Astros 6, Pirates 4: Bucs Fall Apart In Eighth

by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 16, 2011 10:25 PM EDT

HOUSTON,TX- JULY 16: First baseman Carlos Lee #45 of the Houston Astros waits for the ball while Brandon Wood #2 of the Pittsburgh Pirates dives back to first base in the second inning on July 16, 2011 at Minute Maid Park in Houston, Texas. (Photo by Thomas B. Shea/Getty Images)

Well, that wasn't the way this was supposed to work, was it? I was sure the headline was going to start with "Neil Walker Takes Over, Bucs Stay In First Place," but it wasn't to be, as Jose Veras blew a late lead.

About the only thing I don't like about a series against the Astros is Bud Norris, because I always worry about the Bucs' offense when it has to face pitchers who rack up strikeouts. But the Pirates did a nice job getting to him. The only problem was that Paul Maholm allowed nine hits in only five innings, and the Astros scored one in the second on a passed ball and two in the third on a homer by Jeff Keppinger. The Pirates came storming back in the middle innings, though, with solo homers by Walker (who went 4-for-5 and made a crucial catch), Lyle Overbay (who went 2-for-4 and looked good at the plate all day) and Brandon Wood. They went up 4-3 when Michael McKenry doubled and Walker knocked him in.

Chris Resop then got through the seventh without an issue, but Veras walked Hunter Pence to start the eighth. Pence then moved up on a groundout and stole third (on a play in which McKenry didn't throw, even though it looked like he might have gunned Pence down if he had). Pence then came home on a grounder by Brett Wallace, and then there was an error and a couple of singles, and the Astros wound up with a 6-4 lead. Mark Melancon got the Pirates 1-2-3 in the top of the ninth.

The Cardinals, meanwhile, beat the Reds, so the Pirates are now a game back. There's also the Brewers to worry about, but they're currently down three runs in the fourth.

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Comments

guess Ken Rosenthal was right

When he said today that the Pirates needed an 8th inning setup guy. To have the likes of Resop, Veras, Beimel setting up for Hanrahan is a recipe for disaster.

by BadAndy on Jul 16, 2011 10:32 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

Holy knee-jerk reaction, batman.

Resop and Veras have both been great all year. Veras had a bad outing tonight, yes, but no runs would have scored if the defense would have made standard Major League plays and/or the home plate umpire wouldn’t have blown that call on Pence.

The bullpen is fine. They’re not going to lock down every single game.

No jinx no jinx no jinx.

by Suffering Buc on Jul 16, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions

while i agree

with Meek pretty much done for the regular season i would like to get another bullpen arm if there is one out there for cheap.

age of last winning season: 5

by Bobby Hill on Jul 16, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions

“great all year”? Not sure if I agree with that. If you say generally dependable, I can buy that, but neither has been the sure thing that Hanrahan has been, so I hesitate to call either one great. I do agree on the rest though, this was just one of those games that the baseball gods didn’t want us to win I think. Good thing is that these sorts of losses happened every week last season it seemed, whereas this is one of only a handful of such losses this year.

by Akshay R on Jul 16, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions

And how many teams have sure things pitching the seventh and eighth innings?

by thecheeseisblue on Jul 16, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions

The Brewers just made it so.

by Cool Papa on Jul 16, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions

we did last year

meek hanrahan dotel, it was shut down after 6 innings

age of last winning season: 5

by Bobby Hill on Jul 16, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions

and we still lost 105 games

by Thunder on Jul 16, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions

you cant honestly think that

if we still had a healthy meek we’d still drop 100.

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 17, 2011 4:16 AM EDT up reply actions

Our bullpen was NOT shutdown last year.

It had an ERA of 4.57. And a healthy Meek. My point was that even if we had a shutdown bullpen last year, it did us no good. We lost 105 games. That’s an unalterable fact.

I have yet to explain how players that made 131 starts for the Pirates last season remain in the system, and drop the ERA for starters almost 2 runs (5.28 to 3.57).

