Pirates Lose In 19th Inning On Absurdly Poor Call By Jerry Meals
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 27, 2011 1:56 AM EDT
Email
Print
I'll post more on this ridiculous/incredible game as the night goes on, but ... wow. Home-plate umpire Jerry Meals just completely botched a call at the plate that gave the Braves a 4-3 win in the 19th inning. I have no idea how he could have ever thought the runner was safe - Michael McKenry plainly tagged the runner out a foot in front of the plate. The only explanation I can think of is that the guy wanted to go home. It's a huge slap in the face to the Pirates, and particularly Daniel McCutchen, who had labored heroically for several innings. There's just no other explanation, other than maybe the debilitating effects of six hours of outdoor baseball in Atlanta. Unbelievably terrible call. Here's a gif of the play.
Meals explains his rationale here:
"I saw the tag, but he looked like he oléd him and I called him safe for that. I looked at the replays and it appeared he might have got him on the shin area. I’m guessing he might have got him, but when I was out there when it happened I didn’t see a tag.
"I just saw the glove sweep up. I didn’t see the glove hit his leg."
I started watching this game at 7:00, and by 8:00 I was already of the opinion that it felt long, with both Tommy Hanson and Jeff Karstens working into a lot of deep counts and taking a long time to get through each inning. When McKenry hit his unlikely homer off Hanson in the second to put the Pirates up 3-0, I felt certain that the Pirates would be able to pull it out, because when they go up by a couple runs this year, their pitching has generally done a great job holding the lead.
It wasn't to be, as Karstens struggled in the third, allowing three runs of his own in the bottom of the third. And that was the last time either team would score for a really long time.
A number of both teams' higher-leverage relievers pitched standard one-inning stints in the late innings, but by the time the 11th rolled around, most of what was left was the lower-wattage guys. The Braves, luckily for them, had a guy in Cristhian Martinez who had already been starting for Class AAA Gwinnett, and they were able to have him go six innings, during which he allowed two hits and struck out six while walking none. Jason Grilli somehow got through three innings in which he stranded a ton of runners, but regardless, the Braves didn't score.
Then came Daniel McCutchen, who gutted his way through five scoreless innings. He and Martinez are clearly the heroes of the night. The Braves had to turn to their worst pitcher, Scott Proctor, in the 17th, and they couldn't get to him in three innings, stranding a total of five runners (two of whom at reached via intentional walks) between the 17th and 18th.
And then, the 19th. McCutchen walked Julio Lugo with one out, then gave up a single to Jordan Schafer that put Lugo at third. Schafer moved up to second on catcher's indifference. Proctor, who was batting at that point because he had to, grounded the ball to third. The throw home beat Lugo by a mile, and McKenry tagged him a foot in front of the plate. It wasn't even close. And for some reason, Meals called him safe.
Let me say this. Pirates fans have been fixated for 19 years on a certain play at the plate that involved the Atlanta Braves. Now they're in the midst of what might be their first winning season since then. If the Bucs' season starts to go south after this - as the result of another play at the plate involving the Atlanta Braves, and a thoroughly blown call at that - I could see a scenario in which Jerry Meals became a villain of epic proportions among Pittsburgh sports fans.
Or, you know, maybe the Bucs will go 7-3 in their next 10, and all will be forgotten. But this call - wow. Just wow.
... And I haven't even mentioned the Nate McLouth and Fredi Gonzalez ejections, or any number of other things. I started working a graveyard shift for SBNation.com at 10:00 that ended at 2:00. Normally when one of those is over I feel like I'm losing my mind, but on this particular night a game I had started watching at 7:10 was just ending.
UPDATE 3:26 AM: You can see the video here. As folks have pointed out in the comments, watch the way Lugo reacts. It's at the very end of the video. Does he look like a man who thinks he hasn't been tagged?
680 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Worst fucking call, ever, ever, ever
There will not be a worse call than that.
The Pirates deserve an apology immediately!
was a horrible call
but not as bad as this call, which single handedly cost the braves a playoff game last year
sorry guys didn’t want to win the game like that, meals sucked all night but that was inexcusable
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
my point is
Umpiring is really subpar these days, and they either need replay or at least kick the shitty ones to the curb
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
:P
good luck with the series guys, while I hope you don’t win today even though I think you will because your coming out with a vengeance, I hope you sweep the Phillies, they are douchebags.
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
Honestly
“The only explanation I can think of is that the guy wanted to go home.” Legitimately the only possible excuse. Either that or he he accidentally made the safe signal with his hands and just decided to stick with it
replays also showed
That Meals made the safe call before Lugo even STEPPED ON THE PLATE.
Horrible ending. Horrible
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2011 7:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I noticed that
Which, honestly, kind of points to exhaustion. You always see umps ostentatiously waiting to see the technical outcome of a play (e.g., touching the plate on a walk-off homer).
Chipper Jones said the same thing a few weeks back when he got screwed over.
The Braves got a gift win.
パトリック
This is such a shame
Something like this happens that could conceivably cost the Pirates a trip to the playoffs. Or at the very least a .500 record or something like that.
A big thumbs up to all the Buccos for playing their hearts out last night and this morning.
パトリック
by patthatt on Jul 27, 2011 2:01 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Amen to that!
Great game that ended in a terrible way. This game makes me love the Bucs even more. They fight til the end and it’s such a shame they were robbed. Unbelieveable…
Agreed completely. Awesome effort from the guys. I can’t imagine how tired they must have been, but they kept playing their asses off.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Ready pass out, then cry in my sleep
My DirectV is on the fritz, so I had to listen to the game on XM’s Braves broadcast. Even their announcers could not believe it and said after looking at the reply that it “was the worst call of the night” and “the runner may never had touched home at all”. Unvelievable – I hope that ump gets suspended or fired.tou
Rich Pelesky
by Richard Pelesky on Jul 27, 2011 2:01 AM EDT reply actions
Holy Shit...
It was a double play, the batter fell coming out of the batter’s box.
It doesn’t cost a thing to believe and the payoff on a winner is huge!
worst. call. ever.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
I honestly never genuinely wish bad things happen to people
I make jokes about it. I’ve never been so serious in my life when I say I hope bad things happen to Jerry Meals. No, I don’t want him to die, or members of his family to die, but like… I’ll take a broken bone during the course of umpiring tomorrow or shot to the nuts tomorrow night on a foul ball. Now, if he genuinely apologizes and admits he fucked up, different story, but at the moment, I hate him more then anything in the world.
Wow, lighten up
It was a blown call — it’s a game. Don’t wish for ill things, that’s bad karma.
Nobody hurt a tackler like Zonk did.
by rintintinsoldier on Jul 27, 2011 6:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm just asking for a foul ball to the nuts
too much to ask for?
by Zach Buccos on Jul 27, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Considering
that 2 umps in Pirates games have been nailed in the last month or so (one over the weekend in St. Lo, one during the Boston series iirc), and that those umps weren’t so “deserving”, no I don’t think it’s too much to ask for.
Ideally, the Bucs’ trainer would be first on the scene and apply some of that freeze spray. I think that would satisfy my schadenfreude.
NO SUCH THING AS BAD KARMA
Just bad umps amd bad league policy (i.e. limited replay). But I don’t wish “ill will” on Mears, only that he gets the proper administrative punishment for his lack of professional duties. At least he should have manned up like Joce did last year.
Rich Pelesky
by Richard Pelesky on Jul 29, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Meals punishment? No way!
Any discipline involving MLB and Meals would require Bud Selig to lose nap time. Not gonna happen, my friend.
Shhhhh …. Bud is drifting off.
yea right...
Meals will get a slap on the wrist at most. what the heck can the league do? they wont fire him and they def. wont reward the pirates a win.
Agreed
I can’t think of any times when an umpire was disciplined for what the league considers a “judgment call”. There have been some instances of an umpire getting in trouble for being overly aggressive during altercations, but I don’t know that there’s ever been discipline for a call.
Yeah, you guys are right. Wishful thinking on my part.
I doubt he’ll get any free meals on their next stop in Pgh., though.
パトリック
Nothing is going to happen to Meals and nothing should. I’ve watched that replay dozens of times now and you’ll never convince me that there’s proof he ever tagged Lugo. He might have and it could be a bad call, but at full speed live it’s still a perfectly legitimate call.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Nothing is going to happen to Meals and nothing should. I’ve watched that replay dozens of times now and you’ll never convince me that there’s proof he ever tagged Lugo.
What are your feelings on the moon landing?
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There's no way the ump can call safe on that play, from his angle...
…unless it was predetermined or if he suspended belief. Even if McKenry missed the tag (which he didn’t) from the ump’s sight-line, there’s no way he could have SEEN McKenry missing the tag.
Just a blown call. Plain and simple.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
by CTapps on Jul 27, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Well, if he doesn’t believe we have been to the moon, I don’t think he is the only one.
by WestCoastBuc on Jul 27, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
He was called safe before he toched home plate....
does your tv broadcast in braille?
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jul 27, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Headline: God, Umps hate the Pirates
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 2:04 AM EDT reply actions
Unbelievable. One of the worst calls ever.
I wonder why none of the other umpires overruled or something.
Aw damn, I dunno.
It’s up on YouTube and it … how do I put this … it looks just a little like McKenry whiffed on the tag. Is that possible?
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:07 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
How can you know his glove isn't ABOVE the leg, not touching it?
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 27, 2011 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions
There was another angle that clearly showed he touched his knee.
by MarkInDallas on Jul 27, 2011 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Where's that angle?
Cause I’m looking for some disruption of the runner’s uniform on his leg, and I’m looking for some microsecond of interruption of McKenry’s tag if he clearly hit the leg, and I’m not seeing it.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
still . . .
I agree that it looks possible that he whiffed on the tag, but when the ball beats the runner by that much it’s 50/50 whether or not he makes the tag, you have to call him out. It’s the only reasonable call in that situation. If he’d obviously whiffed, sure, call him safe. But there’s no way you can call him safe there.
YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vcq8xZHbDc
I’m still looking for a clear tag.
Not trying to be an asshole, if it was clearer than this I’d be pissed too, that’s a crucial game.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
From the runner’s reaction, he clearly seems to think he was out.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
um...
lego ran right into him… he had the ball. hes out.
He fucking tagged him
in the knee and armpit; what more do they need?
This is killing me
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
-“enough with that, it’s only the Pirates after all”
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry,
Still not seeing it. There’s a shadow on the leg that might be the mitt on the leg or the mitt above the leg. I can’t tell. The ump waited until the runner stepped on the plate and then made the safe call. He appears to think McKenry whiffed.
Just sayin’.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you think that there was clearly no tag? Because in this situation, an inconclusive play would clearly be called out based on how far he was thrown out. If you honestly think he was safe, maybe you and Meals should make an eye appointment together, because everyone else who saw it seems to think he was out.
When the whole world sees one thing, and you see another, you’re probably wrong.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions
No.
I don’t think there was “clearly no tag.”
I just don’t see a clear tag, either.
As to whether I’m high … I wish.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So, in that situation, do you call him out? Or safe?
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I know
I’m the one who often refers to the “out by general principles,” which states that if you deserve to get called out because you’re a bonehead, you get called out 90 percent of the time you’re really safe.
This situation should, usually, apply. However, this wasn’t your usual situation. This decided the game. I’d be real sure I was calling what I actually saw and not what I think the runner deserved when the run in question will end the game.
Again, I’m not advocating for the call one way or another, I’m just saying, I don’t see clear evidence one way or the other.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You and Meals can probably get a discount at an optics store if you go in on it together.
;-)
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
No, you don’t see clear evidence in the tag itself. When you take in situational evidence, the reactions of McKenry and Lugo, it becomes very apparent that he was tagged out.
You can maybe (but not very strongly) say there was no tag. You cannot say he was safe.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Lugo
seems to be uncertain, as if he’s not sure whether the safe call means he’s safe OR that McKenry whiffed on the tag and Lugo missed the plate, because as soon as he gets the “safe” call he steps on the plate to make sure.
As for McKenry, he wouldn’t be the first guy to try to bluff a tag/no tag, catch/no catch.
But yeah, Lugo kind of looks like he thinks he’s out.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You’re trying really hard to find excuses here. When you add up the sum of the play, it’s an out. Period.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
“bucdaddy”, you probably should just drop it. You’re going to give some of us aneurysms.
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
I'm not gonna stop yelling
cause that would mean I lost the fight!!
by BlindSquirrel on Jul 27, 2011 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not making excuses.
I’m telling you what I see and don’t see.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You’re talking about how uncertain Lugo looked. He looked like he was out. If you aren’t tagged, you know it, and you’re going to be really happy and excited. He clearly knew he was out. You’re just grasping at straws here to try to make your case.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions
no really
there’s more evidence available to the umpire than a crappy video… it was out, and you’re trying to find him an out— which you’ve done a decent job at, but everyone can tell at this point that he was tagged.
Don't let them beat you
It’s not worth a battle, but you are the only one I see here making sense.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
er, this argument makes little sense
I appreciate trying to see the other side here, but if Meals has an out, its to go up and say, hey i fucked up awful. i ll try to do better.
you dont...
call someone safe on a play like that unless its 100% a sure thing. that was straight bullshit. lazy
to end a game that way is a friggin joke
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 4:27 AM EDT up reply actions
exactly...
he wont hear a thing about it either. for our luck, we ll finish 1gb in the standings at the end of the year. go figure. if it was yanks sox, that play is out.
How about when he also tagged his armpit
before the guy even thought about touching home plate?
Screw that, where’s the proof Lugo even touched the plate?
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions
There's no tag on the armpit.
He either got the knee or he got nothing.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Alright
You’re just being obtuse here. He tagged him on the knee and up in the shoulder area. I clearly saw the mitt hit him and the disruption in the uniform, and Lugo and McKenry both knew he was out.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
by RichieHebner on Jul 27, 2011 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions
The knee I don't know about.
But there’s a ground-level replay that doesn’t show the mitt anywhere near the armpit or shoulder.
“Are you catching my drift? Or am I being obtuse? … Give him another month to think about it.”
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I am catching your drift
And whether you are obtuse or not, you’re wrong. I saw it on a very large screen, in high definition, on our broadcast, their broadcast and in replay. He swipe tagged him in the lower leg and as Lugo was coming up he hit him again in the shoulder area. Most important, Meals had no reason whatsoever to believe the tag was missed and in such a situation the call is out. Always.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
by RichieHebner on Jul 27, 2011 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vcq8xZHbDc
From :30 on, tell me at what timestop there’s a tag on the armpit or shoulder?
