Braves 2, Pirates 1
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 28, 2011 2:06 AM EDT
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This was pretty much the typical story for the Pirates, who got a great performance from their pitching staff (Paul Maholm was brilliant in this one) but couldn't do much offensively. They lost 2-1 as Chris Leroux - who recently replaced Chase D'Arnaud on the 25-man roster in a move designed to help the Pirates' bullpen recover after the 19-inning debacle on Tuesday - allowed three singles in the tenth.
The Pirates got a fair number of opportunities in the early innings, but couldn't cash in on them. They got two men aboard in the first, but Pedro Alvarez struck out to end it. They got Steve Pearce to second with no outs in the second inning thanks to an error by Wilkin Ramirez, but the bottom of the order went down easily after that. In the third, Xavier Paul led off with a single but got gunned down at second. In the fourth, the Pirates got men on first and third with one out, but Brandon Wood's fly ball to left was a little bit shallow, and Alvarez got nailed on a close play at the plate.
In the sixth, the Bucs picked up a run on Garrett Jones' solo homer and then Neil Walker singled. But he too got caught stealing, which turned out to be a shame, because Alvarez doubled later in the inning. In the seventh, Wood walked to lead off the inning, but then Eric Fryer couldn't lay down a sacrifice and ended up striking out. Then Maholm came up and bunted into a double play, as he popped it up and Jair Jurrjens alertly let it fall before throwing to second. That's an awful lot of chances, and specifically a lot of leadoff hitters reaching and then no one cashing them in.
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The more the PIrates’ offense meekly flails about, the more baserunning hijinks the team seems to engage in in an effort to manufacture runs… and the more baserunning hijinks the team engages in, the more baserunners get wiped out, leading to more meek flailing about of the offense…
or in other words: STOP RUNNING INTO OUTS! (and perhaps find a guy or two who can hit!)
by Captain Easychord on Jul 28, 2011 2:19 AM EDT reply actions
Maybe it's time...
for Hurdle to abandon the idea of bunting. It would be different if we had players that could do it well…but we don’t.
by Thunder on Jul 28, 2011 2:23 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Where is the good old all-bunts-are-bad tag when you need it …
by From France on Jul 28, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
the worst of the damage
came on pitchouts, not bunts. atlanta sniffed out the squeeze on tuesday and the hit and run last night. the batter never had a chance to get a bunt down.
that said, i’m not sure why fryer was bunting with maholm on deck last night.
they were going to pinch hit for Maholm if Fryer succeeded... he didnt.
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
doesnt matter if it was
if the bunt went successfully, maholm could still be taken out of the game
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
They need to either
Change the signs or stop making it so obvious that they’re going to be doing something. They also pitched out on that hit and run where Walker managed to put the ball in play anyway. The Braves either know the signs, they’re doing something to make it obvious that something’s on, or they’re just way too predictable.
They should stop
using those dedicated “runner in motion” helmets. Sure, they look cool, but they’re ultimately counterproductive.
Not to Pile On but
The 7th inning was a total disaster. I would have been fine with Maholm staying in and just dealing with him hitting if that came up. Just seemed like there was no plan as to what was trying to be accomplished. Wood walks. I figured they would just let Fryer hit, but they chose to sacrifice. Fryer was a total CF trying to bunt. I understand that, but I am assuming a PH was coming for Maholm if the bunt was successful. Why would they not PH with one out and Wood on 1st if they were going to PH after a successful bunt?
I don’t understand.
Maholm was a stud, great start. However, no excuse for not running to 1st on a pop up bunt.
If Resop, Veres, Watson and Hanrahan were all options, CH should have just let Fryer hit and dealt with the pitchers spot when it came up.
Still not sure
why you wouldn’t bring in Hanrahan with the bases loaded in the 10th, see if he could get out of it and worry about who was going to pitch the 11th if there was an 11th inning. We haven’t used one of our best pitchers for two straight, crucial, close games and that seems absurd.
I mean, I kind of get why you wouldn’t use him in the 19-inning game, but what the hell, let him try to blow Ross away and take your chances with who’s up next.
Maybe I’m overthinking, because it’s pretty clear we could have played 30 innings both nights and never scored again.