As an exercise in futility, I actually even went in and replaced Duke’s 2010 numbers with Correia’s 2011 numbers and vice versa. Using Correia’s 2011 numbers in Duke’s 2010 slot would lower the 2010 starter’s ERA a hair over a quarter run…5.01. Putting Duke’s numbers in for Correia this year would put the starter’s ERA at 4.06.

The only answer I can come up with for the improvement…Ray Searage.

by Thunder on Jul 17, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions

And a full season of Mcdonald, and Morton not pitching like one of the worst pitchers of all-time, and no Burress. Pauley and Karstens though, ok

by Mr. E on Jul 17, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Point being...

JMac and Morton made a season’s worth of starts between them in 2010 (28). Most of the starting rotation is wearing the same uniforms as the ones that pitched the 2nd half of last season. With MUCH different results.

by Thunder on Jul 17, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Primarily because our starters only won 34 games all season. When your SP’s can’t get you through 5+ innings relatively unscathed, you’re not gonna win a lot of games.

by Akshay R on Jul 17, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions

Using Fangraphs' Shutdown/Meltdown statistic

Veras has increased the Pirates WPA by 6% or more 20 times and decreased it by that number or more just seven times. He’s been very good, as a generalization.

No jinx no jinx no jinx.

by Suffering Buc on Jul 16, 2011 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Very good I can agree with. He has the speed and stuff to be one of the best relievers in the game. But he also has those inconsistent stretches which still, even now, make me a little afraid when he comes into the game, and that’s why I disagree with calling him great.

by Akshay R on Jul 17, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions

That is really....

picking on semantics. Hanrahan, great. The other guys generally very good.

The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Jul 17, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions

Fair enough, maybe I am being too picky. But still, Hanrahan is unquestionably a great pitcher, but Resop and Veras, while generally very good, are simply not consistent enough for me personally to call them great. Maybe it’s just because I feel compelled to compare them against Hanrahan, but there it is.

by Akshay R on Jul 17, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions

2010 Dotel vs. 2011 Veras

Looks like a complete toss-up to me. I don’t really see an argument that would say what Dotel did last year was significantly better than what Veras has done this year.

by ElDuce on Jul 17, 2011 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions

Good Lord...

Resop and Veras have both been better than Dotel last season. #shortmemory

#AllTheBuntsAreBad!

by Slick1 on Jul 17, 2011 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions

which is why

i dont understand why resop got pulled. he pitched a good inning prior to. maybe i just get something but if a dude (particularly a reliever) throws a sharp inning why not stick with him? yes veras has been very good at times this year, and those times out number the bad outings significantly. if resop had pitched the 6th and the 7th i can understand pulling him. but changing pitchers just so your SU guy cant get some work in just doesnt make sense. although the heart of the order was due up and who in the pen do you trust to go through that other then hammer? that linup is still 8th in the majors in BA.

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 17, 2011 4:30 AM EDT up reply actions

Because....

Hurdle wanted to get all his relievers some work coming out of the break, which is part of the reason he pulled Maholm after 80 pitches.

Could have used McCutchen (8 pitches) or Resop (11 pitches) a second inning, but guys needed the work.

The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Jul 17, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions

Not the case....

you don’t think each of those guys blew games last year?

The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Jul 17, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions

Never said everyone else had them, just that I personally don’t think either Resop or Veras are great pitchers. Of course, “great” can be different for everyone, but to me, they’re both good, generally dependable pitchers, but not in the class of “great” pitchers.

by Akshay R on Jul 17, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions

Yes, neither have an ERA in the ones

They give up a run every 3 innings, which IS great. They have gotten way to much crap for how awesome they’ve been. On top of it they weren’t even supposed to be the setup guy/s

by Mr. E on Jul 17, 2011 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions

I guess it’s just a matter of opinion as to what “great” is. To me, a great pitcher is one who, when he comes in, truly surprises me when he gives up a couple baserunners or even a run. And that is not Veras and Resop; Both have had great stretches where they look like the best relievers in the game, no question about that, but neither fills me with the level of confidence that I have in Hanrahan, or even Meek last season, no question about that either. Maybe I just have higher standards for the word “great” than others, idk.

by Akshay R on Jul 17, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions

I think you are confusing

great with “hall of fame pace” cause that’s what 1.00 whip, 2.00 era relievers are. These two are in the top 5 in K/9 for non-closers and each has an ERA around 3, they are very very good.

by Mr. E on Jul 17, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Maybe Ohlendorf can be the 8th inning guy when he comes back?