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
At :24, the tag appears to hit his jersey. It moves.
REGARDLESS, he tagged his knee/shin area prior. And regardless of THAT, on a play at home where the ball beats the player by that much, that far in front of the plate, he’s out anyway. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
The angle from :30 on
CLEARLY shows the mitt is nowhere near the jersey.
He either tagged him on the knee or he didn’t tag him at all.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Did You....
watch the game? I watched the Braves telecast on a frickiing 240 inch screen in high resolution. I also got the Pirates telecast on my laptop. I saw several angles and yes he did tag him. Lugo had not even tagged home as Meals was starting to call him safe and then Lugo came down on the base. Not even close. Worse call in a long long time
Wrong.
Lugo’s right heel comes down on the plate and THEN Meals calls him safe. And THEN Lugo steps on the plate again.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just stop it. Unless you’re trying to make enemies.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions
stop. wasting. your. time
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not trying to make enemies.
Just saying what you might see if you weren’t in a blind rage.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Have my statements made me appear to be in a bind rage? No. Because I’m not in one, I don’t do that. I pointed each reason he should have been called out, and you admitted that you didn’t know either way on each point. And when those are combined in that situation, out is absolutely the correct call. In that situation, you only call safe if you are one hundred percent certain there was no tag.
At this point you’re only continuing to talk about it to anger people. You’re not going to change anyone’s minds, and your case is not exactly a good one. So what reason do you have to continue to argue your case, other than to provoke people?
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure not trying to anger people.
I sure as hell wish we were in the 23rd inning right now.
But this is an interesting case study in people seeing what they want to see (and that might be the case with me as well).
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So, the people at ESPN, and Yahoo, and all the writers that have already commented on this, they want to see the Pirates win? Nobody has stepped up to defend the call, everyone says he is out. Including the objective people, including the fans of the opposing team, including the opposing team’s announcers. The people who want to see him safe even admit he was out. This is not a case of seeing what people want to see.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Granted,
I’m going against a lot of people here, but the rest of the world thought Galileo was a heretic too.
Just saying, looking at the YouTube footage, I don’t see a clear tag.
Good night.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stop being a joker seriously. You trolled them nicely I must admit.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions
bucdaddy
has been a member of BD for a very long time.
You may not agree with him, but he is far from being a troll.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2011 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So it’s quite surprising because I admit it could be difficult to see Lugo tagged, but seriously it’s even more to prove he was safe, there’s no arguments there.
& The big difference between these 2 options is that the 2nd ended the game.
Bad call
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
‘Trolling someone’ and ‘being a troll’ aren’t necessarily one in the same. Though I do agree, I think he’s just voicing his opinion.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
s’what I meant.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, the rest of the world didn’t say Galileo was a heretic, only the church did. Everyone else was just too afraid to speak out for him since the church would have them killed.
And that is a lot different than the way you’ve been behaving, which has been essentially defending the umpire’s decision without saying so directly.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Is Jerry Meals your brother?
Lugo was clearly out. You can see the tag a good THREE FEET in front of the plate. And Lugo knew it, too.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
you're not seeing anything
You’re not making any sort of argument about him being safe. You just keep saying you’re not 100% sure he was out, as if that matters. Play agnostic with the existence of God or something, but here on earth you have to do the best you can with the evidence at hand. And in this situation, the 99% certainty we have that McKenry tagged him is what we’re all going on.
by epoc on Jul 27, 2011 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This post is correct in oh so many ways.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
SB Nation Atlanta - "Pirates Vs. Braves: Atlanta Wins On Jerry Meals Blown Call"
http://atlanta.sbnation.com/atlanta-braves/2011/7/27/2296872/pirates-braves-jerry-meals-bad-call
Yes. we only see what we want to. That, or you’re the one person on Earth who is arguing this.
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
This is unambiguously wrong
I pointed each reason he should have been called out, and you admitted that you didn’t know either way on each point. And when those are combined in that situation, out is absolutely the correct call.
That’s in the rules? Where? That’s not a rule. A runner is safe until he is ruled out. Full stop.
Really? Baseball has no unwritten rules? Have you ever watched the sport? They only write down half of what counts as rules anyway.
The runner slid into the defender who was holding the ball. The defender tagged him and there is a small chance he slightly, slightly missed him. There is no way Jerry Meals, or you, or anyone else can determine that tag was not made. All available evidence points the the tag being made.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't going to wade into this again
but: “The runner slid INTO the defender …”
No, he didn’t. He slid AROUND McKenry. I don’t think it’s playing semantics to say you guys are seeing things that didn’t happen. If he had slid INTO McKenry, Lugo would have come to a full stop five feet from the plate and McKenry wouldn’t have had to swipe tag. Instead Lugo slid on past the swipe tag and stepped on the plate with his right heel. That’s when Meals called him safe.
Take every argument you made for the tag not being made. You can make it for his heel not touching the plate.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
This is not so...
…but even true its’ meaningless because Lugo then steps on the plate again afterward and is never tagged again.
Mangled that.
Let me try again…
Even if true, it is meanigless because Lugo subsequently steps on the plate again, but is never tagged again.
It's not meaningless
if Meals called him safe before he touched the plate.
That said, Meals does, in fact, turn his head to watch him touch the plate – he “saw” the touch just as much as he “saw” the [non]tag.
What???
How can a mitt be on both sides of his leg and not be touching him?
by Mr. E on Jul 27, 2011 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
There was a second runner
on the grassy knoll!
I CAN HAZ PAUL GOLDSCHMIDT?
by NotGuilty on Jul 27, 2011 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Awesome movie
you just made me feel a bit better
by dulciusXasperis on Jul 27, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
again
YOU DON’T NEED A CLEAR TAG IN THIS SITUATION!!!!!!!!!!
If it’s even 50/50 as to whether he tagged him, you call him out, because the throw beat him by five feet. That’s the only reasonable thing to do if you’re not sure whether there was a tag or not.
this.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2011 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
You know what else isn’t in the rules? The manager being able to set the lineup after he’s been tossed.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
He also tags him on the arm.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2011 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes it’s possible and it’s also possible he didn’t the video is inconclusive at best.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
How McKenry didn’t…I have no idea. That would have been my first reaction. Maybe knock some sense into him.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Aren't you guys glad that baseball chooses to preserve the "human element"????
Isn’t it great the baseball chooses to keep its integrity in place by not resorting to technology and let the entirety of games be decided by umpires?
If MLB wants to see the benefit of keeping the human element, they should look at international soccer/FIFA. Ask them how it’s going.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, cause FIFA and soccer are just losing fans left and right. This is part of the game. these things tend to even themselves out.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Except, instead of being even and feeling good because treated fairly, they’re even and pissed because they got screwed.
And still, it may not even out over a full season (see the “Pirates miss the playoffs by one game” argument).
So, yeah, those 30 seconds lost for a replay are not worth it, in either baseball or soccer.
by From France on Jul 27, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
My b on forgetting the part where I mentioned that FIFA is not making inroads in the US. Americans want fairness in their sports. If their team loses because they lose, that’s fine. If they lose because the umpire/ref made a bad call, they’re pissed. I’m not suggesting replay would have caused this call to be overturned (the NFL has taught me what indisputable evidence really means), but that it would at least calm some Pirates fans down.
Also, the blown goal call between England-Germany last year did cost FIFA some popularity. Not a sizable amount, but some.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
No other word is applicable other than absurd.
"What do we have here?"
"We're going to Saint Croix."
"We are? Oh, goody. I'm so happy."
"Well, I hope you're happy for us, because it's just Carrie and me."
"I see. Once again I humiliate myself by assuming that I'm a member of this family."
-Arthur and Doug, bantering about the Heffernan's vacation plans
I think
The Pirates are about to get hot. They’ll be so pissed off about this that they’ll scored 12 runs tonight and Maholm will pitch 7-8 scoreless innings to destroy the Braves.
Unbelievable
I’m literally sick to my stomach..that A-hole was squeezing Karstens way back in the early innnings too..F that prick..cant believe I watched for 6+ hours to have that duesch take this from us..NOOOOOOOOOOOO….gonna puke on my shoes.
The Office of the Commissioner of Baseball
Allan H. (Bud) Selig, Commissioner
Address: 245 Park Avenue, 31st Floor
City: New York, State: NY Zip Code: 10167
Phone: 212-931-7800
Fax: 212-949-5654
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:13 AM EDT reply actions
i like how
there is absolutly no mention of this game or the call in question on the four letter or mlb.com. classy
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:14 AM EDT reply actions
ESPN has already shown it three times.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
just got outta bed and i dont see it anywhere. just sayin
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been watching for a few hours. They showed it as soon as it happened, and then two more times after that.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Who called it that- Pittsburgh media? Because Yinzers think every call against their sports teams is the worst call in said history.
I’m now learning this.
David Schoenfield, at ESPN’s Sweet Spot blog. Maybe other commenters, I don’t know.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 27, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
ESPN called that. And, I’m really getting sick of this “Yinzer” crap. You don’t like “yinzers” then stay away.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Sorry Stitch. That is not aimed directly at you. It is aimed at the liberal use of the word Yinzer.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
I agree with this.
It’s incredibly classist and regionalist. For a community of mostly top notch discourse, many here are a bit too comfortable using that word — it’s predominantly used to denigrate working class people from this area. It’s basically saying that if you use Pittsburghese, you’re stupid.
From the thread with Hurdle’s purple face.
i’m a braves fan
and i legitimately feel sick. i can’t celebrate winning like that.
that was truly the worst call in baseball history. you’ve got a classic game between two teams in the playoff hunt, and you end it like that?
Put on your dancin' shoes.
This call has nothing to do with Galarraga's
It’s way worse, Galarraga missed an astonishing INDIVIDUAL performance due to a bad call…
We lost this game, Thank you
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 2:15 AM EDT reply actions
And when it was over.
Joyce admitted he screwed up the call, made mistake and was completely wrong.
Jerry Meals did nothing of the sort.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 27, 2011 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously not so clear as you claim. There appears to be a shadow on Lugos’s leg that runs from about his knee up his thigh that is longer than the glove in the catchers hand. If the glove were touching his leg the shadow would NOT be there it only exist if glove is placed above the leg.
It seems that some people are interpreting what I think is a shadow as the glove itself but since the picture is obviously a still from video it’s hard to say with certainty one way or another.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
There appears to be a shadow on Lugos’s leg that runs from about his knee up his thigh that is longer than the glove in the catchers hand.
Things often cast shadows that are longer than they themselves are. Example:
In spite of the length of the shadow, I can assure you that Mr. Woods is touching the ground.
If the glove were touching his leg the shadow would NOT be there it only exist if glove is placed above the leg.
1) The glove is above the leg, whether it’s touching the leg or not. (It is touching, BTW, in case you were unclear on that.)
2) The glove is wider at its widest point than it is at the point where it is touching the leg. Ergo, it casts a shadow down its entire length. Example:
The airplane’s body is wider than the part of the landing gear that’s touching the ground, so the plane casts a shadow on the ground down its entire length.
Physics is fun!
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think you can look at the body language on this play as well. We all know that there are fake outs in baseball that fielders use, an example from the same game where Uggla pretended to get the ball on the throw to second which tricked Walker when the throw actually went into Center.
The first thing I noticed was the Fort making the tag and then immediately looking up the third base line to hold any other runners. To me, that confidence is something you don’t see from players when they are trying to fool the umps. He knew he made the tag, knew he had more work to do and went about to do it. Otherwise he would have held the ball there, looked at the ump, all of those other tells that players in these situations usually use.
agreed
and Lugo’s body language doesn’t scream “HE MISSED ME!!!” either.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
From the movie
C’mon, Vlad, I thought you’d be right with me on that. Clint Eastwood movie, mid ‘80s, he’s sent to the USSR to steal this superplane that responds to the pilot’s thoughts, but only if he thinks… in Russian!
I’m guessing that the browser threw you off. Wrong kind of geekery.
yesh!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Why is McKenry
so far in front of the plate? When he has the ball he’s clearly allowed to block the plate. Then he wouldn’t have needed a swipe tag, he could have tackled Lugo and planted the ball in his forehead and left no doubt.
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2011 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, stop making retarded excuses for it and just accept that this was a blown call.
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
he's being fecious/sarcastic
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually I didn't even read the last part of his post, just the first couple sentences.
After tonight, it was enough to send me into blind rage. :D
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
the reason he's so far out
is that the bat was right there… he stepped in front and kicked it away… there was a recent game where a throw home in extra innings hit the bat in front of home and bounced up…
sorry, you can try to rationalize this all you want, its an awfully blown call…
Actually
the umpire moved the bat.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2011 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
you really
dont see Mckenry jump in front of the bat? I admit the umpire put it away after he did so, but that’s clearly the reason he did so… and very very smart too…
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah -
I meant the ump pulled it out of the way.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
i thought initially he kicked it away, but you’re right
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep.
this is really turning into a lot of hooey over what should be a “let’s move on” thing.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm assuming
that he thought it would be an easy play just to tag him. Better than getting bowled over in my opinion.
Bat in way
If you watch all the available clips or saw the game, you will see McKenry jump out of the way of the bat. That and the throw is why his positioning is where it is
Since we're all seeing what we want to
McKenry’s mitt is CUH-LEARY hovering 8 inches OVER Lugo’s leg.
Not a tag.
Yes it would have to be several inches above his leg to produce the elongated shadow that appears to be on Lugo’s leg.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Lugo being interviewed
and the Asshole acts like he was safe all along
Maybe we finally do need replay in baseball, because if this call had happened against the Yankees or Red Sox on in a postseason game, well . . .
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:19 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
MLB all the way
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Review policies require conclusive proof to over turn a call. I’ve yet to see it, not in the picture posted nor the video.
I’d bet anything that even if there were a review policy that call doesn’t get reversed.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve yet to see it, not in the picture posted nor the video.
Yes, but in fairness, you’re apparently just as blind as Meals.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
recd
I can’t tell if some of these guys are just trying to contrarian or what but I recd this because it was funny!
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
I changed my mind about instant replay after the Perfect Game* last year
This is certainly not doing anything to change that opinion.
This is worse.
It costed a borderline playoff team in a pennant race a win. At least the Tigers still won the perfect game game so in the grand scheme of things who cares, this actually matters in the standings.