Totally agree
A month or so ago when Hurdle never used Hanny in an extra inning game, I argued that it makes plenty of sense to hold out your closer for any given extra inning, but he needs to go in as soon as the reliever you do send out gets in trouble.
Incidentally, my assumption in the 19 inning game is that Hurdle was letting No Relation pitch to the relief pitcher with 3 career PAs, and would reassess from there, which makes sense to me. If you can’t trust McCutchen there, he shouldn’t pitch to anyone, in any situation. But bases loaded and a real (if not great) hitter up? Gotta go with your best.
by JRoth95 on Jul 28, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
While the offense is mainly to blame here, I’m really glad Hurdle went with our worst option out of the pen for the 10th inning instead of our best. Again.
Yes, really. We aren’t the only ones complaining about it, either — lots of baseball folk are curious why Hanrahan sat both nights.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
He's saving him so he'll have an extra pitcher to mop up today
if KC gets lit up again.
by WestCoastBuc on Jul 28, 2011 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
lots of baseball folk are curious why Hanrahan sat both nights.
Are they? That’s a little surprising because I think it’s standard procedure to not use your closer in a tie game on the road. Not that I agree with it, but that is pretty much the conventional wisdom.
pretty much the conventional wisdom.
I agree that its the convention, but wisdom has little to do with it.
by Wizard of Woz on Jul 28, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it really amazes me that we all KNOW so much more about baseball than guys who actually make a living at it
yes, sarcasm… dripping, gooey ooey sarcasm, with sprinkles
Baseball guys know a TON of stuff that we don't...
But by no means does that mean that they know everything, that they are always right, or that they can’t be questioned. Some of us here on the interwebs actually make a living out of analyzing data, so both parties can learn a lot from one another.
Yeah
Making a living at something and being good at something are two different things.
It's not like in-game management is that difficult
There are a lot of tough decisions, sure, but I’d trust a lot of people on this board to make them. I also would trust guys like Rob Neyer and all of the other baseball writers out there who were criticizing Hanrahan last night.
But by all means, we should just defer to those in positions of power (just like John Russell, Jim Tracy, Cam Bonifay and Dave Littlefield were…).
im sorry, but anyone on here who thinks their decision making is better than whomever is running the team is either egotistical or just flat out jealous.
that comment is meant for ME too, so dont get bent out of shape about it.
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think anybody here thinks they could do a better job of managing the team than Hurdle, just saying that they don’t agree with his decision to not use our best reliever in two-straight extra innings losses.
by et_pitt on Jul 28, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here's the thing you don't address
People in these positions of power aren’t there forever. They aren’t lifetime appointments. When John Russell was manager and Joe Kerrigan was screwing up our pitchers, a lot of people questioned what they were doing. Were they wrong then, but right now? How does that work? Does making a decision in a position of power just automatically make you right, until you’re fired, at which point you’re wrong?
but were YOU the one who fired Kerrigan? or Russell?
i know just as much about running this team as everyone else here, which is diddlysquat…
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Would you say Ulysses Grant had more knowledge about running the country than the common man?
And even then, we’re talking about bad decisions at a case-by-case basis. Hurdle seems a good motivator, which no one is arguing. His pen handling just needs a bit of work. Getting a paycheck doesn’t mean he’s correct in every one of his decisions.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
with that reasoning, i should be able to criticize your programming abilities...
even though i have no idea how your profession is run. i have no right to tell you your business unless i worked with you or were your superior.
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
but if you identified a flaw in Rye's programming
then you’d absolutely be in the right to criticize/tell him.
Lots of times people who are knee-deep in any industry miss obvious ideas because “that’s the way things are.” That’s why huge companies bring in consultants to look for new opportunities that their staff might have overlooked.
by Garrett122 on Jul 28, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and our FO has plenty of consultants to help with their decisions. Hurdle has "consultants" in his dugout.
i have no right to criticize Rye’s job/business. even if i found his programming to be wrong. its out of my element.
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
actually, you'd probably be helping
I mean, I’m a musician, but I don’t claim to know everything about music and performance
If you came to a show of mine, and identified a way that we could improve the sound, or mix the levels better, or draw more fans, I’d be grateful for the input, even if you’ve never taken a music class in your life.
