old and lasted 2/3 of an inning. Other than CC they have a rotation that is rubbish. Im say the yankees are desperate enough to give up say Montero or a Starting pitcher and Gardner for one of our starters.
If that is our price
I think they will talk to the Twins about Slowey, O’s about Guthrie, White Sox about Jackson, and so on.
Side note:
Hughes threw 80 more innings last year, than he did the year before. 80! 80 innings!
Now he has a bad season, and they wonder if his arm is fatigued. Hmm. I wonder. Maybe that has something to do with him falling apart a little bit at the end of last year, too.
How can the Yankees not see a problem with pitching their young, future ace EIGHTY MORE INNINGS than he had the previous season? I know he was a reliever the year before, but even 50 innings would be a stretch.
i understand what youre saying...
but James Shields always throws a boatload of innings, and he went from one of the best pitchers to one of the worst pitchers, back to one of the best pitchers without being taken from the rotation.
maybe its really hard to be great all the time.
Shields' bad season wasn't because of workload, though
He did have a large jump in innings between 05 and 06, but he handled that fairly well.
Hughes, the Yankees former #1 prospect, and a guy that they saw as untouchable, was absolutely overworked last season. You could even see signs last year, when he started to decline down the stretch. At some point you have to skip him in the rotation, or move him to the ‘pen. The Yankees, who could have easily found themselves a spot-starter that a team wanted rid of (Z. Duke) who could pitch occasionally in Hughes’ place.
If I’m the Yankees, and I’ve saved Hughes from EVERY trade they’ve made since 2006, I would be extremely careful with how I handle Hughes. Instead, they allow him to increase his IP by EIGHTY. Ridiculous.
If you’re gonna look at a guy and say “what could he have been?” You at least want the reason for failure to be on him. Doc Gooden screwed himself up with coke, Mark Prior had poor mechanics, Phil Hughes… his team overpitched him. Let’s learn from this, NY.
I've thrown this out before
but I’m gonna repeat myself for the trade thread.
I hope they dangle Tabata as bait for some pitching. My thinking on this is similar to the one regarding Rasmus on Fangraphs.
Tabata has value still, and importantly, he has value as a CF, which he’ll never play for the Bucs, barring injuries. We should really be finding out whether teams will give up pitching for him. The team that matches up esp well is the Braves— Beachy may have performed his way out of trade consideration, but they have plenty more: Teheran, Minor, Delgado that are close enough to be legit returns for Tabata.
Tabata should be expendable
For the proper return.
Don’t actively shop him, but if he can net a Mike Minor I’d take that in a heart beat. Minor was a top 20 prospect in baseball entering the season.
I don’t see the Braves parting with Teahren/Delgado unless it’s in a package for a star player, which Tabata is not.
It’s amazing looking at the Braves, who arguably have the the best rotation in baseball #1-5, how much pitching they have. Good young pieces of that rotation – Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy + Good young pitching prospects near the Show – Minor, Delgado, Teahren, etc. + Good young bullpen arms – Kimbrel and Venters. They know how to build an organization.
by NOLABUCCO on Jul 13, 2011 8:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I have to Defend My man CRUSh tabata
He is 22, 22 yrs old. He can hit for average, he can play defense, he can lead off, play center feild.
and did i mention he is only 22? did you see him in april when he was healthy? he was amazing. the power is going to come. WRITE THIS DOWN when tabata is 25-27 yrs old he is going to be a 20-20 guy and tearing it up in the major leagues with good power. DO NOT TRADE JOSE TABATA and theres no way Neal does, no way. Also he is under control for 5 more years and atleast 2 more cheap as hell.
age of last winning season: 5
I'll agree it's unlikely they deal Tabata.
Regardless of his performance this year, they’re clearly thinking long term, as evidenced by the Alvarez’s current position in AAA until he sorts out his swing. Tabata is a part of the core of this team for the future, and he’s proven that he can play good baseball (even if it hasn’t been consistent to this point). Also, nothing would kill the Pirates recent surge in fan support than to give the appearance that they’re sellers, and Tabata is one of the better known players.
by cruisers202 on Jul 13, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
again, i dont want to trade him because I don't like him
But because he may be the best expendable chip we have. I’d have a real hard time turning down Beachy… would you consider trading him for Beachy
by BurgherKing on Jul 13, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Tabata alot
but for Beachy, yes, in a heartbeat. That said, I am in the camp of holding on to him. I think I’d rather dangle Presley and GFJ. While these two won’t be enough to get a Beachy, they can be a piece or centerpiece to acquire a different arm. Let me throw a name at you guys that may also be available, Francisco Liriano. Who knows what the Twins do the rest of the season, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that he might be a guy they would be willing to move for the right package. I know health is an issue with this guy, and he’s sporting a 5.06 era and 1.37 whip. But he’s a 27 y/o lefty starter that has shown he can be a good pitcher. And he is signed for 4.3 this year. If he’s available, do you go after him? And what kind of package would it take to get him?
The Braves are looking for a power-hitting OF,
not a Tabata.
Besides, Tabata seems to be a great clubhouse guy. He is always joking around, smiling, and having fun. Dealing him might hurt the team.
actually, over on talkingchop, i asked what players of ours they would be interested in in exchange for some of their prospects, they listed Cutch and Tabata
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
That's interesting.
I didn’t think the Braves were looking for that type of player. I thought they were looking for what McLouth was supposed to be, a good fielding (Gold Glove trickery), good hitting CF.
Well, stop that.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 16, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Red Sox have a Minor League
1B who currently has 19 double and 7 HRs – big fellow, 6’ 4" and prob blocked in the foreseeable future by Adrian Gonzalez. Still only 23 years old. Could be the next Mark Teixera – maybe use some of our (soon to be in 2012) excess MiLB pitching depth to get him?
What does that mean?!
I've heard about that guy.
I like the idea of picking him up using some of our pitchers who the organization doesn’t think have a future here, but I’m unsure of what we’d have to give up. Obviously picking up some sort of first baseman who has a long term future here would be ideal, unless Alvarez is viewed as the future of the position. Even so, it couldn’t hurt to have options at a position the system is weak at.
by cruisers202 on Jul 13, 2011 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair,
The Buccos have a 1B in AAA that has 25 doubles, 8 HRs, and is batting .321.
I'd love that
I’d finally get to watch them play because that’s the kind of acquisition that would make the Bucs contenders and really get them on primetime television.
Rockies listening on Ubaldo Jimenez
Might as well dream big.
Probable cost? I’d think Jameson Taillon, Jarek Cunningham, Starling Marte, and Robbie Grossman
We'll never give up taillon and marte in the same deal.
Nor should we. They’re two of our best prospects and making a deal like that would destroy the farm system for a player who’ll leave as soon as he can.
by cruisers202 on Jul 13, 2011 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
And also, fill a need?
Our starting pitching has been the mainstay of our success. It’s been mostly phenomenal (especially in comparison to years past). Not that it’ll stay that way, but with the players we have in the minors there’s a good chance they can keep it at an acceptable level over the next couple years (unless we trade away all our prospects).
by cruisers202 on Jul 13, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d love to get like Miguel Olivo at catcher, but with those salaries the next 2 years, Seattle might as well keep him. Much better behind the plate than Ryan.
There’s also Coco Crisp, who is a productive 1.7 WAR bat this season. We would move him to left and Tabata to right. I know Presley has been good, but Crisp is more proven for a playoff run.
Pena, Ludwick, Willingham, and Cuddyer also make sense.
Isn’t Olivo not even know as a good hitter either though?
"Ask yourself, "What would Ted do?" Then do the opposite."
- Barney Stinson
by Joseph Kirby on Jul 14, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Much better behind the plate than Ryan.
I’m not convinced this is true. His CS% is higher than Doumit’s (35% career, compared to Doumit’s 25%), but he also allows passed balls and wild pitches at a much higher rate (12.1 PB per 1000 defensive innings, compared to Doumit’s 9.8, and 46.1 WP per 1000 defensive innings, compared to Doumit’s 42.0).
Olivo’s actually led his league in passed balls four times. He’s currently third in the AL in 2011, with seven, three back on Saltalamacchia.
Hey Vlad, lay some knowledge on me...
Do you suppose that Kurt Suzuki’s performance has permanently gone south and might the Bucs already have the same player on the way in Tony Sanchez?
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Good question. I’m not at all sure what to expect from Suzuki going forward.
Pre-season, I had seen ‘07-’09 Suzuki as the type of player into which Sanchez might one day develop, but as bad as Sanchez has looked for the last two months, that may have been overly optimistic.