"What do we have here?"
"We're going to Saint Croix."
"We are? Oh, goody. I'm so happy."
"Well, I hope you're happy for us, because it's just Carrie and me."
"I see. Once again I humiliate myself by assuming that I'm a member of this family."
-Arthur and Doug, bantering about the Heffernan's vacation plans
No interest in the human element
When the humans are this incompetent. You could very easily devise replay system that would involve an umpire in the booth and a monitor. Any close play that he thinks should be overturned could be in a few moments, via earpiece. No game should end like this, and I do believe there will be repercussions. He wanted to home, and I suspect that presumption will spur some apology, either from the crew chief or someone else. What is needed, which is an overhaul of the human element (an umpiring element that misses a third or more of close calls), will take another playoff screwup. This was just reprehensible, not only because the call was so bad, but because he didn’t have the guts to change the call and not a one of the other three would step in. Makes me sick.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
i doubt there wil be reprocusisons
and i highly doubt there will be any sort of apology from mlb or the crew. they will say thats the game, human element, blah blah blah go f yourselfs.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions
just like Beam
It’s almost eerie how this was so similar. Same team, almost same type of play. Hope this isn’t an omen. Meals should be fired.
Except Bream was clearly safe.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
by PensFan024 on Jul 27, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry guys
If it makes you feel better Jerry Meals has a long history of being a worthless human being whose only means of continued sustenance is to act as the parasite on the crotch of major league baseball. Really, Jerry Meals is the worst umpire in the whole major leagues whose only reason for continued employment is that the majority of his cohorts are equally as incompetent.
Hope you guys get that half blind asshole fired.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
thanks for your comment
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions
doesn't help tonight, but thank you,
I am sick of seeing games ‘decided’ by LIARS AND CHEATS…….
LIARS AND CHEATS=MLB Umpires.
can you tell I am slightly PO’ed?
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jul 27, 2011 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Guys, I didn’t see the game. How’d Steve Pearce do?
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 2:22 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Yes, sorry. That was sarcasm on my part. The guy sucks.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 2:27 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
glad you found this an appropriate time to chime in
and pat yourself on the back… you’re a big addition to this board… NOT
Weren’t you the guy lecturing me on the use of good sarcasm the other day? And that’s the best that you can come up with: ’You’re a big addition to this board…NOT’? I know it’s late, but that’s pretty lame, BurgherKing, pretty lame. Maybe sleep on it. Come up with something a little better.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 3:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
if i wasnt pissed about Jerry Meals' call
or cared about your trolling right now, i’d try. Glad we have another douche to deal with tonight.
I know you have a very important job patrolling the site for douches. Keep up the good work.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 3:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They say sarcasm is cheap fuel used by those with low self-esteem to feel good about themselves at the expense of others.
While I tend to disagree with that, I’m starting to see arguments against my disagreement.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
was not your comment intended to make you feel good about yourself at my expense?
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
So what? He was trying to condemn me for allegedly trying to make myself feel good at the expense of others and I asked him if he was not doing the same exact thing with his comment? What difference does it make if he was using sarcasm or not? Secondly, who in the fuck asked you? If you are going to interject yourself in someone else’s conversation, at least try to make your points make some sort of sense.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 6:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The guy sucks.
I’m going to be charitable and assume that this is also sarcasm.
Prado batted nine times tonight without reaching base once. Does he suck?
Yes. Only the last 10 at bats in a player’s career matter. Especially pitchers.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions
So their major league careers have been comparable—Martin Prado and Steve Pearce? Really? They’re both equally good? If your answer is yes, then we can end the conversation because I obviously don’t agree with you (nor does anyone from planet earth) and there’s nowhere else to go with this? If you’re answer is no, then I don’t understand your point.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 3:12 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If you’re answer is no, then I don’t understand your point.
My point is that contrary to your position, one hitless night does not make an otherwise productive player (like Pearce) a bad hitter.
everyone’s a tough guy behind a keyboard, huh? would you say such a thing to me if we were having this discussion in person? i’m guessing you would not. sites like these have, i fear, contributed to a breakdown in civility….anyway, why would you assume that i am basing my opinion on one hitless (actually, borderline-embarrassing) night? i know you think that you invented baseball, but i’ve followed the pirates since the mid-70’s and i’ve seen nearly every major-league game that steve pearce has played, and i just don’t see him as being any more useful a player than, say, brandon wood—a guy whose signing almost spurred several people on this site to commit homicide. in fact, if given the choice of the two, i’d take wood; i think he plays better defense and would ultimately hit for more power. but even if you would choose pearce, i don’t understand how the disparate treatment that the two players get here is warranted given their performances on the field. pearce is inundated with praise, but unless he’s playing major-league games in an alternative universe that only you mouth-breathing dorks can see (damn internet, i wouldn’t call you a ‘mouth-breathing dork’ in person), it simply isn’t justified by his performance in a pirate uniform.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
thanks, but you shouldn’t have written that. these guys are going to start calling you names. for a site supposedly devoted to statistical analysis, they seem to be rather big on personal attacks.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Pearce I'm willing to debate (though I think he's a good player)
Pedro, though?
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
would you say such a thing to me if we were having this discussion in person?
Yes, I would.
We can talk in person at next year’s Gathering, if you’d like. I always enjoy meeting new people.
anyway, why would you assume that i am basing my opinion on one hitless (actually, borderline-embarrassing) night?
I’m basing that position on your words in this post and this one. If that’s not what you meant, then you should try writing more clearly in the future.
i don’t understand how the disparate treatment that the two players get here is warranted given their performances on the field.
Pearce has a career 86 OPS+ in the majors, over 490 PA. Wood has a career 37 OPS+ in the majors, over 663 PA. 86 is higher than 37.
Pearce’s recent minor league numbers are also more impressive than Wood’s, once you account for park and league context.
Even in 2011 (to date), Pearce is out-hitting Wood, in spite of the fact that he’s gone 1-for-11 since coming off the DL (he’s probably still getting his timing back after the long layoff, though that’s just speculation on my part).
Wood has performed up to the standard of an adequate 25th man since coming to the Pirates this year. That represents tremendous improvement on his past performances, and is to his credit, but he still needs to show a significant amount of further improvement before he’s actually useful in any real sense of the word.
i wonder if the manager would agree that in the 100 or so games played by the pirates in 2011, steve pearce has been more helpful to the cause of the team than brandon wood has. i would tend to doubt it, but, as you say, that’s just speculation on my part. anyway, i don’t want to come across as if i’m selling brandon wood here. i would agree that he’s nothing more than an adequate 25th man. but pearce has been completely useless…i appreciate your critique of my writing ability and its supposed lack of clarity, but nothing you’ve offered demonstrates that i was basing my comments solely on last night’s game. pearce was unproductive last night; he’s also been unproductive throughout the bulk of his pirates career. so for you to suggest that my complaints about pearce are the equivalent of complaining about a bad night by an established hitter like prado, well, that was, frankly, asinine…..anyway, here’s the thing that interests me most: so you’re saying that if you believe something to be true and a person whom you don’t really know at all indicates that he doesn’t agree with you, you would say to that person’s face, ‘if you’re still having trouble understanding, i could speak more slowly’? i would imagine that you get punched in the face a lot, no? or are you just really, really big?
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
i wonder if the manager would agree that in the 100 or so games played by the pirates in 2011, steve pearce has been more helpful to the cause of the team than brandon wood has.
It’s hard for a player to be “helpful to the cause” when he’s on the disabled list.
I agree that Pearce would have been more useful this year if he hadn’t been hurt. He probably would have swiped Overbay’s job by now (at least on a temporary basis, pending the trade deadline), unless they made him the primary 3B during Pedro’s rehab.
anyway, here’s the thing that interests me most: so you’re saying that if you believe something to be true and a person whom you don’t really know at all indicates that he doesn’t agree with you, you would say to that person’s face, ‘if you’re still having trouble understanding, i could speak more slowly’? i would imagine that you get punched in the face a lot, no? or are you just really, really big?
I’m not particularly big or physically imposing, but I do tend to behave with a little more reckless disregard for my physical well-being than I probably should, and that might function as something of a deterrent with regard to actual fights once people notice.
I’m generally not enough of a dick to call a stranger a moron without provocation, but your posts in this thread were really pushing my buttons for some reason, and if I don’t go out looking for conflict I certainly don’t run away from it, either.
i wasn’t trying to push anyone’s buttons. it’s just that, if you haven’t guessed already, i don’t think pearce is a very good baseball player, and that belief that i have seems to be in stark contrast to all of the love that he seems to get around here. i try my best to understand it because, in general, it seems like a fairy intelligent group here. i just don’t see what they see. anyway, i think that it’s a rather large presumption on your part to say that, if healthy, pearce likely would have swiped someone’s job by now, considering that he never swiped anyone’s job in the previous three or four seasons that he has appeared on the major-league roster (a very bad major-league roster, at that).
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
also (and i don’t mean this in a snarky way), the ability to stay healthy is important. pearce hasn’t shown that he can do that—another negative.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
that's the most rational thing you've said yet
His injury history, much like Doumit’s, is definitely an issue.
everything that i’ve said up until this point has been rational, but thanks for your input.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
This is true.
He’d never had any really significant health issues before 2010, and neither of the ones he’s had since then should have many long-term consequences… but they are unfortunate, and they did potentially keep him from capitalizing on opportunities in that time.
i try my best to understand it because, in general, it seems like a fairy intelligent group here. i just don’t see what they see.
His offensive track record in the minors is very good, his performance in the majors over the last two years (with the exception of the last week) is good, and he’s an above-average glove at 1B or an average-ish one at 3B. Those are significant points in his favor, particularly for a minimum-salary player.
considering that he never swiped anyone’s job in the previous three or four seasons that he has appeared on the major-league roster (a very bad major-league roster, at that)
He isn’t allowed to promote himself over them by force of personal merit. He did, however, outplay several of them (most recently Overbay in 2011), which is about the most he can do under the circumstances.
Wood has been more useful than Pearce to the Pirates this year
Partly because Wood has been available for more games. He’s also hit slightly better than Pearce during his time with the Pirates (though he hit very poorly with the Angels, so he’s been worse overall this year).
However, the number of at-bats Pearce has had so far this year is very small and not necessarily a gauge of his true ability; over such a small number of at-bats any player can have hot or cold streaks, so his performance may not affect his true ability. So when judging Pearce’s talent, we should look at his entire track record, including his minor league performance. That suggests that Pearce is not completely useless. (In fact, even this year his performance has been above replacement level, suggesting he’s been more useful to the Pirates than the incumbent first baseman.) I’d argue that there are some signs that Wood has actually improved — mostly that we do have enough of a sample to know that his walk rate is up — though adequate 25th man seems about right. But that’s neither here nor there, if we’re talking about whether Pearce is useless.
The remark about getting punched in the face is completely out of line and borderline threatening.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 27, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d argue that there are some signs that Wood has actually improved…
If he hasn’t improved on defense, then I was way too hard on him in that respect before we picked him up. He’s looked darn good in the field.
The remark about getting punched in the face is completely out of line and borderline threatening.
Naw, it’s cool. I don’t think he meant it that way, and if he did, I take a punch pretty well…
it was not anywhere near threatening. if someone claims that he has no qualms about insulting strangers to their faces (i would be surprised if he actually did such things, but that’s what he said), i don’t see anything wrong with inquiring as to whether such behavior leads to him being met with some sort of physical response.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
So their major league careers have been comparable—Martin Prado and Steve Pearce? Really? They’re both equally good? If your answer is yes, then we can end the conversation because I obviously don’t agree with you (nor does anyone from planet earth) and there’s nowhere else to go with this? If your answer is no, then I don’t understand your point.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 3:12 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The point — Pearce’s last two years have been good. Let’s not let a bad ten at-bats throw him to the ground yet.
Of course, people will be irrational.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
my stance on pearce was not based on his 10 at bats since being activated, as evidenced by the comments that i made here last thursday before he was even recalled.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm soo mad
i can not even put it into words at the moment.
FIRE JERRY MEALS. REPLAY SHOULD BE FOR ANY CLOSE CALL
the bucs
have a couple of options. they can use this as something to ralley around or they can let this eat them up. with this team and hurdle, i doubt it will be option number two. that being said if they drop this series, loose a playoff spot, or a chance at breaking the streak because of this asshatt i will be highly pissed off
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:28 AM EDT reply actions
Please call this number: Phone: 212-931-7800
Its the MLB commisioners office number. I just left a message… kind of for lolz… but I figure if enough fans do it… It’ll annoy them… for the lolz
It’s kind of a weird message machine…
First question it asks you
Who are you trying to reach?
My answer: Bud Selig, commissioner of major league baseball
Second question:
Who is calling?
My answer: Zach, dejected Pittsburgh Pirates fan
Third question:
At what number can you be reached?
My answer: I don’t really care for a call back
Final question:
Why are you calling
My answer: I sincerely hope that Jerry Meals is seriously evaluated and at the very least is suspended from umpiring. What happened tonight was a travesty and the issue needs to be addressed.
by Zach Buccos on Jul 27, 2011 2:28 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
this derves to be a fanshot
so its up there, maybe i call him today during my travels. what a fucking crock
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions
sorry oldtimehockey09
but I think this deserves a a FanPost. Gotta be better than what the retarded mailman will post tomorrow…..
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jul 27, 2011 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ha!
…if he would only shut up…. the world would be clean, smart and smart and smart and smart and…….
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jul 27, 2011 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions
but hes a baseball guru dont you know
and rec’d for sheer awesomness
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
got to say, just as an aside
I am not much of a hockey fan (the ADHD of hockey overwhelms my ADD’d brain); but Slap Shot is, one of my most favorite movies ever……
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jul 27, 2011 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Posted the contact info upthread. Phone, address, and fax.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions
actually this is a good idea
another good thing might be to send them faxes (tcib posted a number up above— 212-949-5654)
if you have access to a machine, send a fax. Also, call… it wont help any directly
But it should annoy them enough. If everyone here spreads the word, I can see there being 10K faxes in the morning to MLB about this… that should bug them!
Instead of "evaluated"
I first read that word as “evacuated”. I’d be fine with either, or both… :-)
Ok, now to get this out of the way.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFARTS
Thank you Ned Colletti.
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
meals you friggin jagoff douche
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
Replace Jerry Meals with a cyborg!