Not saying that Hurdle is reading BD or anything, but just that there certainly is a precedent for non-experts to find solutions.
Actually, part of being a programmer is sucking up pride when people dissect ones code. If you find a flaw and point it out, I fix that flaw and admit my mistake. I personally don’t care where that source of help comes from.
If it were bowling, though…fuck all y’all, I’ll fix it myself :-P
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Bowling
That may have just been a random joke that you threw in at the end, but out of curiosity… are you a serious bowler?
by bruinbowler on Jul 28, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Congrats on the 279 – that’s way better than the vast majority of the population. I just thought there was a chance that we could have bumped into each other at some point in the past if you bowled tournaments, etc. Never mind…
by bruinbowler on Jul 28, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That's like
giving up a perfect game on an infield hit. With a blown call at first. Or something.
I had a 290...
I was 19… only had a 627 set… Don’t ask… I last bowled when I was 22 and averaged like 210… Bowling is fun with beer!
by Joey Mooney on Jul 28, 2011 3:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I gave it a go on the national tour for a couple years, but couldn’t keep up with the best out there. I did pretty well in the Western PBA regionals, though – I always compare the regional tour to AAA in baseball, so I guess I was a AAAA player like Bowker…
I have to say that Erie, PA was the best tour stop every year. They love their bowling in Erie!
Of course I didn't fire them
I didn’t fire Dave Littlefield either, but I knew he was crappy at his job and complained accordingly.
Maybe you know diddlysquat about running the team, but I think a lot of people here know more than that. I’m not saying they could run the team on their own, have more than one good idea or could just tell when something is terribly wrong, but they’ve watched and studied baseball for years. To say their opinion is invalid because they have a job not in baseball seems subservient to those in power and disrespectful to the intelligent posters here.
how is it disrespectful?
im not insulting anyone as a person, nor their familier or even their profession. im just stating a fact: none of us really know what the hell we are talking about when it comes to running a baseball franchise. and thats not an insult.
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Any time someone criticizes Hurdle or Huntington
Your immediate response is always a short blurb along the lines of “Yeah, like you know what you’re talking about,” similar to this comment: http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/7/28/2299695/braves-2-pirates-1#73011226 How is that comment not disrespectful to Wizard of Woz?
And I will contest that people here don’t know anything about running a major league franchise. We’ve read books, insightful blogs from across the league and watched plenty of baseball. I’m not saying anyone here could be manager or general manager of a major league team, but I do think many people here can tell what’s right and wrong from seeing things done poorly and correctly for years and years.
first of all, that post wasnt meant for WOZ, it just happened to be typed under a statement of his.
second, i dont think im coming off as being better or more knowledgable than anyone else on this blog. in fact, other than a couple of you, everyone else here knows that im full of it, and im pretty sure WOZ knows this as well.
i have never insulted anyone on this site other that the random inappropriate gif or jpeg.
long story short, (too late), i was not disrespecting WOZ, and i believe thats perfectly clear
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
no, you're not coming off as "better or more knowledgeable than anyone else"
but to be fair the “none of us know anything” shtick is getting just a bit old.
by Garrett122 on Jul 28, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
When I first started following this board
I didn’t know much at all about what had gone wrong with the Pirates. There we a lot of criticism of Dave Littlefield going on and I thought like you do – man, these guys are really full of themselves, DL has to know a lot more about what is going on than they do. It didn’t take me too long to learn who was right and who was wrong.
by WestCoastBuc on Jul 28, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know...
I played baseball for a long time and I have been around the game my whole life but I have never been anywhere near the ML game. I think that I am pretty knowledgeable about a good many things and my experience has as much to do with it as my intelligence, my objective outlook and my ability to use statistcal analysis. So if I think that I know more about why bunting is bad than Hurdle because I have had taken my time to read up on several studies for my enjoyment, it may be because I actually do know more than Hurdle on that topic. So now because I said that I feel that I know more than Hurdle, does that make me egotistical? I don’t see why that would make me jealous of Hurdle so I think jealousy can be thrown out. I mean it’s not about me but it is about getting the call right. Since I am right in this situation I believe it’s unfair to call me egotistical. I mean if I am correct I cannot be egotistical since I am right…can I? Me.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
White Angus, you bring up this point all the time . . .
and I know you’re sincere and mean well.