On draft day, I was concerned that Sanchez’s bat would be exposed against upper-minors competition. I hope this is just a blip, and that I was wrong, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t concerned.
have heard that we were talking to twins in trade talks? possibly about cuddeyer?
also saw that buster olney tweeted 6 to 7 teams intersted in carlos beltran? while i think that the giants have the edge to get him right now, I do believe the pirates are one of the teams pursuing him. I think if we get a big name it will be cuddeyer or beltran, although I believe pena is more reasonable and possible. Was also wondering where you all follow trade rumors? I have checked out mlbtraderumors.com but that is the only site I know of?
Mark Reynolds?
He fits a need, whether Pedro comes back or not. Reynolds has only played one game at 1B this year, and only has about 100 AB’s at first during his career, but his power bat may make this OK. I know the problem is the low low BA and the high strikeout rate, but something needs to give with the 1B situation. Also, as far as splits, his numbers (small sample size) are much better at 1B and he has some pretty good numbers at PNC Park too. Just a thought, and he’s signed through 2012 with an option for ‘13. Maybe he could play some third until Pedro shows he’s ready again, and then switch over to first and get the majority of time or split up with GFJ.
Proposal: Reynolds for Lincoln + Cunningham/Gorkys/Holt?
I'm not opposed to Reynolds, per se. . .
but I want no part of Lincoln, Cunningham or even Gorkys going to the Os for him.
I’d be ok with Holt though.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
What else?
I’d think the O’s would need something else in that package – which pitcher would you give up?
by BuccoNation15 on Jul 13, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Lorin + Holt, maybe?
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
You know, I say this totally off the cuff without having researched Reynolds, at all, really.
Just going off rep.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
No problem
I just took a look at his stuff after seeing his name in some rumors. I was wary because he’s primarily a third baseman and I really think Pedro will be back by the trade deadline at the latest, but his potential bat at first base is intriguing. He gets on base and he hits bombs, so if we can get him for a reasonable package, it would be a good addition for the second half and the next year or so.
by BuccoNation15 on Jul 13, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Giving up just about anything for Reynolds is too much
He’s all the things people like to harp on Alvarez for—too many strikeouts, bad defense at 3rd—magnified
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
why no rumors about these guys?
Billy Butler, Paul Konerko, Todd Helton. Please tell me!
Not Sure if Serious
Butler has been talked about plenty in potential trade threads. I like him, as anything is an upgrade over Overbay, but I would not give up any significant to obtain him. His glove is atrocious.
Konerko isn’t going anywhere. Chi (AL) has vastly underperformed this year and are only 5 games out of the Central with no dominant team. They’re not gonna trade their MVP candidate.
Helton is having a great year, but getting up there in age. Maybe Clint’s relationship with him could help, but I would think he wants to retire a Rockie. I’m not sure Colorado is sellers just yet. I’d be interested in him if he were made available.
by NOLABUCCO on Jul 14, 2011 12:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
of course the Rockies would love to get rid of Helton's contract...
the question is, can they?
by white angus on Jul 14, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Helton reworked his contract...
…so his salaries are 4.9 million next year and 5 million in 2013. The Rockies owe him 13 million between 2014 and 2023 at 3% interest.
Helton turns 40 in August 2013 but frankly a 40 year old Todd Helton will still be a better value at 5 million than Lyle Overbay is right now . I’d do it if the price isn’t excessive.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
doesnt Helton have 10/5 stature?
maybe he doesnt want to come to Pitt?
by white angus on Jul 14, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
99.99999% chance he doesn't
Just in theory I don’t think it’d be an awful move
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Helton
I don’t think Helton is going anywhere. Like Jeter with the Yankees, he’s a local legend and so has got far more value for the Rockies than he’d ever bring back in a trade.
The only way I see him leaving
is for one last run for a competitor, and I’m not sure he’s even do that.
by Wizard of Woz on Jul 14, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed...
unless they put a major league team in Knoxville (Helton was also a punter at Tennessee), he’s not going anywhere until he retires.
and quarterback…he was actually ahead of some guy named Manning on the depth chart until he screwed up his knee.
i feel bad for Helton
if it wasnt for that knee, he could have had a lucrative career.
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Charlie.. your'e the Man !!
Thank You; Thank You; for getting this all on one thread (that I can now avoid)
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
by michaelbro8 on Jul 14, 2011 3:39 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hanley Ramirez
Think about it, Cedeno isn’t very good and it’s not like the Bucs have a great SS prospect waiting to take over(Not that high on Chase). Ramirez and Florida don’t seem to be on the best of terms. He is already locked up. The only question would be if they could swing a deal without including someone like Taillion, Chase/Marte/ and two pitching prospects like Owens or ZVR or Cain. I would be fine with replacing Marte with Tabata or even include Allie in a deal like Chase/Allie/ and lesser prospect or two.
Not Enough
I would absolutely trade Chase + Owens + ZVR/Cain in a heartbeat for Hanley…if only the Marlins would take a package like that. Just because he’s having a down year doesn’t mean we can throw something at Florida to take HanRam off their hands. He would probably cost 2 of our top 5 prospects at the very least, and that’s just not getting done. Good target, I just don’t think we’ll do what it takes.
by BuccoNation15 on Jul 14, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Would you do an Allie/Marte/Chase and a fringe prospect for him? I would have think about it but the fact that he locked up til 2014 is a huge factor in doing a deal like that.
by SpamHanrahan on Jul 14, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I would just stay away from Hanley altogether
Don’t know what he would bring would be worth what he’d cost, particularly with d’Arnaud and Jordy Mercer in the system.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
I am #1 in the d'Arnaud fan club
and I love watching the dude play.
That being said, Hanley is an absolute stud. Chase’s absolute ceiling is probably equivalent to a really down year for Hanley. If you can get a guy like that in the system, d’Arnaud and Mercer are immaterial.
Also, let’s not forget that if either Mercer or d’Arnaud really blossom, you could always put the better hitting one of them at 2B, shift Walker to 3B, and put Pete at 1B. (assuming they weren’t part of the trade that got us Hanley in the first place, obviously.)
One of Allie/Marte/Chase?
Are you saying one of those guys plus a fringe prospect? If so, then yes, I’d do it. Guys, let’s be serious here. I don’t want to cite past performance and fantasy stats and all that, but in the past three years (discounting the first half of this year), Hanley would have been one of the most difficult players in the game to pry away, for any price. Now, we’re talking about getting him for a package including a fringe prospect? This is a 27-year old SS who AVERAGED 26 HR, 83 RBI, 106 R, .314 BA and .916 OPS from 2008-10. He is just entering his prime, and he’s expensive, but at least he’s already under contract. This is a superstar, and if you can get him for one top prospect and another guy, it’s an easy buy.
by BuccoNation15 on Jul 14, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I've given Hanley some thought too
but decided it’s not worth pursuing.
For starters, he has never been a good defender. These days he is a terrible defender and a significant downgrade defensively. He simply needs to switch positions. That’s a problem right there because by all accounts in his own mind he is a brilliant SS. One with a huge ego and a bad attitude at that. He will whine and sulk if asked to play anywhere else.
His bat prior to this season is simply amazing for a SS, but at another position like 1B or OF, while still very good, simply doesn’t stand out quite as much.
Big contract. If he rebounds to his 2009 level or close to it he is totally worth it. If not you have an expensive, under performing SS who sucks defensively, and has attitude problems.
Even with his terrible half season, his good but not great 2010, his terrible defense, his attitude problems you would still have to give the house for him. The owner still loves him, the fish are moving to a new stadium next season, and he is still considered a young, elite player (for good reason). The pirates would probably have to give up half of their top 10, the top half at that.
So, all things considered, I think you have to give up the idea of getting him. It would involve giving up too much and taking on too much risk.
by BillBraskie on Jul 14, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's to Bill Braskie!!!!!
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
by Slick1 on Jul 14, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Once again
I think if the Bucs are really gonna make a push for a SS, put together a package to get Hardy from the O’s. He can’t possibly cost more than Reyes or Hanley.
He can’t possibly cost more than Reyes or Hanley.
Well no. He’s also not nearly as good as either.
I like Hardy too, but your statement is the equivalent of “Let’s buy the Honda! It can’t possibly cost more than the Porsche or the Lamborghini.”
Fair enough
but just because you could afford a Lambo or Porsche, it doesn’t mean you should. The better value to me at this point is Hardy. Hardy is a good year, comparable to the other two. Nice avg/power numbers/ and OBP. And he won’t cost you the mint of prospects that Ramirez and Reyes would. Who knows, maybe you even extend him.