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
I have seen and played in hundreds of thousands of games
In my life. Playing, coaching, and watching. Never in my life have I seen a worse call.
by bosten7 on Jul 27, 2011 2:32 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Closest I've seen
was when I was 14 and check-swung at a 2-2 pitch, fouling it off the other team’s dugout, and got called out on “bunting a ball foul”, ending the game and our rally. Until this, that was the shittiest call I’d ever seen. This destroys that, though.
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
a couple of things on the game, outside the blown call
[ 1 ] The suicide squeeze with one out in extra innings… goddammit Clint, at least trust that Paul can send a ball to the OF? I mean, chances of his GIDP is so low that its not worth worrying about… all he needed to do there was a reasonably deep flyball… mckenry isnt fast, but he isnt terrible either…
[ 2 ] I sincerely hope that the Lyle Overbay experiment is only waiting till Aug 1 to end. Gosh, its awful. I mean, with someone else (Hague/Pearce) we may not actually get better results, but you can at least work on things, or stick with it in the hope they make some adjustments. Overbay is cover-your-eyes-awful at the plate.
And Pearce ISN’T cover-your-eyes awful at the plate? I don’t get the Pearce kick, I really don’t.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 2:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
not if he's facing lefties
which is how he should be played, unless someone feels he’s made adjustments against RHP.
The data’s in front of you, and you choose to ignore it. I don’t get blind stupidity, I really don’t.
Let me ask you this: For how long a period would Pearce have to fail for you to admit that you’re wrong? Or could he continue to look foolish at the plate with no production for the rest of time and yet you still would cling to the idea that he’s a capable major-league player?
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 2:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the only failing right now is you
Here’s a link to pearce’s splits in his ML career, since you didnt bother apparently: Link
See the numbers v/s LHP as RHP? If that’s not good enough for you, then I’ll spend my time elsewhere, instead of a vacuous argument.
What part of half-of-a-platoon with Garrett Jones (or someone else) doesn’t make sense here? Even in the post above, I clearly mentioned facing lefties.
Don’t forget against righties too if ‘someone feels he’s making adjustments.’ I didn’t really see any of those tonight when he was constantly striking out on three pitches, but you have a keener eye than I do so perhaps you picked up on something when he was hacking at pitches a foot outside and in the dirt. Let me know.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 3:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yeah, and he came into the game to PH against a lefty. He wasn’t in there coz they wanted him playing righties— he was in there coz it was a 19 inning game. Geez, you click the link, dear? See the numbers against LHP? Whatcha think?
Stop. Wasting. Your. Time
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah
makes sense… i can usually ignore this kind of trolling. If i wasn’t pissed about the call, i wouldn’t bother with this guy… gonna quit on this one.
Yep, don’t feed’em !
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, he did come in against a lefty. That was a great at bat, huh? But perhaps all the time that he has spent trying to make adjustments against righties threw his timing off a little.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 3:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Do you really think I watched Steve Pearce play for the first time today and thought to myself, ‘Boy, this guy seems like a really bad baseball player?’ You don’t think I’ve come to my conclusion based on watching the parts of the four or five major league seasons that he has played when he hasn’t been out because he has injured himself somehow? Come on, give me a little more credit than that.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 3:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i'd give you credit if it seemed like you deserved any
Let me put it to you simpler: If Steve Pearce was playing primarily as RHH against LHP, do you think he is a legitimate major leaguer?
It depends on what you mean by ‘legitimate major leaguer.’ If that means ‘good major leaguer,’ then no. If it means ‘interchangeable scrub who fills out the 24th or 25th spot on the roster of a bad offensive team,’ then maybe (there are probably a few dozen of those guys in the major leagues), but that’s nothing to get excited about, certainly not to the extent that many people on this site appeared to be excited when Pearce’s return from his injury rehab was imminent. Can the guy hit LHP pitching? If 150 or so major-league at bats is proof of anything, I guess he’s not completely overmatched. But is it worth keeping him on the team when, like last night, he might also be forced into a situation where he has to face a lot of RHP, against whom he is COMPLETELY overmatched? Ideally, the answer would be no….But look, no team is perfect. No one’s going to have 25 guys headed for the hall of fame. But to treat this guy as anything more than the marginal player that he is is laughable.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 6:45 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How would you describe Mccutchen at the plate?
“almost completely overmatched?”
Pearce vs lhp .890 OPS
Cutch in career year .855 OPS
Yeah, I’m sensing some inconsistencies in your opinion
That isn’t what I said, but let me try and get this straight: You’re now not only comparing Pearce favorably with McCutchen, but you’re also insinuating that in some ways he is, in fact, better than McCutchen? Wow, this is really some site. I’d be interested in getting both Pearce’s and McCutchen’s takes on that point though. And also anyone who’s ever watched a baseball game.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 6:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
let me try and get this straight: You’re now not only comparing Pearce favorably with McCutchen, but you’re also insinuating that in some ways he is, in fact, better than McCutchen?
No, but nice try on setting up and attacking a strawman. He was pointing out the fallacy in your statement that Pearce is not completely overmatched against LHP, by showing that his numbers against LHP are very good and compare with other very good players.
Wow, this is really some site.
I am certain you’d be welcome on other more learned sites.
I’d be interested in getting both Pearce’s and McCutchen’s takes on that point though. And also anyone who’s ever watched a baseball game.
Good luck. We await the results with bated breath.
What fallacy? I said that based on his relatively small number of at bats, Pearce doesn’t seem to be overmatched against left-handers. Your friend chimed in with numbers suggesting that against LHP, Pearce is actually better than McCutchen. So are you or are you not saying that, at least against a left-handed pitcher, you’d rather have Pearce up there instead of McCutchen in an important game situation? Because the numbers offered by your friend would suggest that you would, correct? .890 vs. .855 or something like that. Or because they only involve 150 or so ABs, is the lesson that we should perhaps not make any definitive pronouncements about that player? I’m just trying to understand what people are saying through all of their hostility. I guess as an aside, I should ask: Why are everyone here such dicks? I just showed up to talk a little baseball.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 8:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No, I'm saying Pearce is as effective against LHP
as Cutch is against all pitching. Which, ya know, statistics and reality back me up on.
and for the record
Cutch is even better against lefties than Pearce is. As for SSS, I don’t have Pearce’s exact minor league splits in front of me but I’m quite sure he’s mashed lefties there as well.
Do you really think I watched Steve Pearce play for the first time today and thought to myself, ‘Boy, this guy seems like a really bad baseball player?’
Based on your comments in this thread, I’m thinking that you’ve never watched a baseball game before.
more mean stuff from you. that’s too bad. i was hoping that we could be friends.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
i was hoping that we could be friends.
Eh, never say never.
I’m sure that you’ve watched Pearce play before, as you say. I just don’t think that your assessment of his skills is particularly accurate, given the evidence. That would suggest, in turn, that you aren’t a particularly skilled observer of the game, but as long as the Pirates aren’t paying you to scout for them, that’s not really any concern of mine.
and i would suggest that it is your assessment of his skills that is not particularly accurate, given the evidence (the evidence being the playing of baseball on a field). and, it follows, that it is you who is not yet a particularly skilled observer of the game. but i’m guessing that while i was spending my time reading over the bill james abstract as a teenager in the 80s, you were still pissing in the sandbox (or, more likely, not even yet a glint in your parents’ eyes). all of which is to say that there is still hope for you, my man. with time comes wisdom. but if i were you i’d scale back on the meanness if you really want someone to listen to what you have to say.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
but i’m guessing that while i was spending my time reading over the bill james abstract as a teenager in the 80s, you were still pissing in the sandbox
I read my first abstract in ‘88, when I was nine. It was a library copy, since I didn’t have a lot of money back then, being nine and all.
I thought it was OK, but didn’t love it or find it transformative (though I might get more out of it now if I went back and re-read it). The first James book I really loved was his Hall of Fame book, The Politics of Glory – found a $1 copy in a remainder shop in ’94.
We did have a sandbox when I was a kid, but I don’t recall ever pissing in it.
but if i were you i’d scale back on the meanness if you really want someone to listen to what you have to say.
A fair point. I probably shouldn’t have jumped down on you as hard as I did – I’m angry at Meals for screwing us, and it’s kind of leaking out in my other interactions today.
the first bill james abstract that i read was in 1982—could that be possible?—when i would have been 13. anyway, i didn’t share that in an attempt to suggest that it was the final word on anything. i just didn’t want you to think that just because i didn’t agree with you that meant that i had no knowledge or understanding of sabermetrics. i go back with it a long way. but i still don’t think pearce helps much.
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
And Pearce ISN’T cover-your-eyes awful at the plate?
Nope.
You’re probably thinking of someone else, who doesn’t play as well as Pearce.
You gotta be fucking kidding me, man. Do you actually watch the games that he plays when he hasn’t been out injuring himself? (By the way, do people say ‘fuck’ here? Is that inappropriate? If so, I apologize.)
by ChefAutomatic on Jul 27, 2011 3:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The suicide squeeze with one out in extra innings… goddammit Clint, at least trust that Paul can send a ball to the OF? I mean, chances of his GIDP is so low that its not worth worrying about… all he needed to do there was a reasonably deep flyball… mckenry isnt fast, but he isnt terrible either…
This is probably the worst decision Hurdle has made all year in my book.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Here is Jerry Meals totally cool explanation for what happened... He's totally off the hook now.
He says “I saw the tag” meanders for about 20 words then says “I didn’t see the tag”
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions
ha totall bullshit
at least man up and admit you screwed the pouch you friggin tool
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions
He needs to learn from Jim Joyce.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions
bingo
that guy gets mad props because he knows he screwd up. this firgging guy….argh
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions
apparently he is blind
that explains the balls and strike calls he made. mclouth and gonzales got tossed by this tool. he is everything that is wrong with the umpires. he needs to be removed
I was happy when they got tossed but those were awfully quick ejections. Meals seems like a piece of garbage.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Nate had already been jawing earlier in the game
Anytime you turn around and yell demonstratively at the ump… not a good idea
that excuse
The PuertoRican Kid
by Kobe:The Legend on Jul 27, 2011 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So...
…. Meals just said; ‘yeah I totally got this wrong, so what are you gonna do about it??’
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jul 27, 2011 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Blame Meals all you want....
But didn’t the Pirates have a runner at 3rd in the 9th and Clint Hurdle tried to bunt him in?
I dunno, I didn’t watch the game. I just got home from a late night BS session with my cousin….
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
ha totall bullshit
at least man up and admit you screwed the pouch you friggin tool
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions
reply fail
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions
That suicide squeeze would've worked
if the batter had made contact with the ball.
Plus, obviously, the man at third would’ve only had to approach home and get tagged out to be called safe.
So, if we hadn’t made it blindingly obvious we were going to attempt a squeeze, resulting in a pitchout?
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions
but Clint's possible failings
did not end the game, either way. If it would I’d might rail on him for it, or maybe not depending on my momentary mood; but the egregious failures of the MLB umpires, over the last three years or so, are just awful.
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jul 27, 2011 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Jennifer Langosch just tweeted that D-Cutch was scheduled to not pitch tonight
Wow. Absolute props and hats off to him. A 100% herculean effort by the guy. Not even just his pitching, in his two at bats he showed more hustle down the line then Lyle Overbay has ever shown. He has really come so far from being a fringe roster guy that we thought so little of. Proud of him.
Google image Jerry Meals. He has a lot of pictures during arguments with players/coaches. Must be a habit.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 2:45 AM EDT reply actions
Trivia question: Who is this ?
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 2:48 AM EDT reply actions
a moron
who tonight should probably hope he doesnt get a game in pnc park
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Very sleepy.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 27, 2011 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Its such bullcrap
I hate Jerry Meals almost as much as I hate Randy Marsh after the 92 NLCS
Randy Marsh
Randy effing Marsh.
RANDY EFFING FREAKING MARSH!!!
That name inevitably causes me to go into a fit of rage.
Does that make Joyce a giant turd?
At least Joyce apologized, though. Infinite respect from me to him for that.
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
heh
even cutch saw he was out and he’s in frggin CENTER FUCKING FIELD!
“Can I say that he was out? Is that legal?” McCutchen asked, adding he saw the tag.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:54 AM EDT reply actions
I thought that quote was from D Cutch.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions
my bad
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
If there was ever an argument for five-man umpiring crews—with one in the booth, overseeing replay to correct mistakes— it was just made
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions
c_singleton Chris Singleton
Jerry Meals is going to have to be evaluated/suspended after that call. Sorry but that has to be “unacceptable”. #braves #pirates #mlb
and guess who the third base ump is tonight…this outta be intresting
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions
im in atlanta...
i saw the game. im going tomorrow. all of my beer purchases will be thrown at meals. dont even care if i get kicked out. he is a joke to mlb
throw something harder
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 4:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t waste beer.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll just leave this here...
the commissioner’s office: 212-931-7800
MLB president and chief operating officer
Executive vice president of MLB
www.stealingfirstbase.com
by Stealing First Base on Jul 27, 2011 3:00 AM EDT reply actions
ooooohhhh email
nice…
I’d recommend sending 2 emails btw… the first one containing the regular complaint, and after he sets up a filter for that, another that spells the name as J E R R Y M E A L S.
my email
Dear Respected MLB officials,
After watching what was a brilliant display of baseball for almost 7 hours I was treated to one of the worst calls and saddest endings to a baseball game in the history of the sport. There is no justification at this point for Jerry Meals’s call at home on Julio Lugo. There is no reason that this game should have ended in that way. The human error and the purity of baseball that you folks hold up as a shield to criticism just got destroyed by a cannon blast from the Jolly Roger. Explain to me as a fan how something like this can just be waved off as the right call, and how there is no way for the Pittsburgh Pirates as an organization to protest said call. This is far worse then the shenanigans that cost a good man a perfect game, this is in the middle of a pennant race as well as a wild card race, and this greatly affected the standings in both. There is no justification, no reason that replay can not be instituted on key play in a game. bang bang plays are always going to be there and those calls will always be questioned but when we are talking about high leverage situations regarding plays at any of the bases there should be replay.
You, your Head of Officiating, and the rest of MLB that has anything to do with the oversight of officals should be asshamed of yourselves.
and i spelled two words wrong…nice…ffs
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 4:13 AM EDT up reply actions
?