But I’m just curious, do you really think that folks in positions of power or leadership shouldn’t be questioned or criticized?
Should we not question anything that politicians do, just because they know more about government than us?
Should we not say that “Transformers 3” is crap because Michael Bay knows more about making movies than us?
I’m not trying to be snarky here, promise. I’m just curious about your position.
Didn't you mean...
“…I know you’re sincere and mean as well.”?
hehehehhehheheh (Peter Griffin style).
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
garrett, i'm going to answer this and i hope i dont sound snarky doing this...
yes, i believe things should be questioned or criticized when one does not agree with… thats how things get done, or get changed.
but most of the posters on this board come off as being know it alls, and anyone who disagrees with them be damned. i should know, im guilty of this too. look at my anti-Pena rants. i’m probably wrong about his aquisition simply because im in the minority about him.
is the front office/management perfect? hell no. we shouldnt expect them to be. i certainly dont expect them to be. i also try to make sure i dont come off as being a smarty pants, thinking i know more than anyone else about a game we all played as children. just because we played the game doesnt make us knowledgable about it, right Dan Jenkins?
by the way, my posts are not to create any friction in this blog. usually i post exactly the opposite of what someone else says just so i can get some dialogue thrown about.
i dont take the game seriously at all. you never see me in a game thread cussin’ that Hurdle had Cedeno try to steal 1B. im too busy relaxing with a mike’s hard lime in one hand and my woman sitting on the other one.
cheers.
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
that's fair
There’s definitely a line between questioning certain decisions and being a know-it-all.
I guess my thought is that a big reason a site like BD exists in the first place is so fans can congregate and talk/discuss/praise/criticize what the team does, and how the team does it. So sometimes, the whole “They know more than us, so we shouldn’t criticize” line gets a bit tiresome.
Again, to use a non-perfect analogy, it’d be like writing reviews of albums, where each one said “Hey, this guy is a way better guitarist than me, and he’s trying his best, so I give it five stars.”
That being said, I agree that some posters can take it a bit too far with their “This is the ONLY right way” approach.
Anyway, I know you’re not trying to create friction, and I like your posts. Thanks for replying. Cheers.
see! now THIS is fantastic sarcasm... well done.
if angus said it, someone would chime in that Pena had his way with my daughter, but i digress…
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
i think blogs have turned into a place where fans come on to vent
last year, on another blog i wont mention, charlie morton’s dog got death threats from some idiot in Ohio. his DOG!!!!
go back and read a game thread from last season if you can. its extremely hostile, childish and immature. (not everyone, but more than a few).
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m a professionl programmer, and I’m not afraid to admit that some folks know more about programming than me that don’t get paid to do it. Hell, the guy running the video game project that I’m a part of picked up on C# and made a game demo in a week, and he just has a math background (granted, he’s also a genius, so he has that working for him)
Also, Rob Neyer was one of those baseball folks, as was Keith Law. They make a living doing baseball, and are particularly knowledgeable about it.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
the conventional wisdom may be right in this case
I ran some numbers on the leverage of innings in tie games on the road in extras/1-run leads on the road in extras/2-run leads on the road in extras, and it seemed as though the value of a save with a 1-run lead is high enough that it might make sense to wait to lose your closer in a tie game, if he’s only going to pitch one inning (and he’s going to start the inning, and you don’t care about matchups, and things like that). Particularly if your offense is a lot more likely to score 1 run than 2, as seemed to be the case last night. So I think the decision to use Leroux instead of Hanrahan was defensible. My old posts are here and here.
On the other hand, it would definitely have been OK to put Hanrahan in when the runners got on base (they did it in the game where he blew a save by letting Veras’s runner score), and they really should’ve let him pitch two Tuesday instead of keeping McCutchen in for so many innings. Not that that was what lost them Tuesday’s game.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 28, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah,
I forgot to add that to my comment just above this one.
Also
didn’t mean to step on your comment, mats, I just hadn’t read that far yet.
Yes you did.