So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.

by IAPiratesFan on Jul 17, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions

Not happening...

first he has to come back….don’t even put good money on that. Second, he’s very unlikely to get any high leverage innings. Probably only pitches when rosters expand in September.

The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Jul 17, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions

2 things I'd love to see change

1. The fixed 7th inning Resop, 8th inning Veras, 9th inning Hanrahan sequence— esp the first 2 of those. Both Resop and Veras are capable of imploding, so whoever comes first and looks to be on a roll should really start the next inning unless their spot comes up. (I know Hanrahan will never be used early, but when Pence came up to lead off the 8th, I thought to myself, this is the part of the order Hanrahan should face, the lower half will be a cakewalk relatively.)

2. Far too much aggression in the field, presumably called for. I think D’Arnaud should have taken the out at 1st, given the ball wasn’t hit well to him, and Pence is a good runner. It would have taken a perfect throw, and to his credit, D’Arnaud made a near-perfect throw, but its far too risky in general, esp when the run would tie with 3 outs left. The same goes for bunt defense too where we often seem to try to do way too much…

(anyone saw a post game quote over what McKenry was thinking when he didn’t make the throw to get Pence?)

by BurgherKing on Jul 16, 2011 10:52 PM EDT reply actions

I mean, ideally you want your best pitchers to pitch the highest leverage situations. Unfortunately that isn’t very possible due to the “closer” role. And you can’t have a reliever of Hanrahan’s caliber and not have him close, since saves pay the bills, even though it’s stupid. It’s a pretty unavoidable situation.

by thecheeseisblue on Jul 17, 2011 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions

rebutle

name a pitcher out there that isnt capable of imploding that works out of the pen who isnt a closer. aggression in the field against a team like the stros is needed, other then the stay puff marshmallow man they have that whole team is pretty quick. so you have to at times try and make something outta nothing. it really comes down to who can execute the fundamentals and that booted ball at third hurt.

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 17, 2011 4:34 AM EDT up reply actions

not my point at all

pitchers (and relief pitchers) are going to blow games once in a while. What I’m saying is: Don’t back yourself into a corner there. Resop had an easy 7th and looked good, his spot didnt come up in the order. So leave him in for the 8th. If he struggles, put Veras in (quick hook ready). Now, becase Resop already pitched, when Veras struggled, there was no one to go to (let’s not get into the Hanrahan discussion assuming managers aren’t gonna put closers in that early), because among Leroux, Watson and Beimel, most of us will agree sticking with Veras is a generally good idea. But with Resop continuing, you give yourself the option of having a high leverage guy you trust available.

Of course, this is going to fail occasionally too (as is Hanrahan) but I feel like this would give you a little more flexibility in a tight spot.

by BurgherKing on Jul 17, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions

d'Arnaud should

have charged that ball. Instead he sat back and played it on two bounces. Gets it on one and Pence is out by 5 feet.

McKenry makes the throw to third and Pence is also out by 5 feet.

The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Jul 17, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions

probably

but it was a hard play for D’Arnaud. Again, we are asking a lot of D’Arnaud, Wood, McKenry, Walker. Sometimes, it may be worth taking the outs, esp when ahead. If we’d taken the out, I’d bet we’d be tied after the inning.

by BurgherKing on Jul 17, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions

thats not an excuse for McKenry not throwing

but again, this comes down to my point that when you have so much inexperience in crunch situations repeatedly, that inexperience is going to cost you a few times.