The video clip is still on the MLB.com game recap. Called “Braves walkoff in 19th”
by Central*Scrutinizer on Jul 27, 2011 4:00 AM EDT up reply actions
it was pulled down for about an hour
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 4:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Tons of respect for Jim Joyce after tonight, especially after reading Meals response
Here is the response: http://markbowman.mlblogs.com/2011/07/27/meals-explanation-of-his-game-ending-safe-call/
When Jim Joyce blew that call for Galagarra he knew he blew it from the second he saw that replay. The man had teared in his eyes as he admitted he cost him a perfect game. Everyone respected him for manning up in such a way. The nation. The Tigers. Even Galaragga. But I simply cannot accept Meals to be a decent human being. He is making excuses for his fuck up that he simply knows that he made. I have zero respect for him. I hope that man has kids, so he can go home to them and they’ll know that their father fucked up in such an egregious manner and is a spineless jackass. I hope the world treats this man differently knowing how badly he messed up, but more importantly, his complete lack of spine.
even keith friggin law give a good ol wtf
keithlaw
@keithlaw keithlaw
The best part of that play was when Lugo detached his own leg so that his body was never technically tagged
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 3:09 AM EDT reply actions
glad to see the bucs are looking like they are going to use this as a ralelying cry
@LangoschMLB Jenifer Langosch
Jeff Karstens trying to be diplomatic: “For some reason, somebody didn’t want us to play anymore. So the game was ended.”
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Law doesn’t hate the Pirates. He’s an honest broker, and people give him far too much shit when he takes a position against us.
Just thinking about the "Pine Tar Homerun Game".
In that case, they called George Brett out, when in fact he hit a home run. MLB overturned the umpire’s stupid decision and they had to resume the game about a month later. Why not do the same thing here? Protest the game and try to get it overturned and then start the game back up again where it left off?
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
Hearing they can't protest the game...
…not sure why, but that’s what all the baseball people on Twitter were saying.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
In order to protest
You have to argue that the umpire interpreted the rules incorrectly. You can’t protest what MLB calls a “judgment call”, even if it’s blatantly wrong. The umpire can miss as many calls as he wants as long as he knows how to read.
The MB does not operate on logic and precedence. The MLB operates only on the whim of the Selig.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes!!!
The Player Haters were my favorite part of Chappelle’s Show. I’d like to see the full “Time Haters” episode someday…
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m gonna go home and put some water in Buck Nasty’s momma’s dish.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Purple Clint Hurdle
Saying Hurdle was about to turn purple literally is not a hyperbole… look for youself:
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/7/27/2296863/this-is-a-purple-clint-hurdle
Honestly, I wish he took a swing at him. No joke. The man deserved to be punched.
hahah
i was telling myself the whole time…how on earth is hurdle not pushing this guy up againt the railing and bitching at him. i would consider putting mckenry on one side, dcutch on the other so meals had no where to move lol
strike?
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 3:26 AM EDT up reply actions
what are the consequences...
for actually hitting an ump?
We have a new worst call ever
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/14246/we-have-a-new-worst-call-ever
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 27, 2011 3:24 AM EDT reply actions
Jenn Langosch on twitter:
“Never seen the #Pirates clubhouse so fired up. Ever. Plenty of reaction on that game-ending call to come shortly.”
Good maybe they can use the injustice of this incident as a stepping stone. A sort of “Us vs. the entire world, including the umpires.”
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 27, 2011 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions
yup
add in the fact that danimal and a few others had to be held back from the umps as they were walking off the feild and this could be really interesting from here on out
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 4:01 AM EDT up reply actions
maybe...
this whole situation can piss off the #Pirates so bad that they end up demolishing every team until the end of season, just so the jokes on every1 else then.
It’s a shame they can’t get as fired up about their hitting.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
What really sucks about this...
You can see for a flash second that McKenry was about to attempt to gun a throw to first to turn the double play. What nobody is pointing out (and rightfully so because this call overshadows it) is that Proctor took a wicked face plant out of the box. If McKenry gets the call in a quick manner like he should of and quickly realizes D-Cutch was signaling him to gun it to first, like it appears he was, inning over.
by Zach Buccos on Jul 27, 2011 3:28 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It also makes sense why McKenry did the swipe tag. It seems quicker and easier to turn the DP by doing that tag instead of any other.
And if the DP is turned, we’re spending this thread discussing the hilarity of Proctor’s faceplant.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
we still can...
that face plant was awwwwwwwwwesome!!!!!
by white angus on Jul 27, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Typical ESPN Comments....
“Talk to me when it’s the playoffs or the Pirates lose the Central by one game, then I might care. Botched calls happen. What do you expect??”
“How many Pirates “fans” would have been here whining about the call last year when they sucked?"
“i just hope pirates fans do not use this as an excuse when they do not make the playoffs”
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
and your suprised how?
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Didn't say I was surprised.
In fact, I was pretty disappointed by the expected and completely normal level of stupid there.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 27, 2011 3:41 AM EDT up reply actions
it didn't happen to the yankees or red sox
therefore, they do not care
I'd like to know...
… what happens when the Braves win the wild card by a game over the Brewers, Cardinals or D-Backs…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 27, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe your loss will make Selig change the instant replay rules?
Oh, wait, no, that’ll never happen.
I can’t feel sorry enough for you folks over here, especially knowing your suffering will be entirely in vain as nothing ever changes.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Hey now...
We can put 16 teams in one league and 14 in the other. We can put Milwaukee in the National League and then two decades later put the Astros in the American League. We can have inter league, we can add more playoffs.
But instant replay is attacking the traditional human dynamic of the game. We can’t have that.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 27, 2011 3:54 AM EDT up reply actions
according to Paul Zeise...
The final play was somewhat controversial…
what happened?
I can't believe they let Zeise in the locker room
I heard him during Hurdle’s pregame and he found the worst possible way to phrase a question. He was trying to ask if Hurdle was disappointed in the offensive performance. Instead of just phrasing it like that he said something like “Don’t you have to put a lot of the blame on the offense for not scoring any runs against that guy who just came up from the minors and the other guy who had an ERA of like 20 his 4 games?”
Tomorrows Hedline should read
“Braves beat Bucs on worst use of human judgement since Eve”
by bosten7 on Jul 27, 2011 4:13 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Braves steal on from bucs, Meals found to be on the OJ jury
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 27, 2011 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions
someones gotta take a cheapshot...
im never usually really a big fan of cheapshots, but something is gonna go down tomorrow. and prob about the only instance where id totally be cool with that. meals will be the 3B coach. but im sure mlb will be cowards and have someone else be the ump there. they wont apologize to the pirates or anything.
Mike Leake is sad. Meals is bad. There’s a difference.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Meals will be umping at 3rd tonight
Perhaps this will motivate Pedro to start driving the ball to the opposite field.
Pete Rose is banned from baseball because any connection an MLB player has with gambling damages “the integrity of the game”.
Funny; I would think blatantly incorrect calls by umpires would also be viewed as damaging the integrity of the game – but no, they’re “part of the traditional human element”.
Lugo was safe!
Sincerely,
Ray Charles
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brush her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
I really hope Hurdle earns how to make out a lineup card so his offense could score enough runs to make last night’s call a non-event.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
hahahahahahaha
troll.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2011 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Im glad I went to bed...
I can’t afford a new tv. Worst call in a long time. In defense to the umpire they had 19 innings to put more runs. Pirates missed many chances. I hope they win tonight and tomorrow. Braves catcher McCann will join chipper. Maholm needs to go deep.
by Joey Mooney on Jul 27, 2011 7:55 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I went to bed and missed it
and, uh, it probably was my fault for posting the overflow at the wrong time.
I have to give mlb.com credit — this is currently the top story, with the headline “Braves get call, top Bucs at home,” and with the picture showing Lugo out by a mile. It may not be much, but it’s better than the old hockey playoffs where the announcers weren’t allowed to criticize the officials. I stopped caring about hockey after the ‘96 playoffs when the Panthers kept dragging Mario down from behind, the officials didn’t do a damn thing about it, and the announcers didn’t say a damn thing.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 27, 2011 8:55 AM EDT reply actions
I don’t know what bothers me more, the call, or Lugo celebrating the way he did. That man is one of the worst players to ever play the game.
Well, behind Overbay.
What should bother us all in that the front office continues to sit on its hands and not make a sorely need move to acquire a replacement for Overbay.
Score a few more runs once in a while and there’s no need to fret over what happens in the 19th inning of a game or speculate about a different out come in he gets the call right.
Say he gets the call correctly, is there any reason at all to believe that miserable excuse of a lineup could score if they played 20 inning, or 25 or 50 more innings? I seriously doubt it.
I said this past weekend if they made the right move before the Cardinal series and Steve Pearce got any significant playing time they’d go 3-7 and probably fall out of contention… guess what.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude, stop it.
There’s plenty of time to make a move. And this idea that the FO is sitting on its hands is just ridiculous.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
Yeah — trades aren’t being made. Obviously the front office is lounging around.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
psshhh
http://www.ci.huntington-beach.ca.us/
You think he got a beach named after him through hard work?
And if you had invented hoverboards instead of sitting on your thumbs
I could be watching Hoverball instead of this dreadful offense.
Actually I had forgotten that
Perhaps we should come up with an All-Wife-Beater team. Giles, of course, hits cleanup.
Giles, of course, hits when she doesn’t cleanup.
FTFY
Put on your dancin' shoes.
by PensFan024 on Jul 27, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Other than Lugo, the only active players I can think of are Derek Lowe, Brett Myers, and Milton Bradley. Plus Ramon Castro as a rapist, though he wasn’t involved with the lady in question until he raped her.
Among past players, there’s Bobby Chouinard, Elijah Dukes, and Wil Cordero. Mike DiFelice got arrested for this a few years back, but I’m not sure whether that really qualifies or not.
Def qualifies
Feeling up the body builder is assault on its own, but the lighter thing crosses into abuse (you can try to tell yourself that a grope counts as flirting, but flaming desire is a metaphor). The followup with the male valet is just the icing on the abusive asshole cake.
We’re up to 10 men for our All-Women-Haters club; a little heavy on pitchers and catchers (there’s a battery joke in here somewhere).
Bonds’ girlfriend said he threatened to kill her; does that count? Also, wasn’t there a ballplayer who put a GPS unit on his ex’s car?
Bonds’ girlfriend said he threatened to kill her; does that count?
Personally, I don’t find her credible, but you’re welcome to disagree. Not like we’ll ever know one way or the other on that one.
Also, wasn’t there a ballplayer who put a GPS unit on his ex’s car?
Albert Belle. I don’t think he ever actually hit her, though. Just acted creepy and stalkerish.
Kirby Puckett (allegedly) once cut through a locked door with a power saw in order to get to an ex-girlfriend. That’s pretty bad.
I would def. include terrorizing
Although I suppose that Belle, technically, wasn’t trying to instill fear so much as to keep track. Don’t recall what, if any, other actions he took.
We need more infielders, is the thing. We can include Chico Lind if we include just generally creepy behavior, but I think that would be a bit unfair to him.
I thought he was found naked
could be mistaken, though…
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry Charlie but you're just wrong.
Sure the call was bad but to say they lost the game because of it is absurd. They lost the game because even in 19 inning this offense still can’t score more than three runs, even if he gets the call right is there any reason to expect them to be able to score or is more likely it just mean Steve Pearce goes 0-10 and Lyle Overbay 1-12?
When the Pirates were taking series by scoring a total of 4 runs the entire series the bad calls were going their way, now that they’re not it’s all part of the regression to the mean we all knew was coming.
They lost this game because the offense is inept and the front office failed to do it’s job heading into this current 10 game stretch.
Here Neal I even did your job for you and found your cheap solution; A big slugging, first baseman who walks a lot but hasn’t hit for average, not unlike Carlos Pena, in KC named Kila Ka’aihue. The Royals are going to lose him after this season as he’ll be a minor league free agent and he’s fallen behind Hosmer and Butler on the Royals depth chart so if Huntington offers any sort of prospect for him he can probably be had.
He’s ready to step in and drop a bunch of home runs in the river behind McCutchen … now go get him and stop your sniveling and blame shifting.
Probably not worth replying, but
Didn’t the playoff-bound Braves also fail to score more than 3 runsª in 19 innings?
ª counting only runs that actually scored safely. As has been noted, had the correct call been made, McKenry gets the batter out at 1st as well, 19th inning over.
Yes except that it’s the exception for the Braves and not the rule for them as it is the Pirates.
I just hate to break it to the fans but luck and the calls can’t always be on your side and the tougher the schedule gets the worse it’s going to get if the front office doesn’t get a move on… NOW!
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
That wasn't a bad luck call...
…It was a bad call.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
youve decided on slamming the FRONT OFFICE for this?
when the only 2 players who have been moved in MLB have been Betemit and Gomes?
are you kidding me?
Actually I called them on this in the off-season when I was critical of them not having made serious offers to Berkman and Pena and avoid this whole trading line quagmire in the first place. There are players out their who can be had that could help without having to pay a fortune but they seem committed to players who’d name recognition is above and beyond their actual value to the team.
I’ve already named one, Huntington got none.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions
dude
stop being a god damn f’ing moron. this has nothing to do with overbay and the FO. Im sick and tired of this shit on BD for the past few weeks. this game was blown in part to the UMP, NOT LYLE F’ING OVERPAID. We all know overbay sucks, and NH has made it clear they are looking to upgrade, but stop with the BS about the front office needing to make a move NOW. They will by Sunday, holy fucking shit. Get a clue.
Im not normally like this but Im just tired of dumbass remarks, seriously, get a fucking clue.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
You’re wrong, it has everything to do with Overbay and the front office. Bad calls are part of the game, sometimes they go your way sometimes they don’t. If the team is taking care of the business in the areas they have control these events are meaningless, but they’re not so its importance is blown out of proportion.
If the Neal Huntington had made a serious offer to Lance Berkman in the off season and everything else stayed the same the Pirates would be 4 or 5 game up in first place and nobody would care about a blow call in a 19 inning game. But he didn’t so now they’re scraping by in every game and every series trying to hold on while fans come to expect the starters will continuously throw shutouts and the team to win series where they average 1.3 runs a game.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
so where were you at back in april calling for all this to happen?! gee wiz if only we had upgraded our offense before the start of the season we might be undefeated right now.
no one could have expected Berkmans outburst, so dont go cherry picking players that in hindsight would be huge upgrades. we also average 3.9 runs a game, again, get a clue.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
What you don’t realize is that by acquiring better players, you magically obtain the ability to overcome bad calls. Because having Lance Berkman meant Jerry Meals would not have been tired.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
If the Neal Huntington had made a serious offer to Lance Berkman in the off season…
He would have signed with St. Louis anyway, because free agents didn’t (and probably still don’t) want to come here, even when our offer is the highest on the board.