You’re just vindictive and mean.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 28, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, yeah, I'm that, sure.
Still didn’t mean to step on mats’ comment.
Oh, that's OK
Mine appears to have been hijacked, anyway. Here’s hoping yours does better! :-\
First off I want to apologize...
I made a post out of pure anger and I am sorry. Shame seeing Maholm never get any support and this offense just play flat. I hope Pedro comes around but since being called up he has a better eye at the plate but his defense has looked horrible and I am simply irritated. Doesn’t make my post right but I am sorry.
by Joey Mooney on Jul 28, 2011 7:32 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Second off Pirates need help...
People saying this team isn’t ready to compete is crazy. Any team that can play this close every night out can almost win every night out. I still believe NH makes a big deal and I hope for Pena and an outfielder. Cubbies and Fathers coming up in aug. Good time to make another run!
by Joey Mooney on Jul 28, 2011 7:35 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
The problem is..
This has been a great season, but there isn’t one or two players out there that will make this team a serious contender. The only way to do that this year is to trade your whole system to get rental players and thats not happening. I want Pence. I think he would be excellent is RF and a huge upgrade, he is also signed for a few years where he can contribute in 2012 or 2013. But Upton, Pena aren’t good options right now unless you get them totally dirt cheap and I mean PTBNL or marginal prospect.
Pena should cost the least amount...
Upton will cost a lot Tampa Bay is smart. Pena should be brought in! Lyle has to go. Presley will be back hopefully sooner than later. Pence wants too much. This team is competing and will be in the race til the end. They need to trade off a couple because the 40 man crunch is approaching.
by Joey Mooney on Jul 28, 2011 7:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, but do you want Pena?
Overbay would probably have more homers playing at Wrigley. Pena is at .219 and strikes out alot. His OPS is also pretty low.
His OPS is also pretty low.
Pretty low compared to who? He has an OPS 130 points higher than Overbay, the guy he would replace.
and youre assuming that Pena would keep that OPS above Overbay's.
he could actually improve on the OPS. he could also be worse. judging by Pena’s abilities, i would guess that its the latter.
by white angus on Jul 28, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, right, like you know more than the Cubs about first basemen!
by matskralc on Jul 28, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pence would be the best case acquisition, but the problem is that if Beltran would fetch Zach Wheeler(probably equivalent to our Heredia) then Pence, who is about equal offensively(higher average, less power) and much better defensively, while also coming with 2+ years of control, would fetch at least 3 of our top prospects if the Astros insist on using the Beltran deal for comparative value, and giving up that much is something the Pirates simply cannot afford to do now.
Pena seems to be the most reasonable option, because picking up some of his salary should not be an issue for us, and he brings some solid power to the table. Even if he’s a rental, he likely won’t fetch more than a B-level prospect at best, and we have a high number of B-prospects, so I’m sure that they’d be willing to part with one.
Like I said from the beginning!
We wont get Pence! Phillies will give up Brown for him! I always said we have a better shot at Beltran and we did. Beltran said no to the Pirates. NH made an offer for Beltran and Beltran shot it down. Stros will get Brown and who would the Pirates have to give up to compare to him? Not worth it.
by Joey Mooney on Jul 28, 2011 10:25 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Pence is a slightly better than average player imo. He’s not a great home run hitter and he’s not a great OBP guy. Have you checked out that K-BB ratio? Great hitters don’t have that kind of split. He’s having a fluky good year, but I could see him seriously regressing in August. In fact, he’s hitting .275/.344/.400 over the past month. Pass.
Minors
I love the minor leagues where fundamentals and team play matter even if you are a top prospect.
Yinzers uber alles
Your help urgently needed
Kamerion Wimbley is the truth
by Raybin on Jul 28, 2011 9:17 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
So is Hurdle getting his signs stolen?
I’ve see a lot of this series and I recall 3 pitchouts by Atl and in each instance Hurdle had a play on. Maybe it’s just that great minds think alike?
Or
if you hew precisely to “conventional wisdom”, it’s easy to predict what you’re going to do.