Also, I bet McKenry not throwing had something to do with a flash of Fryer’s throw going into the outfield flashing by his head at that time.

by BurgherKing on Jul 17, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions

All I know is this:

We can’t lose tomorrows game. Starting the 2nd half off with a series loss to the Astros is not the way to jump into the meat grinder of a schedule we are about to face.

by Zach Buccos on Jul 16, 2011 10:56 PM EDT reply actions

agree 100%

and to add to it if the bucs are still at or above 500 after that stretch, the skys the limit

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 17, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions

Pence

Was out at home, even the Houston announcers thought so. Also could have got Pence at 3rd on the throw — think those are the bigger issues than Veras tonight.

by Slizeezyc on Jul 16, 2011 10:57 PM EDT reply actions

I'll say it a million times and I'll say it again until it's instituted:

The fact that baseball will not institute replay on safe/out calls is one of the greatest crimes right now in American sports. Simply a travesty. Here we are, with an opportunity to correct the errors made during a game, to get a game called correctly as possible, yet, for some unknown and erroneous reason, we choose not to do so. It’s just something that has always befuddled me.

by Zach Buccos on Jul 16, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Hey, Selig’s retiring after next season…just gotta pray that the next commissioner isn’t so dead set against replay.

by Akshay R on Jul 17, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions

while i agree on two points

Pence aint on the basepaths if veras doesnt walk him…..i always look at the first batter veras faces, if he walks him he is gunna suck, if he strikes him out he is on… after he walked pence i knew it was gunna be bad

age of last winning season: 5

by Bobby Hill on Jul 16, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions

But... He wasn't bad

He was actually fantastic after he had that lead off walk, which is usually not in typical Veras form. After that Veras walk he had:

1. Ground out, moved runner over
2. Brain fart by Fort
3. Blown call by ump
4. Wood choking on a fairly routing grounder that could of turned two

So after he walked him, he actually went against your hypothesis and was fantastic. The team let him now. None the less, I can’t stand lead off walks so he certainly still deserves a share of the blame.

by Zach Buccos on Jul 16, 2011 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions

none of that bullshit happens

if he doesnt walk the Mother he put the team in the position to lose and i am not hating on the guy i like veras, just not as a setup man

age of last winning season: 5

by Bobby Hill on Jul 16, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions

No, you're rebuttling the wrong point...

You said the following: “i always look at the first batter veras faces, if he walks him he is gunna suck, if he strikes him out he is on… after he walked pence i knew it was gunna be bad”

So you were implying that since he walked Pence, he was going to be bad from then on out. “If he walks him, he is gunna suck…” He absolutely did not perform poorly after the walk. That’s what I was disputing. He was excellent post-walk. From the quote I listed above, you made it seem like he gave up hit after hit.

by Zach Buccos on Jul 16, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions

just saying

soon as he walked pence i would have pulled him. and your right he wasnt horrible but he didnt get a strikeout when he really needed and the were putting balls in play against him. When he is on he is on striking mother fuckers out

age of last winning season: 5

by Bobby Hill on Jul 16, 2011 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions

If ML make plays...

we aren’t having this conversation. Yes, you don’t Veras to walk the leadoff batter. I also want my catcher to make the throw to third when the guy is gonna be out by 5 feet. I want my SS to charge a grounder on a play at the plate, I want the ump to be in position to make the right call, I want my 3rd baseman not to make his first error of the year on the next grounder.

The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Jul 17, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions

" He absolutely did not perform poorly after the walk.

If you wanna win the game you have to have an 8th inning set-up guy who is not prone to the walk. Veras is.

by Lomez969 on Jul 16, 2011 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions

I did that wrong, was responding to this comment by BH

by Lomez969 on Jul 16, 2011 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Like the World Series Champions?

whose 9th! inning guy is putting up 4.7 BB/9 and has a career 3.9 BB/9. Lots of relievers walk guys. Veras is very good.

by Mr. E on Jul 17, 2011 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions

he threw more balls then strikes and fell behind eveyr hitter he faced

to me a setup guy needs to be just as good as the closer and closers dont do that. you go out throw strikes and make them hit into outs.