Seriously
I still think the general claim is a bit oversold (although I"m aware there’s a lot of examples), but Berkman is an incredibly clear case: what could the Pirates have offered him that would be more desirable than what the Cards could? OK, playing 1st instead of RF. But the guy’s career earnings were $94M before this year; do you think that $10M to play for a presumptive last place team would have won out over $8M for a presumptive division winner?
How do you know
NH didn’t make a serious offer to Berkman? The Pirates have said they tried to bring in other guys this offseason but some guys didn’t want to play in Pittsburgh. That was one reason they wound up with Overbay — he didn’t mind coming here
by gorillagogo on Jul 27, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure the call was bad but to say they lost the game because of it is absurd.
If the call had been made correctly, the game would have continued. Ergo, they lost the game because of the call. The call led directly to the premature ending of the game. Etc.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 27, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
rec’d
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jul 27, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
You think Steve Pearce sucks but you want Kila Ka’aihue?
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Jul 27, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
flagged
troll.
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jul 27, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh, I know this is the Two Minute Hate
But could I get a quick description of the hit in Karstens’ bad inning that went off Neil’s glove and into RF? Should he have made it? Would, say, Freddy Sanchez (i.e., a good but not great 2B) have made it?
I like Neil, but reading that play description on mobile Gameday made me a little queasy.
If I recall correctly, it was a diving attempt in the hole that he just couldn’t come up with. Definitely not an easy play. I don’t think Freddy would’ve made it any more frequently than NW.
That said, I think Walker looked pretty terrible at 2b last night on a couple of plays.
If I’m remembering the right play (19 innings, I’m not sure at this point) then it was a play to Walker’s left, a fairly firm bounding ball that he retreated on, he only got about four/five steps and no dive was needed. The ball kind of hopped weird and was off his glove into the outfield. I think a good second baseman makes it. I think Walker probably makes it most of the time.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Jul 27, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Did Meals creat a new word for his explaination?
Oled? I didnt think that was an actual word. Merriam and Webster’s Word of the year entry.
He was making a comparison to bullfighting, when the matador waves his cape in front of the bull and shouts “Ole!” I.e. implying that McKenry didn’t actually touch Lugo with the glove.
I know that but still didnt know that was a word
i think hes missing an L at the beginning.
lOled
In Case anyone wants to hear what every broadcast had to say about the game and one of the best angles
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=17335331
I think when the first radio broadcast comes on it has the best angle
Right there, see the replay starting at 1:44
In slow motion, IF McKenry tags him, it’s barely a brush. I’m just not going to hang Meals for that. I don’t know how anyone can look at that replay, in slow motion, and say Meals “blew” the call. Got it wrong, debateable (again, if someone saw cloth move in their high-def setup, I’ll take their word), but “blew” it? In real time, full speed. Jesus, let’s go back to complaining, rightly, about bunting with all our goddammed power hitters.
The Pirates have power hitters, do tell?
You’re exactly right though, in the prior 18.1 innings you can point everything from poor decisions to bunt and shift made by Hurdle to failures to perform by hitters and fielders that could have lead to a different out come.
The only people doing their jobs properly on this team right now are the Pitchers and Andrew McCutchen.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m just not going to hang Meals for that.
Fine. More hanging for the rest of us, then.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
SteveG
I am with Bucdaddy and Azibuck.
The first time I saw the play when I woke up this morning, I thought to myself that McKenry had missed the tag.
Watching it over and over again, and especially in slow motion, I think he did ‘probably’ nick Lugo’s leg, but that doesn change the fact that the first time, at full speed, it looks like he either did, or very well might have missed him.
All the crap about, ‘you always make that call out if it’s that close’ and ‘phantom tags’ is not in the rules. The ump should call what he sees, period.and I really can’t say I blame Meals for seeing a missed tag there.
And that’s the part that is being brushed aside. The execution and technique of McKenry on that play were really, really, really bad. He could have left no doubt about the call had he applied the tag more definitively. As a former college catcher, this was one of the first fundamentals you learn…that you APPLY the tag to the runner at home, not sweep tag.
Blown call? Probably. Worst call ever? Not even close.
by SteveG on Jul 27, 2011 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
ridiculous, and i tell you why...
the play was not a “bang-bang”. it was a good 4 feet off the plate. plus mckenry was about to try and turn a double play since Proctor face planted on his way to first.
mckenry did nothing wrong
You can vigorously assert...
…that it’s ridiculous all you like, but that doesn’t make it true.
I don’t care if it’s 20 feet from the plate, if it appears that the tag is missed and that’s what the umpire sees, you don’t call him out. Proximity to the plate is meaningless.
And I don’t care if McKenry was trying to turn a double play or not, he applied the tag poorly. Even Pat at WHGAVS points this out (while still agreeing with your overall point).
There is just no getting around the fact that, 4 feet away or not, impending double play or not, McKenry applied a poor tag, and at full speed first viewing (which is all the umpire has), it sure looks possible that the tag was missed.
But it didn’t appear from any conceivable angle that he missed, even at normal speed. There is no defense of this, but good on you for the attempt. I guess.
I just disagree...
…and I’ve seen others say the same thing.
At full speed, first viewing, my thought was that he missed him. I actually said that out loud when I saw it first thing this morning, before I read a single word about the controversy.
In retrospect, after viewing it over and over, from ‘every conceivable angle’, I think I was ‘probably’ wrong, but that doesn’t change the fact that at least a few of us (including and most importantly the ump) saw a missed tag the first time.
If you want to posit that as an argument for replay, I am probably with you, but it doesn’t change the fact that while it was probably an incorrect call, it wasn’t blown, and is pretty understandable at least in my eyes.
You can vigorously assert… …that it’s ridiculous all you like, but that doesn’t make it true.
No, but the fact that it’s self-evidently true does.
…at full speed first viewing (which is all the umpire has), it sure looks possible that the tag was missed.
If it’s so hard to tell, then why did all the independent observers from both Pittsburgh and Atlanta immediately determine on first viewing of the play that Meals screwed up?
It's most definetely NOT...
…self-evidently true, as proven by the fact that more than a few people are agreeing that it looked like a possible missed tag, at least at full speed, first viewing. Thus, the discussion.
If it’s so hard to tell, then why did all the independent observers from both Pittsburgh and Atlanta immediately determine on first viewing of the play that Meals screwed up?
As the play develops, it just looks like he MUST be out, and people can’t see how he couldn’t be. But if you watch the actual tag, minus all the ‘how far he was up the line’, ‘McKenry was getting ready to turn a double play’, ‘they always call that kind of play out at second’, ‘phantom tag’, ‘in the area’….nonsense, and you focus JUST on the tag, it’s really not that obvious, and it really is hard to see if he clearly tagged him or not.
Put all the other stuff aside (including what everyone else is saying), and look just at the tag alone. Can you really say that it’s unambiguously clear that he tagged him?
Yes.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 27, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I want to point this out one last time.
After a lot of review, in retrospect, I ‘probably’ agree. But even then, the tag itself is most definitely not that clear. Folks are arguing things like ‘Look, see there…at :24 secs into the video, his pants move slightly when the glove hits it’
That is not the kind of evidence one offers of a clear, unambiguous applied tag that should be easily seen at full speed without a review.
The point is that it's subjective...
…what is clear to some is not clear to others.
The further point is that at least some folks can see what the ump saw (or didn’t see).
What is your point?
my point is that out of the national media, pittsburgh media, atlanta media, all of the pirates, all of the braves (except lugo), and everyone else on here, you names 4 people that think it wasn’t a ridiculous call. what exactly more would it take for you to change your opinion that he touched his knee?
I'll say it again...
…At this point I do think he probably touched his knee.
But that’s after viewing it a number of times at different speeds, and seeing still frames. Even at that, I don’t think it’s totally clear in regards to the tag alone.
As it was happening, my thoughts where something like…
Oh man, that dude is going to be out by a mile for sure….uh oh, I think McKenry missed the tag.
And I am not totally shocked that the ump saw the same thing.
well, I think it's a matter of removing every shadow of a doubt
To give you an analogy, let’s say you say “I saw Joe Bloggs walking down the street yesterday” (assuming you know what Joe Bloggs looks like). I say “Are you sure it was him?” You say “Yes, it was plain as day, he walked right by me. It was obviously Joe Bloggs.” I say, “Do you know he doesn’t have an identical twin?” You grumble a little, google a little for information on Joe Bloggs, and say, “See here, this article says he’s an only child.” I say, “Well, it wasn’t obviously Joe Bloggs, you didn’t know he didn’t have an identical twin until you looked it up.” You would have the right to say, “Yes, it was obvious, I just looked him up to remove that doubt you raised.”
I think that’s what’s happening with the talk about his uniform moving. It looked like he was out by basically every normal standard — the throw beat him by a mile, McKenry put his glove on him a foot before he reached the plate. Now someone raises the doubt, “But what if McKenry’s glove didn’t actually hit him?” I think that’s pretty farfetched looking at the replays — but we can actually disprove even that possibility by looking at where his uniform moves. He’s still obviously out — we didn’t need to see his uniform move to know he was out, it just removes that one last vestige of doubt.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 27, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Bad analogy
Because I’ve been saying all along that my own thought from the moment I saw the play was that he missed the tag. In other words I agreed with the ump.
In your analogy. I am saying that I did NOT see Joe Bloggs, and your telling me I did. You show me some footage from a surveillance camera showing Joe Bloggs walking down the street at about the time you said he was. Well I have to say your probably right that it was him, but initially I didn’t think it was.
I can't...
…and neither did the ump at the time, or bucdaddy, or azibuck. So…it’s a subjective call.
Thus the ump goes with what he sees, and while it’s probably incorrect in retrospect, it’s not some atrocious travesty that it’s being made out to be.
It’s most definetely NOT self-evidently true, as proven by the fact that more than a few people are agreeing that it looked like a possible missed tag, at least at full speed, first viewing.
By that standard, nothing is self-evidently true. We didn’t walk on the moon. The Holocaust never happened. Evolution is a fraud. Etc.
Put all the other stuff aside (including what everyone else is saying), and look just at the tag alone. Can you really say that it’s unambiguously clear that he tagged him?
Yes, I can. I did it earlier in the thread, and I’d be glad to do it again.
Evolution is a fraud.
Well, there IS Jerry Meals.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
By that standard, nothing is self-evidently true. We didn’t walk on the moon. The Holocaust never happened. Evolution is a fraud. Etc.
I don’t think that word means what you think it means.
Something that is self-evident is something that requires no proof to be accepted. None of the items you mention are even remotely in the category of being self-evident. In fact the application of the term to any of them makes almost no sense at all.
That doesn’t speak to the ultimate truth of any of them one way or the other, but they are certainly not even remotely self-evident.
Very few things, if any are self evident, and proof from self-evidence is generally considered fallacious in discussions such as these.
The fact that people are arguing over the evidence of this incident and looking to prove their point does in fact, as I stated, mean that it is NOT self-evident.
Yes, I can. I did it earlier in the thread, and I’d be glad to do it again
No, no you didn’t. I read your take, and I wasn’t convinced that it was clear. The more I watch it the less sure I become of whether he tagged him or not. You may be self-satisfied with your take, but it’s not convinced anyone that I am aware of.
Technically, Vlad should have said “evidently” rather than “self-evidently.” “Self-evidently” refers to things that provide conclusive proof, and that at most only applies to “I think therefore I am” and some related things (since the fact that you are thinking allows you to know that you’re thinking, arguably). Whereas “evidently” refers to things that clearly follow from the available evidence.
But because self-evidence is so rare, people usually use “self-evident” to mean “evident” in ordinary parlance.
(Have you studied epistemology, too, SteveG? Sounds like you’re familiar with a lot of the terminology.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 27, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I haven't studied it at a univesity level...
…or anything of that nature. I just enjoy reading philosophy, theology, psychology and others of the ‘softer’ sciences for fun. I guess that has probably given me a decent grounding.
Yes
From thw live broadcast, from every replay angle, from every still photo showing Lugo in motion with the mitt resting on his leg and from every reaction by the principals.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
by RichieHebner on Jul 27, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
But it DIDN'T appear the tag was missed....
And he didn’t miss it. Sure, he just brushed him, but if anything, it LOOKED better than what it actually was.
Still, a tag is a tag is a tag. And that was a tag.
My mind is bottled by the attempt to defend Meals here. Blown call. Pure and simple.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
It's not McKenry's faul the ump blew the call
It was a good tag and woulda been a DP. To sit there and dive into the runner would have been idiotic and that’s how runners get extra bases all the time
Rec'd every post bucdaddy made
I didn’t watch in high-def, but I think Meals’ explanation is plausible. If McKenry tagged him, and I kinda think he did, if was not much of a tag. In fact it was a slight brush of a tag. In real time, could Meals have not seen “movement” on Lugo’s uniform? Sure, I think it’s possible. It wasn’t a clear tag, not even close.
I believe there are bad calls and incorrect calls. This may have been an incorrect call, but it was not a bad call.
And some of the “reasons” given for why Lugo should be called out are laughable. Yes, “most” of the time if the throw is there and a semblance of a tag is made, out is called. But that is not a rule, or even a guideline for umpiring. Meals didn’t see a tag, in real time, at full speed. He saw a swipe, and the runner touched the plate. He called safe.
While I respect your opinon i completely disagree
Every professional sport has a scoring review policy. MLB does not. Therefore it fails to provide the fairest product possible. Like you said you couldn’t see it in real time. If only we had a way to review the play and slow it down in real time to make the correct call. I guess you can call me a dreamer for thinking about something like that though.
Fair enough, see my reply to you just above on the MLB.com replay
No reply needed, that’s just me calling it how I see it, too.
I’m not against a scoring review either, esp. if it’s like hockey.
I think it should be exactly like hockey. I even think football should do that too.
Have one person sit upstairs and review the play if somethings fishy buzz em.
I think the biggest problem here, like i said is that theres no way to review a scoring play. Thus creating the possibility for a championship to be determined improperly while the ability to fix it is readily available and is being ignored due to pride.
Totally agree
NFL’s replay system is ponderous.