You go ahead and buy your European sports car. I think I want more bang for my buck. The production that Hardy brings, both offensively and defensively, seem to be right within my price range.
I agree with everything here
I think Hardy — if we could get him — is probably the better value.
Just pointing out that judging them just by cost doesn’t tell the whole story.
It does not tell the whole story...
but unfortunately for a team like the Pirates who cannot add wins regardless of cost, net value is extremely important.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
AAAIIIEEEE!
.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 14, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
possibly the most random comment ever on BD
unless there is a meme i’m unaware of
He once scissor-kicked Angela Lansbury!
I suggest you educate yourself.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/69477/saturday-night-live-bill-brasky-airport-bar
I generally agree with this.
The idea of getting Hanley is great. Although for all the reasons you said I don’t think you can do it. He would make 1/5th of our payroll, isn’t great defensively, and you’d have to give up a crapload. Not worth it, let’s see if Chase or Jordy pans out..
No chance
they are opening a new stadium next year, there last chance to try and draw some fans and Hanley is the face of the franchise. He and Josh Johnson are the attractions. No chance they move him, especially at his low point.
That's precisely why...
…unless they get a ridiculous return, I don’t see them really moving Sanchez or Nolasco either.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
I don't think those two are on the same level
as players or in popularity. I think they would simply want guys that will be ready this or next year for 1 or the other. My speculation was also from actual reports. Mcdonald, Marte, Wilson, Lincoln could all be appealing. They seem to re-build their pen every year but even a guy like Resop or Veras could be attractive. And yeah I know they used to have both.
i agree
they can always put Morrison back on 1B and ship Sanchez out for some help at other positions.
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Has there ever been a bigger win-win trade?
November 24, 2005: Traded by the Boston Red Sox with Jesus Delgado, Harvey Garcia and Anibal Sanchez to the Florida Marlins for Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell and Guillermo Mota.
Probably not...
Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez for Joe Carter and Robby Alomar worked pretty well for both clubs though the Pads never got to the series. Jeff Kent to the Giants for Matt Williams to Cleveland worked out well too. Some other good ones but I think the one you mentioned is probably the best.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
He didn't forget
Responding to a post titled “Hanley Ramirez” he says “Traded by the Boston Red Sox with…”
The Hanley was implied! :)
Andre Either
With the Dodgers financial situation, and Ned Colletti (Being Neal Huntington’s best friend ;) ). Are they going to entertain the Thought of giving him up? Would a package of Alex Presley, Starling Marte and Colton Cain be too much for Either? He under contract until 2013.
Also whats anyones thoughts on Rafael Furcal? I know hes been injured. But he shouldn’t cost that much to acquire. Salary Relief and Pitching prospect like Diego Moreno or Tim Alderson would get it done IMO.
Not Marte
I would do Presley + Cain/other A-AA pitcher for Ethier, no question. Even though I like Presley, you don’t get a chance at a player of Ethier’s caliber in their prime every day. That being said, I do value Marte pretty highly and would not want to include him unless we got pitching back too.
by BuccoNation15 on Jul 14, 2011 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Ethier could be moved to 1B...
would take at least Marte to get him, which i am fine with.
by white angus on Jul 14, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
That's a pretty interesting thought.
But the guy is sorta the reverse of Adam LaRoche… he’s a first half performer, and I’d bet his best of the season is behind him.
Ethier is a platoon player
He cannot hit left-handers – at all. His OPS split this year makes the point: against R-handers .339/.422/.502 for an OPS of .924 and against L-handers .242/.282/.368 for an OPS of .650.
Also, his power has disappeared over the past two years. He is on pace for 13 HR’s this season.
No thanks.
Management Speculation
Hope it’s okay to post this here as it is really just a random thought…
I know that the logical explanation for NH not being extended yet is that they don’t want to devote time to that process until after the trading deadline and then the draft signing deadline. However, I’m starting to wonder if maybe NH isn’t so sure about wanting to be re-upped with the Buccos. Perhaps he has unrealistic monetary expectations or feels he has earned a shot at being a GM with a larger market club.
Just thinking out loud…
Good day.
Hey
The Pirates once traded a catcher for a manager so why not a GM for GM swap? But if we’re taking Cashman, they’re going to have to throw in Beltran AND Reyes.
Can a GM trade himself?
Third Base
There are not any third basemen we could pick up that I like. The elites are all on contenders, and the rest are about the same or worse than what the Pirates currently field. However, I did not investigate players currently on the DL. There might be a half-year rental available who is getting healthy, but I doubt it.
Not Alvarez
Pedro Alvarez is not playing better than who the Pirates have playing right now. If he was, then he would not be working on his swing in AAA.
All his value is in his bat. If he can hit, then he brings something. If he cannot hit, he needs to go back to the minors until he does hit. I would not be surprised if he stayed down until late August if he continues to struggle hitting. I would not be surprised if he was called back within 20 days to preserve his last option, either.
Regardless, I do not think he is the SHORT TERM answer. Hopefully, Alvarez will show more next year.
by RafInVirginia on Jul 14, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
In that case
I can think of another 3B getting healthy, mashes lefties, suspect defense. And another, good D, somewhat erratic, fast, young. Names rhyme with Fierce Rhino. We don’t need a 3B.
I, as well, was lost
Pierce is the first. Rhino and d’Arnoud is a stretch, if that’s what Mr. E was going for. Maybe its just a Mystery.
by Wizard of Woz on Jul 15, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
dang, i didnt even realize it was 2 different players
i searched the rosters all morning for a player named Pierce DeLino
Brandon Laird (NYY) or Juan Francisco (CIN)
Blocked prospects at 3B, what would it take to acquire one of them? I prefer Laird, maybe a package of Pribanic + Beimel + Watts gets it done
by 2010 will be the year on Jul 14, 2011 9:39 AM EDT reply actions
Alright have Alvarez as your teams 3B of the future, why the need for another 3B?
"Ask yourself, "What would Ted do?" Then do the opposite."
- Barney Stinson
by Joseph Kirby on Jul 14, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Already*
"Ask yourself, "What would Ted do?" Then do the opposite."
- Barney Stinson
by Joseph Kirby on Jul 14, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I just have some serious reservations about Pedro
by 2010 will be the year on Jul 16, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Reading through this will be exhausting.
I’m a fan of no new fanposts, but I was able to ignore 95% of them and focus on the 5% of good fanposts…
… I now have to filter through hundreds of nonsense comments.
I agree with this
There’s nothing Charlie can do, but trade spec needs it’s own home, like FanShots and FanPosts, but not a single thread.
I really enjoy trade talk this year
as long as it stays within the realm of possibility.
I’m probably quick to jump the gun here as those good fanposts will still be out there too.
I guess if you want to try to talk about acquiring MVP candidates, perennial all-stars, and CY Young pitchers… please stay here.
I agree. 95% of thse posts are garbage. So many of these people have nothing better to do with their lives than concoct ridiculous trade ideas.
Sorry some of us find this kind of thing fun
My goal in life is now to have a life as fulfilling as yours. Thank you for inspiring me.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Apologies
But it’s very tough to listen to talk about trades that would devestate our minor league system considering it took 18 years to actually be able to play decent baseball.
I agree it’s fun to dream, but getting a Hanley Ramirez would be more of a nightmare long term.
Oh I agree
I try to keep my ideas/proposals at least within the realm of possibility, even remote.
You’ll never hear me say ZOMG TAILLON AND ALLIE AND SANCHEZ FOR PUJOLS I know trading for guys like Jose Reyes is in the realm of fantasy. I know Amaro isn’t going to be calling NH tomorrow and offering Roy Halladay for Zack von Rosenberg and Matt Diaz.
But personnel stuff—prospects, drafts, trades, roster moves—is an interest of mine that cuts across baseball, football and hockey. (I have interests, not hobbies, because hobbies cost money, to paraphrase George Carlin) I enjoy it, it’s silly fun and I get to congratulate myself when I’m right about something :)
I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea and the people who really don’t know what they’re talking about are MADDENING, but it just bothers me to be told I have an empty life because I like doing this, you know?
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Maybe you're part of that 5%
considering you don’t lead to the ridiculous side.
For me it’s not empty commenting… I’m getting paid right now… ha.
Rosterbation
It’s what fans do. I like the idea of having them all in this thread. It’s not like I can’t tell which posts are new as they are highlighted every time I open this thread up.