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 17, 2011 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions

One. Fucking. Game.

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Jul 17, 2011 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs

against a team we should have beaten

how many can this club let go by the wayside?

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 17, 2011 3:54 AM EDT up reply actions

you cant win every game, including against the worst of the worst

and its also just a matter of time before Hanrahan blows a save.

i suggest you prepare for this so that you dont get worked up about it

by white angus on Jul 17, 2011 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions

exactly

パトリック

by patthatt on Jul 17, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions

+161

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 17, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions

and none of that happens

if the world had imploded 6 hours earlier. Yet, he DID walk the leadoff batter and he DID pitch his way out of it, with no help to umpires or defenders.

by Mr. E on Jul 17, 2011 3:34 AM EDT up reply actions

I believe Veras threw less than half his pitches for strikes

by Lomez969 on Jul 16, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions

The 8th was a team collapse.

Several guys contributed, plus bad luck. Also didnt have Presley and Cutch, the two best hitters of late, deliver earlier in game. That’s baseball and that’s why you play 162——it more or less balances out in large sample. If Stros lost, they’d be saying that they smacked Maholm around and let one get away.

by Horace Clarke on Jul 17, 2011 7:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Agreed, what is with the Veras hate?

This game was lost due to McKenry’s inexplicable decision not to throw to third when he had Pence dead to rights. Has anyone else noticed how often he deides to hold the ball on steal attempts? I have been a big supporter of McKenry, but what an awful decision. It really has me wondering if he has no confidence throwing the ball in crucial situations.

by nycbucsfan on Jul 17, 2011 12:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

McKenry...

lost his grip on the ball pulling it out of his glove on one of the stolen base attempts over the weekend…can’t remember if it was Friday or last night. If you lose the grip on the ball, then try to throw it…the chances are it won’t end up going where you want it to. Better to hold on to the ball than to throw it half way to Waco.

by Thunder on Jul 17, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Great, we're the lead story on SportsCenter

UGGGGGH

by Zach Buccos on Jul 16, 2011 11:01 PM EDT reply actions

"so much for the pirates day in first place" is what the anchor said

I FUCKING HATE ESPN. they shove the bullshit they want you to see down your throat (NBA, YANKEES, REDSOX) then have to say stupid shit like that

age of last winning season: 5

by Bobby Hill on Jul 16, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

agree 100%

comments like that are why i rarely watch the four letter if at all.

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 17, 2011 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions

mlb network > espn

Espn are full of douches (buccigross, van pelt rare exceptions)

by BadAndy on Jul 17, 2011 6:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions

and when VanPelt says something relevant or a tad bit rebellious, they suspend him for a couple of weeks

VanPelt is much better on the radio where he can be more “himself”

by white angus on Jul 17, 2011 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions

The play at home was a joke, and I think if every other sport uses instant replay. BUT Veras SUCKS if he learned how to throw strikes that play doesnt happen

by PiratesFanSince1980 on Jul 16, 2011 11:02 PM EDT reply actions

Seriously....

you live in a fantasy land. Posts like this are so tiresome.

If Maholm had thrown a no-hitter we would have to worry about ANY OF THIS!!!!!!!!!!!

The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Jul 17, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

+1

#AllTheBuntsAreBad!

by Slick1 on Jul 17, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions

ooops I think if every other sport uses instant replay baseball should

sorry about that

by PiratesFanSince1980 on Jul 16, 2011 11:03 PM EDT reply actions

SportsCenter showing the replay....

Clear as fucking day, he was out. I’m disgusted. I can honestly accept that umpires blow calls, but what really does disgust me the most is that baseball chooses not to write this wrong and institute replays.

by Zach Buccos on Jul 16, 2011 11:04 PM EDT reply actions

i agree somewhat

but the human element is what makes the game the game.. i think a manager should have 1 challenge a game

age of last winning season: 5

by Bobby Hill on Jul 16, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions

The human element....

doesn’t make any element “the game.”

Tennis figured it out. Bastketball figured some of it out. Football figured some of it out. Baseball has figured out very little of it.