I’m willing to allow that there may not be a definitive angle on every play, but yeah, all the players should have stayed on the field, knowing that a review was coming, just like hockey. Refs and umps should accept it too. It’s not a knock on them. It’s a concession to the speed of these games, players, and ball and pucks.
All the review policies also require convincing or indisputable evidence to over rule a call already made. As others have stated already, a slow motion frame by frame replay suggests he MAY have nicked his leg with a swipe… we’ll never know but I doubt even a replay rule gets that call over turned.
by UncleDirtNap on Jul 27, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
He saw a swipe, and the runner touched the plate. He called safe.
You’ve got your sequence wrong. He saw a swipe, he called safe, and then the runner touched the plate.
Which is yet another reason that people are upset about the call.
The second part...
…of this clip shows pretty well that his right foot is on the plate as he pops up from his slide prior to the safe call.
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/670132/HomeTag2.gif.opt.gif
Wrong.
Once again, you guys aren’t seeing what’s there.
Swipe tag attempt.
Lugo bounces up out of slide, turns to look at the ump and backs up, stepping on the plate with his right heel.
Meals calls safe.
Lugo steps on the plate again, probably because he doesn’t realize he already did. I have seen umpires make a sort of “safe” sign when a runner misses the plate AND the catcher misses the tag, indicating that everything is still in play.
Vlad, I’m wading into treacherous waters debating you, but when you guys continue to see things that didn’t happen and not see things that did, it throws the validity of the rest of your argument into question.
Lugo bounces up out of slide, turns to look at the ump and backs up, stepping on the plate with his right heel.
I think that in the first angle, he stepped near the plate but not on it, which is why he went back and re-touched it. If he did touch the plate, it was a pure accident on his part.
What does accident have to do with it?
If he touched the plate? Seriously? You know why I’m taking delight in you being so crazy-blind here? Because it’s not like you. I expect more from you.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2011_07_26_pitmlb_atlmlb_1&mode=recap_away&c_id=pit
If you don’t see MOST OF HIS FOOT land on the plate at 1:40 of that video, you’re blind, stupid, or just trolling.
I have met Vlad personally
and he is not blind …
…
…
…
Hah! Just kidding, fella!
If you didn’t see a tag being made on Lugo’s shin, you’re either blind, stupid or just trolling.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
by ryebr3ad on Jul 27, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, he definitely touched the plate, but the tag was made like 4 feet in front of that.
Maybe everyone is just blind, stupid, and trolling?
Having an existential crisis in 3… 2… 1…
Thus Spake Bluecheerathustra
Apropos of this point how?
I’ve never said a tag wasn’t made. Now, in fact, I’m quite certain there was a tag. But as I’ve said elsewhere, the manner of the tag, as done in real time, did not make this such a horrendous call that most are making this out to be. And people saying stuff like ‘Lugo didn’t touch the plate,’ or “he was called safe before he touched the plate” are fantasy. It’s also quite clear many here have no grasp whatsoever of the rulebook. Some comments strike me as akin to “tie goes to the runner”, which (in wording) does not exist in the MLB or NFHS, or probably any other formal American baseball rule book. The fact that the throw was there way early, that “the neighborhood play” gets called, or that McKenry and moreso Lugo reacted the way they did are all completely irrelevant.
You all admit he made the tag
who cares if he mayy have looked safe from some angle. I’m sure he looked safe from the moon too. What matters is he was out and you admit that, so the ump clearly effed up.
I admit he made the tag after seeing several angles in slow motion
Clearly, the ump ought to have been able to do the same in real time, full speed, after working for 19 innings.
Not to defend the call, but...
There was a close play over the weekend where a Cardinal player was called safe, and it looked like the only possible reason was that McKenry swept him with his forearm instead of the glove. I’m thinking that the umpires might have a book on McKenry’s tags, or at least might have seen the play from the weekend.
Again, not defending the call. It looks to me like McKenry tagged Lugo’s leg hard enough to move it several inches.
by sanny manguillen on Jul 27, 2011 9:36 AM EDT reply actions
Side note if Old Man Lugo wasnt afraid of running into the bring wall of the fort
the fort wouldnt have had to tag him out he would have stood Lugo up at the plate.
side note
according to my calculations, there were 3883 comments left on 5 game threads last night. that’s gotta be an SBN record
Looking back on it after a few hours' sleep, I still think the Fort made contact on the tag-barely.
It should’ve been an out, but McKenry could’ve done a better job.
I didn’t care much for Meals’ job performance last night, but the Braves got screwed on a number of pitch calls too.
If we win tonight, all will be fine with the world.
パトリック
Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I hate the “blame McKenry” portion. His job is to touch the runner with his glove then look for the next play (which would have been an out at 1st)… he doesn’t get extra points for touching harder. he should expect the ump to not be a joke.
by CoryR on Jul 27, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1 for "doesn't get extra points"
If they wanted to attract more of the football demographic, though…
i also think
and this gets underplayed, that McKenry was as far in front as he was because he jumped out in front of the bat which was dropped in front of HP, which was a v good decision because a low throw might have bounced off the bat… I think otherwise, he’d have been much closer to the plate.
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone can’t have it both ways. Due to recent injuries, there has been a lot of emphasis on catcher safety. As a result, catchers have to make tags like McKenry did to avoid being run over. You can’t emphasize catcher safety and have McKenry hold the fort there (pun intended). Either the MLB cuts down on hits to the catcher in the rulebook, or they get better umps and more leniency to the catcher on those kinds of calls.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i compare this so called phantom tag to when a 1Bman pulls his foot off the bag at the same time he catches the relay
99% of the time, its an out, unless its a blatant miss… last night was not a blatant miss.
by white angus on Jul 27, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been trying to figure out the best way to compare the tag last night to turns at 2nd on DPs. You can see the SS will sometimes slide behind the bag, bringing his foot close the bag but not actually touching it. It’s still called an out. McKenry’s tag was close to Lugo’s leg (when I say close, I mean his glove touched Lugo’s leg) in much the same fashion.
It’s not a great comp, but it’s similar enough for me.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
And hey! Pedro has has two errors in two games and 5 strike outs in 10 at bats! Yay!
There was a reason he was asssigned to Triple A, and it wasn’t injury or to “get focused.” He obviously didn’t get that message.
I don't know what "message" you are talking about...
but it’s becoming clear they brought him back too soon. His approach was horrible last night. Looked like a completely different hitter from the night before. It’s like he makes up his mind that he is going to swing at certain pitches instead of seeing a pitch to hit and hitting it. I really liked his approach in game one, in this one…not so much. Curious to see how things play out over the next couple of weeks.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Slick
I haven’t been impressed at all with Alvarez, but then again, I didn’t expect much from him. In a better world for the Bucs with fewer injuries, Alvarez would probably be at AAA for much longer, maybe til Sep. And after the season, he would head to Fl. over the winter to learn to play 1B.
On the other hand, to be fair, most players last night did a ton of whiffing at the plate. Let’s see Alvarez in the next two games, hopefully only 9 innings and Pirate victories.
パトリック
Game one approach
His approach in the first game was fine – the first two at bats. But the swinging at ball four in the dirt and the completely whiffing on strike three in the dirt is a bad sign.
Either Pedro is just guessing up there, or I’m concerned about his pitch recognition. Where is the power? He’s still trying to pull every pitch, honestly it just looks ugly, really really ugly. There are little to no signs he is going to be a major league power hitter.
alvarez' swing does look different
his arms look looser with the bat on his shoulder, and he doesnt wrap the bat around his head when he starts his swing.
but yes, he looks like hes guessing out there. but so are Overbay, Jones, and a few others.
by white angus on Jul 27, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
but yes, he looks like hes guessing out there.
and guessing VERY wrong
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
as is Jones, and Paul, and sometimes McKenry
i dont put Pearce or Overbay in this category. I dont think Pearce has a good swing, and Overbay just cant catch up to certain pitches.
by white angus on Jul 27, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd like to see
Jones just go up there, see the ball and hit it. He is guessing himself out of at bats. He’s clearly trying hard—too hard. He looked distraught in the dugout after lining out to center.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
by RichieHebner on Jul 27, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
jones was the same way most of last season too.
just like overbay, hes playing himself out of pittsburgh
Horrific call...
But an even more horror-inducing offensive performance. Overbay was something like 1-9. Alvarez had the game in his hands, all he needed was a single in the 16th ot 17th to go up two runs and he swings at the first pitch for a fly/line out to center.
you single out Overbay on this one?
the only guy who didnt strikeout and had more than 2 hits was McKenry.
fine, rip Overbay for the 1000th time, but the whole team looked bad at the plate.
2 extra base hits in 19 innings!!! TWO!
by white angus on Jul 27, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
here's to hoping
XP was taken aside and talked to for pulling his bat back on the squeeze play — he needed to do ANYTHING IN HIS POWER to get a bat on that ball.
Of everything that happened (even the call at the end), XP’s brain fart was inexcusable.
Fundamental baseball.
It was a pitch out. What could he have done? Outside of go-go-gadget-arms I just don’t see how he could have got to that one.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
you don't get it
he pulled the bat back — he did NOTHING.
As a batter, when a suicide squeeze is called….you do ANYTHING IN YOUR POWER to break up the pitch-out. He did not do that, and as such did not do his job.
Look at Neil Walker’s AB (was that 2 nights ago?)
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Neil Walker go-go-gadget-armsed a few days ago...
I seem to recall he got the bat on the ball while a hit and run was on and a pitchout came. I’m not saying XP should have been able to do this though, but such things are not unheard of.
he should have at least ATTEMPTED to do something
he pulled his bat back and left McKenry completely out to dry.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s the different. Walker’s was a hit and run, providing him the ability to actually make the attempt to reach out with the at. XP was already showing bunt when the pitch out came, with hips turned and all. Physically he couldn’t have done anything else other than trying to reach out with what he had. If it were a hit and run and he had the ability to extend, then I could see your point, but I don’t put that play on XP. The Braves obviously read the play.
the point is
XP did not reach out for anything.
He pulled the bat back and took a ball, leaving McKenry completely out to dry.
You learn that you do whatever you can to disrupt the pitch out….and pulling the bat back is the one thing you learn NOT to do. You don’t concern yourself with where the ball ends up, only that the catcher does not catch that ball.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Well next time a foul ball is popped up behind the catcher I’ll for the batter to keep his bat in the path of the catcher, because that’s exactly the same thing you’re saying. That pitch was so far outside that while your argument in theory is correct, it is moot on this specific instance.
If XP had waived at it and missed the ball completely….I would not say a word about this. If he had thrown the bat at the ball and missed it, I would not have said a word. Actually, I would have said something…I would applaud his effort.
He made no effort, and there is the lack of execution of fundamental baseball — he pulled the bat back.
Maybe he couldn’t have gotten to that ball….I’m saying he didn’t even try. THAT is the poor fundamental baseball. You don’t know that he couldn’t have done something to hit that ball…because he didn’t even try.
If you want to argue he couldn’t have done anything with that pitch…fine. My argument is that he didn’t even TRY, and as such failed in his execution of a suicide squeeze.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
You might argue that the chance of his hitting the ball was so small that it was more valuable to make sure he had a ball rather than a strike called on him.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 27, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm arguing that it is his job to protect that runner at 3B
regardless if it’s a ball or strike, or where the ball is located.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
He did reach out
and when he saw the pitch was, literally, behind the opposite batter’s box, he pulled back, presumably figuring he might as well get the Ball call.
I had the same immediate reaction, but as I watched the replays, I simply don’t see how he could have gotten to the ball, short of flinging his body across the plate, which I think is illegal (not sarcasm; I don’t know for sure it’s illegal).
well
can’t batters take bad swings and fall across the plate? They do all the time.
I believe you cannot have a foot down on the plate, or across the plate, at the time of contact. So if you throw your body across with the bat…and your foot has not contacted the plate or across the plate at time of contact, you’re alright?
I’ve seen it done before on squeeze bunts…but like you, am not 100% sure of the specifics.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I suspect they'd call him out on intent
I mean, it’s one thing to swing out of your shoes and stagger, it’s quite another to basically perform a moving pick.
But yeah, I’d be curious to know the governing rule.
hold up
I am not saying to set a moving pick — perhaps I’m being misunderstood.
I’m saying you extend yourself straight across the plate when you see the ball going that way. Body extension + bat and arm extension should give you decent reach.
Hell, I’d even argue that if the catcher stepped FORWARD and impeded your bat from hitting the ball…you could look for catcher’s interference (?).
I’m not looking for any sort of body pick, just for the bat to make contact with the ball and deflect it in some way, shape or form.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Can someone do the math to figure out if it was even physically possible for XP to fully extend and even tip the ball foul?
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
It wasn’t. He was positioned to bunt. Not the same mobility available to extend yourself across the plate.
I’m talking about if he hadn’t even squared around. Like normal swinging position when he would have had full flexibility to do it. If he couldn’t do it then, he couldn’t do it while preparing for a bunt.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think so either. When the McCann caught the pitch out he was outside the opposite batters box as well.
Some people are just rehashing their glory days.
I was at the bar when that happened, so I don’t remember the pitch location that well. I thought it was a lot closer to the plate than that.
And I’m on his side for the fact that on suicide squeezes, you have to get the bat on the ball. Of course, that’s because I didn’t one time in Little League on a ball that nearly hit my feet. Got chewed out for it.
Whether or not it was even physically possible is another story and one I cannot prove. Yet.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Just watched it again
McCann was moving out, but the pitch itself was more or less down the middle of the opposite batter’s box. That would put it 24" from the outside edge of home plate. Assume a 36" bat for Paul (probably shorter), left hand at least 12" up the handle (probably 15"), meaning that the tip of the bat is no more than 24" from his left hand. In that position, can he get his left hand past the outside corner of the plate? Conceivably, but I think it’s really, really unlikely that he can actually get wood on it – he’d be stabbing at a 90+ MPH pitch that’s literally two feet outside the strike zone.
I understand that the complaint is that he didn’t try, but I can only assume that he viewed it as completely futile. I’d be curious to hear him explain it, though.
So the best thing he could have done was lunge (I’m not sure how long his arms are) and potentially hit off the tip of the bat. Which may have worked. Or he could have popped it up. Or he could have fouled it off. Like I said, I agree with sanity’s main point, but am not sure if it’s entirely physically possible.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
nice breakdown
Please keep in mind, IMO, even a slight deflection of that ball (making it a foul ball) would save McKenry.