Faith
While it’s plenty of fun to concoct fantasy league trades here, I have faith that NH isn’t about to abandon the long-term plan. This is part of where all the previous administrations went wrong. They couldn’t formulate a long-term plan and stick to it.
Hope It's Not Me
Guys, I apologize if my comments are seen as this fantasy land as well. Really, the whole Hanley thing was just responding to the poster who brought it up, as a way of trying to get some reality into it. I’m much like Raybin in that I’m very interested in the personnel aspect of baseball, as well as our other sports here in Pittsburgh, and believe these discussions at least show the optimism of our town right now. That being said, I could do without the posts/talk show phone calls saying that we can offer fringe prospects for all-stars. I’d like to think most people on this site know we aren’t getting Ramirez/Ethier/Kemp/Pujols/David Wright anytime soon, but I’ll suffer through that stuff in order to read all others’ insightful thoughts.
by BuccoNation15 on Jul 14, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think Hanley is pure fantasyland
We always cite the Yankees as the team that you can’t consider using normal logic, because of their wealth. But the Marlins are pretty unique too, in that they’ve shown a ridiculous trend of blowing the whole thing up more often than anyone. Add in the fact that they’re not going to catch Philly or Atlanta this year, and I think it’s feasible.
Obviously it’s a much different type of the trade than the Ludwick/Pena stuff that’s been flying around, and I don’t think it’s likely, but it’s at least worth considering.
It’s complete fantasy for this franchise.
MAYBE the yankees of the worlds could find a way for this to happen, but the prospect cost would ruin the Pirates.
Some Reality
I just heard a caller on Vinnie & Cook suggest that the Pirates really need to add a big name…and he goes on to propose acquiring Prince Fielder for “some combination of” Paul Maholm, Garrett Jones, Diaz, Overbay and Doumit.
Point is: as much as some people here delve into fantasyland, at least we don’t have these types of guys posting truly ridiculous ideas like the caller above. We should count our blessings.
by BuccoNation15 on Jul 14, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
As a person who
gave up on all other professional sports two years ago to follow baseball only (Pirates), that sounds like the old generalized sports fan me… that sir is a die-hard football guy thinking he knows something about baseball.
Counter-point — I come here to avoid those types of posts. It has been, by FAR, the best Pirates forum because it avoids talking about outlandish, non-informed pieces…. heck it’s been two years of following nothing but Pirates baseball operations to feel somewhat informed enough to contribute here.
Apologies, but I’ve come to expect a lot from this site.
That was my point
CB, I think we’re on the same page. I agree with you on the general caliber of posts here, with the exception of a few. All I was saying is that this site seems to be devoid of the ridiculous thoughts that some of these callers seem to have on the radio shows. I’ve been following this site for years as well and just recently began to post, so I completely respect your comment about being informed and feel that I have that capability as well.
by BuccoNation15 on Jul 14, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahhhhh... just bickering
Not meant in your direction. I agree your posts are informed, I’m just grumpy.
Got it - no problem at all
Like with most written things, tone is hard to decipher. I"m just glad to have other knowledgeable Pirates fans to discuss things with – it’s been way too long. And we can all be a little grumpy during the workday.
by BuccoNation15 on Jul 14, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Really. Ruin the franchise.
I’m sorry, but just for the sake of debate let’s say NH throws caution to the wind and seriously overpays for Hanley.
What would we consider a serious overpay? Something like: Tabata, d’Arnaud, Marte, Allie? Hell throw in ZVR too. I think we can all agree that would be a pretty big overpay.
And yet, would the franchise be ruined? Presley keeps playing instead of Tabata, Pearce/Harrison/Wood cover the right side until Cedeno and Pedro are back. Maybe the minor league guys become superstars for Florida, but maybe not. Remember that the odds are stacked against even the best prospects. Losing Allie is definitely offset by us having Taillon, Cole, and Cain having a nice year.
Okay, I’m certainly not proposing this trade and I really doubt that a Hanley deal gets done, I’m just saying that such a trade WOULD be possible without “ruining” the Pirates.
That's trading the good side
of an entire draft class (maybe 2) for one player that costs a huge amount in salary when comparing total salary.
Not only would it set us way back prospect wise, it would also hamper the Pirates ability to ever add without subsequently subtracting Hanley, and it would hurt flexibility to expand the young core.
The Pirates are still not a top farm system… probably not even top half. We have to remember that just because they actually have prospects now, that they’re in now way expenable in mass… MAYBE deal one guy like a Marte, but you can’t go all Littlefield.
The Athletics are falling apart
And it’s pretty clearly time for a major rebuild in Oakland.
So do you think the Pirates could an attractive enough package of prospects for Gio Gonzalez?
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
There was some talk about the D-Backs targeting him
I personally don’t beleive their farm system to be superior to ours, so you would have to assume that we could match whatever they put on the table.
My question is if we could hypothetically land Gio, should we dangle Maholm to acquire a bat?
Twitter: @Filar
Brett Anderson to Tommy John, may not be back to 2013...
Just announced.
That may make Beane want to really hold onto him so the A’s have something behind Trevor Cahill.
Or maybe, Beane just says “screw it”, writes off 2012 as a loss, and ships out a couple players like Gonzalez who can bring nice prospects in return and gets ready for 2013.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Shame for Anderson,
But how does Beane ALWAYS have top-flight pitching staffs?
Hudson-Haren-Harden-Zito-Mulder
Anderson-Cahill-Gonzalez-Brandon McCarthy-(and possibly)Tyson Ross
Beane’s “moneyball” system might not work well anymore, but he has some great scouts.
Thought it over a bit more...
….and I decided Gonzalez isn’t going anywhere barring a major overpay of the sort the Bucs can’t afford to make.
He’s just entering his first arbtration year, so he’s under team control until 2015. He doesn’t turn 26 until September and his stuff is ri-damn-diculous. GMs don’t send those guys away without SERIOUS compensation.
I think it at a minimum it’d take Marte, Allie, a pitcher from the current rotation, Cain and maybe a guy like Cunningham or Holt. At LEAST.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
I mentioned this above
but what does everyone think about making a move to get Francisco Liriano? Relatively young-27, 4.3 mil this year, and is a guy I think they would consider moving.
Ooof, no way
Liriano’s had 2 brilliant seasons (2006, 2010), one average (2008) and two crap (2009, 2011). He’s too inconsistent for me to want him anywhere near the rotation.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Hit post too soon...
….just wanted to add: when he’s on, he’s ON, but when he’s off his game, holy crap he’s a disaster. Don’t need that type right now
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
change of scenery might do him well
despite his struggles, Liriano would be the Pirates ACE
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I was kinda
thinking along those same lines. Adding him to this rotation would be a real good move, IMO.
Liriano
Maholm
Karstens
Coreia
Morton
Looks like a real solid rotation.
McDonald could be the 6th. Add Lincoln for spot starts if needed. Not bad.
Or trade Maholm at his peak
no reason to limit to buying. He could replenish what we may have to lose bringing in a bat, while not really subtracting from the rotation.
would the pirates rather pay $10MM for Maholm 2/3s of that with Liriano?
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I am going less off of salary
and more on peak performance. We’d be buying low on Liriano, and selling high on Maholm.
I really can’t fathom Mahoml having any more value than he does right now.
If we're selling high on pitchers...
…I’d be calling everyone seeing what Karstens’s value is
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
True
But I’d much rather them sell Maholm at peak value, with 6 months left on a contract, before he becomes very overpriced.
Karstens is still pretty darn cheap for even mediocre success going forward… but if someone wants him, have at it!
Nutting is too cheap to swallow his gum. He has simply set it aside for later enjoyment.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
What don't you get?
Swallowing his gum means he’d have to buy more.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 16, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
not true
he would wait for it to pass thru his bowels and then re-use like any good “green” person would
But, seriously, he is projected (Fangraphs) to finish the season with a 3.0 WAR. That is worth something like $15M on the open market. I’m not a big fan of WAR but I do find it useful in determining the monetary value of a player. If he can put up a 2.0 WAR next year he would be worth the $10M.
Here is a quote from Fangraphs:
This year Maholm earns $5.75 million, a value he has exceeded in each of his five full major league seasons, in terms of WAR dollars. The concern is not with his 2011 salary, but rather his 2012 option, which comes in at $9.75 million. That is right around his projected market value.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
What about Ichiro?