The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Jul 17, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions

I'd have base and strikes taken out of umps hands.

Probably make it more consistent, and feasible w existing technology. Man, would that crest an uproar!

by Horace Clarke on Jul 17, 2011 12:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Balls and strikes.

by Horace Clarke on Jul 17, 2011 12:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

No more instant replay in baseball-what is already there is enough.

The umps do a good job overall. The game is slow one already. We don’t need more delays.

パトリック

by patthatt on Jul 17, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions

Couldn't care less

And I don’t think any fan would either if the umps took their time to review big calls

by Zach Buccos on Jul 17, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions

Zach Buccos

You sure do presume a lot to speak for all fans. Some people would like to see more instant replay to decide disputed calls, some would probably even like to go further and have a K-Zone do the balls and strikes-period.

パトリック

by patthatt on Jul 17, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Cricket

is flirting with the instant replay in allowing the batting and fielding team each to have 2 challenges. But it slows down the game.
But those games go for either a day or up to 5 depending on the format.

Maybe baseball can go down that path and have one appeal for each team in each game – including HR calls and first base putouts where if it’s close enough then the ump’s decision stands.

by BlindSquirrel on Jul 17, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm sorry, but what makes the "human element" of baseball more... human elementy then say football was?

Football always relied on the human element of its officials to make the correct call. Forever. Ever since the game was created. Exactly like baseball, so… what’s the difference? What makes the human element of baseball so much more sacred then it was for football?

by Zach Buccos on Jul 16, 2011 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

they still have the human element with challenges

you cant challenge every play and once your challenges are done your screwd that how baseball should be except with one challenge

age of last winning season: 5

by Bobby Hill on Jul 16, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions

I think it should simply be like football

Where literally every play can be reviewable. Hypothetical scenario: Lets say technology gets developed 30 years from now that essentially eliminates the need for umpires. 100% accuracy on balls in strikes, safe/out calls, caught/not caught calls, fair/foul, etc… Do you know how much I’ll care about the “human element” being taken away from the game? Zero. Couldn’t give two shits if the umpire profession became extinct. If the game can be called as perfectly as possibly, I have zero care for preserving the “sanctity” of the game and it’s dumb “human element.”

by Zach Buccos on Jul 16, 2011 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions

ya i see that

i was thinking the same thing, a computer that can tell when the ball gets to the base before the runner would be awesome but it would just be a diffrent game if everything was called perfect ya know

age of last winning season: 5

by Bobby Hill on Jul 16, 2011 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions

to hell with the human element

i agree with some of the other posts on this, crucial calls whether it be a safe/out call in a key situation or a boarder line long ball need to be reviewable. do we need to have every ball and strike reviewed? no, but game changers surely need to be reviewable. i could give tow shits if a ump gets his feathers ruffled or the purists think its encroaching on the sanctity of the game.

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 17, 2011 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm more pissed by the lead-off walk

than the call by the ump

by Lomez969 on Jul 16, 2011 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions

But what is the penalty

for a challenge that doesn’t go your way? You can’t lose a timeout…

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 16, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions

there doesnt have to be a penalty

by BurgherKing on Jul 17, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions

"But what is the penalty for a challenge that doesn't go your way?"

The broadcast team’s reporter-Lacee Collins in our unfortunate case-should be banned for the next game.

パトリック

by patthatt on Jul 17, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions

That's not a penalty -

that’s a relief!

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 17, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions

as my suggestion above

you could lose the chance to appeal later in the game.

by BlindSquirrel on Jul 17, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah the NFL officials are way better now rather than what they were before replay. Id love one challenge a game and if you win it you get a bonus one

by PiratesFanSince1980 on Jul 16, 2011 11:12 PM EDT reply actions

STL won today

Brewers tied with the Rockies, top of the 9th

by BurgherKing on Jul 17, 2011 12:03 AM EDT reply actions

Not any more...

by Schide on Jul 17, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions

Evidently...

we have 2 positions in the Pirates system that require hazardous duty pay. Catcher, obviously…and SS. Cedeno on the DL here, Brian Friday on the DL at Indy, Jordy Mercer pulled after being hit by a pitch tonight.