The one that started me wondering was the pitch out on Walker's Hit and run play
with Jones at first. Maybe my understanding of conventional wisdom is just not up to par.
by WestCoastBuc on Jul 28, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
As hellish and horrific as the last two nights have been
if we win tonight (somehow), we split a series with a great team.
The Pittsburgh Pirates or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Loss
Good point
Plus, the Pirates are two runs from being one game to sweep the series.
A loss today (Thursday) would hurt, but a win would help us stay in the race. Already a 1.5 games back.
Unfortunately
I think the Wild Card isn’t an option for us. It’s the Division or bust…
The Pittsburgh Pirates or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Loss
by phillybucco on Jul 28, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
With both Atlanta and Philly hot on one anothers heels
it’s a pretty good bet that whoever places second in that division takes the Wildcard. Only way the Bucs get a ticket is if they steal it from Milwaukee and St Louis.
but if the Bucs had won those two games
they’d only be 4.5 back of Atlanta in the Wild Card standings. That’s not insurmountable.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 28, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought it would have been 2.5 back
Pretty sure we were 4.5 back after Monday’s win.
by WestCoastBuc on Jul 28, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
right, I'm dumb
I was thinking that if we’d beat Atlanta twice, we’d have made up two games on them, but since we lost two games on them instead it’s actually a four-game swing.
Anyway, this makes CO_Bucs even more right — if we’d won those two games the wild card would’ve been a possibility, now it’s probably division or bust.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 28, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I said before this series
We need to forget about the division standings for a little while. We’re playing the two best teams in the league (depending on how you feel about SF) while our opponents are feasting on weaker clubs.
If we can get 2 wins out of the next four games, I’m gonna be thrilled. 3 for 7 against Atlanta and Philly is fine.
No Hanrahan
Is there anyone here who thinks putting Hanrahan in that situation in the 10th gives us a worse chance to win the game? The way I see it bringing in Hanrahan would give us the best chance to get out of that inning and therefore should have been used. I know that if this would have been another long one we would have been screwed cause I think Hurdle wanted to leave Leroux as long as possible. But hopefully our inept offense could put up more than one run in the past 26 innings. I’m just glad we only lost 2 games by scoring that few runs in basically 3 innings worth of games instead of actually losing 3 games!
by nagihcimwolves50 on Jul 28, 2011 11:32 AM EDT reply actions
The offense is definitely the #1 reason we lost both games. That said, Joel should have started the 10th inning. It was the top of the order. It’s never a good idea to lose with your 7th-best reliever when your top reliever is available.
this
if there are any hitters you want your relief ace to take care of, it’s the guys atlanta was sending up in the 10th/11th… if hanrahan is able to go two innings and (say) take care of the next six hitters, that leaves the bottom of the order as a starting place for leroux… seems to be a much better allocation of the bullpen innings… I mean sure, the offense probably doesn’t score if they play into the 19th again, but you have to give them the best chance to meet a little good fortune, no?
by Captain Easychord on Jul 28, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
If our offense was better
I think I’d be more pissed about not seeing Hanrahan. I’d rather not go down the rabbit hole that is started by “If our offense was better”, but generally our offense is so bad that I doubt making different decisions with the bullpen will help us. Go to extra innings against the Braves two nights in a row – your offense has to do better than 4 runs combined.
Atlanta didn’t do much better, but they did better by two runs, which is enough.
And I know this is a bit of a stretch,
but I feel the “should’ve put Hanrahan in” argument is akin to reshuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. And I by no means think these losses are even close to being Titanic in proportion, but, you get the point.
Hitting’s the hole in the hull, so why focus on which deck chair to throw onto the mound?
The seating on the titanic could have determined who got life jackets though?
You just got mind fu*ked
by nagihcimwolves50 on Jul 28, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Lyle Overbay guarantees that no one gets life jackets.
:)
by mattygabe on Jul 28, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lyle gave one life jacket to Ciriaco
threw the rest overboard then started hitting weak grounders into the ship doing little to no damage
by nagihcimwolves50 on Jul 28, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Actually...
…what sank the Titanic was not one major hole but a series of six small slits in the hull, as determined by divers and scientists using sound waves to probe the wreckage.
Hitting is one of the slits, but there are others that are going to contribute just as much to the Pirates’ ship going down.