Seattle is looking to move him, I think he could help our need in RF
by PiratesFanSince1980 on Jul 14, 2011 12:03 PM EDT reply actions
I don't see that working out well
Ichiro’s numbers are trending downward pretty quickly, and although he was never a big power guy, it’s almost entirely singles at this point. We’re actually fairly well stocked with quick singles hitters at this point. And at 37, he’s not able to beat out those infield grounders as well as he used to.
Add to the fact that a move from Seattle (where he’s a local legend) to Pittsburgh (where there’s not much of a Japanese population at all) might be pretty mentally distracting on the guy, and it just seems like a recipe for disaster.
Power
Ichiro could hit for more power if he wanted to. He’s known for putting on very impressive displays in batting practice, for example. However, he seems extremely dedicated to collecting as many hits as possible rather than hitting for more power or, for that matter, taking more walks. I doubt any manager would be able to convince him to change his ways.
maybe?
Dude’s also 35. Serious props for being one of the best hitters of his generation and an amazing athlete, but eventually time catches up with everybody.
37 actually
At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter because everything I’ve read on him says he’s very set in his ways and not going to change. And he’s almost certainly going to veto any proposed trade anyway. He’s a great player and I wouldn’t be surprised if he manages to get back to .300, if not still make 200 hits for the year, but it just ain’t happening and likely isn’t a great fit anyway.
no prospects?
IMO i think that if we are making a trade to make a run at the playoffs that we should NOT trade for a prospect. the idea of gearing up for a run is to get established major leaguers. right? someone who is a proven player and can step in and contribute asap. so while i won’t oppose bringing in a top prospect for the future, we can not get a guy from AAA and throw him in the big league lineup and expect him to contribute. we must get an established guy.
we do not need more rookies
the idea is to acquire proven major league talent. there is no question as to that concept
We need talent and production
who cares if it’s a rookie or my grandpa. I understand we would all feel more comfortable with a proven commodity but my point was we are already leaning on tons of young players. The good thing about acquiring more is they are cheap and will be around for more than just this year.
Rodriguez at catcher
I have no facts to back this up, but it seems like washington would be willing to rent pudge to us for the rest of the year?
quite the reverse actually
washington has shown a marked disinclination to moving any of their players without extracting a heavy price…
I think that was just with how far away from the TD it was
The closer we get, the more willing they will be. That said, Pudge is on the DL and isn’t better than Doumit anyways.
not with Pudge specifically
i think that was the deal with Dunn last year too. Why they wouldnt have taken Dan Hudson for Dunn still beats me!
Tim Williams at Pirates Prospects
has three posts up on what SPs, RPs and Hitters might be of interest to other clubs. I think his evaluations of our guys are realistic, with mayb a slight bias toward pessimism. My opinion: First, the farm is in much better shape than it was, but — with mayb three exceptions we think are untouchable (Taillon, Marte and Heredia and let’s face it, who’s going to trade a productive major leaguer for a 16 year-old in his first year of professional ball) — would probably require quantity rather than quality to engage a trading partner’s interest. What do we get in return? Debt.
Second, we’ve come this far with the guys we started the season with, while battling injuries and underperformance. My guess is that Neal and Clint may be of a mind to ride this out until or unless a potential trading partner comes to them with a proposal that knocks their socks off.
All that being said, and just to join in the spirit of fun, David Wright is due to rejoin the Mets sometime around July 22 according to espn. Regardless of what they say publicly, I think the Mets are shedding salary. If they offered Wright for Pedro, I’d at least think about it.
Lino Donoso
thought about it…nope
Based on years of control and ceiling I think we need to keep Pedro. The only thing Wright has over Pedro is defense and some solid years in the bigs. Pedro has years of control as well as more power than Wright. Those are the types of shortsighted moves that I believe would revert the Bucs back into the same situation of the past 18 years. I know you just said you would think about it which is reasonable but the conclusion has to be no.
by nagihcimwolves50 on Jul 14, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
He's not even a good defender anymore
He’s also not the hitter he was at age 25. He’s barely worth his contract, even if you got him to agree to an extension of 2 more years or something.
OK
probly not gonna happen anyway.
Lino Donoso
A name I haven't heard too much about...
…Edwin Jackson.
The Sox are in 3rd at 44-48, 5 games back of the Tigers for first. They may not consider themselves sellers just yet, but if they stumble over the next two weeks, it’s conceivable they may throw in the towel.
Jackson’s ERA is 4.30, but his xFIP is 3.31. He’s been getting hosed by bad play behind him. Additionally, his K/9 rate is holding steady for him at 7.76 while he’s on track for a career low in BB/9 at 2.87.
Could be a good rental for the rotation, not to mention there’s at least fair odds he could be re-signed to a reasonable deal come the off-season.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Kila Ka'aihue
Was not given much of a chance in KC. Could catch lighting in a bottle for about a cup of coffee. Possibly a budget version of Carlos Pena. This guy absolutely mashes AAA. Much younger than Overbay as well. If the experiment fails there is always Garrett Jones who is also an upgrade over Overbay so either way we win. Gotta love it!
Pittsburgh gets: Kila Ia’aihue
KC gets: A bucket of baseballs
I think would be worth taking a flyer on.
in the offseason. Not really a guy you would get to help you right away, but somebody worth picking up and seeing if he can win a spot out of spring training.
283 ABs is nowhere near enough for a guy who hits AAA so well.
actually, Ka'aihue was given a few chances
ive watched royals games for a few years now; the curves and sliders really make him look bad at the plate.
the pena comparison is good except kila isnt the defender that Pena can be… plus, pena can hit mistake pitches. kila hasnt really done much with MLB pitchers. see jeff clement.
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like a good offseason move
If the Pirates roll with what they have, and/or bring in a true rental, why not??
Even if they go another route with the 25 man, Kila would be a great addition to see if they can remedy his issues. Prototypical NH.
with all due respect, how many of those players that came in, with those issues, that actually turned the corner for the better?
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
i'll give you Tabata. but Kila was never the prospect that Tabata used to be.
almost every other reclamation project is either gone or still very much a project.
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Morton maybe? Cedeno? Heck, I think Millidge proved to have some value as well.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
i dont think Morton was really highly thought of, no insult to him.
cedeno is on his third major league team and next year will be his fourth.
Milledge and value? he helped us get Hanrahan i suppose.
mcdonald is still a project. resop is working out fine though. hanrahan is actually a failed starter AND closer. glad the Nats were impatient with him.
I think Milledge would have made a fine fourth outfielder this year. I’d prefer him over Diaz. I’m content with Ronny at SS for now. Maybe I’m wrong but I though Morton was pretty highly thought of. Or at least his “electric stuff” was considered valuable.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Morton didn't produce in the low minors
He was a 3rd round pick out of HS but he’d been around forever and never done much until he got to AAA. There, he put up two dominant half seasons and had the good stuff but had failed in his only ML action. He is really pretty unique.
milledge thought he was more than a 4th outfielder.
now hes a 6th outfielder. Diaz is doing okay. we didnt sign him to set the world on fire.
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Saw Stanton from FL....
…..Might be available… Any thoughts?
by PiratesFanSince1980 on Jul 14, 2011 8:15 PM EDT reply actions
He was the #3 prospect in baseball last year
He’s done nothing but drop bombs since and he’s 21. I could be wrong but I don’t think their front office is that stupid.
They offered him for Ozzie Guillen last winter...
I know they’re obsessed with Guillen, but still. They might be THAT stupid.
Even worse is Kenny Williams, who turned the deal down. What a mistake that was, especially since he’s now considering firing Ozzie.
Andre Ethier and Michael Cuddyer
Andre Ethier in RF
Michael Cuddyer at 1b
Ethier for idk say Presley, J. Wilson, Cain and (Cunningham, Mercer or Holt, choose 1)?
- Sell high on Presley, give up a potential SP/RP, Cain is a ways down the road that by the time he would be in the bigs ’14, he can be replace in the system. One of the other INF as it doesnt seem like Furcal is going to be around forever.
Cuddyer for idk say Lincoln, Hague, (Cunningham, Mercer, or Holt, choose 1)?
-Twins value pitching, and the Pirates have the option to return all 5/5 starters from this year plus Ohlie, plus Owens, plus Wilson (if not traded) plus a FA…lol etc etc, so Lincoln could be expendable. Maybe im over evaulating Cuddyer but I would assume a major league ready hitter it seems in Hague plus an INF prospect would help beef up the pot.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
heh according to BBR Cuddyer has never had a tWAR above 2.1. Maybe I am over evaluating, but then again come deadline time, sometimes you gotta overpay…
I would also be willing to make a better offer for Ethier, he is signed through 2011 and arb eligible in 2012, so its not like we couldnt be able to keep him past this year.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
just rosterbating man, not everything has to be exact science as to why or why not we should get someone. just trying to have some fun, and in my opinion i would like to acquire Ethier, that is all.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Well, I’m with you there. I just get confused at so many people wanting an OF or 3B. I think we should only focus on 1B or SP and possibly LHR depending on how Beimel looks.
eh if were talking offense, i want a 1b and a RF with more “pop”/power potential than what Tabata and Presley bring to the table.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
I looked at Cuddyer/Pena pitch strength
and both are fits, but not for the same top of the order.