It really would be great to hear XP’s take, though.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to add
I was trying to use the best-case numbers up there; if his bat is shorter, if his hand is farther up the handle, if the pitch is another couple inches outside, he would have needed to literally put his left hand into the opposite batter’s box. From what I’ve seen, it’s rare for bunters to be able to even contact pitches that far outside.
Also: 0.458 seconds to try to make this adjustment. That may actually have more to do with it than anything: Paul wasn’t drag bunting, but insofar as his weight was less than perfectly balanced, it would be tending towards 1B. So now he needs to recognize the pitch, shift his weight, and lunge in a totally weird way; not surprising if he viewed it as effectively impossible.
Put it this way: if this pitch is literally 5’ off the plate, we agree that there’s be no point in Paul offering, right? So, at some point, Paul is justified in at least hoping to save the strike, if not the batter. The question is where that point is.
Also
Why didn’t Wood move up on that? It (presumably) wouldn’t have made a difference, but a runner on 2B sure sounds better to me.
Maybe I missed it at the time
We talked about it at the bar, but maybe the little icon that shows baserunners wasn’t updated in a timely fashion.
I don’t think it was — a couple of posters made the comment during the game too.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
he did (?)
He was on 2B..unless he stole 2nd and I missed it
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't mean to suggest that
I know you were just having him try to get wood on the ball, but I think it was so far out that he only does it with a full-body lunge, that then has a lot more to do with interfering than with a legit attempt at contact.
If he succeeds at fouling the ball without stepping on the plate or in the other batter’s box, then he has a shot at not getting called out, but that’s a lot of contingencies.
worst case, what?
Intereference on XP — he’s out and runners return to 1B and 3B?
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Then why not just hit the catcher with your bat?
I’m not even kidding. If doing something flagrantly against the rules (like stepping on home plate) effectively gives you a do-over for your baserunner, wouldn’t that be actually taught to players?
I’m not inferring he step on the plate.
Stand up. Pretend you’re bunting from the left side of the plate — with your left foot on-or-near the chalk on the inside corner. The batter is well balanced, and typically keeps some weight on his left foot (in that instance).
Now, you recognize a pitch way outside — keep in mind they have far better recognition and reactions than us — how far can you lunge and reach, keeping your left foot on that line long enough to strain to make contact?
I am 6’ tall, and I can reach pretty damn far. I’m not talking swinging…I’m talking putting the bat in the path of the ball.
Now, just TRYING to do that…I tried harder than XP.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
CAN"T WE ALL AGREE
that the play should’ve been called off once the Braves saw X Paul squinting down at the 3B coach and then they called timeout and the C went to the mound?
This was a screwup by Hurdle et al.
Whether X Paul could’ve made contact with a pitchout a few feet off the plate is debatable. The coaching foulup, to my mind, is not.
パトリック
can anyone tell me
who Ed Bouchette is for the Post-Gazette?
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
cool
at least I have a football guy (along with John Wehner) agreeing with me.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s not saying that XP had to lay down a perfect bunt or anything, just get contact somehow.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I initially thought the same thing, but the pitch was clear in the other batter’s box. Did you want him to jump across the plate and try making contact? There was nothing he could have done outside of the reach he did attempt.
you're sadly mistaken
He pulled the bat back — he did not reach AT ALL.
Poor fundamental baseball on a suicide squeeze — very poor.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
It would have made no difference. The pitch was so far off the plate. What do you propose, insanity?
Should he have launched the bat at the catcher and interfered with him? There was no way for him to make contact with the ball with the bat in his hand.
The real screwup was the Pirates not calling off the squeeze after X Paul had stared at the 3B coach for 10 seconds and then the Braves callled a TO after guessing what was on and making the right play to get the out.
パトリック
how the hell do you know
that it would have made no difference?
HE DID NOT EVEN TRY. That fact is the entire point I’m making — he did not do ANYTHING to try to break the pitch up. As a batter in that situation, you have 1 job — put the bat on the ball. According to you, because it was a pitch-out he had NO job on that play — that’s not fundamental baseball.
Look at Walker a few nights ago — hit-and-run, his job was to do whatever he could to try to put his bat on the ball. He swung at a pitch-out and put a weak grounder in play to advance the runner. I guess, per your logic, it was a pitch-out and he should have just taken the pitch? I mean, hell, how was he supposed to put his bat on that ball? Well he did, and XP could have tried. He didn’t.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
The damn ball was several feet off the plate. It would have been BEHIND him
if he were a right-handed batter.
“According to you, because it was a pitch-out he had NO job on that play — that’s not fundamental baseball”
I never said that he had “no job” there. To make any attempt to touch the ball would’ve required XP to literally throw the bat. He was put into an impossible situation.
Walker made contact with the ball BECAUSE the pitch was too close to the plate on a pitchout. X Paul had no chance to do so-PERIOD.
The play should have been called off. Don’t blame the players, blame the coaches.
パトリック
we can agree to disagree
XP pulled the bat back. He did not even try to do his job. That is my problem with the play.
If you’re fine with him pulling the bat back, so be it. I’m not — he didn’t make any effort, and that’s against what I was always taught…and how I believe the game should be played.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Back in high school I could throw this ball over those mountains.
You’re preaching about fundamentals and the perfect scenario. That obviously was not the perfect scenario.
Based on your passion for this subject, if you were at the plate for that at bat, you would have been fine being the dumbass who jumps across home plate to the opposite batter’s box just to get contact with the ball and not pull back, blah blah blah, instead of having it be a play that was read clear as day and the coaches admitting they messed up, which I’m sure Hurdle said “Shit XP, my bad.” But seeing you called for a riculous interference call like that would be more rewarding, for you and everyone watching.
wow
“blah blah blah” and “dumbass” — nice come backs
I’m not arguing that it wasn’t bad call, or that the call should have been taken off when the time out was called by Atlanta.
I’ve seen squeeze plays where a pitch out was thrown…and have seen batters find ways to deflect the ball without having “interference” called — maybe I’ve seen a little more baseball than you, I don’t know.
So while I would be a “dumbass” who tries to make chicken salad out of chicken shit, I can plainly see that you’d stand in the box, pull the bat back, and then have your mommy tell the rest of the fans that it wasn’t “her little boy’s fault” the coach had him squeeze during a pitch out — this “dumbass” decides to take the responsibility on his shoulders, while you apparently deflect it when convenient.
Sometimes coaches make great calls and put their team in great positions to win. Sometimes coaches do stupid things and the players have to bail them out — it happens all the time. Sure, you can make the case it was a shitty call and put XP in a bad spot. I still believe XP could have done much more than pull the bat back.
by insane_sanity on Jul 27, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
You eat chicken shit?
And no, I wouldn’t deflect responsibility. I would say hey, the pitch was too far out, I know I couldn’t get to it and didn’t want to get called for interference. That was my decision. Because the pitche was 10 feet away from me!
And clearly I’m the only one here saying this too.
there's actually anothere possibility...
The Bucs took the squeeze play OFF, and McKenry missed the new sign. Would explain some of it.
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
There is only one word to describe this game
Travishamockery
by nagihcimwolves50 on Jul 27, 2011 11:17 AM EDT reply actions
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get some fucking mechanical devices calling shit from now on because umpires are the worst “refs” compared to any sport. They’re too full of themselves, hold way too much bias, and no one can overrule what any ump says.
by dulciusXasperis on Jul 27, 2011 11:20 AM EDT reply actions
The Pirates have reportedly protested the call. It won’t go anywhere, but, well, I’ll just repeat what I posted at onlybucs:
I think it’s important that they file the protest, just to make MLB and the umpires take notice that they expect to be taken seriously. I’ve been convinced for years that the umps often blow the Pirates off on key calls and consistently screw them on balls and strikes. They need to let everybody know that they’re a competitive team now and may even have a chance at the post-season, and they deserve to play on a level playing field.
And I don’t think this is just me being a Pirates fan. I’ve been reading a book called “Scorecasting.” It’s basically a combined statistical and psychological examination of many issues in sports. One chapter is on the home field advantage, which exists in every major sport. They conclude that it’s almost entirely the result of officials being influenced by the crowd. The statistical evidence they compile is impressive and extremely convincing, and goes into remarkable detail. For instance, the authors found that some soccer stadiums in Germany have the stands set far back from the field because they’re also track stadiums and have the running track between the field and the stands. Sure enough, the home team on fields like that get less favorable calls than home teams in stadiums where the fans are closer to the action. They also looked at a situation in Italy where, due to fan violence, a number of soccer games were played with no crowds. The bias in officials’ calls disappeared in those games. Attendance levels also affect the officiating.
The Pirates have, until now, typically played before small crowds at home with lots of visiting fans. On the road, it’s a different story. I think that’s strongly affected the umpiring they’ve gotten, and I’m convinced that the general perception of them as a joke contributes to it. Just like Hurdle seems to have instilled an attitude that the games matter, they need to put MLB and its increasingly incompetent umps on notice that they expect to be taken seriously.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Agree completely
Making some noise about this might get them some breaks the remainder of the season.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
by RichieHebner on Jul 27, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Correct me if I'm wrong (HAH!)
but didn’t we benefit earlier this year from a trapped ball that was called an out, or vice versa, and that helped us win a game? (And yes, most or all of us at the time admitted it was a blown call that went in our favor.)
Karma boomerang, is all I’m sayin’.
Jerry Meals
makes me think of this now
Back... and to the left...
back… and to the left… back… and to the left…
Ugh, abysmal call and a heart-wrenching way to lose.
The Pittsburgh Pirates or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Loss
Silver lining time:
we are getting a ton of press out of this and most if not all are sympathetic to what happened to us. And they keep throwing in how we are in a pennant race and potential ramifications.
This is good press.
Amazing the media attention this is getting.
We have a waiting area at work with a TV. I walked through this morning and the ladies on the View were talking about it. Bux squandered numerous chances—-clearly blame for this one has to go around. Talk about an anticlimatic ending—- having invested a good chunk of my life to the game last night, that’s what pissed me off more than actual result. The way it ended was an injustice, moreso than the result.
by Horace Clarke on Jul 27, 2011 12:02 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Agreed
I’ve told people repeatedly today that, knowing now what I didn’t know then, I would have much preferred missing the game entirely and just hearing after the fact that we lost in 19 innings.
Being involved in a 19-inning game is a badge of honor. Losing a 19-inning game is unfortunate, but you know you’ve been in a close fight that either team could win. But losing a 19-inning game… like that, with the actions on the field not equating to the final score… is just too painful for words.
I am so completely hung up on this
that I can’t work at all right now. I feel like I have to say something but don’t know what would really describe the situation properly. All I can think of (and I’m sorry if it already came up somewhere in the 3000 other comments) is that if Jerry Meals had called Lugo out at home would anybody have protested it? Lugo? The Braves? The announcers? To be honest, it was such a clear play that I’m not sure Root Sports would even have shown a replay.
by KentuckyPirate on Jul 27, 2011 12:15 PM EDT reply actions
Very good point
There’s no way anyone complains, or anyone looks at slow-mo and freeze frames to argue that the tag was missed.
The first time I saw the play was the Braves announcers, and it’s striking how completely incredulous they are. Like, not even happy at their good fortune, the way announcers often are when a dubious call goes the home team’s way, but reacting more or less the way we have. Not furious, of course, but with little to no doubt in their minds that the call was blown. After watching the replay, they continued to feel that way.
Slight revision
I was actually going to check on the suicide squeeze, but I ended up seeing The Tag again, and I misdescribed the Atlanta announcers’ reaction. It was surprise, a bit of incredulity, then mild happiness (much less than you’d normally see after such a game), then, they watch the replay. And when they watch the replay, it’s like they’re seeing someone get hit by a car. I think one of them shouted, “Oh! The humanity!”
I touched it coach,
I touched it coach…come on Alex its the championship game!
Lugo: “He tagged me, he tagged me coach”
The Braves should forfeit today…
Another voice of support.
I’m a lifelong, die-hard Cub fan from Chicago. My wife is a lifelong, die-hard Bucs fan from the Burgh. I stayed up to follow the game and wanted to let you know that even a division rival thinks the Pirates got hosed there.
I know it doesn’t help much, but thought I’d send along my support. I hope you all win the division this year (we sure ain’t winning it).
"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes..."
Why thank you. Wish your Cubs could have kept the Brewers at bay last night though.
(In regards to your signature.)
Sometimes, there’s a dude. . .
In regards to the Brewers: You and me both.
(In regards to your comment on my signature)
Thanks. It’s good to know he’s out there, taking ’er easy for all us sinners.
"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes..."
You and I could go back and forth all day with this.
by AlexStitch on Jul 27, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Neyer
allows for the possibility that there may have been “an eighth of an inch” between the mitt and Lugo’s leg. I call bullshit.
If we’re parsing to that degree, how can we ever be sure of anything? What if one-eighth of an inch of the ball grazed the foul pole on it’s way into foul territory? What if a fastball grazed one-eighth-inch of the batter’s arm, but not enough to make the HPB call obvious?
It just seems like we’re getting into theoretical physics here. Obviously with objects moving at speed, there’s no way ANYONE’s eyes could determine the difference of an eighth of an inch. So maybe we should just go with the 99% of available evidence which seems to indicate that he was tagged — not to mention the 99% of viewers who think the call was blown.
Not to mention how difficult it would be for Meals to discern 1/8 of an inch at game speed. I understand his larger point (I still disagree), but not how he presented it.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe Torre's statement on the tagged
http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/07/27/2333712/mlb-issues-statement-on-tuesdays.html
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
At least they admitted the call was wrong.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 27, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, an apology from the league does not make me feel any better. Mike Pereira apologizing for the refs not enforcing the Brady Rule in the 2009 NFC Championship Game pissed me off. Joe Torre apologizing for Meals pisses me off.
I want Jerry Meals to apologize like Jim Joyce did last year. Acknowledge you messed up the call, don’t defend yourself like you’re someone with eagle vision that can discern that McKenry missed Lugo by 1/8 of an inch. We all make mistakes in our day to day jobs. Man up.
Rant over.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Jul 27, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone else look at the #JerryMealsSaysItsSafe...
series of tweets. Pretty funny and worth checking out. Joel Hanrahan piped in with the end game of tweets. It was something like:
“Jerry Meals would love the #JerryMealsSaysItsSafe tweets but he doesn’t see #tags!”
Game over man, game over!
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bucs Dugout
Related FanShots on Bucs Dugout
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