Hey hey hey
Don’t interject your facts here, pal. No room for that.
Terribly sorry about that.
On second thought, I actually believe it wasn’t an iceberg at all that put the holes in the Titanic but rather a well-organized and surly band of merfolk riding narwhals with a grudge against air-breathing surface dwellers presumptuous to claim a ship had been built that couldn’t be sunk; they were simply testing that theory.
I see the light; wild assumptions and baseless speculation is absolutely preferable to those stupid fact things.
by Bishop1973 on Jul 28, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like where your head is at.
+1 good sir.
Teams usually use their best relievers in high leverage situation
… except the closer who can ONLY be used in save situation (which is counter intuitive).
Extra inning is by definition an high leverage situation. Why keep your closer on the bench for a potential save opportunity that may not come at all.
I think Hanrahan should have been called to pitch the 10th and the 11th. That would have given 1 or 2 more chances to our offense.
My dad's "awesome" theory:
“We’re not pitching Hanrahan because we’re about to use him in a trade.”
Um…
The Pittsburgh Pirates or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Loss
I lol'd.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 28, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
All in all, this has been an encouraging series.
The Braves are an elite team, and the Pirates, barring some uncharacteristically Bad News Bears-type mistakes and umpiring, could easily be 3-0 against them in this series.
Hurdle’s idiocy is another matter, but they’ve played the Braves dead even.
Correia wins tonight.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
i agree partly
it has been a good series, but gosh, we need more offense. I’d be more pissed about not putting hanrahan in if I really thought we could score. We can’t Runs are like things that suddenly happen, but if we give them back, its over, man!
Doesnt mean Hurdle shouldn’t have put hanny in, he really shoulda, just saying i still dont think we’d have won
Manager's job
I understand what you are saying but isn’t it the managers job to give us the best chance to win? Hanrahan gives us a better chance to win in that inning and I think it would be significant enough where that should have been the executed move.
by nagihcimwolves50 on Jul 28, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree
Hanrahan should absolutely have been in the game before Leroux. Esp once it got past 9 innings.
I was simply making a separate point about how the offense inspires no confidence.
Hurdle needs to get around the psychological block of “closer role.” Hanrahan is arguably the best relief pitcher in baseball; he wouldn’t spontaneously combust upon being asked to pitch in a high-leverage non-save situation.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
by Suffering Buc on Jul 28, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn't so odd
Even if you disagree with the reasoning for saving him on the road (which I admit is very debatable), you basically have to use your best reliever in the ninth in a tie game at home. At that point, if the closer doesn’t pitch in a tie game, he won’t pitch at all, since any win will be a walk-off — there are no save situations possible. You might as well use your closer in the ninth, since that’s the inning you know will happen.
Even the most hidebound traditional manager won’t save their closer for a save situation in a tie game at home, because there won’t be a save situation.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 28, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
well, sure
but that seems like the easiest hurdle to overcome. I mean, if you don’t pitch him and you lose, he’s never going to pitch here either.
Agreed...
there have been times in this series where I wasn’t even excited that our pen held the Braves because the due up for the bucs was so bad. Not a good feeling to have when your starters and pen have pitched the way they have thus far.
Oh I wouldn’t bet on that. Even if Correia pitches lights out, which he hasn’t really done lately, Hurdle might burden him with another lineup that has guys in the top spots sporting sub-.300 on base percentages, bunt his best players or attempt stealing at the most ill-advised time or find some other way to keep the offense from producing.
I have to say as someone who’s been very supportive of Neal Huntington’s approach to rebuilding up until this off season I’m extremely, EXTREMELY! disappointed in his lack of seriousness in trying to get some life into the offense. I’m resigning myself to the idea now that even if he does make a move between now and Sunday it’s going to be one of the terrible ones being talked about and to late to make a difference at this point.
Some light hitting, no walk right handed outfielder in not going enable them to play catch up with the Cards and Brewers as they head towards their next encounter(s) with the Brewers… much as I hate to say I think the fairytale may be over.
DID WE GIVE UP WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR?