IF Pirates roll out a Tabata/McCutchen/Presley OF & 1/2/3 top of the order then you go Pena as he mashes fastballs. With all that speed he’ll see a ton.
IF Pirates roll with what they had the first half of the season and bat Walker second I could see Cuddyer as he hits breaking pitches at above average.
put Ethier on 1B, since hes not a good fielder in the outfield
then you keep the OF built with the speed of Presley/Cutch/Tabata
run, run and run s’more
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
the top of the lineup could be this:
Tabata
Presley
McCutchen
thats a nice right/left/right balance at the top of the order. all 3 guys have gap power and better than average speed. very similar to the cardinals when they had a coleman/mcgee/herr top of the lineup, except we have less speed but more power. the cleanup hitter would be our Jack Clark… Pedro Alvarez maybe??? Ethier at 1B would relieve him of defensive pressure. Billy Butler could be another option, but ive overhyped that before.
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Pedro would greatly benefit
in the 4 spot with that 1-2-3 as a fast ball hitter.
I too have mirrored hopes for first base, but I really hope they go hitter rather than masher.
Does anyone think that Jamey Carroll is an upgrade to any infield position? He has been tossed around and I think he might get labeled with the “Scrappy” label but he is a 111+ wRC+ this year and produced 2.5 WAR last year which is quite good for a middle infielder. He seems like a low risk trade that might benefit the pirates. His defense is down this year but he has always statistically been a plus infielder. I realize that this is not the sexy pick, but he wouldn’t cost the farm.
I expect a Sunday night deal
Right after we sweep the Disastros in Houston and claim a three way tie for 1st place. We return home to start this torrid stretch of games against real contenders:
ARAM, C Pena, and fringe Prospect to the Bucs for Lincoln, Marte, Harrison, Overbay & Diaz (Cubs flip Diaz to Phillies for fringe prospect)
No money trades hands. ARAM immediately signs a three year extension at his current yearly rate. Pedro stays in AAA and plays winter ball to finally start working at 1st base as the everyone and their brother has been clamoring about. Pena walks but is offered arbitration and we get a draft pick out of it. Ohlendorf comes in when either one of our starters falters or goes down to injury. Electric Stuff catches big fire down the stretch. Either LH Owens or LH Wilson steps up big in the 2nd half AAA season and give us reason to let Maholm walk after the year is over. Cole and Bell end up signing for gauds of money and Cutch wins the MVP (signing an 8 year extension in November). The Pirates win the pennant over the Braves and fall to the Giants in 6 games. Nutting says I told you so.
Totally
I mean, how can you win the pennant and lose to the Giants in the same playoffs?
Everything else is fact.
by DisplacedAsian on Jul 15, 2011 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions
… Smizik writes an article berating the front office for not getting Pujols for the playoffs. Claims playoff revenue is going straight to Seven Springs
by Wizard of Woz on Jul 15, 2011 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions
as well they should
those slopes arent going to pack themselves…
oh, wait..
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
stick with the plan
We can’t bring in a 3rd baseman like ARam. Pedro is too important to our future and this would show a complete lack of faith. I would bring Pearce back and play him at 3rd until (hopefully) Pedro finds his swing. At 1st base, I would consider Loney or Pena as long as we can stick with the plan and not give up too much. Honestly, I wouldn’t mind sticking with what we have, going with a six man rotation, and giving Hague some innings at 1st.
Absolutely
no gawd damn Loney, we’d be better off not even playing a 1st baseman. Utter freeking rubbish.
I mean seriously, if you wanna talk Loney we might as well call Kenny Williams and see if Big Donkey is available. That is if you want to take on that contract @ 4 years/$56M (2011-14). Perhaps a change of venue would do him well, defensively his glove…well he wears a frying pan rather than a glove. Probably would cost a Tuna sammich at this point.(Snark)
Now to be serious, we probably should stand pat nothing out there is looking all that hot to me. Sometime the best trade is the one you don’t make.
I agree. I hope the Bucs stick with what they have for the rest of the season unless another team calls with an offer they can’t refuse. They have gotten this far with the current players and that’s pretty good considering all the injuries. I don’t think they’re serious pennant contenders this year and with the wealth of talent in the minors it would be dumb to move some of them for a so-so rental for the rest of this season.
Play it out, see how some of the ’spects do in Sept. and figure out what to do with Malhom, Doumit and Snyder come the end of the season.
Also, EXTEND CUTCH!!!
The Bucs do not have a “wealth of talent” in the minors. They have a wealth of not-that-bad prospects.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
some teams have 1 or 2 fantastic prospects and then a huge/steep dropoff afterwards...
pirates, after signing Cole and hopefully Bell, will be front loaded with Ace like pitchers, a handful of above average hitters, and a glut or quantity of “average” prospects waiting in the wings.
theres nothing wrong with having an abundance in not-that-bad prospects. some of them turn into very good major leaguers.
by white angus on Jul 15, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
It just seems that with all of the trade talk that people seem to think we have a bunch of future all-stars waiting in the low minors.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
I realize we don’t have a plethora of future all-stars in the farm system. I do think that there are plenty of players that could be future MLers if they pan out.
My point was that I don’t want to see 2-3 possible puzzle pieces shipped out in return for 2-1/2 months of a “somebody” when we probably aren’t going to be pennant contenders.
Would depend on the pieces
I’d be willing to have the Bucs trade a couple C prospects, if that was indeed the price, to fill a positon of need. But yeah, I get what you mean. I think sometimes we as fans of this organization have a hard time accepting the concept of moving prospects. Mainly because we are not used to seeing the Bucs operate this way. Seems like this club has forever been trading away pieces to stockpile prospects. Don’t fear change, embrace it.
this
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 15, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Yet there are people gushing over the prospects in the minor leagues. There are some but not as many as others think or hope.
Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.
by Black&GoldTrain on Jul 17, 2011 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Better than you think.
Uh, you do realize he made only four errors last season and has three this year which is five less than the butcher they currently have at first now.
Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.
by Black&GoldTrain on Jul 17, 2011 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Rasmus!
Still can’t hit LHP, but would love to have him in Pittsburgh. Paired with McCutchen & Tabata, our OF would have great speed and potential. I don’t know how steep the asking price is, and don’t expect him to be dealt within the division though.
Pence Butler
I think if NH is willing to part with the lesser 2/5 of his top prospects (Sanchez, Alley), the best current players at the position of upgrade(Jones, Presley), a couple of fringe guys(Gorkies, Lincoln), and a couple lower level guys( too many to speculate), he should be able to aquire a couple name players with some control over the next few years. How much more would by required for Pence and Butler? The splash shows the future is now without wrecking the future.
Frin an ESPN article posted in a Fan Shot by pton16
“We absolutely are willing to add to this club if the right opportunity comes along,” Pirates GM Neal Huntington said Wednesday in a phone interview.
Well, as long as we’re out shopping then, I told Huntington, any chance we could pry Jose Reyes away from the Mets?
“Ah ha ha ha ha ha,” Huntington said.
“That’s not a ‘no,’” I nearly sang.
“It’s not a ‘yes,’” he shot back, still laughing.
— reality folks!
More
“Fantasy baseball is a wonderful thing,” Huntington said, laughing again, before we hung up. “But if the right piece is out there, we may stretch a little and we may stretch a lot. Or …”
“Yes?” I said.
“We may do nothing at all,” Huntington added.
I thought that was a great article, the writer captured not only the giddyness but the realities of being a pirates fan quite well. Also the humor in the article was used in conjunction with facts to convey the author’s point .
It is a great summation of Pirates fandom!
It’s so foreign to be buyers that we’re kid-in-a-candy-storin-it right now… the NH quotes perfectly kept it in perspective.
I sure hope the fan base here doesn’t get negative if they bring in a less than stellar piece. When you dream too big, you can get mighty disappointed!
this...
people are going to be disappointed and you are going to have writers like DK flaming Huntington on Twitter for his ability to show his faith in the this team. At the end of the day I’ll place my faith in Huntington, I think he’ll do the right things.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
If we don't replace Overbay
he deserves it. Whether that is through a trade, Hague, Jones or whatever, doesn’t really matter to me.