Might not be out of the question that Pearce gets called back in the next 24 hours with Ciriaco going back to Indy so they don’t have Pearce, Andy Marte or Pedro playing SS tomorrow, if Mercer’s injury is of any significance. I thought Pearce might get called back Monday anyway, since he appears to have his swing back.

by Thunder on Jul 17, 2011 12:06 AM EDT reply actions

any idea what Mercer's situation is?

he was just starting to heat up, too… dang…

by BurgherKing on Jul 17, 2011 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions

No clue...

just saw references in game thread and twitter to Mercer getting pulled. He was 3-3 with a HR before getting HBP. Hadn’t been able to follow much tonight.

by Thunder on Jul 17, 2011 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions

I imagine they would just bring up JRod to AAA rather than mess with Pearce’s rehab.

by Mr. E on Jul 17, 2011 3:46 AM EDT up reply actions

Actually...

Biertempfel is tweeting that Cedeno is scheduled to start rehab at Indy today.

by Thunder on Jul 17, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions

And JRod promoted...

The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Jul 17, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Regroup and take the series man!!

Heads up

by Steelchamps !! on Jul 17, 2011 2:24 AM EDT reply actions

word

havent lost a series in forever and a day, i doubt the boys plan on doing it tomorrow. KC’s on the mound against wandy who got battered by the marlins (who somehow have a worse o the then bucs). he’s given up 5 or more in three of his last four starts…giving up more fly balls which probably coincides pretty well with the elevated ERA. ..although KC did get belted around pretty hard against the cubbies last time around

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 17, 2011 4:44 AM EDT up reply actions

buts kc's last outing was at home

which i guess he has some kinda allergy to pnc park given his record of lackluster performances there.

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 17, 2011 4:47 AM EDT up reply actions

Jose Veras

Veras is getting to the point where I don’t know how Hurdle can trust him. His career numbers suggest he can lose command of the strikezone which was evident tonight. In a one run game, you can’t walk the leadoff man late in the game. Just can’t. When Veras gets behind in the count and is forced to come in with a 93/94 mph fastball, it allows the hitters to tee off. Veras gets good arm side run on his fastball, but the problem is he often leaves it up in the zone. I’ve had the priveledge of working around the game my whole life and have spent time with Jose. He’s a great guy and has some of the biggest has of anyone I’ve ever seen (helps with his splitter – a pitch he rarely throws anymore); however, his control is getting to the point where he can’t be placed in “high leverage” situations.

I hope Ohlendorf can come back and step in as a dominant late innings reliever, something he showed glimpses of in the Bronx.

Rosenhall (Sp?) seems to think the Bucs will target a dominant/reliable 8th inning guy.

Guys that could be available that I’d like to see us go after: Leo Nunez (FL), Brandon League (SEA), Kerry Wood (CHI NL), any of the Padres relievers. While these options may cost a decent prospect(s) in return, it’ll be worth it.

With a reliable 8th inning guy, Hanrahan automatic in the 9th, and the way the starting pitching has been, three runs should be able to win games.

by NOLABUCCO on Jul 17, 2011 2:29 AM EDT via mobile reply actions

*hands

by NOLABUCCO on Jul 17, 2011 2:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Ohlendorf 2010 BB/9 3.7

Only his second season of more than 6.1 IP that was under 4.3 BB/9.

Veras is at 4.1 BB/9 this year.
Kerry Wood has 4.6 BB/9 this season.

Veras/Resop will be very good, adding Meek would be even better.

by Mr. E on Jul 17, 2011 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions

Bad home plate call in Brewers game also

in their favor, and they won by 1 run. On the road at Colorado, no less. Ianneta and Tracy both tossed arguing. Rockies came back briefly and almost won. Maybe Hurdle should have got himself ejected for our 8th inning call. Isn’t he about due for one?

by Central*Scrutinizer on Jul 17, 2011 2:39 AM EDT reply actions