One of the problems with being in an abusive baseball relationship like we’ve all been in for the last 18 years is that we’re so quick to resign ourselves to defeat. It’s not completely unwarranted. But remember, baseball is cyclical, and we were mired in a slump earlier in the season that also looked endless and horrific, and BAM! Next thing you know we were in first place. Now we’re only 1.5 games out of first in the division. 1.5. All it takes is one good night for us and one bad night for the other Cards and Brewers and we’re right back where we were at the beginning of the week (a mere 4 days ago, mind you.)
There’s still a LOT of baseball to be played. Hell, look at how drastically the Braves’ season dynamic has changed in just these three games—they’ve lost their stud All-Star catcher AND their future HOF veteran for a while, and they’ve also only managed to eke out a handful of runs in the series. On top of that, they have to deal with the juggernaut Phillies. But I don’t hear Braves fans panicking and jumping off bridges.
What I’m trying to say is that we’re a very scarred fanbase and quick to freak out because in years past, we were always waiting for the one game that sent us into the spiral of futility that would seal the fate of our season. This year, though, we’re in a tight race with a division that has no clear runaway team, and while this brings on an entirely new kind of stress—a kind of stress we’ve not felt in almost two decades—we have to remember that we are where we are right now for a reason, and one series against a team that, on paper, is vastly better than we are cannot define our season or chances of success.
Yes, we need a bat. No, we haven’t made a move yet. But nearly nobody has. There have been exactly two “blockbuster” moves so far this week, and why jump the gun out of sheer panic and desperation when we can still take the next two days to make the best move possible?
Honestly, I was more worried about that series with the Cardinals and the way they clobbered us for two of three than I am about the Braves. I’m actually excited for the Phillies series, because what’s more fun than taking on the best of the best?
I guess what I’m trying to say is that we’re already playing with house money, so there’s no reason to give up just yet… We’re not a championship ball club yet, but if this is a glimpse of what to expect in the near future, I’ve never been more excited to be a Pirates fan.
The Pittsburgh Pirates or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Loss
Me too!
I’m extremely, EXTREMELY! disappointed in his lack of seriousness in trying to get some life into the offense.
I wish he would be more serious about making trades instead of calling all of the other GMs and asking them if their refrigerator is running while giggling like a 13-year old girl in the same room as Justin Bieber. Too much joking around, I tell you.
Seriously though, unless you are sitting in his office with him, how do you know he is not being SERIOUS about trying to get some life into the offense? I think you are confusing lack of results with lack of effort. It’s true that he hasn’t made a move yet, but are you absolutely certain it’s because he has not been doing his due diligence and not that the other teams either aren’t interested in dealing or open every conversation with, “hey, about that Taillon kid?”
I can imagine this conversation
“Is your Hanley Ramirez running?”
“No.”
“Wanna trade him for Lyle Overbay?”
CLICK
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jul 28, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hurdle might burden him with another lineup that has guys in the top spots sporting sub-.300 on base percentages
Not that I think Hurdle’s a lineup genius or anything, but you kind of have to work with the roster you’re given, y’know?
If Hurdle had a Craig Wilson rotting on the bench, that’d be something else entirely, but he doesn’t, so it isn’t.
I’m extremely, EXTREMELY! disappointed in his lack of seriousness in trying to get some life into the offense.
Not being snarky: Can you give us an example of a move that you would consider to be “serious”, so that we know exactly what you’re talking about?
I have to say as someone who’s been very supportive of Neal Huntington’s approach to rebuilding up until this off season I’m extremely, EXTREMELY! disappointed in his lack of seriousness in trying to get some life into the offense.
So let’s get this straight . . . you’re very supportive, yet you’ve already decided that with three days left until the deadline, he’s failed. Despite the fact that most deals happen at the last minute. I don’t think “supportive” means what you think it means.
Tonight’s LINEUP at ATL, 7:10 p.m. ET (ROOT SPORTS, FM Newstalk 104.7, Pirates Radio Network, MLB.TV): Paul – LF, Jones – RF, McCutchen – CF, Walker – 2B, Alvarez – 3B, Overbay – 1B, Cedeno – SS, McKenry – C, Correia – P.
The Pittsburgh Pirates or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Loss
KC gives up 2 run homeruns to Heyward and Nate, good guys lose 6-4. We really needed one of those last two
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