Keep reading things that seem to indicate the Angels are still hot and bothered over Garrett Jones
So my question is, what do the Angels have that could realistically help the Pirates? (Realistically = no Haren, Weaver or Trumbo)
I do see one guy they have…Erick Aybar. Swings a great bat for a SS and defense seems comparable to Cedeno so it’d be no downgrade there.
Could something like Jones, Cedeno and a good-not-great prospects get that done? Don’t know how he’s viewed in LA.
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Oh man I would love that
I’m a little more familiar with Aybar ‘cause he’s on my fantasy team. Dude can flat-out hit. Not sure about the defense, but worth checking into.
to clarify:
I’m totally in favor of getting Aybar, although I’d prefer to keep Jones if possible. I think with our future outfield build for speed it’ll be nice to have a guy off the bench with some thump. That being said, if he’s the guy they really want, I do think Aybar would be worth it.
Having that kind of bat and at least average defense at SS...
…would be an enormous help. Think Jones would be worth it. Aybar also has 1 more year of arbitration too.
Here’s a wild ass idea since we’re talking about hte Angels and Buster Olney just reported the Pirates have been making calls looking for veteran stability in the outfield….if the Angels would eat 5-6 million in salary….Torii Hunter?
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
You wouldn't hear me complain about that at all
Not one bit. I really like that, actually
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
Keep em' Young
and somewhat proven!!
WA and I have argued quite a bit about Butler, but it’s not necessarily the player. It’s more the logic of paying a little bit more for a guy like Morales than getting a rental like Pena.
If we could swing a package featuring Jones for Morales that would make me smile!
Jones would be worth it
I like Jones a lot as a player (and not just because he shares my name) . . . I see him as the type of 4th outfielder great teams can bring in off the bench. Ideally I’d like to see an OF of Cutch, Tabata, and Presley/Marte, with Jones getting 1-2 starts a week and pinch-hitting against RHP relievers. So for that reason I’d like to keep him around.
But yeah, Aybar would be awesome.
this is the same team that supposedly offered us one of the worst hitters in baseball for Jones. I can’t imagine what they would want for somebody who is actually useful. :)l
buster olney twitter
@Buster_ESPN The Pirates have asked around about veteran outfielders; looking for somebody who can be a stable presence in their offense. 18 minutes ago
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 15, 2011 1:05 PM EDT reply actions
I have a strong feeling Idk why, But i think come Aug 1st
Jeff Francoeur is going to be the starting RF for the Pittsburgh Pirates. I could see them adding two or 3 guys to the team actually. Aybar for Jones would be a good move too.
?
adding a solid or proven outfield bat then moivng GFJ to 1st doesnt sound like a bad idea to me
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 15, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
We disagree on our assessment of Francouer...
I don’t think he is a solid option. He’s having a solid year (average offensive year) but he’s had four below average seasons so I’m not buying this season’s performance. Even with that he doesn’t represent an upgrade over any of the Bucs’ in house options. Personally, I wouldn’t sign him as a free agent let alone a trade for him. He’s bascially Diaz with better defense. He’s not someone that will help this team make the playoffs and I think Tabata and Presley would do as well or better. The Royals are looking for a major league ready pitcher in exchange for him, no thanks.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Franky stinks
take away the first month and he’s around .200 with little power, if they remove Pressley, they should all be fired
by jackiegleason on Jul 17, 2011 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
downward to .300?
Frenchy is a terrible player, he has a hot skreak every year and then bats 200 or so the rest of the time.
Just because Pressley’s not big and strong and a highly rated prospect doesn’t mean he has to fall apart.
He’s dominated 2 years in a row in the minors as he progressed, a very good sign plus has been instrumental to this winning % the past few weeks.
NH previously grabbed other teams retreads with the mindset that they are better than anything the bucs had to offer, that approach stunk with a capital S, this year Hurdle has let the players prove it on the field, that approach should continue.
Keppinger would look decent IMO at SS, adequate fielder but nice stick to add.
by jackiegleason on Jul 18, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know about that.
Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.
by Black&GoldTrain on Jul 17, 2011 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Kevin Slowey
Saw on twitter that the Bucs could be a possible destination for Slowey. Here’s the link to the article http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/pirates_rockies_interested_in_twins_slowey/5559880
Nobody calls Han Solo a bitch!
ROOT sports says that Tabata reinjured himself last night
maybe thats why we are now hearing that the Pirates are looking for an extra outfielder?
My buddy told me that he saw that Gerrit Cole has agreed to a 15 year contract with the Bucs on Twitter last night. Is this true? I can’t find it anywhere
by 2010 will be the year on Jul 16, 2011 10:13 AM EDT reply actions
No. It's NOT true.
Complete and utter bullshit.
It was also posted here 3x yesterday.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 16, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/fixing-the-pirates-offense/
Interesting article on Fangraphs that pretty much goes along with everyone ideas about improvement. Although the last comment was about how the Pirates should get prince fielder AND jose reyes this off season, while I had to chuckle at the absurdity of it all, the projected lineup was like woah…it would be sick.
For those who don't read fanshots
JJ Hardy extended by O’s. Limited, no-trade clause and gentleman agreement to not deal him this season.
Veteran OF's?
Let’s get Soriano in the fold.
An always good hitting vet that looks to have a few fine years left.
Work out a deal to get the Cubbies to pick up some of that contract.
We lost tonight but we’re in the hunt in mid-July.
Amazing!
Let’s add for once, as I think it can be done without giving up anyone of major significance.
This may be the dumbest thing I've heard in weeks.
Fonsi?
.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 17, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Soriano
Soriano? No thank you! His contract and his defense will be the anchor that keeps the Cubs under water for a few more years.
Interesting read in a Cleveland paper about how the Indians should consider trading for Michael Morse from the Nats. The article had me convinced that he would be a good pick-up for us if the price is right.
Soriano, agreed no thanks
why do the bucs need an OF’er at all?
A 1B, yes, a SS upgrade? Yes. A 3rd base rental? Yes, A SP upgrade rental/longer term? yes.
Another mid level OF’er? NO
by jackiegleason on Jul 17, 2011 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I mentioned him a while back
The guy is putting up some decent numbers. His average is a bit low but he’s got 52 RBI’s and 15 HR’s to this point. Regardless of how he measures out sabre wise, it’s still sound production. Pure speculation on my part, but I can see 10 or 15 more HR’s out of him this season. I mean, if the Bucs are considering adding a RH outfielder ala Jackson or Willingham, why not pay a bit more and get Upton. I think he would be a better RH option than the other 2 anyway.
I agree
Hes not the proven Bat, but hes just the player the team is winning with Fast and athletic, getting around the base paths. Plus he can take it deep once in awhile. What would be a realistic trade for him Alex Presley and 2 Pitching prospects?
I would agree that he would be a better bet for sound production, but
he would cost a prospect or more to acquire. I personally think he would be more expensive to retain after the season, especially if he hits 15 more homers. If retained after the season, only being 27, could ensure a couple more seasons of productivity for the Bucs.
Mike Carp?
I’ve seen him play. He’s got a real power bat. And he’s not an old retread. He’s blocked in Seattle by Smoak.
Drew Storen?
Nats are shopping him. We are looking for an 8th inning upgrade. He’s got 4.5 more years under contract. He’s a fire-baller. They want a CF of the future. We have Gorkys and Marte to deal. I’d offer Gorkys and Lincoln. Maybe add a live arm from the low minors, if need be.
The Nats get Nyjer Morgan (their franchise player, remember?) without the attitude. A starter to pitch behind Strasburg, and a solid pitching prospect. We get a shut-down 8th inning reliever, who is controlled for the long-term, and could replace Hanrahan if he becomes too expensive.
Actually, Gorkys looks like he could be BJ Upton, without power. I could see the Nats being interested in the Gorkster.
this is a crazy subthread
you must be convinced Presley is a 4th OF to deal him for Storen. Same for the Gorkys + Lincoln package proposed for Storen.
I'm with you....
thunj thre is a bad case of brain freeze. Trading Presley or Lincoln for a friggin relief pitcher is not a good move. And I’m being nice. Besides, this is the first place I’ve read anwyhere that the Nats are shopping Storen. I’d like to see a link.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
MLBTR reported that they're listening,
and Storen is a potential closer. A half-season of Heath Bell could cost us Starling Marte. I think you’re undervaluing a guy like Storen.
Missed that one, thanks.
Heard they were shopping Clippard but not Storen. Closers and relief pitchers in general are over rated. The best ones in a great season will accumulate 2-3 WAR over a season. That’s about what one average (Lincoln) starting pitcher would give you. Now factor in the everyday player you guys are willing to give up and the third player whoever that is and you are basically trading 18 yrs of control and let’s say a minimum of 3 WAR per seasonfor 4.5 years control and minimum of .8 WAR. Not too mention I have the potential for to have one or two of my players achieving 5+ WAR seasons becasue they are starters. THat is impossible even with the best closer. Relievers, especially closers, are overrated and there is a very good reason they are reilievers….they are not good enough to start.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
It was posted earlier today.
And valid points. Closers are overrated for sure. However, a closer is always a hot commodity. Just a few months ago we were talking Hanrahan for Jurickson Profar. Even now, that would seem reasonable, as Heath Bell will likely require a top 50 prospect, and that’s just for a half year.
For 4 years of Storen, I think we’re getting a good deal. Not only do you have a shut-down 8th inning guy, but you also have a closer of the future. Hanrahan is only guaranteed to be here 2 more years, so Storen could step in for the 2 years after that and close. Not only that, but if Hanrahan would get hurt, we could look to Storen to take the 9th.
Even if you expect Meek to fully recover, we could still use a good bullpen arm. A pitcher would feel confident that he only needs to pitch 6 innings, and he could hand the ball to Meek/Storen/Hanny to shut the door.
In addition, it isn’t like we would be giving up too much of value. Gorkys has no place to play on the future teams, as Tabata/Marte/McCutchen can all play CF, and Gorkys doesn’t have the potential to be a corner OF. Lincoln is much like Gorkys, in that he is the odd man out of the current rotation, and management has never seemed to be too high on him. And the third piece I had in mind would be someone like Nate Adcock, who has potential, but we wouldn’t be protecting from the Rule V this winter.
Good points...
I’m all for selling high on closers, I’m just not big on buying high. Case in point, look no further than the Dotel trade. Reliever performance is extremely volatile. I’d rather the Pirates continue the plan they’ve been following the last couple of off seasons for relievers. And I believe that package you mention in the last paragraph is enough to bring back a decent bat. I’d much rather have an every day player than a reliever. Besides, I think you can pencil Lincoln into the rotation next year. He’s shown he’s ready to compete at this level and I don’t think he’ll be back in Indy next season. Just my opinion, you guys have good points. I’d much rather have the Pirates deal some of those fringe 40 man guys than lose them in the rule 5.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
But don't we have to consider the length of control?
It depends on how long we get this bat for.
At 1.5 WAR (a reasonable number for a guy like Storen, IMO) over 4.33 years, you get 6.5 WAR. We would need a bat for at least next year to equal this production.
At the same time, we could deal Hanrahan after next year ($$ being reason #1), get a good haul of prospects back, and turn to Storen to close. You can’t do that with the batter, unless you flip him this offseason.
So in the long-run, you give up very little, and get back 2 more years of having a reliable closer. Of course, a good hitter would definitely help win-now. But I’m still not sold that this package would get us anything great offensively.
Im not following...
A little confused on your comment. To clarify, are you saying that you think we should hang on to Gorkys/Presley? I don’t see much room for them, long-term, and feel that Storen would be a much more valuable commodity.
Gorkys and Lincoln was your offer, right?
Gorkys alone for Storen, maybe if you were convinced this team was going to compete and you had a big hole to fill. Maybe even in this case, with Storen’s years of control, I would be convinced.
But add in Lincoln and the Nats will put him on the first plane to Pitt and he’s all yours.
In general, imo, a 4th OF is more valuable than a RP. Let’s say you have a competent guy who if he plays all year will put up 1.5 WAR (both Gorkys and Presley can do that, I think, if they play all year.). A relief pitcher will put up 1.5 WAR at best, maybe 2. An injury to a regular OF, and your 4th OF will see a lot of games. Want to trade an OF to fill a hole? You can do it coz of the 4th OF, who is a solid player.
A reliever is just way too low ceiling to pay anything for at this point in the developmental cycle for the Bucs.
I'm not convinced either way on Presley
and Storen is quite good and would be around forever. I’d do Gorkys and Lincoln too because Gorkys can’t hit and Lincoln’s future to me is a Storen type, and he’s unproven.
this is a valid point
the Bucs FO needs to think about this, and if they reach the same conclusion, sell high on Presley. Safe to say his value wont get much higher.
Lincoln, I disagree on. Simply the fact that he could be a starter makes him more valuable imo. Storen may or may not stay this good, but there’s likely to be others we can find that can provide decent relief.
I saw Drew Storen personally in Washington. And he is as unhittable as Hanrahan. He changing speed from a 75 slider to a 95 heater pretty much every pitch. People think that his low strikeouts means he isnt dominant but its because everyone tries to hit his early stuff because there is no way they can hit that slider once u get to 1-2 or 0-2. .190 average against, sub 1 whip. Drew Storen is basically Hanrahan with more control. Now why would the Nats GM ever give up someone like that with 5 years of control I have no idea. If Washington wants to give up a young closer and for say a situational lefty, im sure Beimel would be happy to help the Pirates out anyway he can. I’m pretty sure the last time we did that we might have gotten the better end of that deal.
Think about Hanrahan and Storen paired together for the bucs...
Nats fans would be so jealous!
A prospect front-runner, of course.
STARSBURG AND HARPOR! THAT TEAMS LIKE THE MIAMI HEAT!
I responded to your above comment.
I like this debate :)
ALEX GORDON IS THE ANSWER
ALEX GORDON IS THE ANSWER
Alex Gordon would be the perfect fit for the Bucs and he could be had for alot cheaper price than Hunter Pence. Gordon has comparable stats to Pence and is more versatile, he can play both corners plus the outfield….other than trading for Aramis Ramirez or Jose Bautista this the Bucs best option……Willingham, Conor Jackson, Carlos Pena arent any better than what they currently have.
Kansas City is in dire need of pitching, the Bucs could send Lincoln, Owens and Marte for Gordon.
Then turn around and send Overbay or Diaz to some team willing to take them as long as the Pirates pay half his salary.
I, too, am a fan of Gordon.
I wish we would have pounced last year, but he still shouldn’t be TOO expensive to get.
I said this before, but I think Gordon would not only help the offense, but he could also be somewhat of a mentor for Pedro Alvarez, as Gordon struggled in his first couple years. Maybe he could give Pedro some advice on handling pressure, or how he fixed himself. Even if he can’t help Alvarez, he still can hit.
Why exactly do you guys think:
a) that Gordon would be cheap or
b) the Royals would trade him
He was there #1 pick a couple of years ago. He’s basically their Pedro except he’s hitting. Would you give up Pedro for Gordon? The Pirates may need to add something to that deal since Pedro is struggling in AAA and Gordong is having a solid year.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
The Royals aren't committed to him like the Astros are.
They feel that they have pieces, besides him, that are ready to step in. And they feel that they could use Gordon to land a good pitcher for next year. They don’t see Gordon being a long-term Royal, and want someone who can help them next year and beyond.
Forget where I read this, so I can’t link it yet, I’ll look for it. Anyways, Brad Lincoln would be a good fit for them, as they do want to compete in 2012, and Lincoln is MLB-ready. Lincoln and Marte would definitely be enough to start talking.
Josh Willingham would be a fine addition.
He had a slow start adapting to AL pitching and the crummy A’s atmosphere, but he still can mash and he’s a good veteran clubhouse presence. He’s a pretty bad LF, but he’ll be less bad in smaller NL parks than he is in the cavernous Coliseum.
The idea would be to build up the trade until the A’s give up enough value to net Marte or Allie in return, because that’s likely who they’d target. Josh Outman might be moveable. Andrew Bailey’s being shopped, but Beane wants a LOT in return for him. Other decent A’s pieces parts are pretty much their whole major league pen, and OF/IF Adrian Cardenas in AAA.
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
Ugh,
Has Willingham ever really MASHED? I mean, he’s respectable, but I’d be pissed if he was batting anything higher than 6th for us, after July 31st.
Koji Uehara
Pirates are ‘eyeing’ Koji Uehara.
I put stock in this as they aren’t PLAYING against Koji Uehara.
Have seen some rumors about trades with Oakland.
Seems like they might be asking for Garret Jones. When trading with Billy Beane, I bet it is safe to say that anyone he asks for might be a good player that you don’t want to get rid of.
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